Meeting Record

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Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot ←

Dave Cramer: "As we talk about portable web publications and browser-friendly formats, epub 3.1... I decided to make samples..." ←

...: "I wanted to see if I could build a tiny reading system around some of these ideas to see how they work on the wild web. The cool stuff is do to jake - who put the service workers demo site after he talked to us at TPAC. I took his code and used it to build this little website [link above] so it's purely an experiment in 'can we make a web-friendly thing work in a browser'" ←

Dave Cramer: https://dauwhe.github.io/epub-zero/acme-publishing/MobyDick/html/c001.html ←

Peter Krautzberger: it's going to be hard to go offline to show the cool stuff though. ←

Peter Krautzberger: if you're on Chrome, you could disable the connection for that tab in the developer console (under Network => Throttling) ←

...: " ... Begins reading moby dick... Loads nav file for that book... Button in the corner 'make worky offline' it will 'offlinify' and locally cache everything that goes with the book for offline reading. When complete it says 'offlinification complete'!!! Link to a little Javascript function that build a header of prev/next navigation for chapters" ←

...: " ... Arrow keys are mapped to next/previous ... Styling of background ... Can also download in a zip-like format ... " ←

...: "he built another page that lets you upload one of those zip files and read them. Peter put in a journal article here that has lots of math and such. MathJax is in there to render all the mathematics." ←

Peter Krautzberger: not really published but an introductory note by a high-profile mathematician (source is CC-by on the arXiv) ←

Ivan Herman: "Looking into jake's code it looks at a zip file, can it work on a zip file and not just a directory?" ←

Dave Cramer: "This is jake's thing - that I could take one of the files I previously downloaded. " ←

Ivan Herman: "The other question is more, on longer term, to understand the architecture - if my understanding is correct, the impression I have is that you have to add the contents, a reference to a javascript file (which does the service worker)... Is there a way somehow that the content does not have to include this reference." ←

Tzviya Siegman: "Jake said he'd be happy to answer questions, so we can ask him as well." ←

Ivan Herman: "It's important, as we should be able to build independently of the content" ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Daniel' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Daniel Weck Daniel Schwabe . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Daniel: "You do not have to download the entire zip - with readium we stream the zip and deal with it on the fly" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ivan Herman: "At the moment, the example code that Jake gave us is such that ... the bootstrapping proceedure for a book is a reference to a script in the book itself. To have the whole mechanism working itself, the bootstrapping goes through modifying the content. What you'd like to have is that it can be bootstrapped by something else in the client. Basically can it be loaded without modifying the [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Dave Cramer: "I was on the queue to change the direction of the conversation. A major goal here is to figure out how to make a file format. Not so much the details of how to get the service workers going. I just wanted to show that it at least works for some of our usecases. More interestingly, what implications does this have for the structure of the documents we want." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ivan Herman: "The goal is that the same content that it can be displayed in a traditional way. What that would require is that the bootstrapping should not go through the content." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "Lets use the email list to continue this discussion [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: "It is not yet published... The background is that MathJax itself is pretty old. In 2010 was version 1.0 and design started a year before that. We've been facing a problem that we need to revamp the internals, but the internal plumbing hasn't changed much. We're actually at a place where we can finally re-do some of the plumbing to make it better. For us it is the right time to consider the ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: inner workings. Not having to support legacy browsers, etc." ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "One of the key considerations for us is that MathJax itself is not a single-organization, it's a community driven effort supported by publishers, societies, startups, etc. Originally in 2009 and 2010 was to help move math. Browsers weren't supporting it because no one was using it, etc... About 5 years later it hasn't really moved." ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "We considered a couple different paths and we reached out to get feedback and eventually decided to go with one of them. A) do we hold on to this goal to push forward with the native goal of MathML. Or do we want to be a polyfill in the modern land - where a developer can just drop things in." ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "Then we ran into the problem that it doesn't simplify things for us - we ran into performance issues as well. The first idea was that web-components isn't done yet and doesn't have full backing from the browsers... We had alot of performance issues, inconsistency issues, and technology bets. The alternative is to embrace the progress we've made in the past two years and perfecting a CSS ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "We're going to work on making a CSS picture-perfect display of MathML - so make things better because of this. We also see that the CSS side - is that CSS has progressed enormously. Things are much more stable and we can do them much better than we could do before. " ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "You could say that instead of building a polyfill, we're trying to build a CSS rendering of math. We want to push the standards to work for us as well. Doing things with grid layout is a good place to start, and it's the direction we're working towards." ←

Deborah Kaplan: "I love the idea about native CSS for math. My biggest concern is that whenever I'm talking to someone about switching to MathML, They always say: 'the accessibility has never been very good.' From the publisher, an image is the best for everything except accessibility, the publishers tend to go for images. " [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "As the move towards the new way, will there be a priority of working with screen-reader makers to make it good enough for accessibility." ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Krautzberger Peter Linss . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: "Yes, it's a huge issue and something. If we want to improve CSS, more than anything we want to have progress on the accessibility side. People seem to think MathML solves accessibility - but it's not as good as we hope. That impression goes back to when mathPlayer was the solution, but it's not there. You have crappy in voiceover, in chromevox, etc..." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "We obviously think MathML is the right step to solving that problem, but the standard needs to improve on that end. It's something that any other approach needs to solve." ←

Ivan Herman: "Whether the mapping and usage of CSS/HTML is it done on the client side or the server size? How is MathML appearing on the client side - if at all." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Krautzberger Peter Linss . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: "One of the changes for our perspective, is considering server-side rendering as a first-class output. One advantage (which is already happening) is that you can now generate the CSS layout on the server, the SVG output can also be generated on the server. But how can you put the MathML out there - well, you don't you replace it." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "That was the first idea of doing a polyfill - hide all the output and hope one-day it has a rendering. But we're embracing the idea that we won't have the MathML source. We also can do the MathML for a screen reader. We want -for accessibilty - is to have an accessible rendering of the content. The existing way is to split the accessible rendering from the regular - which isn't very ←

Ivan Herman: "You noted you wanted to address the standards side - what should be added/improved/changed from the MathML side to make things smoother. I think it would be really important to have those things clearly described somewhere. If they are, we can try to move ahead and make things happen - but we need that start." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Krautzberger Peter Linss . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: "When i said standards, I was thinking more about CSS and ARIA, not MathML - as they are moving..." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ivan Herman: "MathML can be moved if there is a direction to move it. But we should have a clear documentation as to how you want those orgs to move." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Krautzberger Peter Linss . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: "There won't be much detail in the white paper - as it's too high detail." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "We've talked ARIA a few times here, but if we're moving forward with CSS - which we hope to - I would really love to see you and houdini work on this together." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "We should work on the object model together. If they could all talk to assistive technology at the same time, that would be best. Not sure if we could make a taskforce for Math across the whole W3C, but that'd be great." ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: 010011011010010 010010010010011101 100101 100100101010 1011011001 101010101 ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: 100010100101 10101011011110110 01010111001 110101010101 0101101010 10101001001 1001000 2 ←

Charles LaPierre: "Link to accessibility note above. Have done a WCAG - all seem to be relevant - and did a GAP analysis and came up with the following: Page numbering, drop caps, position/location of text, indication of text, nouns, layouts, influences, deeply nested headings, semantic list-heads, skipability, escapability, diagram models, appendix, and also needed but being addressed: notes & footnotes [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "We were hoping to have the meat of the note done by end of year, then have it wordsmithed and ready by early spring next year" ←

Ivan Herman: "Practical thing, the best way of doing it is that we issue a draft of a note, which we can use to issue the draft export for the working group of WCAG, then we can have the final note." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Charles LaPierre: "When would we do that draft?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ivan Herman: "When you think it's good enough for publishing. Publishing a draft is very easy." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Deborah Kaplan: "The specifics of how we were planning on doing it is to get to a point where we have something ready, then go to ivan and ask what to do. It's on our todo list. 'we have this draft, now what do we do?'" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "Last 2 items are admin" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "There has been a request to a time change for meeting. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ivan Herman: "It's unpleasant, but the co-chair is in Europe." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown Nick: "Crazy idea - staggering meeetings - have alternative weeks late" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "Alternating would be difficult." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown Tzivya: "Would people be interested in switching to a different day of the week? Different hour?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "We'll poll people via e-mail to figure out a good time" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: 21st is a maybe, 28th is a no. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown Tzivya: "All else on, but the 28th of December is a no" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Deborah Kaplan: "I understand how difficult it is to schedule - we've tried to solve this on accessibility. It is an ongoing problem of diversity in the W3C and it would be great if we could do something to be part of the solution." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ivan Herman: "Deborah, there is an experiment - that wasn't terribly successful - we had india colleagues who tried to set up an alternate timezone call where an expert of that region would try to discuss things with that interest group - so the results of that might be good" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Charles, LaPierre, Dave_Cramer, Deborah_Kaplan, astearns, Ivan, LiamQuin, Peter, Krautzberger., TzviyaSiegman, Ben_De_Meester, Luc, ←

Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

Minutes of 30 November 2015

1. Basic overview of service-worker based publishing.

2. MathJax green/white/light-green paper

3. Accessibility TF

4. Time of Meeting