Meeting Record

There are some format problems with the chatlog. Please correct them and reload this page. They are labeled on this page in a red box, like this message.

It may be helpful to

Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Ben De Meester Ben Holden-Crowther . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Krautzberger Peter Linss . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

... first) missing pieces to get from document to displaying stuff in a viewport / page. ←

... also a sense from browser vendors that pagination is more an application feature, not platform feature. ←

... esp. one specific vendor took this position despite having region etc in their engine. ←

Dave Cramer: recurring theme: interests of people who don't work for browsers seem different to those of people at browsers cos ←

Paul Belfanti: And if other platform developers jumped off the George Washington Bridge, would they do that too? ←

... browser vendors quite different as compared to present non-browser folks. ←

Bill Kasdorf: curious re interests from browser vs non-browsers. Maybe some more info? How many non-browser devs etc. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

... agreement about spec is sketchy so far and does little for fragmentation, hence pagination ←

Dave Cramer: agreed. Example from Johannes Wilm, mentioning repeatedly how detecting fragmentation would make his work infinitely simpler. ←

Bill Kasdorf: are fragments seen as things that are created dynamically during rendering or inherent in the structure of the document? ←

Markus Gylling: we noted a while back that we didn't even know which part will fix pagination (Houdini, existing modules,s omething else). ←

... pagination split between overflow spec and not-yet-started spec descirbed above. ←

... on the implementation side, we'll be depending on Houdini to give us the tools to do this ourselves. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Alan: we talked explicitly about what's in layout and what's done as API ←

... the layout part will probably solve the first 70%. Then Houdini for the rest. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Dave Cramer: will give us base pagination. But not more complex like side-by-side, footnotes etc. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

... maybe subgroups should have calls/meetings to work on such items to hash this out far enough to bring it back to the CSSWG. ←

... that way main group has less noise, and interested people can push things forward. ←

Ivan Herman: coming back to "browser vendors regard pagination as application feature". So their view is this should be done via Houdini? ←

Ivan Herman: so we need to agree on library/common work. How do we create a library? ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Nick: fully worth showing a proof of concept. But it's already out there in most reading systems. ←

Ivan Herman: right. In the future, some of the features might be taken up by the browser, some of them better be done via Houdini. So in that new environment, let's look for a new basis. ←

Dave Cramer: we should get Readium folks to talk to implementors to provide feedback on APIs etc. ←

Brady Duga: +1 to Ivan. We should reach out to implementors such as Readium. ←

... right now we have implementations but if you ask implementors, you'll find they would like (very much) to have a better solution. ←

Chris Lilley: I didn't see it as about mandate but about features mixed together. ←

... feedback regarding math. Requirements so complex that they need to be addressed specifically. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Alan: enabling some of the broader/fuzzier items, it would help if people could go through the schedule and plan dial-in as much as possible. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Alan: often the need is acknowledged. E.g., footnote is clear but without pagination it's not possible to discus. ←

Tzviya Siegman: maybe a little collaboration on how approach the agenda will help. ←

... e.g., CSS borders are not very powerful right now. the API could help a lot. ←

... similarly acknowledgement for font API (even if implementation not happening soon). ←

Ivan Herman: not sure how to convince browser vendors that to more seriously consider use cases from this community. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Heather' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Heather Flanagan Heather Reid . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Scribe problem: the name 'Alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Alan: people read in browsers. Scrolling is dominant. People read paginated in reading systems. We argue that this is a standard way of reading. Browsers take the view: the web developer should do the heavy lifting. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Heather' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Heather Flanagan Heather Reid . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Alan Stearns: what I was trying to get across that pagination is a recognized need, but that most browsers don't see enough need to justify the implementation/standardization costs ←

Jeff Xu: browser-based application. Like Chrome is an application using Chromium. ←

Ivan Herman: as a user, I should not be forced to import a special tool (plugin etc) to have this facility. ←

Dave Cramer: also many ebook reading system out there. Part of our mission is to make the more interoperable. ←

Chris Lilley: I disagree, lots of people make code and let others ride on it ←

Unknown Nick: from a business perspective: pagination is something all books need. Pushback: no-one wants to create code that others will benefit from. ←

... so if we can make pagination a generic feature, to have compatible implementations, will help us drive this forward. ←

Ivan Herman: have their been usability studies on reading long form (e.g., thousands of pages) is pagination better compared to scrollable reading. ←

Bill Kasdorf: it's even true of short document like journal articles, which are overwhelmingly preferred in paginated form (which now means PDFs not HTML are what are overwhelmingly used even when both are available. ←

Tzviya Siegman: but is it for real reasons? To turn around: many reading systems have introduced scrolling view ←

Tzviya Siegman: but is it about pagination or page numbers or other factors? ←

Peter Krautzberger: caution: remember studyt about negative effects from reading system UIs (voiding pagination). ←

Karen Myers: also growing interest from other regions in the world. Japan, China, Latin America. We can improve onboarding. ←

Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

Minutes of 31 August 2015