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DPUB IG F2F meeting - second day, 2014-10-31

Minutes of 31 October 2014

Present
Markus Gylling
Chair
Markus Gylling
Scribe
Brady Duga, Unknown dauwhe, Unknown bjdmeest, Unknown brady_duga
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics

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15:25:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc

15:26:27 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, set log public

15:26:29 <ivan> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight

15:27:36 <ivan> Meeting: DPUB IG F2F meeting - second day, 2014-10-31
15:28:00 <ivan> zakim, dial seattle

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial seattle

15:28:00 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is

15:28:07 <ivan> zakim, this will be dpub

Ivan Herman: zakim, this will be dpub

15:28:08 <Zakim> ok, ivan; I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM scheduled to start 28 minutes ago

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM scheduled to start 28 minutes ago

15:28:13 <ivan> zakim, dial seattle

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial seattle

15:28:13 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

15:28:15 <Zakim> DPUB_IG()11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_IG()11:00AM has now started

15:28:16 <Zakim> +Seattle

Zakim IRC Bot: +Seattle

15:29:22 <ivan> scribenick: brady_duga

(Scribe set to Brady Duga)

15:29:49 <ivan> Topic: STEM

1. STEM

15:30:02 <pkra> be right there....

Peter Krautzberger: be right there....

15:30:40 <dauwhe> Zakim, how are you?

Dave Cramer: Zakim, how are you?

15:30:40 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dauwhe.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, dauwhe.

15:30:58 <Zakim> +pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra

15:31:04 <dauwhe> Zakim, your personality leaves something to be desired.

Dave Cramer: Zakim, your personality leaves something to be desired.

15:31:04 <Zakim> I don't understand you, dauwhe

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand you, dauwhe

15:33:22 <Zakim> +madi

Zakim IRC Bot: +madi

15:33:36 <ivan_> Present+ Madi_Solomon

Ivan Herman: Present+ Madi_Solomon

15:33:56 <pkra> Krautzberger

Peter Krautzberger: Krautzberger

15:34:08 <pkra> ivan

Peter Krautzberger: ivan

15:34:08 <ivan_> Present+ Peter_Krautzberger

Ivan Herman: Present+ Peter_Krautzberger

15:34:12 <pkra> :-)

Peter Krautzberger: :-)

15:34:21 <mgylling> Present+ Markus_Gylling

Markus Gylling: Present+ Markus_Gylling

15:34:23 <ivan_> Present+ Brady_Duga

Ivan Herman: Present+ Brady_Duga

15:34:29 <ivan_> Present+ Karen_Myers

Ivan Herman: Present+ Karen_Myers

15:34:31 <dauwhe> Present+ Dave_Cramer

Dave Cramer: Present+ Dave_Cramer

15:34:39 <ivan_> Present+ Bill_Kasdorf

Ivan Herman: Present+ Bill_Kasdorf

15:34:47 <ivan_> Present+ Dave_Cramer

Ivan Herman: Present+ Dave_Cramer

15:34:54 <tzviya> chair: tzviya
15:34:54 <ivan_> Present+ Ivan_Herman

Ivan Herman: Present+ Ivan_Herman

15:35:04 <ivan_> Present: Markus_Gylling
15:35:18 <ivan_> Present+ Tzviya_Siegman

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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Tzviya_Siegman

15:35:26 <ivan_> Present+ Deborah_Kaplan

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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Deborah_Kaplan

15:35:37 <ivan_> Present+ Charles_LaPierre

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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Charles_LaPierre

15:35:47 <ivan_> Present+ Tim_Cole

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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Tim_Cole

15:36:17 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai

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Unknown takeshi: Present+ Takeshi_Kanai

15:36:32 <brady_duga> tzviya: no real agenda for STEM, want to bring focus to STEM

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Unknown tzviya: no real agenda for STEM, want to bring focus to STEM [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:37:20 <brady_duga> peter: update - wrapped up all but 1 interview

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Unknown peter: update - wrapped up all but 1 interview [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:37:38 <brady_duga> peter: … talked to 4 or 5 people [various names] …

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Unknown peter: … talked to 4 or 5 people [various names] … [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:38:03 <brady_duga> peter: … very productive, will start on the email interview/questionaire now

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Unknown peter: … very productive, will start on the email interview/questionaire now [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:38:19 <brady_duga> peter: … will set up a meeting of the actual task force

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Unknown peter: … will set up a meeting of the actual task force [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:38:42 <brady_duga> peter: … lots of advanced layout features people are looking for

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Unknown peter: … lots of advanced layout features people are looking for [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:38:47 <ivan_> Present+ Shinyu_Murakami

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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Shinyu_Murakami

15:39:07 <brady_duga> peter: … extremes: epub heavilly adjusts to reader vs advanced layout

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Unknown peter: … extremes: epub heavilly adjusts to reader vs advanced layout [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:39:31 <brady_duga> peter: … surprised that there was very little STEM specific tech that people need and should be standardized

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Unknown peter: … surprised that there was very little STEM specific tech that people need and should be standardized [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:39:54 <brady_duga> peter: … there is math which is ahead of the curve

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Unknown peter: … there is math which is ahead of the curve [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:40:07 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

15:40:18 <brady_duga> peter: … for every else there are people stuck in proprietary tech

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Unknown peter: … for every else there are people stuck in proprietary tech [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:40:30 <brady_duga> peter: … not a lot of knowledge about what is needed to get it in the web

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Unknown peter: … not a lot of knowledge about what is needed to get it in the web [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:40:49 <brady_duga> tzviya: Might just be that people don’t know what is needed

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Unknown tzviya: Might just be that people don’t know what is needed [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:41:29 <brady_duga> tzviya: … maybe people just haven’t explored these issues, or have they tried and given up?

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Unknown tzviya: … maybe people just haven’t explored these issues, or have they tried and given up? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:41:47 <ivan_> Present+ Ben_De_Meister

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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Ben_De_Meister

15:41:48 <brady_duga> peter: not a lot of giving up. Lot of focus on the print side, so limits what you can do

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Unknown peter: not a lot of giving up. Lot of focus on the print side, so limits what you can do [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:42:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: q+

15:42:21 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf

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Unknown tzviya: ack Bill_Kasdorf

15:42:53 <brady_duga> bill: asking about pub formats in a traditional sense, or using the web for science in general?

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Unknown bill: asking about pub formats in a traditional sense, or using the web for science in general? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:43:00 <TimCole> q+

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Unknown TimCole: q+

15:43:19 <brady_duga> bill: … in science it is taken for granted that the web is used

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Unknown bill: … in science it is taken for granted that the web is used [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:43:58 <pkra> my call dropped...

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Unknown pkra: my call dropped...

15:43:59 <brady_duga> bill: .. reaction to comment about reflowable. Using tools is common and not a problem, reflowable content is another story.

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Unknown bill: .. reaction to comment about reflowable. Using tools is common and not a problem, reflowable content is another story. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:44:23 <Zakim> -pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra

15:44:26 <pkra> brb

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Unknown pkra: brb

15:44:51 <brady_duga> dkaplan: what is an epub? what is a publication?

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Unknown dkaplan: what is an epub? what is a publication? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:44:56 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben De Meester

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Unknown bjdmeest: Present+ Ben De Meester

15:44:59 <brady_duga> bill: yes, keep cycling back to that

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Unknown bill: yes, keep cycling back to that [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:45:03 <Zakim> +pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra

15:45:08 <brady_duga> bill: … may not be relevant

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Unknown bill: … may not be relevant [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:45:21 <brady_duga> dkaplan: is there a STEM group at W3c?

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Unknown dkaplan: is there a STEM group at W3c? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:45:25 <brady_duga> ivan: no

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Unknown ivan: no [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:46:19 <brady_duga> ivan: there has been discussion in the last few months about publications of schaolarly data

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Unknown ivan: there has been discussion in the last few months about publications of schaolarly data [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:46:20 <Zakim> -pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra

15:46:24 <pkra> flaky connection..

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Unknown pkra: flaky connection..

15:46:58 <Zakim> +pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra

15:47:32 <ivan> q+

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Unknown ivan: q+

15:47:48 <brady_duga> zviya: wants to make sure we can actually accomplish something. We could cover the entire web, but that is impossible. Please let’s not try

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Unknown zviya: wants to make sure we can actually accomplish something. We could cover the entire web, but that is impossible. Please let’s not try [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:47:59 <brady_duga> tzviya: … peter, can we get some next steps?

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Unknown tzviya: … peter, can we get some next steps? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:48:25 <brady_duga> tim: there is a set of concerns about traditional pubs moving to the web that PDF can’t do

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Unknown tim: there is a set of concerns about traditional pubs moving to the web that PDF can’t do [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:48:45 <brady_duga> tim: … for instance, in math it is not just data, for example a graph you can manipualte

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Unknown tim: … for instance, in math it is not just data, for example a graph you can manipualte [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:48:55 <brady_duga> tim: … or a 3d model

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Unknown tim: … or a 3d model [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:49:05 <brady_duga> bill: already done routinely

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Unknown bill: already done routinely [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:49:11 <brady_duga> tim: yes, but non-standard

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Unknown tim: yes, but non-standard [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:49:12 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

15:49:17 <tzviya> ack TimCole

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Unknown tzviya: ack TimCole

15:49:49 <brady_duga> tzviya: do you want to standardize the data or the method or presenting the data?

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Unknown tzviya: do you want to standardize the data or the method or presenting the data? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:50:07 <brady_duga> tzviya: … data we can address, not so much the 3d modelling

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Unknown tzviya: … data we can address, not so much the 3d modelling [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:50:19 <brady_duga> bill: why can’t we do the modelling

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Unknown bill: why can’t we do the modelling [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:50:51 <brady_duga> bill: … our job is not to solve the problems. If we are focusing on STEM we can’t say modelling is out of scope

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Unknown bill: … our job is not to solve the problems. If we are focusing on STEM we can’t say 3D modelling is out of scope [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:51:31 <brady_duga> tim: Dichotomy isn’t unreasonable

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Unknown tim: Dichotomy isn’t unreasonable [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:51:42 <tzviya> ack ivan

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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan

15:51:45 <pkra> q+

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Unknown pkra: q+

15:52:04 <brady_duga> ivan: 2 indepentent things

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Unknown ivan: 2 indepentent things [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:52:28 <brady_duga> ivan: … 1) there are lots of problems with PDF. Lots of things STEM wants to do and PDF doesn’t offer them

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Unknown ivan: … 1) there are lots of problems with PDF. Lots of things STEM wants to do and PDF doesn’t offer them [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:53:03 <brady_duga> ivan: … if this group came up with lists of areas where STEM has problems with PDF, would be great

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Unknown ivan: … if this group came up with lists of areas where STEM has problems with PDF, would be great [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:53:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/modelling/3D modelling
15:53:29 <brady_duga> ivan: … offers some names for Peter (ask him for them)

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Unknown ivan: … offers some names for Peter (ask him for them) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:53:52 <brady_duga> ivan: … 2) for the data, trying to find out what are the missing bits is something that is interesting and important

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Unknown ivan: … 2) for the data, trying to find out what are the missing bits is something that is interesting and important [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:54:14 <brady_duga> ivan: … interesting because Don Groupson joined

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Unknown ivan: … interesting because Don Brutzman joined [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:54:35 <brady_duga> ivan: … have tried to bring 3d modelling to the web for years in web3d group

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Unknown ivan: … have tried to bring 3d modelling to the web for years in web3d group [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:54:38 <tzviya> s/Groupson/Brutzman
15:55:09 <brady_duga> ivan: … w3c pushed away, not mature enough, may not be enough interest

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Unknown ivan: … w3c pushed away, not mature enough, may not be enough interest [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:55:37 <brady_duga> ivan: … if we push for it (on web, in epub), brings it into scope and makes it interesting to w3c

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Unknown ivan: … if we push for it (on web, in epub), brings it into scope and makes it interesting to w3c [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:55:48 <brady_duga> ivan: … may be other interesting formats

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Unknown ivan: … may be other interesting formats [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:56:22 <tzviya> ack pkra

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Unknown tzviya: ack pkra

15:56:24 <brady_duga> ivan: … whether w3c can handle it, we can’t decide, but we can identify issues with current specs (for example can html5 handle 3d like it handles svg)

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Unknown ivan: … whether w3c can handle it, we can’t decide, but we can identify issues with current specs (for example can html5 handle 3d like it handles svg) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:57:02 <brady_duga> peter: clarifying that talking to real publishers, that doesn’t seem to be a place we can find solutions

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Unknown peter: clarifying that talking to real publishers, that doesn’t seem to be a place we can find solutions [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:57:37 <brady_duga> peter: … static rendering eliminates need for custom rendering

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Unknown peter: … static rendering eliminates need for custom rendering [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:58:16 <brady_duga> peter: … do think the idea of a STEM group or community to bring together interested parties might be a good outcome from the task force

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Unknown peter: … do think the idea of a STEM group or community to bring together interested parties might be a good outcome from the task force [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:58:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1

15:58:46 <ivan> q+

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Unknown ivan: q+

15:58:47 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

15:58:50 <brady_duga> peter: … maybe the perfect tool is a couple of CG, might be worthwhile to bring these people together

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Unknown peter: … maybe the perfect tool is a couple of CG, might be worthwhile to bring these people together [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:58:52 <tzviya> ack ivan

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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan

15:59:16 <brady_duga> peter: … help publishers formulate the solutions they need (want to do interesting things, but don’t know how)

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Unknown peter: … help publishers formulate the solutions they need (want to do interesting things, but don’t know how) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:59:25 <brady_duga> ivan: only concern is work duplication

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Unknown ivan: only concern is work duplication [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

15:59:34 <ivan> Force11 - http://www.force11.org

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Unknown ivan: Force11 - http://www.force11.org

16:00:04 <brady_duga> ivan: … is on the board at force11, looking at these issues, they are active

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Unknown ivan: … is on the board at force11, looking at these issues, they are active [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:00:21 <brady_duga> ivan: … force11 doesn’t want to work alone

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Unknown ivan: … force11 doesn’t want to work alone [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:00:34 <brady_duga> ivan: … once we know what is needed, we can rech out to these groups

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Unknown ivan: … once we know what is needed, we can rech out to these groups [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:00:52 <brady_duga> ivan: … The interviews you had were with publishers

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Unknown ivan: … The interviews you had were with publishers [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:01:22 <brady_duga> ivan: … the big publishers are very conservative, so maybe you need to have interviews with people in the scholarly community

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Unknown ivan: … the big publishers are very conservative, so maybe you need to have interviews with people in the scholarly community [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:01:37 <tzviya> +1

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Unknown tzviya: +1

16:01:47 <brady_duga> ivan: … there are very few scholarly publishers  in anything other than PDF

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Unknown ivan: … there are very few scholarly publishers in anything other than PDF [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:02:03 <brady_duga> ivan: … hard to break the circle, want ot hear from both sides

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Unknown ivan: … hard to break the circle, want ot hear from both sides [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:02:19 <brady_duga> bill: the first interviews were with those people. We do have that input.

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Unknown bill: the first interviews were with those people. We do have that input. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:02:45 <TimCole> q+

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Unknown TimCole: q+

16:03:19 <brady_duga> peter: scholars annoyed with current tech, give me anything to get away from static rendering

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Unknown peter: scholars annoyed with current tech, give me anything to get away from static rendering [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:03:20 <tzviya> ack TimCole

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Unknown tzviya: ack TimCole

16:03:48 <brady_duga> tim: You ask scholars what they need in digital media, and they ask for the wrong thing, or underestimate

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Unknown tim: You ask scholars what they need in digital media, and they ask for the wrong thing, or underestimate [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:04:13 <brady_duga> tim: … got best results talking to PhD students. Learn a lot about their fears.

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Unknown tim: … got best results talking to PhD students. Learn a lot about their fears. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:04:19 <dkaplan3> q+

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Unknown dkaplan3: q+

16:04:32 <brady_duga> tim: … cautious, want to protect their careers

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Unknown tim: … cautious, want to protect their careers [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:04:37 <tzviya> ack dkaplan

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Unknown tzviya: ack dkaplan

16:05:02 <ivan> q+

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Unknown ivan: q+

16:06:08 <brady_duga> peter: Seems like a CG to bring people together would be good

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Unknown peter: Seems like a CG to bring people together would be good [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:06:36 <brady_duga> dkaplan: 2 deliverables: think STEM is a larger issues than DPUB (tell this to W3c)

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Unknown dkaplan: 2 deliverables: think STEM is a larger issues than DPUB (tell this to W3c) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:06:54 <brady_duga> dkaplan: w3c should look into this for a STEM group

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Unknown dkaplan: w3c should look into this for a STEM group [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:07:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: q+

16:07:23 <brady_duga> dkaplan: … from dpub, we have a list of things that STEM people want in their publications that they can’t do

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Unknown dkaplan: … from dpub, we have a list of things that STEM people want in their publications that they can’t do [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:07:37 <brady_duga> dkaplan: … hand this research over to w3c/new group

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Unknown dkaplan: … hand this research over to w3c/new group [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:07:45 <pkra> q+

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Unknown pkra: q+

16:08:03 <brady_duga> dkaplan: … we could be stuck just looking at one issue in this group for years

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Unknown dkaplan: … we could be stuck just looking at one issue in this group for years [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:08:05 <tzviya> ack ivan

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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan

16:08:30 <ivan> Maryann Martone, maryann@ncmir.ucsd.edu

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Unknown ivan: Maryann Martone, maryann@ncmir.ucsd.edu

16:08:40 <brady_duga> ivan: 2 additional things: Peter - you could get an interview with Maryann Martone

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Unknown ivan: 2 additional things: Peter - you could get an interview with Maryann Martone [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:08:53 <brady_duga> ivan: … I don’t want to do it, you should

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Unknown ivan: … I don’t want to do it, you should [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:09:24 <brady_duga> ivan: … other thing: to document what dkaplan just said is useful

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Unknown ivan: … other thing: to document what dkaplan just said is useful [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:09:32 <brady_duga> ivan: … but don’t get your hope up

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Unknown ivan: … but don’t get your hope up [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:10:14 <brady_duga> ivan: … things may have already slipped out of w3c, so we may be too late

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Unknown ivan: … things may have already slipped out of w3c, so we may be too late [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:10:20 <tzviya> ack Bill-Kasdorf

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Unknown tzviya: ack Bill-Kasdorf

16:10:24 <brady_duga> ivan: … the list is very useful

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Unknown ivan: … the list is very useful [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:10:39 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf

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Unknown tzviya: ack Bill_Kasdorf

16:11:02 <brady_duga> peter: to clarify, biggest problem is when you say Maryann Martone has good insights from our point of view, my problem is “what is out point of view”?

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Unknown peter: to clarify, biggest problem is when you say Maryann Martone has good insights from our point of view, my problem is “what is out point of view”? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:11:25 <brady_duga> ivan: what are issues scholars have with PDF? Or traditional publications?

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Unknown ivan: what are issues scholars have with PDF? Or traditional publications? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:11:39 <brady_duga> ivan: … she may have ideas and further pointers for that

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Unknown ivan: … she may have ideas and further pointers for that [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:12:14 <brady_duga> bill: the issues we are talking about today should go in the questionaire

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Unknown bill: the issues we are talking about today should go in the questionaire [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:12:26 <brady_duga> bill: … that’s what the interviews are for

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Unknown bill: … that’s what the interviews are for [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:13:00 <brady_duga> tzviya: At what point will we get data back from the questionnaire? This group is chartered for just one more year

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Unknown tzviya: At what point will we get data back from the questionnaire? This group is chartered for just one more year [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:13:39 <brady_duga> bill: task force strategy was to do interviews to create the larger, more structured questionaire

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Unknown bill: task force strategy was to do interviews to create the larger, more structured questionaire [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:14:07 <brady_duga> peter: Timing, send out Q in Nov, then give people to end of year

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Unknown peter: Timing, send out Q in Nov, then give people to end of year [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:14:14 <brady_duga> peter: … then write up in Jan

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Unknown peter: … then write up in Jan [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:14:29 <brady_duga> ivan: can you come to conference in Jan?

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Unknown ivan: can you come to conference in Jan? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:14:33 <brady_duga> peter: I will try

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Unknown peter: I will try [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:14:36 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

16:14:54 <tzviya> ack pkra

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Unknown tzviya: ack pkra

16:15:14 <brady_duga> tzviya: timing: get Q out in early Nov, give them 1 or 2 weeks, get all results by end of Nov.

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Unknown tzviya: timing: get Q out in early Nov, give them 1 or 2 weeks, get all results by end of Nov. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:15:35 <brady_duga> tzviya: … then process data in 2 or 4 weeks, when have it all ready for force11 conf

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Unknown tzviya: … then process data in 2 or 4 weeks, when have it all ready for force11 conf [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:15:52 <brady_duga> tzviya: … we end in less than 1 year, so need to have discrete action items ASAP

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Unknown tzviya: … we end in less than 1 year, so need to have discrete action items ASAP [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:16:00 <brady_duga> tzviya: does that timeline work?

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Unknown tzviya: does that timeline work? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:16:06 <brady_duga> peter: we will make it work

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Unknown peter: we will make it work [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:16:19 <brady_duga> bill: we can find a volunteer to help

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Unknown bill: we can find a volunteer to help [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:16:45 <brady_duga> peter: surprising thing was authoring on and for the web topic

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Unknown peter: surprising thing was authoring on and for the web topic [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:16:57 <brady_duga> peter: less STEM, but using the web as an authoring platform

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Unknown peter: less STEM, but using the web as an authoring platform [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:17:00 <ivan> Present+ Daniel_Glazmann

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Daniel_Glazmann

16:17:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1

16:17:15 <brady_duga> peter: … there is movement away from xml

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Unknown peter: … there is movement away from xml [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:17:33 <brady_duga> peter: … people data mine html anyway, so why do we make xml?

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Unknown peter: … people data mine html anyway, so why do we make xml? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:17:59 <brady_duga> peter: … slow transition away from PDF to web

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Unknown peter: … slow transition away from PDF to web [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:18:19 <brady_duga> peter: … search - no one does it because there are no semantically interesting formats

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Unknown peter: … search - no one does it because there are no semantically interesting formats [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:18:48 <brady_duga> peter: … mathml is ahead of the curve, but everyone else there are no tools it is an abyss

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Unknown peter: … mathml is ahead of the curve, but everyone else there are no tools it is an abyss [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:18:59 <brady_duga> peter: … annotation work is appreciated

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Unknown peter: … annotation work is appreciated [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:19:22 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

16:19:22 <brady_duga> peter: … metadata - there is a lot of detailed metadata, but it seems too hard to use, too hand crafted

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Unknown peter: … metadata - there is a lot of detailed metadata, but it seems too hard to use, too hand crafted [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:19:57 <brady_duga> peter: … peer review - this is publishing in general. How to organize it on the web, then how do we deal with STEM specific content (for example the data)

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Unknown peter: … peer review - this is publishing in general. How to organize it on the web, then how do we deal with STEM specific content (for example the data) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:20:12 <brady_duga> peter: … and finally data. How to deal with data sets, make them available, etc

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Unknown peter: … and finally data. How to deal with data sets, make them available, etc [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:20:48 <brady_duga> tzviya: talk about AI

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Unknown tzviya: talk about AI [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:21:15 <brady_duga> action pkra to send STEM survey in Nov

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Unknown brady_duga: action pkra to send STEM survey in Nov

16:21:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Send stem survey in nov [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-34 - Send stem survey in nov [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07].

16:21:51 <brady_duga> tzviya: who is on taskforce?

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Unknown tzviya: who is on taskforce? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:22:04 <brady_duga> ivan: reach out to Don

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Unknown ivan: reach out to Don [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:22:17 <brady_duga> action tzviya to reach out to Don

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Unknown brady_duga: action tzviya to reach out to Don

16:22:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Reach out to don [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-35 - Reach out to don [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07].

16:22:50 <brady_duga> action pkra to call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this Monday)

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Unknown brady_duga: action pkra to call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this Monday)

16:22:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this monday) [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-36 - Call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this monday) [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07].

16:23:37 <brady_duga> tzviya: Need to document the results. Ivan will lead the process through respec

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Unknown tzviya: Need to document the results. Ivan will lead the process through respec [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:24:17 <brady_duga> peter: have started to work on a proper respec document

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Unknown peter: have started to work on a proper respec document [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:24:37 <brady_duga> markus: have a tangent question

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Markus Gylling: have a tangent question [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:24:51 <brady_duga> markus: … ivan said there was a 3d standards war?

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Markus Gylling: … ivan said there was a 3d standards war? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:25:14 <brady_duga> ivan: webgl is low level. If you want complicated 3d models, doing it in webgl is tedious

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Unknown ivan: webgl is low level. If you want complicated 3d models, doing it in webgl is tedious [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:25:58 <brady_duga> ivan: … x3d consortium has an xml spec for modelling (very old school)

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Unknown ivan: … x3d consortium has an xml spec for modelling (very old school) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:26:20 <brady_duga> ivan: .. there is another group that has a similar language, but closer to the web (use CSS, DOM, etc)

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Unknown ivan: .. there is another group that has a similar language, but closer to the web (use CSS, DOM, etc) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:26:30 <brady_duga> markus: do they both use webgl?

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Markus Gylling: do they both use webgl? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:26:42 <brady_duga> ivan: yes, underneath they both use webgl

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Unknown ivan: yes, underneath they both use webgl [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:27:00 <brady_duga> ivan: … there was a German CG, sort of died out

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Unknown ivan: … there was a German CG, sort of died out [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:27:23 <brady_duga> ivan: … it is worse than mathml, browsers say it is a niche market, not interested in implementing it

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Unknown ivan: … it is worse than mathml, browsers say it is a niche market, not interested in implementing it [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:28:09 <brady_duga> ivan: … this idea of doing 3d at w3c, some people have talked about it since early 2000s

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Unknown ivan: … this idea of doing 3d at w3c, some people have talked about it since early 2000s [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:28:34 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

16:28:36 <brady_duga> ivan: … if digital publishers push for it, maybe the new demand would push things forward

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Unknown ivan: … if digital publishers push for it, maybe the new demand would push things forward [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:28:57 <dkaplan3> q+

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Unknown dkaplan3: q+

16:29:15 <tzviya> ack dkaplan

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Unknown tzviya: ack dkaplan

16:29:46 <brady_duga> dkaplan: maybe out of school but when there is STEM outreach maybe talk to some blind scientists.

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Unknown dkaplan: maybe out of scope but when there is STEM outreach maybe talk to some blind scientists. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:30:01 <dkaplan3> s/school/scope
16:30:06 <brady_duga> peter: maybe John Gardner?

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Unknown peter: maybe John Gardner? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:30:51 <brady_duga> tzviya: we do have acccesible authoring tools at 1pm here. Peter, please join if you are awake

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Unknown tzviya: we do have acccesible authoring tools at 1pm here. Peter, please join if you are awake [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ]

16:31:31 <Zakim> -madi

Zakim IRC Bot: -madi

16:32:27 <Zakim> -pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra

16:42:29 <Zakim> + +44.788.775.aaaa

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.788.775.aaaa

16:42:48 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe

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(Scribe set to Unknown dauwhe)

16:43:13 <Zakim> +madi

Zakim IRC Bot: +madi

16:46:00 <Zakim> +astein

Zakim IRC Bot: +astein

16:46:49 <Zakim> + +1.217.721.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.217.721.aabb

16:47:19 <ivan> Present+ Liam_Quin

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Liam_Quin

16:47:36 <ivan> Present+ Alan_Stein

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Alan_Stein

16:47:56 <ivan> Chair: Markus
16:47:59 <dauwhe> Topic: metadata

2. metadata

16:48:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> Metadata agenda is at https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Metadata agenda is at https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F

16:48:06 <dauwhe> mgylling: we have two hours

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Markus Gylling: we have two hours

16:48:25 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: this will be simple

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: this will be simple

16:48:42 <dauwhe> mgylling: what do you see as outcomes after two hours?

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Markus Gylling: what do you see as outcomes after two hours?

16:49:00 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: defer to ivan on first step

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: defer to ivan on first step

16:49:13 <dauwhe> ... we don't have is a document to deliver to w3c

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... we don't have is a document to deliver to w3c

16:49:18 <astein> *Ayla_Stein

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Unknown astein: *Ayla_Stein

16:49:26 <dauwhe> ... what are we asking of W3C to address metadata

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... what are we asking of W3C to address metadata

16:49:32 <dauwhe> ... how can we best express that?

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... how can we best express that?

16:50:11 <dauwhe> ... we focused on many nebulous issues, where the W3C cannot help

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... we focused on many nebulous issues, where the W3C cannot help

16:50:21 <dauwhe> ivan: if the IG produces a document on a wish list

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Unknown ivan: if the IG produces a document on a wish list

16:50:26 <dauwhe> ... these are things that should happen

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... these are things that should happen

16:50:38 <dauwhe> ... specific things at w3c

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... specific things at w3c

16:50:43 <dauwhe> ... that's as far as this group can go

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... that's as far as this group can go

16:50:53 <dauwhe> ... under which heading and structure?

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... under which heading and structure?

16:51:10 <dauwhe> ... can publish as w3c note

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... can publish as w3c note

16:51:16 <dauwhe> ... a stable document that can be refered to

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... a stable document that can be refered to

16:51:19 <dauwhe> ... that's my goal

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... that's my goal

16:51:32 <dauwhe> ... in that doc you cannot use the word "recommendation"

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... in that doc you cannot use the word "recommendation"

16:52:04 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: overview... we know how we got here

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: overview... we know how we got here

16:52:08 <dauwhe> ... three main things

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... three main things

16:52:15 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

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Unknown ivan: zakim, who is here?

16:52:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Seattle, +44.788.775.aaaa (muted), madi, astein, +1.217.721.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Seattle, +44.788.775.aaaa (muted), madi, astein, +1.217.721.aabb

16:52:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see liam_, murakami_, astein, bobtung, Reinaldo_, madi, ShaneM_, fettes, fjh, jamesn, bjdmeest, clapierre1, Bill_Kasdorf, Karen_, ivan, tzviya, takeshi, dauwhe,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see liam_, murakami_, astein, bobtung, Reinaldo_, madi, ShaneM_, fettes, fjh, jamesn, bjdmeest, clapierre1, Bill_Kasdorf, Karen_, ivan, tzviya, takeshi, dauwhe,

16:52:18 <Zakim> ... brady_duga, RRSAgent, Zakim, mgylling, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... brady_duga, RRSAgent, Zakim, mgylling, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot

16:52:24 <dauwhe> ... first: need to better enable ONIX metadata expressed on the web and in web docs

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... first: need to better enable ONIX metadata expressed on the web and in web docs

16:52:47 <dauwhe> ivan: [administrative issues discussed]

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Unknown ivan: [administrative issues discussed]

16:52:51 <ivan> Present+ Graham

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Graham

16:53:40 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: second issue is lack of understanding in pub community of existing tools like URIs

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: second issue is lack of understanding in pub community of existing tools like URIs

16:53:50 <dauwhe> ... little understanding of RDFa

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... little understanding of RDFa

16:53:58 <dauwhe> ... that's in pub side, not library side

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... that's in pub side, not library side

16:54:09 <dauwhe> ... there's a big gulf between trade and library sides of business

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... there's a big gulf between trade and library sides of business

16:54:28 <dauwhe> ... need better education

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... need better education

16:54:39 <dauwhe> ... third issue is rights metadata

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... third issue is rights metadata

16:54:59 <dauwhe> ... not just associating rights metadata with publications, but with portions of publications

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... not just associating rights metadata with publications, but with portions of publications

16:55:07 <dauwhe> ... we don't have a strategy for those three issues

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... we don't have a strategy for those three issues

16:55:20 <dauwhe> ... let's talk about ONIX first, as we have Graham on the phone, Mr. Onix

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... let's talk about ONIX first, as we have Graham on the phone, Mr. Onix

16:55:29 <dauwhe> ... ONIX is a messaging format between trading partners

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... ONIX is a messaging format between trading partners

16:55:44 <dauwhe> ... it's confused with subject metadata, but ONIX is much more

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... it's confused with subject metadata, but ONIX is much more

16:55:53 <dauwhe> ... the discussion has often involved schema.org

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... the discussion has often involved schema.org

16:56:09 <dauwhe> ... is the discussion about ONIX? Or schema.org?

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... is the discussion about ONIX? Or schema.org?

16:56:17 <dauwhe> ... there are other orgs working on similar things

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... there are other orgs working on similar things

16:56:23 <dauwhe> ... let's collaborate but not collide

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... let's collaborate but not collide

16:56:49 <dauwhe> ... first thing is to get a firm grasp on players and what they're doing, especially in schema.org

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... first thing is to get a firm grasp on players and what they're doing, especially in schema.org

16:57:03 <dauwhe> ... BISG is U.S. org that talks to Editeur

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... BISG is U.S. org that talks to Editeur

16:57:17 <dauwhe> ... BISG is forming WG on book publishers using onix with schema.org

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... BISG is forming WG on book publishers using onix with schema.org

16:57:23 <dauwhe> ... Graham is chair of that WG for BISG

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... Graham is chair of that WG for BISG

16:57:44 <dauwhe> ... when talking with ??? of Springer, people talking about subscription metadata in schema.org

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... when talking with ??? of Springer, people talking about subscription metadata in schema.org

16:58:01 <dauwhe> ... Also some work in Library community on schema.org

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... Also some work in Library community on schema.org

16:58:14 <dauwhe> ... so we may need to focus on schema.org rather than ONIX

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... so we may need to focus on schema.org rather than ONIX

16:58:34 <dauwhe> TimCole: we've worked with OCLC and LOC

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Unknown TimCole: we've worked with OCLC and LOC

16:58:48 <dauwhe> ... Libraries are trying to figure out how to use schema.org

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... Libraries are trying to figure out how to use schema.org

16:58:56 <dauwhe> ... need authority files

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... need authority files

16:59:29 <dauwhe> ... we have MARC records looking about information for names to map to URIs

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... we have MARC records looking about information for names to map to URIs

16:59:50 <dauwhe> ... we analyzed 5m books, got 70% by matching

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... we analyzed 5m books, got 70% by matching

17:00:03 <dauwhe> ... partly because old MARC records didn't have birth/death data

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... partly because old MARC records didn't have birth/death data

17:00:09 <dauwhe> ... similar results with subject names

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... similar results with subject names

17:00:16 <dauwhe> ... made schema.org records better

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... made schema.org records better

17:00:24 <dauwhe> ... and linked them with other sources

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... and linked them with other sources

17:00:42 <dauwhe> ... how to express holdings in schema.org

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... how to express holdings in schema.org

17:00:48 <dauwhe> ... there's a community group

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... there's a community group

17:01:24 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: pubs have ONIX, library has MARC

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: pubs have ONIX, library has MARC

17:01:43 <dauwhe> ... but in library world there are major authority files like VIF, worldcat, name authority files

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... but in library world there are major authority files like VIF, worldcat, name authority files

17:01:55 <dauwhe> ... that are invaluable to librarians, who are the real metadata experts

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... that are invaluable to librarians, who are the real metadata experts

17:02:09 <dauwhe> ... but publishers don't know that sh%#

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... but publishers don't know that sh%#

17:02:24 <dauwhe> TimCole: link to wikipedia names

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Unknown TimCole: link to wikipedia names

17:03:28 <ivan> The community group Tim was talking about: http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/

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Unknown ivan: The community group Tim was talking about: http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/

17:03:33 <dauwhe> Graham: I agree with Tim

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Unknown Graham: I agree with Tim

17:03:46 <dauwhe> ... increasing interest in authorities like ISNI in pub world

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... increasing interest in authorities like ISNI in pub world

17:03:58 <dauwhe> ... not quite the same as VIAF

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... not quite the same as VIAF

17:04:05 <dauwhe> ... but does give you all disambiguations

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... but does give you all disambiguations

17:04:14 <dauwhe> ... close links between OCLC and ISNI

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... close links between OCLC and ISNI

17:04:26 <dauwhe> ... and is unique persistent identifier for a public identity

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... and is unique persistent identifier for a public identity

17:04:35 <dauwhe> ... can be expressed as URI

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... can be expressed as URI

17:04:44 <dauwhe> ... [lots of slashes]

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... [lots of slashes]

17:04:58 <dauwhe> ... there are also subject authorities like BISAC and BIC and Thema

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... there are also subject authorities like BISAC and BIC and Thema

17:05:22 <dauwhe> ... they do something similar to Dewey or LOC or similar things

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... they do something similar to Dewey or LOC or similar things

17:05:37 <dauwhe> ... it's not that pub doesn't have authority, it's just different and perhaps a little behind

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... it's not that pub doesn't have authority, it's just different and perhaps a little behind

17:05:45 <dauwhe> ... ISNI isn't widely used yet

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... ISNI isn't widely used yet

17:05:59 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: there are 8 million ISNI

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: there are 8 million ISNI

17:06:11 <dauwhe> Graham: ISNI is growing quickly but not widely used

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Unknown Graham: ISNI is growing quickly but not widely used

17:06:17 <dauwhe> ... the subject schemes are widely used

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... the subject schemes are widely used

17:06:27 <dauwhe> ... BISAC is ubiquitious in US, BIC in UK

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... BISAC is ubiquitious in US, BIC in UK

17:06:36 <dauwhe> ... the problem is that they are national

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... the problem is that they are national

17:06:46 <ivan> (the scholarly publishers and authors have a similar service via ORCID (http://www.orcid.org)

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Unknown ivan: (the scholarly publishers and authors have a similar service via ORCID (http://www.orcid.org)

17:06:49 <dauwhe> ... France has CLIL

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... France has CLIL

17:06:58 <dauwhe> ... there are hundreds of these subject schemes

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... there are hundreds of these subject schemes

17:07:09 <dauwhe> ... Thema is designed to solve this problem

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... Thema is designed to solve this problem

17:07:15 <dauwhe> ... based on BIC but more international

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... based on BIC but more international

17:07:24 <dauwhe> ... Happy First Birthday to Thema!

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... Happy First Birthday to Thema!

17:07:28 <dauwhe> ... it's growing

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... it's growing

17:07:39 <dauwhe> ... and commercially relevant

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... and commercially relevant

17:07:55 <dauwhe> ... it has different features than library subject schemes, which are much more details

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... it has different features than library subject schemes, which are much more details

17:08:06 <dauwhe> ... library schemes may have 100000 categories

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... library schemes may have 100000 categories

17:08:18 <tzviya> q+

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Unknown tzviya: q+

17:08:28 <dauwhe> ... publishers have relatively unskilled poeople, there are 4k subjects

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... publishers have relatively unskilled poeople, there are 4k subjects

17:08:40 <dauwhe> s/poeple/people/

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s/poeple/people/ (warning: replacement failed)

17:08:48 <dauwhe> madi: [beep]

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Unknown madi: [beep]

17:08:57 <dauwhe> ... what sort of actions do we want to take?

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... what sort of actions do we want to take?

17:09:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is fun but let's focus

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Unknown tzviya: this is fun but let's focus

17:09:15 <ivan> q+

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Unknown ivan: q+

17:09:15 <tzviya> ack tzviya

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Unknown tzviya: ack tzviya

17:09:21 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: there's lots of metadata out there

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: there's lots of metadata out there

17:09:35 <dauwhe> ... focus should be to how to implement this in OWP?

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... focus should be to how to implement this in OWP?

17:09:39 <dauwhe> ... what needs to be done?

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... what needs to be done?

17:10:08 <dauwhe> ... do we need to chose between these identifiers? No, need lots of them

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... do we need to chose between these identifiers? No, need lots of them

17:10:17 <dauwhe> ... but must express as URIs.

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... but must express as URIs.

17:10:32 <dauwhe> ... need resolvable identifiers expressed as URIs

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... need resolvable identifiers expressed as URIs

17:11:14 <dauwhe> ... we were focused on ONIX, which means we're focusing on book trade

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... we were focused on ONIX, which means we're focusing on book trade

17:11:19 <dauwhe> ... note we don't govern ONIX

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... note we don't govern ONIX

17:11:30 <dauwhe> ... schema.org is not W3C standard

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... schema.org is not W3C standard

17:11:55 <dauwhe> ... I think we should focus on schema.org implementation, independent of the vocabulary

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... I think we should focus on schema.org implementation, independent of the vocabulary

17:12:06 <tzviya> ack ivan

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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan

17:12:09 <dauwhe> ... what might need to be added/changed to make schema.org more useful

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... what might need to be added/changed to make schema.org more useful

17:12:17 <dauwhe> ivan: we need to separate issues

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Unknown ivan: we need to separate issues

17:12:39 <dauwhe> ... various schems like ISNI and Orchid

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... various schems like ISNI and ORCID

17:12:46 <dauwhe> ... these are important

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... these are important

17:12:57 <tzviya> s/Orchid/ORCID
17:12:58 <dauwhe> ... it's sad that we have many standards instead of one

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... it's sad that we have many standards instead of one

17:13:27 <dauwhe> ... schema.org is a collection of terms for the properties

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... schema.org is a collection of terms for the properties

17:13:48 <dauwhe> ... can only have list of subjects (accepted vocabularies)

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... can only have list of subjects (accepted vocabularies)

17:14:01 <dauwhe> ... we can't really influence them

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... we can't really influence them

17:14:27 <dauwhe> ... schema.org has a heirarchy of classes and properties

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... schema.org has a heirarchy of classes and properties

17:14:32 <dauwhe> ... persons and shops and actions

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... persons and shops and actions

17:14:40 <dauwhe> ... which falls back to what ONIX can do

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... which falls back to what ONIX can do

17:14:45 <dauwhe> ... ONIX is way too huge

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... ONIX is way too huge

17:15:04 <tzviya> example: http://schema.org/Book

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Unknown example: http://schema.org/Book [ Scribe Assist by Unknown tzviya ]

17:15:22 <dauwhe> ... if there's already a group looking at mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema.org

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... if there's already a group looking at mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema.org

17:15:47 <dauwhe> ... BISG is doing this, which is great

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... BISG is doing this, which is great

17:15:51 <dauwhe> ... so we shouldn't do it.

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... so we shouldn't do it.

17:15:57 <dauwhe> ... let's wish them good luck

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... let's wish them good luck

17:16:02 <dauwhe> ... and I'd be happy to help

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... and I'd be happy to help

17:16:11 <dauwhe> ... and use my contacts at schema.org

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... and use my contacts at schema.org

17:16:27 <dauwhe> ... so let's not set up Yet Another Group (YAG)

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... so let's not set up Yet Another Group (YAG)

17:16:39 <tzviya> +1

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Unknown tzviya: +1

17:16:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: This is for book trade onix metadata

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: This is for book trade onix metadata

17:17:09 <dauwhe> ivan: Graham, do you agree?

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Unknown ivan: Graham, do you agree?

17:17:18 <dauwhe> Graham: yes, I do

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Unknown Graham: yes, I do

17:17:26 <dauwhe> ... some input from this IG might be useful

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... some input from this IG might be useful

17:17:34 <dauwhe> ... within bisg process

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... within bisg process

17:17:54 <dauwhe> ... no need to duplicate effort

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... no need to duplicate effort

17:17:59 <dauwhe> ivan: I'll help

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Unknown ivan: I'll help

17:18:16 <dauwhe> mgylling: you seem to have expected this

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Markus Gylling: you seem to have expected this

17:18:26 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: my point is that lots of people are already doing work

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: my point is that lots of people are already doing work

17:18:34 <dauwhe> ... the focus on ONIX here is misguided

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... the focus on ONIX here is misguided

17:18:46 <dauwhe> ... the W3C spans all these interest groups (lowercase)

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... the W3C spans all these interest groups (lowercase)

17:18:54 <dauwhe> ... libraries, commercial people, etc

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... libraries, commercial people, etc

17:19:00 <dauwhe> ... the web crosses all those areas

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... the web crosses all those areas

17:19:28 <dauwhe> ... if we exclude graham, the people at BISG are unaware of tim's work in library world with schema.org

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... if we exclude graham, the people at BISG are unaware of tim's work in library world with schema.org

17:19:34 <dauwhe> ... is there some matchmaking we can do?

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... is there some matchmaking we can do?

17:19:41 <dauwhe> mgylling: is w3c the vehicle?

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Markus Gylling: is w3c the vehicle?

17:19:48 <dauwhe> ivan: we can't federate all these groups

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Unknown ivan: we can't federate all these groups

17:19:57 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: w3c as intermediary

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: w3c as intermediary

17:20:08 <dauwhe> ivan: lots of tech here around semantic web

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Unknown ivan: lots of tech here around semantic web

17:20:15 <dauwhe> ... if issues come up

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... if issues come up

17:20:18 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

17:20:23 <tzviya> q+

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Unknown tzviya: q+

17:20:27 <dauwhe> ... then me as former semweb activity lead can help

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... then me as former semweb activity lead can help

17:20:36 <dauwhe> ... but for this IG we should stop

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... but for this IG we should stop

17:20:45 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we can be responsive but can't do proactive work

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: we can be responsive but can't do proactive work

17:20:49 <dauwhe> ivan: they are in driving seat

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Unknown ivan: they are in driving seat

17:21:23 <Zakim> - +44.788.775.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +44.788.775.aaaa

17:21:25 <dauwhe> ... looking at RDF-ization of ONIX

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... looking at RDF-ization of ONIX

17:21:41 <dauwhe> ... if there's an interest for it, it's not happening anywhere, it could happen here

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... if there's an interest for it, it's not happening anywhere, it could happen here

17:22:02 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is supportive of this idea

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is supportive of this idea

17:22:09 <dauwhe> ivan: This is Graham's hobby

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Unknown ivan: This is Graham's hobby

17:22:26 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is overloaded, an offer to help here could help

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is overloaded, an offer to help here could help

17:22:48 <dauwhe> mgylling: in the note, propose this as future activity?

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Markus Gylling: in the note, propose this as future activity?

17:22:56 <dauwhe> ivan: we should explore, not commit

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Unknown ivan: we should explore, not commit

17:23:09 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I want madi and tcole's perspective

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I want madi and tcole's perspective

17:23:24 <dauwhe> ... commercial pubs don't use or understand RDF

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... commercial pubs don't use or understand RDF

17:23:46 <dauwhe> madi: I think it's a great idea

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Unknown madi: I think it's a great idea

17:24:09 <dauwhe> ivan: schema.org will never take whole of ONIX

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Unknown ivan: schema.org will never take whole of ONIX

17:24:20 <dauwhe> madi: I assume we're talking about RDFa

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Unknown madi: I assume we're talking about RDFa

17:24:29 <dauwhe> ivan: RDFa is just an expression of an RDF model

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Unknown ivan: RDFa is just an expression of an RDF model

17:24:38 <dauwhe> ... can be expressed in RDFa or JSON-LD

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... can be expressed in RDFa or JSON-LD

17:24:48 <dauwhe> ... it can use some terms that schema.org has

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... it can use some terms that schema.org has

17:24:52 <dauwhe> ... but can't add terms

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... but can't add terms

17:25:21 <dauwhe> madi: start with RDFization but consumable by schema.org

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Unknown madi: start with RDFization but consumable by schema.org

17:25:29 <dauwhe> ... i know creativework has book

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... i know creativework has book

17:25:38 <dauwhe> ... I've beenl playing with google rich snippets

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... I've beenl playing with google rich snippets

17:25:56 <dauwhe> ... I want to take aspects of minimal book or publication, finding key metadata elements

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... I want to take aspects of minimal book or publication, finding key metadata elements

17:26:07 <dauwhe> ... in a rich snippet that would automate RDF from ONIX

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... in a rich snippet that would automate RDF from ONIX

17:26:12 <dauwhe> ... just a sliver of a subset

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... just a sliver of a subset

17:26:28 <dauwhe> ivan: there is an order here that should be kept

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Unknown ivan: there is an order here that should be kept

17:26:36 <dauwhe> ... by mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema

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... by mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema

17:26:43 <dauwhe> ... that means that subset is turned into RDF

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... that means that subset is turned into RDF

17:26:58 <fettes> q+

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Unknown fettes: q+

17:27:00 <dauwhe> ... which means that a part of onix is already in RDF

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... which means that a part of onix is already in RDF

17:27:08 <dauwhe> ... once that work is done by another group

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... once that work is done by another group

17:27:20 <dauwhe> ... is there an interest in extending this to the whole of ONIX

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... is there an interest in extending this to the whole of ONIX

17:27:38 <dauwhe> ... BISG will do subset

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... BISG will do subset

17:27:50 <dauwhe> ... then we can see if extending to whole model is feasible

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... then we can see if extending to whole model is feasible

17:28:03 <dauwhe> TCole: I agree with Ivan

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Unknown TCole: I agree with Ivan

17:28:14 <dauwhe> ... don't take legacy format and turn to effort

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... don't take legacy format and turn to RDF

17:28:20 <dauwhe> ... effort with MARC was abandoned

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... effort with MARC was abandoned

17:28:34 <ivan> s/to effort/to RDF/
17:28:36 <dauwhe> ... effort with ??? is ongoing but problematic

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... effort with Bibframe is ongoing but problematic

17:28:46 <ivan> s/???/Bibframe/
17:29:03 <dauwhe> ... most successful has been map traditional library to schema.org and let some  things go

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... most successful has been map traditional library to schema.org and let some things go

17:29:12 <dauwhe> ... same thing would happen with onix

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... same thing would happen with onix

17:29:15 <ivan> Bibframe: http://bibframe.org

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Unknown Bibframe: http://bibframe.org [ Scribe Assist by Unknown ivan ]

17:29:25 <dauwhe> ... some of onix you might not want in schema.org

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... some of onix you might not want in schema.org

17:29:33 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

17:29:48 <dauwhe> ???: from books that I see

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Unknown fettes: from books that I see

17:29:52 <dauwhe> ... looking at EPUB

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... looking at EPUB

17:30:01 <dauwhe> ... has vast metadata like DAISY terms

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... has vast metadata like DAISY terms

17:30:06 <tzviya> s/???/fettes
17:30:07 <dauwhe> ... and name/value pairs

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... and name/value pairs

17:30:11 <dauwhe> ... it's all random

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... it's all random

17:30:20 <dauwhe> ... there's rich language that no one uses

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... there's rich language that no one uses

17:30:23 <dauwhe> q+

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q+

17:30:31 <tzviya> ack fettes

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Unknown tzviya: ack fettes

17:30:39 <ivan> Present+ 	 Allastair Fettes

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Allastair Fettes

17:30:40 <dauwhe> ... identifier is most important thing and we don't trust it

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... identifier is most important thing and we don't trust it

17:30:59 <dauwhe> ... we can shoehorn interesting information into OPF file

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... we can shoehorn interesting information into OPF file

17:31:14 <dauwhe> ... it's just using meta name of property

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... it's just using meta name of property

17:31:24 <dauwhe> ... you can have registry of roles

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... you can have registry of roles

17:31:28 <dauwhe> ... ibooks:version

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... ibooks:version

17:31:48 <dauwhe> ... using vendor prefix then push to standard

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... using vendor prefix then push to standard

17:31:55 <dauwhe> tzviya: you're talking about package metadata

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Unknown tzviya: you're talking about package metadata

17:32:06 <dauwhe> ... but we're supplying you with ONIX which is better metadata

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... but we're supplying you with ONIX which is better metadata

17:32:08 <dauwhe> q-

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q-

17:32:21 <dauwhe> ... the amazon metadata is from ONIX

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... the amazon metadata is from ONIX

17:32:26 <dauwhe> ... that stuff is updated

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... that stuff is updated

17:32:43 <dauwhe> fettes: so book metadata is orphaned

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Unknown fettes: so book metadata is orphaned

17:33:01 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we have same disconnect between commercial and library world

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: we have same disconnect between commercial and library world

17:33:27 <dauwhe> ... ??? made a comment about not getting article metadata about journals

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... ??? made a comment about not getting article metadata about journals

17:33:31 <tzviya> q-

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Unknown tzviya: q-

17:33:33 <astein> *Ayla

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Unknown astein: *Ayla

17:33:40 <dauwhe> ... because the systems are focused on titles and issues

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... because the systems are focused on titles and issues

17:33:53 <dauwhe> ... so the publisher has the metadata, but the article metadata is stripped out

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... so the publisher has the metadata, but the article metadata is stripped out

17:34:14 <dauwhe> ... by the metadata handoffs through intermediaries

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... by the metadata handoffs through intermediaries

17:34:20 <dkaplan3> q+

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Unknown dkaplan3: q+

17:34:28 <dauwhe> ... lots of what in ONIX doesn't get to MARC (for example)

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... lots of what in ONIX doesn't get to MARC (for example)

17:34:40 <dauwhe> ... so library doesn't get rich metadata, even though publisher created it

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... so library doesn't get rich metadata, even though publisher created it

17:34:50 <astein> q+

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Unknown astein: q+

17:34:56 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

17:35:02 <dauwhe> ... they have OCLC MARC record, but they have another one with lots of publisher metadata

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... they have OCLC MARC record, but they have another one with lots of publisher metadata

17:35:38 <dkaplan3> q-

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Unknown dkaplan3: q-

17:35:52 <mgylling> ack astein

Markus Gylling: ack astein

17:35:58 <astein> maybe

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Unknown astein: maybe

17:35:59 <astein> sorry!

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Unknown astein: sorry!

17:36:04 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we need to move on

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: we need to move on

17:36:24 <dauwhe> ... the proposal with item one is that we should not pursue ONIX in schema.org

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... the proposal with item one is that we should not pursue ONIX in schema.org

17:36:28 <dauwhe> ... just be resource to BISG

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... just be resource to BISG

17:36:49 <dauwhe> ... don't want to complicate that one with Ivan's suggestion of RDFization of all of ONIX

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... don't want to complicate that one with Ivan's suggestion of RDFization of all of ONIX

17:37:05 <dauwhe> ... so we won't pursue #1

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... so we won't pursue #1

17:37:25 <dauwhe> ... #2 gets at one aspect of Alistair's consistent use of identifiers

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... #2 gets at one aspect of Alistair's consistent use of identifiers

17:37:40 <dauwhe> ... let's separate those issues

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... let's separate those issues

17:37:52 <dauwhe> ... so we separate proper use of identifiers with URI

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... so we separate proper use of identifiers with URI

17:38:05 <dauwhe> ... is that the business of this group? Education?

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... is that the business of this group? Education?

17:38:17 <dauwhe> ivan: we collect existing documents

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Unknown ivan: we collect existing documents

17:38:31 <dauwhe> ... there's an RDFa primer

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... there's an RDFa primer

17:38:41 <dauwhe> ... there's a ??? URIs

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... there's a cool uris URIs

17:38:47 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/

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Unknown tzviya: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/

17:39:01 <dauwhe> ... the issue is not covered, but the first thing is to collect those resources

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... the issue is not covered, but the first thing is to collect those resources

17:39:04 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris/

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Unknown tzviya: http://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris/

17:39:09 <dauwhe> ... and then consider whether there's somthing missing

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... and then consider whether there's somthing missing

17:39:17 <dauwhe> s/???/cool uris/
17:39:23 <tzviya> s/???/cool
17:39:45 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: what do we need to do?

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: what do we need to do?

17:40:07 <dauwhe> ... can we assign some folks to look at this issue and report back?

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... can we assign some folks to look at this issue and report back?

17:40:25 <dauwhe> ivan: if at the end of that and some things that are not covered, this group can write more documents

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Unknown ivan: if at the end of that and some things that are not covered, this group can write more documents

17:40:31 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: +1

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1

17:41:07 <dauwhe> Action: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa

ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa

17:41:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for rdfa [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-37 - Lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for rdfa [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07].

17:41:20 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: call for volunteers

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: call for volunteers

17:41:43 <dauwhe> ... email Bill K. if you want to participate

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... email Bill K. if you want to participate

17:41:56 <dauwhe> ... do we need similar activity on use of URI

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... do we need similar activity on use of URI

17:42:03 <dauwhe> ivan: it's one thing

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Unknown ivan: it's one thing

17:42:16 <astein> Technical difficulties - I just wanted to add on to Bill's comment about publisher metadata earlier and the loss of information from the complicated ecosystem, that the worst offenders are from Open Access Journal publishers.

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Unknown astein: Technical difficulties - I just wanted to add on to Bill's comment about publisher metadata earlier and the loss of information from the complicated ecosystem, that the worst offenders are from Open Access Journal publishers.

17:42:38 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: the difference with URI issue is engaging with users of identifiers like crossref, editeur,

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: the difference with URI issue is engaging with users of identifiers like crossref, editeur,

17:43:02 <tzviya> q+

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Unknown tzviya: q+

17:43:05 <dauwhe> ... get unanimity from governance groups to express to their users to use their identifiers as URIs

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... get unanimity from governance groups to express to their users to use their identifiers as URIs

17:43:10 <dauwhe> ivan: there's disagreement

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Unknown ivan: there's disagreement

17:43:19 <dauwhe> ... on how to handle this

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... on how to handle this

17:43:28 <dauwhe> ... for many they don't understand why this is important

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... for many they don't understand why this is important

17:43:34 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: they are realizing

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: they are realizing

17:43:41 <dauwhe> ivan: crossref is recognizing this

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Unknown ivan: crossref is recognizing this

17:43:53 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: update to ISBN has expanded guidance on this

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: update to ISBN has expanded guidance on this

17:44:04 <dauwhe> ivan: it's not just issue of having URI

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Unknown ivan: it's not just issue of having URI

17:44:13 <dauwhe> ... but what happens when I try to dereference

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... but what happens when I try to dereference

17:44:18 <dauwhe> ... there there are disagreements

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... there there are disagreements

17:44:27 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I want separate group on thaat

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I want separate group on thaat

17:44:35 <dauwhe> ivan: Phil Archer will want to participate

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Unknown ivan: Phil Archer will want to participate

17:44:42 <dauwhe> ... he's activity lead for data

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... he's activity lead for data

17:45:06 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: do I have the leeway to extend scope as far as I am able to?

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: do I have the leeway to extend scope as far as I am able to?

17:45:21 <dauwhe> ... I know CA data library site which uses DOI

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... I know CA data library site which uses DOI

17:45:29 <dauwhe> ... can I bring them into conversation?

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... can I bring them into conversation?

17:45:37 <dauwhe> ivan: I know people at Data Site

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Unknown ivan: I know people at Data Site

17:45:49 <dauwhe> ... they are not as clearly using DOIs as URIs like crossref

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... they are not as clearly using DOIs as URIs like crossref

17:45:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: it's separate registration agency

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: it's separate registration agency

17:46:06 <tzviya> ack tzviya

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Unknown tzviya: ack tzviya

17:46:12 <dauwhe> ivan: we want DOIs as URI, I'm not sure if Data Site does this

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Unknown ivan: we want DOIs as URI, I'm not sure if Data Site does this

17:46:19 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's document first

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Unknown tzviya: let's document first

17:46:29 <dauwhe> ... there are a lots of organizations

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... there are a lots of organizations

17:46:46 <dauwhe> ... let's pull them together at some point

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... let's pull them together at some point

17:46:57 <dauwhe> ... i think of that as stage two

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... i think of that as stage two

17:47:09 <dauwhe> ... I talked to Phil ARcher about this, he'll have a lot to say

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... I talked to Phil ARcher about this, he'll have a lot to say

17:47:19 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I see both action items as information gathering

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I see both action items as information gathering

17:47:25 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's finish something

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Unknown tzviya: let's finish something

17:47:48 <dauwhe> mgylling: the action is registered

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Markus Gylling: the action is registered

17:47:54 <dauwhe> ... the marching orders seem clear

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... the marching orders seem clear

17:48:05 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: and we separate the two

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: and we separate the two

17:48:52 <dauwhe> Action: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations

ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations

17:48:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as uris and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-38 - Develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as uris and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07].

17:49:22 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: didn't get much feedback on github

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: didn't get much feedback on github

17:49:33 <dauwhe> ... rights metadata is important

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... rights metadata is important

17:49:40 <dauwhe> ... expressing in actionable way

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... expressing in actionable way

17:49:45 <dauwhe> .. they have two interests

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.. they have two interests

17:49:58 <dauwhe> ... one is how can I know at a granular level that I have the right to do X

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... one is how can I know at a granular level that I have the right to do X

17:50:05 <dauwhe> ... can I use a print image in my ebook?

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... can I use a print image in my ebook?

17:50:11 <dauwhe> ... goes beyond that to IP

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... goes beyond that to IP

17:50:20 <dauwhe> ... other question is how to monetize my IP

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... other question is how to monetize my IP

17:50:33 <dauwhe> ... how can I express rights on components of documents

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... how can I express rights on components of documents

17:50:42 <dauwhe> ... lets me police usage

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... lets me police usage

17:50:51 <dauwhe> ... can I license rights to this thing?

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... can I license rights to this thing?

17:50:59 <dauwhe> ... particularly important with images

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... particularly important with images

17:51:03 <ivan> q+

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Unknown ivan: q+

17:51:10 <dauwhe> ... we're working with life magazine photo archive

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... we're working with life magazine photo archive

17:51:23 <dauwhe> ... they were losing lots of money every year

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... they were losing lots of money every year

17:51:28 <tzviya> q+

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Unknown tzviya: q+

17:51:40 <dauwhe> ... intersects with royalty payments

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... intersects with royalty payments

17:52:03 <dauwhe> ... lots of folks working on this like IPTC

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... lots of folks working on this like IPTC

17:52:11 <dauwhe> ... working with W3C

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... working with W3C

17:52:14 <Karen_> q+

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Unknown Karen_: q+

17:52:17 <dauwhe> ... ODRL and RightsML

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... ODRL and RightsML

17:52:41 <dauwhe> ... BISG has a new priority to look at this from author and agent perspective

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... BISG has a new priority to look at this from author and agent perspective

17:52:57 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

17:53:11 <dauwhe> ... IDEAlliance has three components: contractual, usage, monitoring

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... IDEAlliance has three components: contractual, usage, monitoring

17:53:26 <dauwhe> ... we might be able to help

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... we might be able to help

17:53:38 <dauwhe> ... create an infrastructure in web tech

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... create an infrastructure in web tech

17:53:52 <mgylling> ack ivan

Markus Gylling: ack ivan

17:53:58 <dauwhe> ivan: you scare me

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Unknown ivan: you scare me

17:54:07 <dauwhe> ... rights metadata

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... rights metadata

17:54:16 <dauwhe> ... there were only CGs at W3C

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... there were only CGs at W3C

17:54:21 <dauwhe> ... it's not technical

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... it's not technical

17:54:31 <dauwhe> ... you need lawyers

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... you need lawyers

17:54:54 <dauwhe> ... and we don't have lawyers

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... and we don't have lawyers

17:55:06 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm thinking infrastructure

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I'm thinking infrastructure

17:55:18 <dauwhe> ivan: setting up another CG can be done

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Unknown ivan: setting up another CG can be done

17:55:32 <dauwhe> ... you need to talk to people who are already doing it

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... you need to talk to people who are already doing it

17:55:37 <dauwhe> ... I don't know what they would say

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... I don't know what they would say

17:55:45 <Zakim> - +1.217.721.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.217.721.aabb

17:55:51 <dauwhe> ... to turn it into w3c work item is a different thing

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... to turn it into w3c work item is a different thing

17:56:12 <dauwhe> ... if you have a CG then W3C does not endorse work

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... if you have a CG then W3C does not endorse work

17:56:33 <dauwhe> ... results may leave CG and go into other parts of W3C

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... results may leave CG and go into other parts of W3C

17:56:46 <dauwhe> ... endorsement in legal sphere is very tricky

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... endorsement in legal sphere is very tricky

17:57:03 <dauwhe> Karen_: DOn't know about any work in this area

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Unknown Karen_: DOn't know about any work in this area

17:57:21 <dauwhe> liam_: you must distinguish between rights identification and rights management

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Unknown liam_: you must distinguish between rights identification and rights management

17:57:26 <Karen_> s/Don't know about any work in this area at W3C

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Unknown Karen_: s/Don't know about any work in this area at W3C

17:57:44 <dauwhe> liam_: RDF says who the author is

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Unknown liam_: RDF says who the author is

17:57:51 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: but doesn't describe contract

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: but doesn't describe contract

17:58:21 <dauwhe> liam_: I agree with Ivan that finding a way of describing moral rights internationally in RDF, XML, or animated cat GIFs is scary

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Unknown liam_: I agree with Ivan that finding a way of describing moral rights internationally in RDF, XML, or animated cat GIFs is scary

17:58:34 <dauwhe> ... won't be achievable

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... won't be achievable

17:58:54 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm learning that my tendancy to bring siloed people together isn't a good fit for w3c

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I'm learning that my tendancy to bring siloed people together isn't a good fit for w3c

17:58:57 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't agree

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Unknown ivan: I don't agree

17:59:04 <dauwhe> ... we can bring together different parties

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... we can bring together different parties

17:59:10 <dauwhe> ... OA group started that way

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... OA group started that way

17:59:17 <astein> Question: something like the Creative Commons licenses beyond the open access sphere but expanded to a metadata scheme?

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Unknown Question: something like the Creative Commons licenses beyond the open access sphere but expanded to a metadata scheme? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown astein ]

17:59:22 <dauwhe> ... lots of discussion to bring people together

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... lots of discussion to bring people together

17:59:31 <dauwhe> ... is a success now

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... is a success now

17:59:47 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: started with OA CG, now a WG

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: started with OA CG, now a WG

17:59:50 <dauwhe> ivan: yes

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Unknown ivan: yes

18:00:08 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: is there a role for this IG in that?

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: is there a role for this IG in that?

18:00:58 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

18:01:22 <Karen_> q_

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Unknown Karen_: q_

18:01:25 <Karen_> q-

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Unknown Karen_: q-

18:01:32 <astein> Yes!

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Unknown astein: Yes!

18:01:34 <astein> that's Ayla

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Unknown astein: that's Ayla

18:01:50 <astein> I'm having microphone issues

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Unknown astein: I'm having microphone issues

18:01:55 <astein> I'm just trying to clarify

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Unknown astein: I'm just trying to clarify

18:02:02 <ivan> Present+ Ayla_Stein

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Ayla_Stein

18:02:08 <dauwhe> Karen_: copyright clearance center does this

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Unknown Karen_: copyright clearance center does this

18:02:17 <dauwhe> ... they are member of this group

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... they are member of this group

18:02:24 <dauwhe> ... talk to her

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... talk to her

18:02:32 <dauwhe> ivan: CC in one sense is good example

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Unknown ivan: CC in one sense is good example

18:02:44 <dauwhe> ... all licenses are espressed in RDF

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... all licenses are espressed in RDF

18:02:50 <dauwhe> ... they helped start RDFa

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... they helped start RDFa

18:03:03 <dauwhe> ... they way they worked is with lawyers

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... they way they worked is with lawyers

18:03:16 <dauwhe> ... it's legal issues and not technical issues

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... it's legal issues and not technical issues

18:03:23 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: liam, could you rephrase

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: liam, could you rephrase

18:03:37 <dauwhe> liam_: rights identification but not rights management

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Unknown liam_: rights identification but not rights management

18:03:53 <dauwhe> ... legal issues in both parts

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... legal issues in both parts

18:04:11 <dauwhe> tzviya: will need lawyer to help with tagging

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Unknown tzviya: will need lawyer to help with tagging

18:04:18 <dauwhe> ivan: you need international lawyers

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Unknown ivan: you need international lawyers

18:04:26 <dauwhe> liam_: I run stock image company

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Unknown liam_: I run stock image company

18:04:37 <dauwhe> ... I scan out-of-copyright books

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... I scan out-of-copyright books

18:04:54 <dauwhe> ... wikipedia articles about law are not by lawyers

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... wikipedia articles about law are not by lawyers

18:05:04 <dauwhe> ... copyright articles are similar

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... copyright articles are similar

18:05:05 <astein> Could we invite ALA's OITP or a Copyright/Intellectual Property/Law Librarian to collaborate on this?

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Unknown astein: Could we invite ALA's OITP or a Copyright/Intellectual Property/Law Librarian to collaborate on this?

18:05:35 <dauwhe> ... legal landscape is changing rapidly

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... legal landscape is changing rapidly

18:05:52 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: whether or not have this as potential activity

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: whether or not have this as potential activity

18:06:20 <dauwhe> ... do we want to include an activity that would try to bring together groups working on rights

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... do we want to include an activity that would try to bring together groups working on rights

18:06:39 <ivan> q+

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Unknown ivan: q+

18:06:41 <dauwhe> q+

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q+

18:06:46 <tzviya> ack tzviya

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Unknown tzviya: ack tzviya

18:06:52 <ivan> ack tzviya

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Unknown ivan: ack tzviya

18:06:58 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is one example of granular metadata

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Unknown tzviya: this is one example of granular metadata

18:07:04 <dauwhe> ... if we form a CG about this

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... if we form a CG about this

18:07:13 <dauwhe> ... we might have to for every other sort of granular metadata

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... we might have to for every other sort of granular metadata

18:07:24 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: this is picking something to focus on that's important

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: this is picking something to focus on that's important

18:07:40 <dauwhe> tzviya: the other possibility is that this can be addressed by annotations

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Unknown tzviya: the other possibility is that this can be addressed by annotations

18:07:43 <dauwhe> ivan: no

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Unknown ivan: no

18:07:56 <dauwhe> ... annotations give you framework to express something, but not what to express

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... annotations give you framework to express something, but not what to express

18:08:05 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: interoperability is the important thing

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: interoperability is the important thing

18:08:17 <dauwhe> ... it's so random it's not interoperable

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... it's so random it's not interoperable

18:08:24 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

18:08:30 <mgylling> ack ivan

Markus Gylling: ack ivan

18:08:30 <dauwhe> ... w3c can build infrastructure to make it interoperable

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... w3c can build infrastructure to make it interoperable

18:08:43 <astein> or IFLA to get this advice

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Unknown astein: or IFLA to get this advice

18:08:50 <dauwhe> ivan: having a CG that tries to reconcile these different vocabularies is a useful thing

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Unknown ivan: having a CG that tries to reconcile these different vocabularies is a useful thing

18:08:55 <madi> q+

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Unknown madi: q+

18:09:07 <dauwhe> ... to form that CG someone needs to get these partners to accept to work together

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... to form that CG someone needs to get these partners to accept to work together

18:09:19 <dauwhe> ... that somebody would be Bill Kasdorf

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... that somebody would be Bill Kasdorf

18:09:29 <dauwhe> ... whether you need backing of IG to do that is up to you

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... whether you need backing of IG to do that is up to you

18:09:45 <dauwhe> ... that's where IG would stop

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... that's where IG would stop

18:09:59 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: let me suggest this

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: let me suggest this

18:10:07 <dauwhe> ... if there's an interest in this group

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... if there's an interest in this group

18:10:14 <dauwhe> ... is it worth spending my time on?

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... is it worth spending my time on?

18:10:23 <dauwhe> ... I am in touch with these people

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... I am in touch with these people

18:10:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: none of those people are involved in this group

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Unknown tzviya: none of those people are involved in this group

18:11:03 <dauwhe> ivan: except heather

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Unknown ivan: except heather

18:11:16 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: BISG is also active in this group

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: BISG is also active in this group

18:11:35 <dauwhe> ... there are stakeholders in those groups who may be w3c members

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... there are stakeholders in those groups who may be w3c members

18:11:39 <mgylling> ack dauwhe

Markus Gylling: ack dauwhe

18:11:44 <dauwhe> ... IPTC has thomson reuters

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... IPTC has thomson reuters

18:12:32 <tzviya> dauwhe: this has taken a lot of time today and will take a lot of time if we invest time

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Unknown dauwhe: this has taken a lot of time today and will take a lot of time if we invest time [ Scribe Assist by Unknown tzviya ]

18:12:39 <mgylling> ack liam

Markus Gylling: ack liam

18:12:39 <Zakim> liam_, you wanted to say expression facility might be OK for publisher-provided info

Zakim IRC Bot: liam_, you wanted to say expression facility might be OK for publisher-provided info

18:12:50 <dauwhe> liam: I'd like to retract further

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Unknown liam: I'd like to retract further

18:12:58 <dauwhe> ... we had the web fonts work

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... we had the web fonts work

18:13:03 <dauwhe> ... there are some similar issues

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... there are some similar issues

18:13:09 <tzviya> ...we are a group that supports incorporating into web and can help once these groups figure out how they will work together

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Unknown tzviya: ...we are a group that supports incorporating into web and can help once these groups figure out how they will work together

18:13:14 <dauwhe> ... the font companies had to come to an agreement about font piracy

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... the font companies had to come to an agreement about font piracy

18:13:35 <dauwhe> ... people would download fonts intentionally or unintentionally

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... people would download fonts intentionally or unintentionally

18:13:44 <dauwhe> ... what we did was two-fold

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... what we did was two-fold

18:13:54 <dauwhe> ... WOFF fonts dont' work as desktop font

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... WOFF fonts dont' work as desktop font

18:14:12 <dauwhe> ... you'd have to use program, which is legal evidence of willful intent

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... you'd have to use program, which is legal evidence of willful intent

18:14:30 <dauwhe> ... it's like a fence around a swimming pool, which is an attractive nuisance in legal technology

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... it's like a fence around a swimming pool, which is an attractive nuisance in legal technology

18:14:41 <dauwhe> ... by showing willful intent, then you can prosecute

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... by showing willful intent, then you can prosecute

18:14:56 <dauwhe> ... and there is metadata in the fonts that includes info about the EULA

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... and there is metadata in the fonts that includes info about the EULA

18:15:08 <dauwhe> ... there is metadata in there that expresses rights

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... there is metadata in there that expresses rights

18:15:18 <dauwhe> ... but we didn't talk about the interpretation of those rights

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... but we didn't talk about the interpretation of those rights

18:15:25 <dauwhe> ... which were in XML by the way

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... which were in XML by the way

18:15:33 <dauwhe> ... but we don't say anthing about it

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... but we don't say anthing about it

18:15:40 <dauwhe> ... that could go a long way to being useful

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... that could go a long way to being useful

18:15:45 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that's a useful analogy

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: that's a useful analogy

18:15:51 <dauwhe> liam: that is the first point

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Unknown liam: that is the first point

18:16:05 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that outreach may not be about some major diplomatic effort

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: that outreach may not be about some major diplomatic effort

18:16:13 <dauwhe> ... but that we know you're working on this issue

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... but that we know you're working on this issue

18:16:19 <dauwhe> ... but are there issues with the web?

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... but are there issues with the web?

18:16:40 <dauwhe> ... this is why it's a metadata question--do we have a mechanism for associating metadata?

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... this is why it's a metadata question--do we have a mechanism for associating metadata?

18:16:58 <dauwhe> ivan: in case of WOFF, there were issues with how to package fonts

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Unknown ivan: in case of WOFF, there were issues with how to package fonts

18:17:12 <dauwhe> ... that's not the case here. We know where to put metadata if we have vocab

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... that's not the case here. We know where to put metadata if we have vocab

18:17:29 <dauwhe> ... but the vocab is what we don't have, and it's a translation of legal terms

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... but the vocab is what we don't have, and it's a translation of legal terms

18:17:34 <dauwhe> ... epub has too much metadata

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... epub has too much metadata

18:17:48 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: epub can have rights metadata

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: epub can have rights metadata

18:18:03 <dauwhe> ivan: it's not up to us to restrict what metadata you can use

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Unknown ivan: it's not up to us to restrict what metadata you can use

18:18:16 <dauwhe> liam: if you look at fonts in firefox, it has areas to display metadata

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Unknown liam: if you look at fonts in firefox, it has areas to display metadata

18:18:24 <dauwhe> ... whether it's worth going there I don't know

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... whether it's worth going there I don't know

18:18:31 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

18:18:34 <mgylling> ack madi

Markus Gylling: ack madi

18:18:36 <dauwhe> ... rights expression CG can bring interesting peopoe

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... rights expression CG can bring interesting peopoe

18:18:46 <dauwhe> madi: it is a huge headache

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Unknown madi: it is a huge headache

18:18:57 <dauwhe> ... if we succeed we'd accomplish something huge

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... if we succeed we'd accomplish something huge

18:19:02 <dauwhe> ... but I don't think it's likely

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... but I don't think it's likely

18:19:16 <dauwhe> ... lawyers don't think legal expression can be standardized

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... lawyers don't think legal expression can be standardized

18:19:25 <dauwhe> ... so they resist these vocabularies

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... so they resist these vocabularies

18:19:46 <dauwhe> ... maybe a CG with low expectations?

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... maybe a CG with low expectations?

18:19:56 <dauwhe> ... we can't do anything in a year

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... we can't do anything in a year

18:20:10 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: IDEAlliance is establishing a vocab to do three things

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: IDEAlliance is establishing a vocab to do three things

18:20:18 <dauwhe> ... one: do you have rights? Y/N

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... one: do you have rights? Y/N

18:20:34 <dauwhe> ... two: you have rights under condition

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... two: you have rights under condition

18:20:39 <dauwhe> ... third: consult the lawyer

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... third: consult the lawyer

18:20:53 <dauwhe> tzviya: that would be insufficient for most publishers

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Unknown tzviya: that would be insufficient for most publishers

18:21:06 <dauwhe> ... due to restrictions like fixed durations and so on

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... due to restrictions like fixed durations and so on

18:21:12 <dauwhe> ... this is too out of schope

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... this is too out of scope

18:21:16 <dauwhe> s/schope/scope/
18:21:32 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I just think this is important

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I just think this is important

18:21:49 <dauwhe> liam: if you make a CG I'll be in it

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Unknown liam: if you make a CG I'll be in it

18:22:13 <astein> conference ribbons

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Unknown astein: conference ribbons

18:22:15 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: is that OK with you?

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: is that OK with you?

18:22:22 <dauwhe> madi: we're working on it here for years

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Unknown madi: we're working on it here for years

18:22:33 <dauwhe> ... haven't moved the needle very far

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... haven't moved the needle very far

18:22:45 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

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Unknown ivan: rrsagent, draft minutes

18:22:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan

18:22:51 <dauwhe> mgylling: if your friends want to do a CG that's fine

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Markus Gylling: if your friends want to do a CG that's fine

18:23:04 <dauwhe> mgylling: I think we're about to end the session

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Markus Gylling: I think we're about to end the session

18:23:12 <dauwhe> ... do you want other suggestions?

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... do you want other suggestions?

18:23:51 <dauwhe> ivan: let's be realistic. to do both URI and RDF outreach docs is already a tall order

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Unknown ivan: let's be realistic. to do both URI and RDF outreach docs is already a tall order

18:23:57 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: and those would be good outcomes

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: and those would be good outcomes

18:24:08 <dauwhe> tzviya: we already have enough to do

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Unknown tzviya: we already have enough to do

18:24:13 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: is there consensus?

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: is there consensus?

18:24:15 <dauwhe> all: yes

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Unknown all: yes

18:24:25 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: so we'll focus on these

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: so we'll focus on these

18:24:38 <dauwhe> mgylling: it's 11:24, we're re-convening at 1PM

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Markus Gylling: it's 11:24, we're re-convening at 1PM

18:25:10 <dauwhe> mgylling: cindy and richard will come at 3PM

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Markus Gylling: cindy and richard will come at 3PM

18:25:19 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

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Unknown ivan: rrsagent, draft minutes

18:25:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan

18:25:28 <dauwhe> break type="lunch"

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break type="lunch"

18:25:35 <Zakim> -astein

Zakim IRC Bot: -astein

18:25:55 <Zakim> -madi

Zakim IRC Bot: -madi

19:58:48 <ivan> Topic: Accessibility (meeting with UUAG)

(No events recorded for 92 minutes)

3. Accessibility (meeting with UUAG)

19:58:56 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

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Unknown ivan: zakim, who is here?

19:58:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Seattle

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Seattle

19:58:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see mgylling, pkra, bradk__, dauwhe, tzviya, ivan, iank_, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see mgylling, pkra, bradk__, dauwhe, tzviya, ivan, iank_, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot

20:01:04 <Zakim> +pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra

20:02:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

20:02:56 <ivan> Present+ Jeanne_Spellman

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Jeanne_Spellman

20:03:50 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben De Meester

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Unknown bjdmeest: Present+ Ben De Meester

20:03:57 <ivan> scribenick: bjdmeest

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(Scribe set to Unknown bjdmeest)

20:05:58 <bjdmeest> mgylling: the plan is for Deborah to update us

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Markus Gylling: the plan is for Deborah to update us

20:06:10 <bjdmeest> [introductions]

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[introductions]

20:06:12 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jutta

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Unknown Jan: zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jutta

20:06:13 <Zakim> +Jutta; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Jutta; got it

20:06:52 <Jan> Jan Richards

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Unknown Jan: Jan Richards

20:08:18 <Jan> Jutta Treviranus

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Unknown Jan: Jutta Treviranus

20:08:48 <pkra> Present+ Peter Krautzberger

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Unknown pkra: Present+ Peter Krautzberger

20:08:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> Robin Seaman

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Robin Seaman

20:09:25 <bjdmeest> mgylling: Deborah, would you recap the previous descussions, to get everyone up to date?

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Markus Gylling: Deborah, would you recap the previous descussions, to get everyone up to date?

20:09:28 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tim_Boland

20:09:32 <ivan> Present+ Susann_Keohane

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Susann_Keohane

20:09:35 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: there were a couple of meetings

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Unknown dkaplan: there were a couple of meetings

20:09:43 <bjdmeest> ... about: what should we do?

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... about: what should we do?

20:09:55 <bjdmeest> ... Charles and I became heads of the accessibility task force

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... Charles and I became heads of the accessibility task force

20:10:27 <Jutta> Jutta Treviranus, Chair WAI ATAG, Director Inclusive Design Research Centre, OCAD University

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Unknown Jutta: Jutta Treviranus, Chair WAI ATAG, Director Inclusive Design Research Centre, OCAD University

20:10:36 <bjdmeest> ... together with others: they would explain how they would work about accessiblility

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... together with others: they would explain how they would work about accessiblility

20:10:59 <bjdmeest> ... they have been looking at techniques: this is fine, this is not (needs expanding)

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... they have been looking at techniques: this is fine, this is not (needs expanding)

20:11:31 <bjdmeest> ???: they got a lot of puswhback by W3C, wanted more use cases

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Unknown clapierre: they got a lot of pushback by W3C WCAG WG, wanted more use cases

20:11:44 <dauwhe> s/???/clapierre/
20:11:50 <tzviya> s/???/clapierre
20:12:03 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: so, our idea is to start that process for digital publishing, mirrorring that effort

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Unknown dkaplan: so, our idea is to start that process for digital publishing, mirrorring that effort

20:12:04 <jeanne> s/puswhback by W3C/pushback by W3C WCAG WG
20:12:27 <bjdmeest> ... question: what would be most helpfull when we start that process?

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... question: what would be most helpfull when we start that process?

20:12:55 <bjdmeest> Jan: we deal with any tool that is used by authors in order to produce a webbased experience for another user (def authoring tool)

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Unknown Jan: we deal with any tool that is used by authors in order to produce a webbased experience for another user (def authoring tool)

20:13:10 <bjdmeest> ... not considering changing your own experience

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... not considering changing your own experience

20:13:34 <bjdmeest> ... a lot of experience, guidelines, with a wide variety (plugins, CMS, Dreamweaver, blogs...)

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... a lot of experience, guidelines, with a wide variety (plugins, CMS, Dreamweaver, blogs...)

20:13:45 <bjdmeest> ... we think DPUB is covered, so a review would be usefull

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... we think DPUB is covered, so a review would be usefull

20:13:53 <bjdmeest> ... there is a ref doc, examples

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... there is a ref doc, examples

20:14:00 <bjdmeest> ... so DPUB examples would be very useful

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... so DPUB examples would be very useful

20:14:14 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20/

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Unknown tzviya: http://www.w3.org/TR/IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20/

20:14:21 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: If we wanted to look into DPUB examples, or existing examples?

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Unknown dkaplan: If we wanted to look into DPUB examples, or existing examples?

20:14:30 <jeanne> also Overview of ATAG -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/atag-glance.php

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Unknown jeanne: also Overview of ATAG -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/atag-glance.php

20:14:44 <bjdmeest> Jan: we have something like: have checks for accessibility, varies a whole lot

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Unknown Jan: we have something like: have checks for accessibility, varies a whole lot

20:15:00 <bjdmeest> ... we don't do techniques, but we provide examples of what if might look like

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... we don't do techniques, but we provide examples of what if might look like

20:15:20 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

20:15:30 <bjdmeest> ... there was an old document about techniques, but there was confusion, so we changed the name to 'implementing'

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... there was an old document about techniques, but there was confusion, so we changed the name to 'implementing'

20:15:56 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: if we look into those documents, and find stuff that might be expanded, how to do that?

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Unknown dkaplan: if we look into those documents, and find stuff that might be expanded, how to do that?

20:16:55 <bjdmeest> Jan: what will hopefully happen, is that we get new examples for DPUB (nicely explained) for success criteria eg 3.1.1, and that will be put into the doc, gets into new publication (this doc is a note)

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Unknown Jan: what will hopefully happen, is that we get new examples for DPUB (nicely explained) for success criteria eg 3.1.1, and that will be put into the doc, gets into new publication (this doc is a note)

20:17:05 <bjdmeest> ... there is no deadline

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... there is no deadline

20:17:13 <bjdmeest> ... the doc is called Implementing ATAG

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... the doc is called Implementing ATAG

20:17:18 <bjdmeest> ... ATAG has 2 main parts

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... ATAG has 2 main parts

20:17:36 <bjdmeest> ... what should you do in content to make that content rendered accessible?

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... what should you do in content to make that content rendered accessible?

20:17:54 <bjdmeest> part A: author interface needs to be accessible

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part A: author interface needs to be accessible

20:18:34 <bjdmeest> part B: production accessibility

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part B: production accessibility

20:19:49 <bjdmeest> Jan: it is more important for the used tools to support accessibility, then that a group publishes accessibility guidelines

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Unknown Jan: it is more important for the used tools to support accessibility, then that a group publishes accessibility guidelines

20:20:46 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tim_Boland

20:20:50 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: how do you make an interface accessible?

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Unknown dkaplan: how do you make an interface accessible?

20:21:08 <bjdmeest> Jan: most will involve part A, our first guideline is: meet WCAG

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Unknown Jan: most will involve part A, our first guideline is: meet WCAG

20:21:22 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: are there specific needs for DPUB about what is produced?

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Unknown dkaplan: are there specific needs for DPUB about what is produced?

20:21:37 <bjdmeest> ... is at the publishers level

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... is at the publishers level

20:21:48 <bjdmeest> Jan: consumers are tool devs (microsoft, adobe, ...)

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Unknown Jan: consumers are tool devs (microsoft, adobe, ...)

20:22:12 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: the reason why this is relevant, because a lot of tools are built inhouse, to meet publishing needs

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Unknown dkaplan: the reason why this is relevant, because a lot of tools are built inhouse, to meet publishing needs

20:22:30 <bjdmeest> ... not just aimed at generic content, aimed at workflow

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... not just aimed at generic content, aimed at workflow

20:22:57 <bjdmeest> Jan: if you read the doc, so many support the ease of user experience

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Unknown Jan: if you read the doc, so many support the ease of user experience

20:23:12 <bjdmeest> ... if tools are not accessible, a human is needed to fix stuff later on

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... if tools are not accessible, a human is needed to fix stuff later on

20:23:32 <bjdmeest> ... if you are creating a long description, that needs to be stored and reused as much as possible

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... if you are creating a long description, that needs to be stored and reused as much as possible

20:23:42 <tzviya> q+

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Unknown tzviya: q+

20:24:05 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: that is mostly what i think about in DPUB: creators have a vast amount of images, the company that is creating the tool has no idea how to tag those images

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Unknown dkaplan: that is mostly what i think about in DPUB: creators have a vast amount of images, the company that is creating the tool has no idea how to tag those images

20:24:19 <bjdmeest> ... that is a unique req

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... that is a unique req

20:24:21 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

20:24:43 <bjdmeest> Jan: You won't find something like: content HAS to comply to... that is impossible to enforce.

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Unknown Jan: You won't find something like: content HAS to comply to... that is impossible to enforce.

20:24:55 <bjdmeest> ... we try to flexible on the design of the doc

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... we try to flexible on the design of the doc

20:24:56 <mgylling> ack tzviya

Markus Gylling: ack tzviya

20:25:40 <bjdmeest> tzviya: if worked for a publisher for 14 years, where would this fit? because I have never encountered something like this, eg, an image _must_ have an alt text

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Unknown tzviya: if worked for a publisher for 14 years, where would this fit? because I have never encountered something like this, eg, an image _must_ have an alt text

20:25:49 <bjdmeest> Jan: it is more about guidelines, not rules

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Unknown Jan: it is more about guidelines, not rules

20:26:13 <bjdmeest> ... eg not a government legislation (thou shalt not)

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... eg not a government legislation (thou shalt not)

20:26:24 <bjdmeest> tzviya: not even a guideline encountered

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Unknown tzviya: not even a guideline encountered

20:26:46 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: eg, word does do grammatic checking, but no accessible checking

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Unknown dkaplan: eg, word does do grammatic checking, but no accessible checking

20:27:09 <bjdmeest> Jan: they do have an accessibility checker, hard to turn on, but it exists

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Unknown Jan: they do have an accessibility checker, hard to turn on, but it exists

20:27:24 <bjdmeest> tzviya: point is that publishers probably don't know about this

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Unknown tzviya: point is that publishers probably don't know about this

20:27:32 <bjdmeest> Jan: this doc is aimed to tool devs

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Unknown Jan: this doc is aimed to tool devs

20:27:53 <bjdmeest> ... why use tooling: to hide ugly details

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... why use tooling: to hide ugly details

20:28:03 <bjdmeest> ... we say: there is an extra accessible layer on top

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... we say: there is an extra accessible layer on top

20:28:12 <dkaplan3> q+

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Unknown dkaplan3: q+

20:28:17 <bjdmeest> jeanne: the text book publishers are going to be more aware of this

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Unknown jeanne: the text book publishers are going to be more aware of this

20:28:31 <bjdmeest> tzviya: i am part, no they are not

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Unknown tzviya: i am part, no they are not

20:28:38 <bjdmeest> jeanne: there are legal requirements

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Unknown jeanne: there are legal requirements

20:28:48 <bjdmeest> Jan: ATAG is not well know compared to WCAG

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Unknown Jan: ATAG is not well know compared to WCAG

20:28:59 <ivan> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Frederick_Hirsch

20:29:16 <bjdmeest> Jeanne: there are legal reqs for eg students with disabilities, we try to make it easier for people to do the right thing

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Unknown Jeanne: there are legal reqs for eg students with disabilities, we try to make it easier for people to do the right thing

20:29:27 <bjdmeest> ... there is a big market for accessibility

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... there is a big market for accessibility

20:29:36 <mgylling> ack dkaplan

Markus Gylling: ack dkaplan

20:29:40 <bjdmeest> ... an opportunity

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... an opportunity

20:29:58 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: is ATAG only intended for the authoring tools, or also for the conversion tools?

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Unknown dkaplan: is ATAG only intended for the authoring tools, or also for the conversion tools?

20:30:18 <bjdmeest> Jan: it does talk about conversion, section about conserving accessibility, sometimes that cannot be fully automated

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Unknown Jan: it does talk about conversion, section about conserving accessibility, sometimes that cannot be fully automated

20:30:33 <bjdmeest> ... sometimes, prompts are needed, human intervention

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... sometimes, prompts are needed, human intervention

20:30:35 <pkra> wordpress and OERpub editor are good examples for simple approaches with high "conversion rates" (i..e, making users actually input the content)

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Unknown pkra: wordpress and OERpub editor are good examples for simple approaches with high "conversion rates" (i..e, making users actually input the content)

20:31:11 <bjdmeest> ... we call those: recoding transformations, there is also structural transformations, and 'pretty print' transformations

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... we call those: recoding transformations, there is also structural transformations, and 'pretty print' transformations

20:31:31 <bjdmeest> mgylling: you are in CR, ammending to the current doc is not an issue?

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Markus Gylling: you are in CR, ammending to the current doc is not an issue?

20:31:33 <bjdmeest> Jan: correct

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Unknown Jan: correct

20:31:55 <bjdmeest> mgylling: dkaplan, you wanted to add to this doc?

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Markus Gylling: dkaplan, you wanted to add to this doc?

20:32:00 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: yes, mostly examples

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Unknown dkaplan: yes, mostly examples

20:32:08 <bjdmeest> mgylling: what is the concrete approach?

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Markus Gylling: what is the concrete approach?

20:32:40 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: after talking to cathy and kim, asking: how much time into this? amswer: 2-8 hours a week

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Unknown dkaplan: after talking to cathy and kim, asking: how much time into this? amswer: 2-8 hours a week

20:33:10 <bjdmeest> ... they wanted as much accessibility in there as possible, very explicit workflow (why do we change something)

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... they wanted as much accessibility in there as possible, very explicit workflow (why do we change something)

20:33:34 <bjdmeest> Jan: techniques are special in WCAG, sufficient techniques, advisory techniques,

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Unknown Jan: techniques are special in WCAG, sufficient techniques, advisory techniques,

20:33:41 <bjdmeest> ... there is more process around that

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... there is more process around that

20:33:58 <bjdmeest> ... ;you would just send us examples, and then it is published

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... ;you would just send us examples, and then it is published

20:34:17 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: there should be a wordsmith expert

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Unknown dkaplan: there should be a wordsmith expert

20:34:33 <bjdmeest> ... there was a lot of misunderstanding the specific language for a specific framework

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... there was a lot of misunderstanding the specific language for a specific framework

20:34:39 <bjdmeest> ... we need help on that for WCAG

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... we need help on that for WCAG

20:34:45 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

20:35:05 <bjdmeest> Jeanne: idea: why not just write a note: DPUB using ATAG and/or accessibility guideline practices

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Unknown Jeanne: idea: why not just write a note: DPUB using ATAG and/or accessibility guideline practices

20:35:15 <bjdmeest> ... you could focus on DPUB, relevant to the process

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... you could focus on DPUB, relevant to the process

20:35:24 <bjdmeest> ... then you have a single linking point

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... then you have a single linking point

20:35:37 <bjdmeest> ... and it would be _your_ note, without fuzziness of language

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... and it would be _your_ note, without fuzziness of language

20:35:53 <bjdmeest> ... and it can refer to ATAG, WCAG, ...

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... and it can refer to ATAG, WCAG, ...

20:36:19 <bjdmeest> ... people could go to that one, in DPUB speak

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... people could go to that one, in DPUB speak

20:37:01 <bjdmeest> mgylling: about fixed-layout ebooks: in accessibility, it might be horrible (tool that exports fixed epub is horrible)

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Markus Gylling: about fixed-layout ebooks: in accessibility, it might be horrible (tool that exports fixed epub is horrible)

20:37:16 <bjdmeest> ... contextualized note could go very deep into this

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... contextualized note could go very deep into this

20:38:13 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: [superseded notices is not clear]

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Unknown dkaplan: [superseded notices is not clear]

20:38:27 <bjdmeest> ... would a separate note get the right attention

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... would a separate note get the right attention

20:38:36 <bjdmeest> clapierre: could there be a dual link from ATAG

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Unknown clapierre: could there be a dual link from ATAG

20:38:45 <bjdmeest> Jan: we could

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Unknown Jan: we could

20:38:59 <bjdmeest> ... we know about fixed layout

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... we know about fixed layout

20:39:26 <bjdmeest> ... a remark: ATAG doesn't judge (what a flash tool?! shame on you!), it guides the user as much as possible

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... a remark: ATAG doesn't judge (what a flash tool?! shame on you!), it guides the user as much as possible

20:39:32 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

20:40:00 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: our role is evangelizing this stuff, as we are part of a big organization, we will make sure that this separate note gets attention

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: the role of the BISG Accessibility Working Group is evangelizing this stuff, as we are part of a big organization, we will make sure that this separate note gets attention

20:40:12 <bjdmeest> mgylling: mobile folks didn't chose a separate note?

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Markus Gylling: mobile folks didn't chose a separate note?

20:40:38 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: DPUB is a specific industry, whereas mobile is part of the product of every kind of industry

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Unknown dkaplan: DPUB is a specific industry, whereas mobile is part of the product of every kind of industry

20:40:44 <bjdmeest> .. they are not the same

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.. they are not the same

20:41:08 <bjdmeest> clapierre: we will run into the same issues (ereader on your desktop vs on your tablet, etc)

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Unknown clapierre: we will run into the same issues (ereader on your desktop vs on your tablet, etc)

20:41:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/our role/the role of the BISG Accessibility Working Group
20:41:49 <bjdmeest> Jan: they kind of melt together (responsive design), it did make sense to do what they did

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Unknown Jan: they kind of melt together (responsive design), it did make sense to do what they did

20:42:12 <bjdmeest> dkaplan; we should be very carefull, if we create our own note

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dkaplan; we should be very carefull, if we create our own note

20:42:29 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

20:42:32 <bjdmeest> ... it should use the 'approved' language

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... it should use the 'approved' language

20:42:50 <bjdmeest> clapierre: there may be issues that, where a note is not enough

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Unknown clapierre: there may be issues that, where a note is not enough

20:43:14 <bjdmeest> ... eg, image of a drop cap must be spoken out by a11y tools correctly

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... eg, image of a drop cap must be spoken out by a11y tools correctly

20:43:21 <bjdmeest> ... we might go up to W3C standard

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... we might go up to W3C standard

20:43:34 <bjdmeest> Jan: I would love example of DPUB for inclusion into our doc

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Unknown Jan: I would love example of DPUB for inclusion into our doc

20:43:51 <bjdmeest> mgylling: the more propagation, the better, the higher we get, the more discoverability

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Markus Gylling: the more propagation, the better, the higher we get, the more discoverability

20:44:15 <bjdmeest> ???: what about Oreilly Atlas? a11y platforms?

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Robin Seaman: what about Oreilly Atlas? a11y platforms?

20:44:24 <bjdmeest> Jan: that would be part A of our doc

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Unknown Jan: that would be part A of our doc

20:44:35 <tzviya> s/???/Robin Seaman
20:44:39 <bjdmeest> ... the biggest barrier is attitude

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... the biggest barrier is attitude

20:45:00 <mgylling> ack liam

Markus Gylling: ack liam

20:45:00 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to pint out fixed layout might make a useful example of a challenge

Zakim IRC Bot: liam, you wanted to pint out fixed layout might make a useful example of a challenge

20:45:04 <bjdmeest> ... positive feedback loop is good

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... positive feedback loop is good

20:45:07 <Jutta> virtuous cycle

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Unknown Jutta: virtuous cycle

20:45:27 <bjdmeest> liam: about fixed layout: two kinds

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Unknown liam: about fixed layout: two kinds

20:45:35 <bjdmeest> 1: ipad: every page is a bmp

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Unknown 1: ipad: every page is a bmp

20:46:03 <bjdmeest> ... without judging, fixed layout is a challenge, good example for a11y

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... without judging, fixed layout is a challenge, good example for a11y

20:46:32 <bjdmeest> ... drop cap is another (css mech for that now, improves a11y), but tools are lagging

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... drop cap is another (css mech for that now, improves a11y), but tools are lagging

20:46:43 <bjdmeest> dhauwe: there are still problems

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Unknown dhauwe: there are still problems

20:47:12 <bjdmeest> liam: someone with a11y needs using an authoring tool, vs creating a11y content

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Unknown liam: someone with a11y needs using an authoring tool, vs creating a11y content

20:47:28 <bjdmeest> Jan: you can have non-a11y tools that produce a11y content, and vice versa

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Unknown Jan: you can have non-a11y tools that produce a11y content, and vice versa

20:47:37 <liam> [2 - svg]

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Unknown liam: [2 - svg]

20:47:44 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

20:48:04 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: is there any sort of validator for a11y?

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: is there any sort of validator for a11y?

20:48:48 <bjdmeest> Jan: there is a mix: tools that return report using a server, integrated tools (eg Word)

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Unknown Jan: there is a mix: tools that return report using a server, integrated tools (eg Word)

20:49:14 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: there is a master EPUB checker, independent of the tools, is there something authorative like that?

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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: there is a master EPUB checker, independent of the tools, is there something authorative like that?

20:49:28 <bjdmeest> Jan: yes, eg EMWeave

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Unknown Jan: yes, eg EMWeave

20:49:53 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: that is actually impossible

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Unknown dkaplan: that is actually impossible

20:50:01 <bjdmeest> ... epubcheck is something like doing a checksum

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... epubcheck is something like doing a checksum

20:50:11 <pkra> it does a bit more these days... suggestions on code quality.

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Unknown pkra: it does a bit more these days... suggestions on code quality.

20:50:38 <bjdmeest> Jan: not so different than spelling and grammar, they flag for human judgement

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Unknown Jan: not so different than spelling and grammar, they flag for human judgement

20:50:41 <Jutta> checking after authoring is also not as useful as prompting and checking during authoring

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Unknown Jutta: checking after authoring is also not as useful as prompting and checking during authoring

20:50:49 <bjdmeest> ... closer to that than validity checking

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... closer to that than validity checking

20:50:59 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

20:51:10 <fettes> q+

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Unknown fettes: q+

20:51:52 <bjdmeest> ... everybody needs to know some, there are also some experts out there

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... everybody needs to know some, there are also some experts out there

20:52:12 <bjdmeest> Jeanne: there are a11y checkers for HTML, to talk to them for an EPUB a11y checker

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Unknown Jeanne: there are a11y checkers for HTML, to talk to them for an EPUB a11y checker

20:52:41 <Jutta> an example of integrated checking in EPub is Open Author

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Unknown Jutta: an example of integrated checking in EPub is Open Author

20:52:59 <mgylling> ack fettes

Markus Gylling: ack fettes

20:53:04 <bjdmeest> ... somthings can be flagged for humans to check, some things can be automated

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... somthings can be flagged for humans to check, some things can be automated

20:53:33 <bjdmeest> fettes: ebpucheck is nice, but if you use a tool that creates epubs, if that is a wrong epub, you have a problem

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Unknown fettes: ebpucheck is nice, but if you use a tool that creates epubs, if that is a wrong epub, you have a problem

20:53:43 <dkaplan3> q+

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Unknown dkaplan3: q+

20:53:46 <bjdmeest> ... iBooks uses warnings

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... iBooks uses warnings

20:54:08 <bjdmeest> ... checker should be integrated into the tool

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... checker should be integrated into the tool

20:54:42 <bjdmeest> mgylling: to take away: the separate note thing

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Markus Gylling: to take away: the separate note thing

20:55:04 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: more take away: we should also keep you guys in the loop

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Unknown dkaplan: more take away: we should also keep you guys in the loop

20:55:19 <bjdmeest> ... so stuff might be incorporated into the ATAG document

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... so stuff might be incorporated into the ATAG document

20:55:50 <bjdmeest> clapierre: we will get going, an hour a week, we will pull you guys in, some point or another

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Unknown clapierre: we will get going, an hour a week, we will pull you guys in, some point or another

20:55:55 <bjdmeest> Jan: okay

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Unknown Jan: okay

20:55:55 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

20:56:31 <bjdmeest> mgylling: BISG does something about a11y for fixed layout?

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Markus Gylling: BISG does something about a11y for fixed layout?

20:56:34 <bjdmeest> mgylling: yes

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Markus Gylling: yes

20:56:41 <bjdmeest> ... i wrote that section

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... i wrote that section

20:57:14 <bjdmeest> dhauwe: mostly warnings, how users deal with that, is their choice

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Unknown dauwhe: mostly warnings, how users deal with that, is their choice

20:57:29 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we should make sure there are no parallel notes out there

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Markus Gylling: we should make sure there are no parallel notes out there

20:57:38 <dauwhe> s/dhauwe/dauwhe/
20:57:49 <bjdmeest> Bill_kasdorf: agreed, no duplication (there is already a lot of duplicate stuff)

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Unknown Bill_kasdorf: agreed, no duplication (there is already a lot of duplicate stuff)

20:58:03 <bjdmeest> ... we will not add to the problem, we will try to shine a light

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... we will not add to the problem, we will try to shine a light

20:58:12 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: could someone of that group join us?

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Unknown dkaplan: could someone of that group join us?

20:58:17 <bjdmeest> tzviya: I can

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Unknown tzviya: I can

20:58:24 <bjdmeest> Robin: me too

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Unknown Robin: me too

20:58:40 <bjdmeest> mgylling: thanks y'all!

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Markus Gylling: thanks y'all!

20:58:41 <pkra> clap clap

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Unknown pkra: clap clap

20:59:01 <Zakim> -pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra

21:07:37 <Zakim> -Jutta

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -Jutta

21:14:18 <ivan> Present+ Xiaoqian_Wu

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(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Unknown ivan: Present+ Xiaoqian_Wu

21:14:32 <ivan> Topic: Planning for the future of the IG

4. Planning for the future of the IG

21:15:34 <bjdmeest> mgylling: talk about actions items, and logistics

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Markus Gylling: talk about actions items, and logistics

21:16:37 <bjdmeest> ... to make sure actions and marching orders are clear

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... to make sure actions and marching orders are clear

21:17:09 <bjdmeest> karen: i want to mention: converations with other global regions (ie, indian publishing community)

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Unknown karen: i want to mention: converations with other global regions (ie, indian publishing community)

21:17:17 <bjdmeest> ... could be short agenda item

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... could be short agenda item

21:17:37 <bjdmeest> topic: pagination

5. pagination

21:18:00 <bjdmeest> tzviya: adding section about spread behaviour at latin req

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Unknown tzviya: adding section about spread behaviour at latin req

21:18:26 <bjdmeest> ... marcus and liam will have a fun time creating the page layout req

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... marcus and liam will have a fun time creating the page layout req

21:18:37 <bjdmeest> ... I will give pdf examples of paginated content

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... I will give pdf examples of paginated content

21:19:07 <bjdmeest> dauwhe: I can triage them, we may need to decide how to communicate the insights they will provide

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Unknown dauwhe: I can triage them, we may need to decide how to communicate the insights they will provide

21:19:17 <bjdmeest> ivan: we can put the big ones on the W3C site

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Unknown ivan: we can put the big ones on the W3C site

21:19:28 <bjdmeest> dauwhe: or in scope for latin req

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Unknown dauwhe: or in scope for latin req

21:19:41 <bjdmeest> ... could be small snippets

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... could be small snippets

21:19:55 <bjdmeest> tzviya: I will do small snippets (1-2 pages)

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Unknown tzviya: I will do small snippets (1-2 pages)

21:20:02 <bjdmeest> liam: is this in scope for paged layout?

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Unknown liam: is this in scope for paged layout?

21:20:14 <liam> http://kesselstreet.tripod.com/notmine/absolute_learning.gif

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Unknown liam: http://kesselstreet.tripod.com/notmine/absolute_learning.gif

21:20:59 <bjdmeest> tzviya: bus/business use case is for Karen

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Unknown tzviya: bus/business use case is for Karen

21:21:08 <bjdmeest> ivan: Karen will collect, everyone should help

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Unknown ivan: Karen will collect, everyone should help

21:21:33 <bjdmeest> tzviya: perhaps Paul?

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Unknown tzviya: perhaps Paul?

21:22:15 <bjdmeest> mgylling: what about time commitments? now, everything has one week due, seems not possible

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Markus Gylling: what about time commitments? now, everything has one week due, seems not possible

21:22:26 <bjdmeest> tzviya: I can give examples withing 2 weeks

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Unknown tzviya: I can give examples withing 2 weeks

21:22:48 <bjdmeest> ... volunteerism is a general problem

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... volunteerism is a general problem

21:23:02 <bjdmeest> ivan: very specific jobs might be easier to find volunteers

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Unknown ivan: very specific jobs might be easier to find volunteers

21:23:25 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we need timelines, we cannot fix volunteers atm

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Markus Gylling: we need timelines, we cannot fix volunteers atm

21:25:07 <bjdmeest> dauwhe: I will add to the latin req by thanksgiving (27/11)

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Unknown dauwhe: I will add to the latin req by thanksgiving (27/11)

21:25:41 <bjdmeest> [updates are being done in www.w3.org/dpub/ig/track/actions/open ]

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[updates are being done in www.w3.org/dpub/ig/track/actions/open ]

21:27:23 <bjdmeest> [updates are further being done in the actions page, deadlines are being set]

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[updates are further being done in the actions page, deadlines are being set]

21:29:34 <bjdmeest> ivan: [about bus case] when do we have a list of names we can act upon?

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Unknown ivan: [about bus case] when do we have a list of names we can act upon?

21:29:55 <bjdmeest> ... we really concentrate on the current resources (only books, might change in the future)

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... we really concentrate on the current resources (only books, might change in the future)

21:30:14 <bjdmeest> mgylling: was this a good idea?

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Markus Gylling: was this a good idea?

21:30:19 <bjdmeest> karen: it would be useful

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Unknown karen: it would be useful

21:30:39 <bjdmeest> ivan: we will have on this and on EPUBWEB discussions with the browser vendors

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Unknown ivan: we will have on this and on EPUBWEB discussions with the browser vendors

21:30:50 <bjdmeest> ... I think as well this doc will be very useful

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... I think as well this doc will be very useful

21:31:08 <bjdmeest> tzviya: so this bizz case doc by the end of november?

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Unknown tzviya: so this bizz case doc by the end of november?

21:31:10 <bjdmeest> karen: yes

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Unknown karen: yes

21:31:30 <bjdmeest> topic: role-stuff

6. role-stuff

21:31:59 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we are good to go, we are creating a TF under PF that will take a subset of EPUB structural semantics, do stuff (OWLifying)

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Markus Gylling: we are good to go, we are creating a TF under PF that will take a subset of EPUB structural semantics, do stuff (OWLifying)

21:32:16 <bjdmeest> ... headed by tzviya and me, with contributions of mark ???

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... headed by tzviya and me, with contributions of mark ???

21:32:32 <bjdmeest> ... charles and deborah as well

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... charles and deborah as well

21:32:46 <bjdmeest> mgylling: the action is to review and narrow the list

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Markus Gylling: the action is to review and narrow the list

21:32:52 <bjdmeest> ... by mid december?

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... by mid december?

21:33:03 <bjdmeest> tzviyah: yes, and we will talk to Paul?

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Unknown tzviyah: yes, and we will talk to Paul?

21:33:12 <bjdmeest> mgylling: I'll do that

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Markus Gylling: I'll do that

21:33:45 <bjdmeest> ivan: I will try to understand the OWL thing, what they do

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Unknown ivan: I will try to understand the OWL thing, what they do

21:34:08 <bjdmeest> ... remove this separate action, and add me to the previous one

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... remove this separate action, and add me to the previous one

21:34:31 <bjdmeest> topic: stem-meeting actions

7. stem-meeting actions

21:34:49 <bjdmeest> tzviyah: survey send out early november, results by end november

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Unknown tzviyah: survey send out early november, results by end november

21:35:03 <bjdmeest> ... by Peter

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... by Peter

21:35:11 <bjdmeest> ... in time by force11

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... in time by force11

21:35:18 <bjdmeest> ivan: force11 is in January

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Unknown ivan: force11 is in January

21:35:58 <bjdmeest> topic: metadata actions

8. metadata actions

21:36:16 <bjdmeest> Bill_kasdorf: actions are depending on volunteers (I already got some)

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Unknown Bill_kasdorf: actions are depending on volunteers (I already got some)

21:36:31 <bjdmeest> ... by myself, I could commit to one in november, but there are volunteers

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... by myself, I could commit to one in november, but there are volunteers

21:37:02 <bjdmeest> ivan: I think both actions are comparable in size

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Unknown ivan: I think both actions are comparable in size

21:37:13 <bjdmeest> Bill_kasdorf: I am busy till mid november

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Unknown Bill_kasdorf: I am busy till mid november

21:37:22 <bjdmeest> ivan: so commit to both by mid december?

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Unknown ivan: so commit to both by mid december?

21:37:28 <bjdmeest> bill_kasdorf: yeah

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Unknown bill_kasdorf: yeah

21:37:44 <bjdmeest> ivan: so current document should be closed down.

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Unknown ivan: so current document should be closed down.

21:38:19 <bjdmeest> mgylling: also for rob, to finalize annotation

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Markus Gylling: also for rob, to finalize annotation

21:38:55 <bjdmeest> ... use cases

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... use cases

21:41:28 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: i will send out an email: we will do a11y reset, and ask to join again

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Unknown dkaplan: i will send out an email: we will do a11y reset, and ask to join again

21:41:50 <bjdmeest> ... so people with not that many actions: we are superfun to work with! We have candy!

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... so people with not that many actions: we are superfun to work with! We have candy!

21:42:21 <clapierre1> http://diagramcenter.org/54-9-tips-for-creating-accessible-epub-3-files.html

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Unknown clapierre1: http://diagramcenter.org/54-9-tips-for-creating-accessible-epub-3-files.html

21:42:41 <bjdmeest> clapierre: I added a benetech file with tips for a11y for EPUB

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Unknown clapierre: I added a benetech file with tips for a11y for EPUB

21:42:57 <bjdmeest> ... we think that that list of tips will be linked back to the a11y note, that will link to WCAG etc

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... we think that that list of tips will be linked back to the a11y note, that will link to WCAG etc

21:43:44 <bjdmeest> tzviya: maybe an extra F2F, during a conference maybe? (BEA, that is together with IDPF)

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Unknown tzviya: maybe an extra F2F, during a conference maybe? (BEA, that is together with IDPF)

21:43:47 <bjdmeest> ... is that valuable?

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... is that valuable?

21:43:50 <bjdmeest> ivan: yes

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Unknown ivan: yes

21:44:02 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: could be throw together a conference wiki page?

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Unknown dkaplan: could be throw together a conference wiki page?

21:44:23 <bjdmeest> bill_kasdorf: I have ssp and IDPF, so if this could be at the frontend of IDPF, that would be great

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Unknown bill_kasdorf: I have ssp and IDPF, so if this could be at the frontend of IDPF, that would be great

21:44:56 <bjdmeest> tzviya: the conference wiki is a good idea (also C-SAN

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Unknown tzviya: the conference wiki is a good idea (also CSUN

21:45:09 <bjdmeest> ivan: we need it to be before summer

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Unknown ivan: we need it to be before summer

21:45:11 <dkaplan3> s/C-SAN/CSUN
21:45:29 <bjdmeest> karen: also other parts of the world (eg EDUPUB)

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Unknown karen: also other parts of the world (eg EDUPUB)

21:45:34 <bjdmeest> mgylling: may sounds better

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Markus Gylling: may sounds better

21:45:49 <bjdmeest> ... next TPAC is in Saporro, so that is not an easy location

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... next TPAC is in Saporro, so that is not an easy location

21:46:03 <bjdmeest> ... that is an argument to get another meeting

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... that is an argument to get another meeting

21:46:56 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we are getting a lot of complains that the current time for telcon is not great

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Markus Gylling: we are getting a lot of complains that the current time for telcon is not great

21:47:15 <bjdmeest> tzviya: certainly for Asia

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Unknown tzviya: certainly for Asia

21:47:38 <bjdmeest> karen: India has a lot of interest in DPUB

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Unknown karen: India has a lot of interest in DPUB

21:47:57 <bjdmeest> ... the time is prohibitive to participate

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... the time is prohibitive to participate

21:48:05 <bjdmeest> ... they want to make sure there use cases get attention

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... they want to make sure there use cases get attention

21:48:36 <bjdmeest> ... maybe they have their own task force? own community group? representative for our telcons?

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... maybe they have their own task force? own community group? representative for our telcons?

21:48:55 <bjdmeest> ... ideally, we should have one time that fits for all

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... ideally, we should have one time that fits for all

21:49:06 <bjdmeest> bill_kasdorf: publishers or suppliers?

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Unknown bill_kasdorf: publishers or suppliers?

21:49:08 <bjdmeest> karen: both

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Unknown karen: both

21:49:23 <bjdmeest> ... 10-12 people, so not insignificant

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... 10-12 people, so not insignificant

21:49:23 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

21:49:29 <bjdmeest> mgylling: what to do?

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Markus Gylling: what to do?

21:49:36 <bjdmeest> liam: we could move India

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Unknown liam: we could move India

21:50:11 <bjdmeest> ivan: having yet another task force, means extra load to tzviya and marcus, I am reluctant to go that way

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Unknown ivan: having yet another task force, means extra load to tzviya and marcus, I am reluctant to go that way

21:50:26 <bjdmeest> ... we have a situation where latinreq is done here

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... we have a situation where latinreq is done here

21:50:58 <bjdmeest> ... at some point, japan, chinese and korean is going on, which span on i18n activities

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... at some point, japan, chinese and korean is going on, which span on i18n activities

21:51:25 <bjdmeest> ... the indian group could be a separate interest group, // to china

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... the indian group could be a separate interest group, // to china

21:51:25 <liam> [note, jlreq was a joint task force with XSL-FO, CSS and I18N ]

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Unknown liam: [note, jlreq was a joint task force with XSL-FO, CSS and I18N ]

21:52:06 <bjdmeest> ... with the additional feature that they have a representative for our call, or we sporadically organize calls with more convenient times for them

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... with the additional feature that they have a representative for our call, or we sporadically organize calls with more convenient times for them

21:52:30 <xiaoqian> q+

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Unknown xiaoqian: q+

21:52:43 <bjdmeest> ... if we move the call, we have to move the call 1-2 hours forward, which is not practical for the west coast

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... if we move the call, we have to move the call 1-2 hours forward, which is not practical for the west coast

21:53:05 <bjdmeest> karen: they could maybe join other task forces?

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Unknown karen: they could maybe join other task forces?

21:53:27 <bjdmeest> robin: we met the former head of Elsevier, it could be that there is an intersection there

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Unknown robin: we met the former head of Elsevier, it could be that there is an intersection there

21:53:31 <tzviya> ack dkaplan

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Unknown tzviya: ack dkaplan

21:53:50 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: extra help to the a11y group would be very much appreciated

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Unknown dkaplan: extra help to the a11y group would be very much appreciated

21:54:20 <bjdmeest> ivan: apart from some sparks, we did not really make use of e-mail discussions, sometimes there are long discussions on the monday calls

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Unknown ivan: apart from some sparks, we did not really make use of e-mail discussions, sometimes there are long discussions on the monday calls

21:54:32 <tzviya> ack xiaoqian

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Unknown tzviya: ack xiaoqian

21:54:37 <bjdmeest> ... we could make more use of the email discussions, and then the timezone is no longer a problem

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... we could make more use of the email discussions, and then the timezone is no longer a problem

21:55:06 <bjdmeest> xiaoqian: we have community group, where DPUB discussions should happen

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Unknown xiaoqian: we have community group, where DPUB discussions should happen

21:55:29 <bjdmeest> karen: for India, a separate interest group does not make sense, whilst they want to be bonafide members

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Unknown karen: for India, a separate interest group does not make sense, whilst they want to be bonafide members

21:55:55 <bjdmeest> ivan: chartering an extra interest group is not a problem, as it are india specific issues

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Unknown ivan: chartering an extra interest group is not a problem, as it are india specific issues

21:56:13 <bjdmeest> karen: it is not only India related, they also want to contribute to the main core

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Unknown karen: it is not only India related, they also want to contribute to the main core

21:56:29 <bjdmeest> tzviya: extra help is always appreciated

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Unknown tzviya: extra help is always appreciated

21:56:53 <bjdmeest> ivan: task forces have very ad hoc goals, there are no regular timings, more emails

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Unknown ivan: task forces have very ad hoc goals, there are no regular timings, more emails

21:56:59 <bjdmeest> ... there, there is no problem

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... there, there is no problem

21:57:02 <dkaplan3> q+

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Unknown dkaplan3: q+

21:57:19 <clapierre1> rrsagent, draft minutes

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Unknown clapierre1: rrsagent, draft minutes

21:57:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html clapierre1

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html clapierre1

21:57:27 <bjdmeest> karen: maybe we can organize a call with the Indian office, on a convenient time, to check the matches and the task forces with them

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Unknown karen: maybe we can organize a call with the Indian office, on a convenient time, to check the matches and the task forces with them

21:57:31 <bjdmeest> tzviya: ok

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Unknown tzviya: ok

21:57:41 <bjdmeest> karen: I will organize that

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Unknown karen: I will organize that

21:57:52 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

21:58:02 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: anybody who knows anyone who cares about a11y, put them in touch with us

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Unknown dkaplan: anybody who knows anyone who cares about a11y, put them in touch with us

21:58:03 <tzviya> ack dkaplan

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Unknown tzviya: ack dkaplan

21:58:24 <tzviya> thank you

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Unknown tzviya: thank you

22:02:18 <ivan> Present+ Richard_Ishida

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Richard_Ishida

22:03:39 <ivan> Present+ Addison

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Addison

22:03:56 <ivan> Present+ Felix_Sasaki

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Felix_Sasaki

22:05:53 <ivan> scribenick: brady_duga

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(Scribe set to Unknown brady_duga)

22:06:29 <ivan> Present+ fantasai

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Unknown ivan: Present+ fantasai

22:06:41 <dauwhe> me s/an editor/THE editor/

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Unknown dauwhe: me s/an editor/THE editor/

22:08:31 <brady_duga> richard: Need intro? Yes

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Unknown richard: Need intro? Yes

22:09:13 <brady_duga> … brief overview of I18n WG

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… brief overview of I18n WG

22:09:54 <brady_duga> … seek out features, provide advice to WGs, review specs, liase with other orgs, create tests, etc

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… seek out features, provide advice to WGs, review specs, liase with other orgs, create tests, etc

22:10:06 <ivan> Present+ Bert_Bos

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Unknown ivan: Present+ Bert_Bos

22:11:00 <brady_duga> … home page has a bunch drill down topic based tasks, plus dos and don’ts

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… home page has a bunch drill down topic based tasks, plus dos and don’ts

22:11:20 <brady_duga> … have a checker/validator

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… have a checker/validator

22:11:44 <brady_duga> … run workshops from various disciplines. Lock them in a room until they are smiling and happy

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… run workshops from various disciplines. Lock them in a room until they are smiling and happy

22:12:14 <brady_duga> … slides are available online

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… slides are available online

22:12:49 <brady_duga> … empower local communities to participate

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… empower local communities to participate

22:13:40 <brady_duga> … work they have done: predefined counters for various scripts. The document has the CSS you need, and it will create correct script-based styling

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… work they have done: predefined counters for various scripts. The document has the CSS you need, and it will create correct script-based styling

22:14:00 <brady_duga> … Arabic math done in mathml WG.

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… Arabic math done in mathml WG.

22:14:38 <brady_duga> … have worked a lot on ruby, working on a new model for html 5 and working with CSS to enable fine adjustments of these annotations

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… have worked a lot on ruby, working on a new model for html 5 and working with CSS to enable fine adjustments of these annotations

22:15:43 <brady_duga> … show of hands of people who are familiar with various interesting scripts

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… show of hands of people who are familiar with various interesting scripts

22:16:26 <brady_duga> … one problem with BIDI was use of unicode BIDI algorithm. Usually works, but not always

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… one problem with BIDI was use of unicode BIDI algorithm. Usually works, but not always

22:16:53 <brady_duga> … [showing example of restaurant review putting restaurant names in the wrong place]

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… [showing example of restaurant review putting restaurant names in the wrong place]

22:17:19 <brady_duga> … they worked on solving this

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… they worked on solving this

22:18:04 <brady_duga> … that’s the general stuff they work on

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… that’s the general stuff they work on

22:18:14 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

22:18:17 <brady_duga> … they started to look at Japanese content specifically

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… they started to look at Japanese content specifically

22:18:57 <brady_duga> … TF met over 2 years, created a huge document “Requirements for Japanese Text Layout”

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… TF met over 2 years, created a huge document “Requirements for Japanese Text Layout”

22:19:22 <brady_duga> … Document is in both Japanese and English

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… Document is in both Japanese and English

22:19:22 <dauwhe> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/

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Unknown dauwhe: http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/

22:19:51 <brady_duga> … Did not address problems in CSS, just described text layout for Japanese, to make it perrenial

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… Did not address problems in CSS, just described text layout for Japanese, to make it perrenial

22:20:31 <brady_duga> … TF worked in their own language, comms in own lang

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… TF worked in their own language, comms in own lang

22:20:41 <brady_duga> … then provided English language version

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… then provided English language version

22:20:53 <brady_duga> … So succesful, moved on to Korean

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… So succesful, moved on to Korean

22:21:15 <dauwhe> http://www.w3.org/TR/klreq/

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Unknown dauwhe: http://www.w3.org/TR/klreq/

22:21:17 <brady_duga> … Things not going too fast, but they have some work out

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… Things not going too fast, but they have some work out

22:21:28 <brady_duga> … have an indic TF as well, still early days

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… have an indic TF as well, still early days

22:21:58 <brady_duga> … now working on Chinese

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… now working on Chinese

22:22:10 <brady_duga> … simplified and traditional

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… simplified and traditional

22:24:28 <brady_duga> … also looking at minority scripts (Mongolian, Tibetan & Uyghur)

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… also looking at minority scripts (Mongolian, Tibetan & Uyghur)

22:25:50 <brady_duga> … lots of interesting problems, nto just styling (for instance, fonts)

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… lots of interesting problems, nto just styling (for instance, fonts)

22:26:21 <brady_duga> … Looking at Thai - for instance letter spacing

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… Looking at Thai - for instance letter spacing

22:26:33 <brady_duga> … have to decompose and then apply spacing in some cases

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… have to decompose and then apply spacing in some cases

22:28:00 <brady_duga> … letter spacing in Hindi may need to keep two grapheme clusters together, so letter spacing is a problem

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… letter spacing in Hindi may need to keep two grapheme clusters together, so letter spacing is a problem

22:28:37 <brady_duga> … white space processing - may need to drop inserted spaces (say, after pretty printing content)

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… white space processing - may need to drop inserted spaces (say, after pretty printing content)

22:29:08 <brady_duga> … underlines are tricky - in some scripts if the line crosses certain glyphs it changes their meaning

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… underlines are tricky - in some scripts if the line crosses certain glyphs it changes their meaning

22:29:49 <brady_duga> … emphasis issues - for instance, in Tibetan need to position on syllables

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… emphasis issues - for instance, in Tibetan need to position on syllables

22:30:31 <brady_duga> … ruby differences (eg bopomofo in Taiwan)

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… ruby differences (eg bopomofo in Taiwan)

22:30:51 <brady_duga> … how do Korean line breaking rules work?

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… how do Korean line breaking rules work?

22:31:10 <brady_duga> … Arabic justification - rules vary based on font, even if the text is identical

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… Arabic justification - rules vary based on font, even if the text is identical

22:31:55 <brady_duga> … Tibetan justification - still researching the best way to do it in modern typography

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… Tibetan justification - still researching the best way to do it in modern typography

22:32:11 <brady_duga> … working to get more layout requirements

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… working to get more layout requirements

22:32:27 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

22:32:47 <brady_duga> … they are trying to get the international community more involved.

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… they are trying to get the international community more involved.

22:32:55 <xiaoqian> q+

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Unknown xiaoqian: q+

22:33:03 <brady_duga> … instead of a bunch of geeks in a room figuring it out

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… instead of a bunch of geeks in a room figuring it out

22:33:21 <tzviya> ack xiaoqian

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Unknown tzviya: ack xiaoqian

22:33:32 <astearns> q+

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Unknown astearns: q+

22:34:19 <tzviya> q astearns

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Unknown tzviya: q astearns

22:34:26 <brady_duga> xiaoqian: had a Chinese layout workshop earlier - Mongolian professor said they are trying to help others understand their problems with an online magazine

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Unknown xiaoqian: had a Chinese layout workshop earlier - Mongolian professor said they are trying to help others understand their problems with an online magazine

22:34:38 <clapierre1> q+

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Unknown clapierre1: q+

22:34:39 <brady_duga> … need to get more data from local experts

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… need to get more data from local experts

22:34:48 <brady_duga> alan: what is up with Korean WG?

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Unknown alan: what is up with Korean WG?

22:35:00 <brady_duga> richard: not hearing much from them

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Unknown richard: not hearing much from them

22:35:04 <tzviya> ack clapierre

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Unknown tzviya: ack clapierre

22:35:07 <brady_duga> alan: LG may be joining

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Unknown alan: LG may be joining

22:35:10 <astearns> ack me

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Unknown astearns: ack me

22:35:26 <brady_duga> charles: looking at the list of languages: what about Burmese?

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Unknown charles: looking at the list of languages: what about Burmese?

22:35:31 <ivan> q+

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Unknown ivan: q+

22:35:42 <brady_duga> richard: looking at it, based on indic languages

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Unknown richard: looking at it, based on indic languages

22:35:54 <brady_duga> … may be other issues (eg no spaces between words)

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… may be other issues (eg no spaces between words)

22:36:26 <tzviya> ack ivan

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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan

22:37:17 <brady_duga> ivan: based on a presentation a few years ago, this IG will be limited to Latin

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Unknown ivan: based on a presentation a few years ago, this IG will be limited to Latin

22:37:20 <addison> q+

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Unknown addison: q+

22:37:53 <dauwhe> q+

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Unknown dauwhe: q+

22:38:43 <brady_duga> … Is there a need to synchronize on the type of problems and concerns across languages? So documents produced for other languages are as relevant to digipub as latin rec

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… Is there a need to synchronize on the type of problems and concerns across languages? So documents produced for other languages are as relevant to digipub as latin rec

22:39:34 <brady_duga> … Also, yesterday we talked about pagination. We will initiate some work on it. Need to coordinate.

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… Also, yesterday we talked about pagination. We will initiate some work on it. Need to coordinate.

22:39:50 <dauwhe> q-

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Unknown dauwhe: q-

22:40:16 <brady_duga> … Also, have Indian group joining us. Some of their issues will be language specific. How to handle overlap with this group?

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… Also, have Indian group joining us. Some of their issues will be language specific. How to handle overlap with this group?

22:41:22 <brady_duga> richard: back to Burmese sample: problems with mobile vs desktop

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Unknown richard: back to Burmese sample: problems with mobile vs desktop

22:41:40 <brady_duga> … need to conform to proper unicode is really only solution

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… need to conform to proper unicode is really only solution

22:42:24 <dauwhe> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks

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Unknown dauwhe: https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks

22:42:28 <brady_duga> … improving typography on the web. Fantasai has said, layout isn’t just language based (for instance, specific scripts change things)

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… improving typography on the web. Fantasai has said, layout isn’t just language based (for instance, specific scripts change things)

22:42:57 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/

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Unknown tzviya: http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/

22:43:17 <tzviya> ack addison

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Unknown tzviya: ack addison

22:43:20 <Karen_> [Richard shows wiki page on Improving text layout and typography on the Web in ebooks]

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Unknown Karen_: [Richard shows wiki page on Improving text layout and typography on the Web in ebooks]

22:43:50 <ivan> q+

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Unknown ivan: q+

22:44:14 <brady_duga> addison(???): digital pubs need to discover all these things.

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Unknown addison: digital pubs need to discover all these things.

22:44:55 <brady_duga> addison: want to make sure international standards are done at w3c and move into epub

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Unknown addison: want to make sure international standards are done at w3c and move into epub

22:45:12 <dauwhe> s/(???)//
22:45:13 <brady_duga> tzviya: worried we are overlapping - how to we work together

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Unknown tzviya: worried we are overlapping - how to we work together

22:45:39 <brady_duga> richard: wants us to look at what they are doing, see if it will help us or if we can work on it with them

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Unknown richard: wants us to look at what they are doing, see if it will help us or if we can work on it with them

22:46:13 <tzviya> ?

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Unknown tzviya: ?

22:46:16 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

22:46:20 <tzviya> ack ivan

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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan

22:46:28 <brady_duga> … Indic group wanted to document stuff for us, richard pushed them to get it in a single place (i18n WG)

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… Indic group wanted to document stuff for us, richard pushed them to get it in a single place (i18n WG)

22:47:15 <brady_duga> ivan: all the documents i18n wg have produced would be extremely useful for epub publishers

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Unknown ivan: all the documents i18n wg have produced would be extremely useful for epub publishers

22:47:47 <brady_duga> ivan: worried that most publishers don’t know these documents and tools exist

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Unknown ivan: worried that most publishers don’t know these documents and tools exist

22:48:10 <brady_duga> ivan: last thing - do we have time for Chinese CG?

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Unknown ivan: last thing - do we have time for Chinese CG?

22:48:44 <brady_duga> xiaoqian: chinese wg is same as Chinese requirement TF

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Unknown xiaoqian: chinese wg is same as Chinese requirement TF

22:48:59 <brady_duga> ivan: but whatever comes out of the CG - we would like to hear about it

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Unknown ivan: but whatever comes out of the CG - we would like to hear about it

22:50:00 <brady_duga> xiaoqian: there are still gaps between dpub wg and Chinese TF. They need to fill the gaps.

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Unknown xiaoqian: there are still gaps between dpub wg and Chinese TF. They need to fill the gaps.

22:50:37 <murakami> q+

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Unknown murakami: q+

22:50:38 <brady_duga> richard: i18n WG working on getting complex communication issues resolved

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Unknown richard: i18n WG working on getting complex communication issues resolved

22:50:48 <brady_duga> … want to work with dpub on that

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… want to work with dpub on that

22:50:53 <tzviya> ack murakami

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Unknown tzviya: ack murakami

22:51:20 <brady_duga> murakami: in Japan one study group working on next gen layout for browsers

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Unknown murakami: in Japan one study group working on next gen layout for browsers

22:51:30 <brady_duga> … supported by Japanese government

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… supported by Japanese government

22:51:57 <brady_duga> … the chair of that group is Koji Ishii

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… the chair of that group is Koji Ishii

22:52:28 <ivan> q?

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Unknown ivan: q?

22:52:32 <ivan> q+

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Unknown ivan: q+

22:52:44 <brady_duga> … next year TPAC will be in Sapporo

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… next year TPAC will be in Sapporo

22:53:12 <brady_duga> … wants us to work in conjunction with that group

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… wants us to work in conjunction with that group

22:53:33 <chunming> q?

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Unknown chunming: q?

22:53:43 <takeshi> q+

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Unknown takeshi: q+

22:53:53 <tzviya> ack ivan

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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan

22:53:53 <brady_duga> richard: Lets look at ways we can tie together all the appropriate groups

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Unknown richard: Lets look at ways we can tie together all the appropriate groups

22:54:03 <brady_duga> ivan: Looking for actions

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Unknown ivan: Looking for actions

22:54:46 <brady_duga> action ivan to find someone to review i18n web page

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action ivan to find someone to review i18n web page

22:54:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Find someone to review i18n web page [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-11-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-42 - Find someone to review i18n web page [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-11-07].

22:55:12 <brady_duga> ivan: we should report back to i18n wg

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Unknown ivan: we should report back to i18n wg

22:55:15 <tzviya> ACTION Tzviya DPUB to read i18n documentation from EPUB perspective for gap analysis

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Unknown tzviya: ACTION Tzviya DPUB to read i18n documentation from EPUB perspective for gap analysis

22:55:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Dpub to read i18n documentation from epub perspective for gap analysis [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-43 - Dpub to read i18n documentation from epub perspective for gap analysis [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07].

22:55:57 <brady_duga> … especially pagination recs need to coordinate

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… especially pagination recs need to coordinate

22:55:58 <chunming> You may refer to the report of Chinese Layout Req Workshop this september: http://www.chinaw3c.org/layout-workshop-report.html#conclusion

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Unknown chunming: You may refer to the report of Chinese Layout Req Workshop this september: http://www.chinaw3c.org/layout-workshop-report.html#conclusion

22:56:09 <tzviya> ack takeshi

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Unknown tzviya: ack takeshi

22:56:09 <brady_duga> … once a year at TPAC may not be enough

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… once a year at TPAC may not be enough

22:58:14 <brady_duga> takeshi: gathering info from many communities is very important, but need to be careful - in some cases need to understand how it interacts with Latin languages

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Unknown takeshi: gathering info from many communities is very important, but need to be careful - in some cases need to understand how it interacts with Latin languages

22:58:39 <brady_duga> … for instance, emphasis in Japanese with Latin glyphs

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… for instance, emphasis in Japanese with Latin glyphs

22:59:04 <brady_duga> richard: if we make all these requirements without tieing to technologies that’s fine

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Unknown richard: if we make all these requirements without tieing to technologies that’s fine

22:59:05 <tzviya> q?

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Unknown tzviya: q?

22:59:36 <brady_duga> … but we need to tie this back to the technologies, and need to coordinate with similar language groups (for instance Chinese and Japanese)

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… but we need to tie this back to the technologies, and need to coordinate with similar language groups (for instance Chinese and Japanese)

23:00:03 <brady_duga> … need to figure out what is the web of comms channels to make this work

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… need to figure out what is the web of comms channels to make this work

23:00:04 <Karen_> q+

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Unknown Karen_: q+

23:00:34 <brady_duga> tzviya: we will review their docs, and work with ivan on coordinating comms with i18n wg

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Unknown tzviya: we will review their docs, and work with ivan on coordinating comms with i18n wg

23:00:51 <brady_duga> addison: is this a good time to start reviewing our work?

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Unknown addison: is this a good time to start reviewing our work?

23:01:04 <brady_duga> … this is a weird case, since we are working on similar things

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… this is a weird case, since we are working on similar things

23:01:15 <tzviya> ack karen

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Unknown tzviya: ack karen

23:01:36 <brady_duga> karen: Communications - is that intra-w3c? Or do you mean external comms?

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Unknown karen: Communications - is that intra-w3c? Or do you mean external comms?

23:01:49 <brady_duga> tzviya: Intention was intra-w3c

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Unknown tzviya: Intention was intra-w3c

23:02:07 <brady_duga> karen: is there an opportunity to do more educational outreach?

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Unknown karen: is there an opportunity to do more educational outreach?

23:02:13 <brady_duga> tzviya: yes, eventually

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Unknown tzviya: yes, eventually

23:02:15 <tzviya> thank you

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Unknown tzviya: thank you

23:02:59 <ivan> Meeting adjurned

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Unknown ivan: Meeting adjurned

23:03:06 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

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Unknown ivan: rrsagent, draft minutes

23:03:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan

23:03:27 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

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Unknown ivan: zakim, who is here?

23:03:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see Seattle

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Seattle

23:03:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see bobtung, chunming, Reinaldo_, hiroto, Bert, takeshi, addison, bjdmeest, Karen_, jeanne, dauwhe, murakami, xiaoqian, ShaneM, liam, Jutta, tzviya, ivan, iank_, RRSAgent,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bobtung, chunming, Reinaldo_, hiroto, Bert, takeshi, addison, bjdmeest, Karen_, jeanne, dauwhe, murakami, xiaoqian, ShaneM, liam, Jutta, tzviya, ivan, iank_, RRSAgent,

23:03:28 <Zakim> ... Zakim, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Zakim, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot

23:03:33 <ivan> zakim, drop seattle

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Unknown ivan: zakim, drop seattle

23:03:33 <Zakim> Seattle is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: Seattle is being disconnected

23:03:35 <Zakim> DPUB_IG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_IG()11:00AM has ended

23:03:35 <Zakim> Attendees were Seattle, pkra, madi, +44.788.775.aaaa, astein, +1.217.721.aabb, Jutta, Tim_Boland

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Seattle, pkra, madi, +44.788.775.aaaa, astein, +1.217.721.aabb, Jutta, Tim_Boland

23:04:04 <ivan> zakim, bye

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Unknown ivan: zakim, bye

23:04:12 <ivan> rrsagent, bye

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Unknown ivan: rrsagent, bye

23:04:12 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-actions.rdf :

23:04:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa [1]

ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa [1]

23:04:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc#T17-41-07

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc#T17-41-07

23:04:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [2]

ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [2]

23:04:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc#T17-48-52

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc#T17-48-52



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