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DPUB IG F2F meeting - first day, 2014-10-30

Minutes of 30 October 2014

Seen
Alan Stearns, Ben De Meester, Bert Bos, Bill Kasdorf, Brady Duga, Charles LaPierre, Daniel Schwabe, Dave Cramer, Deborah Kaplan, Ivan Herman, Karen Myers, Liam Quin, Markku Hakkinen, Markus Gylling, Michael Miller, Richard Schwerdtfeger, Robert Sanderson, Timothy Cole, Tzviya Siegman, Unknown MichaelC, Unknown MichaelC_, Unknown Ryladog, Unknown ShaneM, Unknown bkardell_, Unknown bobtung, Unknown bradk, Unknown cyns, Unknown fettes, Unknown glazou, Unknown glazou_, Unknown jnurthen, Unknown joanie, Unknown jongund, Unknown marcjohlic
Chair
Tzviya Siegman
Scribe
Bill Kasdorf, Tzviya Siegman, Karen Myers, Liam Quin, Ben De Meester
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics

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15:15:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc

15:17:24 <ivan> Meeting: DPUB IG F2F meeting - first day, 2014-10-30
15:18:07 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F

Ivan Herman: ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F

15:18:33 <ivan> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight

15:23:28 <bradk> 📖📚📔

Scribe problem: the name 'bradk' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'bradk' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bradk: 📖📚📔

15:37:01 <ivan> Chair: Markus
15:38:04 <ivan> zakim, dial seattle

(No events recorded for 14 minutes)

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial seattle

15:38:04 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is

15:38:16 <ivan> zakim, this is DPUB

Ivan Herman: zakim, this is DPUB

15:38:16 <Zakim> ivan, I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be DPUB".

Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be DPUB".

15:38:27 <ivan> zakim, this will be DPUB

Ivan Herman: zakim, this will be DPUB

15:38:27 <Zakim> ok, ivan; I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM scheduled to start 38 minutes ago

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM scheduled to start 38 minutes ago

15:38:37 <ivan> zakim, dial seattle

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial seattle

15:38:37 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

15:38:38 <Zakim> DPUB_IG()11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_IG()11:00AM has now started

15:38:39 <Zakim> +Seattle

Zakim IRC Bot: +Seattle

15:39:14 <ivan> scribenick: Bill_Kasdorf

(Scribe set to Bill Kasdorf)

15:39:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> Priority for this morning is pagination

Priority for this morning is pagination

15:39:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> We will deal with logistical issues later to use this time most effectively.

We will deal with logistical issues later to use this time most effectively.

15:39:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> (Quick round of self-introductions.)

(Quick round of self-introductions.)

15:40:06 <mgylling> +Present Markus_Gylling

Markus Gylling: +Present Markus_Gylling

15:40:06 <dauwhe> Present+ Dave_Cramer

Dave Cramer: Present+ Dave_Cramer

15:40:10 <glazou> Present+ Daniel_Glazman

Scribe problem: the name 'glazou' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'glazou' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown glazou: Present+ Daniel_Glazman

15:40:10 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson

Robert Sanderson: Present+ Rob_Sanderson

15:40:13 <ivan> Present+ Ivan_Herman

Ivan Herman: Present+ Ivan_Herman

15:40:19 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole

Timothy Cole: Present+ Tim_Cole

15:40:22 <Bert> present+ Bert Bos

Bert Bos: present+ Bert Bos

15:40:22 <dkaplan3> Present+ Deborah_Kaplan

Deborah Kaplan: Present+ Deborah_Kaplan

15:40:25 <AH_Miller> Present+ Michael Miller, Antenna House

Michael Miller: Present+ Michael Miller, Antenna House

15:40:27 <brady_duga> Present+ Brady_Duga

Brady Duga: Present+ Brady_Duga

15:40:36 <bradk> Present+ Brad_Kemper

Scribe problem: the name 'bradk' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'bradk' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bradk: Present+ Brad_Kemper

15:40:38 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Tzviya

15:40:53 <Karen> Present+ Karen_Myers

Karen Myers: Present+ Karen_Myers

15:42:36 <ivan> Present+ Alan_Stearns

Ivan Herman: Present+ Alan_Stearns

15:43:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> We will not try to mimic CSS WG

We will not try to mimic CSS WG

15:43:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... instead we need to undestand the roadmap of how to get there.

... instead we need to undestand the roadmap of how to get there.

15:43:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Many different ways to approach this.

... Many different ways to approach this.

15:44:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... DPIG needs to understand what is the _best_ way to accomplish what we need to do.

... DPIG needs to understand what is the _best_ way to accomplish what we need to do.

15:44:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> Both WGs have a problem of resource scarcity.

Both WGs have a problem of resource scarcity.

15:44:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> We hope this pagination issue may help us recruit new people

We hope this pagination issue may help us recruit new people

15:44:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... especially new people who can contribute insights as to pagination requirements.

... especially new people who can contribute insights as to pagination requirements.

15:44:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> There is no canonical document regarding pagination.

There is no canonical document regarding pagination.

15:45:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> This is a problem for the WGs because they need to be told more clearly what the issues are.

This is a problem for the WGs because they need to be told more clearly what the issues are.

15:45:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> We will avoid low-level discussions about CSS syntax.

We will avoid low-level discussions about CSS syntax.

15:45:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> We want to have a clear roadmap at the end of this session.

We want to have a clear roadmap at the end of this session.

15:46:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> Daniel: First step is to define what is meant by pagination.

Daniel Schwabe: First step is to define what is meant by pagination.

15:46:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Need a definition of what is a page.

... Need a definition of what is a page.

15:46:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... seems like an obvious question with an obvious answer but it isn't.

... seems like an obvious question with an obvious answer but it isn't.

15:46:33 <ivan> Present+ Ben_De_Meester

Ivan Herman: Present+ Ben_De_Meester

15:46:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...How do you interact with a page, view a page, etc.?

...How do you interact with a page, view a page, etc.?

15:47:03 <ivan> Present+ Charles_LaPierre

Ivan Herman: Present+ Charles_LaPierre

15:47:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> Daniel: transition between pages is undefined and badly needed.

Daniel Schwabe: transition between pages is undefined and badly needed.

15:47:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . not strictly related to "pages" but an essential aspect of what we need to deal with.

. . . not strictly related to "pages" but an essential aspect of what we need to deal with.

15:48:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...intersection between device industries and publishing is key.

...intersection between device industries and publishing is key.

15:48:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> Dave: We absolutely need to address all users.

Dave Cramer: We absolutely need to address all users.

15:49:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> Dave: presentation--unfortunately since the Web lacks native pagination he can't just put this online. . . . ;-)

Dave Cramer: presentation--unfortunately since the Web lacks native pagination he can't just put this online. . . . ;-)

15:50:05 <ivan> Present+ Liam_Quin

Ivan Herman: Present+ Liam_Quin

15:50:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... this presentation is geared for people who may not have deep knowledge of either the technology or the publishing requirements.

... this presentation is geared for people who may not have deep knowledge of either the technology or the publishing requirements.

15:50:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Pagination addresses need for content that doesn't just fit on a stone tablet: even God realized that. ;-)

... Pagination addresses need for content that doesn't just fit on a stone tablet: even God realized that. ;-)

15:50:48 <tzviya> presnt+ Tzviya_Siegman

Tzviya Siegman: presnt+ Tzviya_Siegman

15:50:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...How to deal with content that "doesn't fit"?

...How to deal with content that "doesn't fit"?

15:51:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Most common response on the web is to scroll.

... Most common response on the web is to scroll.

15:51:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... In some contexts the best user experience is to paginate, move the additional content to a new "page."

... In some contexts the best user experience is to paginate, move the additional content to a new "page."

15:52:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... This also involves the need to hyphenate (when a word doesn't fit) which requires hyphenation rules and dictionaries.

... This also involves the need to hyphenate (when a word doesn't fit) which requires hyphenation rules and dictionaries.

15:52:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...So what is the arrangement of the pages in virtual or physical space?

...So what is the arrangement of the pages in virtual or physical space?

15:53:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...Horizontal? LtR? Vertical?

...Horizontal? LtR? Vertical?

15:53:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...Spreads?

...Spreads?

15:53:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Useful to be able to view multiple pages that are not necessarily contiguous in the linear flow.

... Useful to be able to view multiple pages that are not necessarily contiguous in the linear flow.

15:54:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... CSS has already done quite a bit of work on how to break up the content: "Fragmentation."

... CSS has already done quite a bit of work on how to break up the content: "Fragmentation."

15:54:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...CSS Fragmentation Module Level 3 latest draft is Jan 2014.

...CSS Fragmentation Module Level 3 latest draft is Jan 2014.

15:55:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...Overflow piece for how pagination is triggered and what the rules are for chunking content into discrete pieces.

...Overflow piece for how pagination is triggered and what the rules are for chunking content into discrete pieces.

15:55:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...We also need to define how one interacts with pages.

...We also need to define how one interacts with pages.

15:55:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...Brady put together a bunch of use cases for page representation in the DOM, or perhaps Boxtree.

...Brady put together a bunch of use cases for page representation in the DOM, or perhaps Boxtree.

15:56:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Mechanism for accessing pages, displaying multiple pages, various arrangements, etc.

... Mechanism for accessing pages, displaying multiple pages, various arrangements, etc.

15:56:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Plus the need to _identify_ what page you are on, what page you want to navigate to, etc.

... Plus the need to _identify_ what page you are on, what page you want to navigate to, etc.

15:57:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Page transitions (within and between documents).

... Page transitions (within and between documents).

15:57:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Content based on position (e.g. top or bottom of page).

... Content based on position (e.g. top or bottom of page).

15:57:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Retaining positoin when font size changes.

... Retaining positoin when font size changes.

15:57:31 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben De Meester

Ben De Meester: Present+ Ben De Meester

15:57:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... User overrides.

... User overrides.

15:58:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Fundamental principle of DPIG is user must have some control of the presentation.

... Fundamental principle of DPIG is user must have some control of the presentation.

15:58:33 <ivan> Present+ Peter_Linss

Ivan Herman: Present+ Peter_Linss

15:58:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... [showed a simple structural diagram of the DOM]

... [showed a simple structural diagram of the DOM]

15:59:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... and diagram of how the html parser creates the DOM, the css parser creates the CSS Object Model, and the content is rendered.

... and diagram of how the html parser creates the DOM, the css parser creates the CSS Object Model, and the content is rendered.

16:00:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> ...and then a diagram showing the interactions between the DOM tree and the CSS, and how CSS builds the rendering.

...and then a diagram showing the interactions between the DOM tree and the CSS, and how CSS builds the rendering.

16:01:24 <Karen> q+

Karen Myers: q+

16:01:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The Path Forward: How do we bring pagination to the web natively?

... The Path Forward: How do we bring pagination to the web natively?

16:01:34 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

16:01:37 <mgylling> ack Karen

Markus Gylling: ack Karen

16:02:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> Karen: Question about the spread slide, clarifying what is meant by spreadsd.

Karen Myers: Question about the spread slide, clarifying what is meant by spreadsd.

16:02:10 <glazou_> q?

Scribe problem: the name 'glazou_' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'glazou_' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown glazou_: q?

16:02:43 <TimCole> q+

Timothy Cole: q+

16:03:41 <TimCole> q-

Timothy Cole: q-

16:03:58 <mgylling> ack liam

Markus Gylling: ack liam

16:03:58 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to note user prefs can also be real a11y needs

Zakim IRC Bot: liam, you wanted to note user prefs can also be real a11y needs

16:04:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill: Some types of content (textbooks, magazines) have objects that extend across a spread.

Bill Kasdorf: Some types of content (textbooks, magazines) have objects that extend across a spread.

16:04:30 <mgylling> ack Tim

Markus Gylling: ack Tim

16:04:41 <dkaplan3> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+

16:05:13 <tzviya> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+

16:05:41 <mgylling> ack tzviya

Markus Gylling: ack tzviya

16:06:38 <mgylling> ack dkaplan

Markus Gylling: ack dkaplan

16:07:30 <azaroth> q+ to note scrolling pages

Robert Sanderson: q+ to note scrolling pages

16:09:13 <mgylling> ack azaroth

Markus Gylling: ack azaroth

16:09:13 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to note scrolling pages

Zakim IRC Bot: azaroth, you wanted to note scrolling pages

16:11:23 <liam> [ http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4jxNVJYcT40/T1lYMlD-QtI/AAAAAAAAdmA/Z690oSQDeu0/s1600/photo-745957.JPG ]

Liam Quin: [ http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4jxNVJYcT40/T1lYMlD-QtI/AAAAAAAAdmA/Z690oSQDeu0/s1600/photo-745957.JPG ]

16:11:25 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

16:16:30 <ivan> q+

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Ivan Herman: q+

16:16:37 <astearns> q+

Alan Stearns: q+

16:17:37 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

16:18:05 <mgylling> ack ivan

Markus Gylling: ack ivan

16:18:59 <bobtung> dpub agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F

Scribe problem: the name 'bobtung' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'bobtung' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bobtung: dpub agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F

16:19:10 <tzviya_> fragmentanors

Tzviya Siegman: fragmentanors

16:19:15 <bobtung> wrong channel sorry

Scribe problem: the name 'bobtung' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'bobtung' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bobtung: wrong channel sorry

16:20:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> menu Status #dpubX [Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F] [11:37] == Bill_Kasdorf [~Bill_Kasdorf@public.cloak] has joined #dpub [11:38] == dauwhe [~dauwhe@public.cloak] has joined #dpub [11:38] <ivan> zakim, dial seattle [11:38] <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is [11:38] <ivan> zakim, this is DPUB [11:38] <Zakim> ivan, I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be[CUT]

menu Status #dpubX [Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F] [11:37] == Bill_Kasdorf [~Bill_Kasdorf@public.cloak] has joined #dpub [11:38] == dauwhe [~dauwhe@public.cloak] has joined #dpub [11:38] <ivan> zakim, dial seattle [11:38] <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is [11:38] <ivan> zakim, this is DPUB [11:38] <Zakim> ivan, I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be[CUT]

16:21:07 <Karen> rrsagent, draft minutes

Karen Myers: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:21:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html Karen

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html Karen

16:21:57 <azaroth> q?

Robert Sanderson: q?

16:22:18 <tzviya_> glazou: automotive industry, want to have multiple documents with ability to "flip" through, similar to ebooks but differenrt

Scribe problem: the name 'glazou' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown glazou: automotive industry, want to have multiple documents with ability to "flip" through, similar to ebooks but differenrt [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ]

16:22:43 <Bert> (And LG's round watch, presented at a break-out ysterday)

Bert Bos: (And LG's round watch, presented at a break-out ysterday)

16:22:52 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

16:23:08 <mgylling> ack astearns

Markus Gylling: ack astearns

16:24:18 <bradk> some related CSS drafts: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-overflow-3/  http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-break   http://www.w3.org/TR/css-shapes-1/  http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-regions  http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-multicol  http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-page

Scribe problem: the name 'bradk' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'bradk' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bradk: some related CSS drafts: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-overflow-3/ http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-break http://www.w3.org/TR/css-shapes-1/ http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-regions http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-multicol http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-page

16:24:27 <ivan> scribenick: tzviya_

(Scribe set to Tzviya Siegman)

16:24:48 <tzviya_> alan: opera has implemented regions to accomplish some of this, such as knowledge of location ("page")

Scribe problem: the name 'alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown alan: opera has implemented high-level overflow:paged. IE and Safari have implemented regions to accomplish some of this, such as knowledge of location ("page")

16:25:05 <tzviya_> ...hope other browsers will adopt

...hope other browsers will adopt

16:25:17 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

16:25:30 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Deborah: we've been able to hack pagination models since practically the beginning of the web

Deborah Kaplan: we've been able to hack pagination models since practically the beginning of the web [ Scribe Assist by Bill Kasdorf ]

16:25:51 <ivan> scribenick: Bill_Kasdorf_

(Scribe set to Bill Kasdorf)

16:26:27 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:26:31 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Dave: The developments in IE  and Safari reduce the amount of work you need to do to accomplish thisl

Dave Cramer: The developments in IE and Safari reduce the amount of work you need to do to accomplish thisl

16:26:50 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Deborah: this solves some but not all of the issues we're talking about.

Deborah Kaplan: this solves some but not all of the issues we're talking about.

16:27:06 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

16:27:19 <tzviya_> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+

16:27:31 <mgylling> ack liam

Markus Gylling: ack liam

16:27:31 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to mention XSL-FO closing, techdoc

Zakim IRC Bot: liam, you wanted to mention XSL-FO closing, techdoc

16:28:15 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Liam: We have closed the XSL-FO working group; in fact I did that: nobody was showing up for the meetings.

Liam Quin: We have closed the XSL-FO working group; in fact I did that: nobody was showing up for the meetings.

16:28:29 <ivan> scribenick: tzviya_

(Scribe set to Tzviya Siegman)

16:28:38 <astearns> s/opera has/opera has implemented high-level overflow:paged. IE and Safari have/
16:28:39 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... The other reason was that it was clear that the longterm future was to make CSS do what can be done with XSL-FO

Bill Kasdorf: ... The other reason was that it was clear that the longterm future was to make CSS do what can be done with XSL-FO

16:28:59 <ivan> scribenick: Bill_Kasdorf_

(Scribe set to Bill Kasdorf)

16:29:40 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... So I closed FO and joined the CSS WG and gave a presentation, afraid there would be a huge push-back re getting CSS to where FO was

... So I closed FO and joined the CSS WG and gave a presentation, afraid there would be a huge push-back re getting CSS to where FO was

16:29:58 <Bill_Kasdorf_> In fact there was good support in the CSS WG because they want to be able to produce professional quality typography.

In fact there was good support in the CSS WG because they want to be able to produce professional quality typography.

16:30:13 <Bill_Kasdorf_> CSS is moving to replace ad hoc features with underlying mechanisms: big change.

CSS is moving to replace ad hoc features with underlying mechanisms: big change.

16:30:23 <Bill_Kasdorf_> E.g. we have flexbox and regions coming.

E.g. we have flexbox and regions coming.

16:30:42 <Bill_Kasdorf_> So we have an opportunity for redefining some of the mechanisms in CSS by which pagination happens

So we have an opportunity for redefining some of the mechanisms in CSS by which pagination happens

16:30:53 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... having an underlying consistent mechanism.

... having an underlying consistent mechanism.

16:31:05 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... reinforced by needs of ebooks.

... reinforced by needs of ebooks.

16:31:12 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... early days but looking very promising.

... early days but looking very promising.

16:31:26 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Michael: AntennaHouse supports CSS for pagination.

Michael Miller: AntennaHouse supports CSS for pagination.

16:32:01 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... At the same time, FO is very alive and strong in the user market: several thousand FO implementations, 10,000+, 100,000+ licenses.

... At the same time, FO is very alive and strong in the user market: several thousand FO implementations, 10,000+, 100,000+ licenses.

16:32:10 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Right now FO sales are stronger than ever.

... Right now FO sales are stronger than ever.

16:32:25 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... So despite our commitment to CSS we are committed to FO.

... So despite our commitment to CSS we are committed to FO.

16:32:34 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Would like to see FO revitalized in the W3C.

... Would like to see FO revitalized in the W3C.

16:33:05 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Nine years ago in Heidelberg AH advocated bringing FO and CSS together and got crucified.

... Nine years ago in Heidelberg AH advocated bringing FO and CSS together and got crucified.

16:33:05 <tzviya_> q-

Tzviya Siegman: q-

16:33:14 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... We would like to make that suggestion again now.

... We would like to make that suggestion again now.

16:33:43 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Markus: am I hearing that you are advocating moving feature set of FO to CSS or actually reviving FO?

Markus Gylling: am I hearing that you are advocating moving feature set of FO to CSS or actually reviving FO?

16:34:15 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Michael: actually both. Massive installed base (e.g., almost entire aerospace industry) uses FO and is not going to move off it.

Michael Miller: actually both. Massive installed base (e.g., almost entire aerospace industry) uses FO and is not going to move off it.

16:34:25 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

16:34:29 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Thousands of existing implementations that aren't going to change.

... Thousands of existing implementations that aren't going to change.

16:34:36 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Feature set of FO is what's needed in CSS.

Feature set of FO is what's needed in CSS.

16:34:38 <ivan> ack liam

Ivan Herman: ack liam

16:34:38 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to note FO is also based on CSS

Zakim IRC Bot: liam, you wanted to note FO is also based on CSS

16:35:10 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Liam: FO uses CSS properties and adds region and page properties. CSS was not a recommendation when FO was first published.

Liam Quin: FO uses CSS properties and adds region and page properties. CSS was not a recommendation when FO was first published.

16:35:24 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... So CSS properties are put in line with regions and flows.

... So CSS properties are put in line with regions and flows.

16:35:38 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Antenna House has a lot of extensions that are also important.

... Antenna House has a lot of extensions that are also important.

16:35:54 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Michael: In AH documentation we show alignment between FO and CSS.

Michael Miller: In AH documentation we show alignment between FO and CSS.

16:35:56 <dauwhe> q+

Dave Cramer: q+

16:36:15 <mgylling> ack ivan

Markus Gylling: ack ivan

16:36:23 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Offers copy of Formatter to members for non-commercial use.

... Offers copy of Formatter to members for non-commercial use.

16:36:54 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Ivan: remember that we don't want to get too far down the technical path in this IG

Ivan Herman: remember that we don't want to get too far down the technical path in this IG

16:37:50 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Ivan: What can this IG do to help those in CSS who want to move forward on this?

Ivan Herman: What can this IG do to help those in CSS who want to move forward on this?

16:37:55 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

16:38:12 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Bert: Writing up the requirements as Dave has done is very valuable.

Bert Bos: Writing up the requirements as Dave has done is very valuable.

16:38:21 <glazou> q+

Scribe problem: the name 'glazou' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'glazou' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown glazou: q+

16:38:29 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... The use cases are very good.

... The use cases are very good.

16:38:44 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Also, come and give demos of things you like, need to do, etc.

... Also, come and give demos of things you like, need to do, etc.

16:39:11 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... They need to understand that pagination is not just breaking documents into fragments. It's much more than that.

... They need to understand that pagination is not just breaking documents into fragments. It's much more than that.

16:39:16 <mgylling> ack dauwhe

Markus Gylling: ack dauwhe

16:39:39 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Dave: A lot of this is in LatinReq. What else is being looked for that is not in LatinReq?

Dave Cramer: A lot of this is in LatinReq. What else is being looked for that is not in LatinReq?

16:40:43 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... In CSS, Fragmentation, Overflow, CSS Pages > Template, CSS Box Model, and Page Transitions and Navigations are being worked on.

... In CSS, Fragmentation, Overflow, CSS Pages > Template, CSS Box Model, and Page Transitions and Navigations are being worked on.

16:41:09 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... DPIG can provide a lot of insight into how these things can best be accomplished.

... DPIG can provide a lot of insight into how these things can best be accomplished.

16:41:25 <bobtung> I think Latin LReq is on i18n review list https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar

Scribe problem: the name 'bobtung' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'bobtung' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bobtung: I think Latin LReq is on i18n review list https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar

16:41:46 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Dave: what else is needed from the user community to move things along?

Dave Cramer: what else is needed from the user community to move things along?

16:41:53 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

16:41:57 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Michael: has there been any attention to digital rights?

Michael Miller: has there been any attention to digital rights?

16:42:04 <mgylling> ack daniel

Markus Gylling: ack daniel

16:42:07 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Dave: no. That's out of scope for what we're working on.

Dave Cramer: no. That's out of scope for what we're working on.

16:42:33 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Daniel: Remember that DPIG is an interest group, not a working group.

Daniel Schwabe: Remember that DPIG is an interest group, not a working group.

16:42:52 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... We have to make a strong use case for doing this on a broad scope.

... We have to make a strong use case for doing this on a broad scope.

16:42:58 <azaroth> +1 to Daniel's suggestion

Robert Sanderson: +1 to Daniel's suggestion

16:43:13 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Ivan: We have LatinReq that mostly addresses a corner of the broader use case.

Ivan Herman: We have LatinReq that mostly addresses a corner of the broader use case.

16:43:31 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Dave: we need a document called CarReq ;-)

Dave Cramer: we need a document called CarReq ;-)

16:43:56 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Daniel: No, that's not what I'm saying. We need to document number of tools, actors, size of market, number of players, etc.

Daniel Schwabe: No, that's not what I'm saying. We need to document number of tools, actors, size of market, number of players, etc.

16:44:10 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... To show that there are a whole bunch of new users that need these things.

... To show that there are a whole bunch of new users that need these things.

16:44:24 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Then sure, for each of these industries, list what the gaps are.

... Then sure, for each of these industries, list what the gaps are.

16:44:53 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Then, at the end of the document, have a table listing all the features and all the industries that need each one.

... Then, at the end of the document, have a table listing all the features and all the industries that need each one.

16:44:53 <Bert> q+ to ask to also define what is *not* expected of CSS and edge cases (keeping position in a document, annotating...)

Bert Bos: q+ to ask to also define what is *not* expected of CSS and edge cases (keeping position in a document, annotating...)

16:45:05 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Ivan: Huge amount of work, but I understand.

Ivan Herman: Huge amount of work, but I understand.

16:45:20 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... But to make it complete it should not be just from Digital Publishing.

... But to make it complete it should not be just from Digital Publishing.

16:45:30 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

16:45:37 <mgylling> ack glazou

Markus Gylling: ack glazou

16:45:40 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Daniel: Automotive group may not be addressing this but automotive _industry_ needs it.

Daniel Schwabe: Automotive group may not be addressing this but automotive _industry_ needs it.

16:46:48 <Karen> q+

Karen Myers: q+

16:46:53 <tzviya_> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+

16:47:54 <mgylling> ack Bert

Markus Gylling: ack Bert

16:47:55 <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to ask to also define what is *not* expected of CSS and edge cases (keeping position in a document, annotating...)

Zakim IRC Bot: Bert, you wanted to ask to also define what is *not* expected of CSS and edge cases (keeping position in a document, annotating...)

16:48:02 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Bill: Advocate a broader understanding of what is meant by publishing.

Bill Kasdorf: Advocate a broader understanding of what is meant by publishing.

16:48:24 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Dave: concerned that if it is so broad that it is everything people do on the Web it becomes meaninglessl

Dave Cramer: concerned that if it is so broad that it is everything people do on the Web it becomes meaninglessl

16:48:31 <mgylling> ack Karen

Markus Gylling: ack Karen

16:48:56 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:49:04 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Karen: building on what Daniel said about automotive, we are having conversations with a number of industries (healthcare, aerospace, etc.) that all recognize that they have publishing needs.

Karen Myers: building on what Daniel said about automotive, we are having conversations with a number of industries (healthcare, aerospace, etc.) that all recognize that they have publishing needs.

16:49:17 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... How do we get the conversation to happen between these groups?

... How do we get the conversation to happen between these groups?

16:49:29 <mgylling> ack tzviya

Markus Gylling: ack tzviya

16:50:10 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Tzviya: We don't want philosophical conversations about what "publishing" is or what a "book" is. That doesn't really matter.

Tzviya Siegman: We don't want philosophical conversations about what "publishing" is or what a "book" is. That doesn't really matter.

16:50:15 <mgylling> ack ivan

Markus Gylling: ack ivan

16:50:24 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ...

...

16:50:34 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... we need to understand who needs to work on this.

... we need to understand who needs to work on this.

16:50:48 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Ivan: we do have contact with people who are more on the business side.

Ivan Herman: we do have contact with people who are more on the business side.

16:51:05 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... could use LatinReq as a model and try to match that up with what their needs are.

... could use LatinReq as a model and try to match that up with what their needs are.

16:51:17 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Realistically we have to start with the industry we have around the table.

... Realistically we have to start with the industry we have around the table.

16:51:39 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Once the document is done, then make an outreach to Boeing, etc.

... Once the document is done, then make an outreach to Boeing, etc.

16:52:07 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Detailed business case must start with the publishing industry as now represented in the DPIG.

... Detailed business case must start with the publishing industry as now represented in the DPIG.

16:52:44 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Daniel: Showed a "state of art" document, not technical, addressing issues like "What is a Page Transition?"

Daniel Schwabe: Showed a "state of art" document, not technical, addressing issues like "What is a Page Transition?"

16:53:53 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Included examples going back to IE9, PowerPoint, etc. which provide a lot of insight into how the needs are remarkably coherent and could be standardized.

... Included examples going back to IE9, PowerPoint, etc. which provide a lot of insight into how the needs are remarkably coherent and could be standardized.

16:54:51 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Some transitions are extremely complex, need very detailed descriptions.

... Some transitions are extremely complex, need very detailed descriptions.

16:55:02 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... We need the spec to be "extremely human-readable."

... We need the spec to be "extremely human-readable."

16:55:23 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Comparing Keynote to PowerPoint is instructive.

... Comparing Keynote to PowerPoint is instructive.

16:55:37 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Looking at electronic books is part of the picture.

... Looking at electronic books is part of the picture.

16:56:00 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Widgets, connected appliances in industry is an issue.

... Widgets, connected appliances in industry is an issue.

16:56:14 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... And he provided suggested action.

... And he provided suggested action.

16:56:43 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... What is missing is the business part, what is the size of these industries, how many millions of users are waiting for these things?

... What is missing is the business part, what is the size of these industries, how many millions of users are waiting for these things?

16:57:22 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Markus: We are looking for work items. Bert made two suggestions. PageReq plus come and give demos.

Markus Gylling: We are looking for work items. Bert made two suggestions. PageReq plus come and give demos.

16:57:40 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Need for people to see demos, say "oh, now I see what you mean."

... Need for people to see demos, say "oh, now I see what you mean."

16:58:38 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Ivan: Is it possible to post Dave's demos?

Ivan Herman: Is it possible to post Dave's demos?

16:58:57 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... through our website? would that help?

... through our website? would that help?

16:59:03 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Bert: yes, sure.

Bert Bos: yes, sure.

16:59:19 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Ivan: Not having it only at a meeting, but generally available.

Ivan Herman: Not having it only at a meeting, but generally available.

16:59:34 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... Let's do that. We can build this from what we've got.

... Let's do that. We can build this from what we've got.

16:59:59 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Markus: We need to understand the overall scope first.

Markus Gylling: We need to understand the overall scope first.

17:00:06 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... What else?

... What else?

17:00:28 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Daniel: In my opinion, the business case.

Daniel Schwabe: In my opinion, the business case.

17:00:42 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Markus: Do you need editors who understand these issues deeply?

Markus Gylling: Do you need editors who understand these issues deeply?

17:00:49 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Daniel: yes, badly.

Daniel Schwabe: yes, badly.

17:01:04 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

17:02:19 <tzviya_> bill_kasdorf: there is not really a difference between what tzviya and daniel are tzviya are saying

Bill Kasdorf: there is not really a difference between what tzviya and daniel are tzviya are saying [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ]

17:03:00 <tzviya_> ...other industries may be a subset of publishing inudustry

Tzviya Siegman: ...other industries may be a subset of publishing inudustry

17:03:26 <tzviya_> ...start with publishing, then go to other industies and ask what's missing

Tzviya Siegman: ...start with publishing, then go to other industies and ask what's missing

17:03:32 <dkaplan3> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+

17:03:38 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

17:05:01 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

17:05:07 <mgylling> ack dkaplan

Markus Gylling: ack dkaplan

17:05:09 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Markus: We need to answer Dave's question about what is needed in the PageReq requirement.

Markus Gylling: We need to answer Dave's question about what is needed in the PageReq requirement.

17:05:51 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Deborah: All in favor of getting others at the table, but if you define publishing as anything people do on the web, you're talking about the W3C

Deborah Kaplan: All in favor of getting others at the table, but if you define publishing as anything people do on the web, you're talking about the W3C

17:06:06 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Markus: we have to work with what we have.

Markus Gylling: we have to work with what we have.

17:06:13 <mgylling> ack ivan

Markus Gylling: ack ivan

17:06:26 <Bill_Kasdorf_> ... We can't have a dependency on the broad scope at the outset or we will never get it done.

... We can't have a dependency on the broad scope at the outset or we will never get it done.

17:07:01 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

17:07:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan

17:07:07 <ivan> scribenick: Karen

(Scribe set to Karen Myers)

17:25:12 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Ivan: We need real action, things we can do now.

(No events recorded for 18 minutes)

Ivan Herman: We need real action, things we can do now. [ Scribe Assist by Bill Kasdorf ]

17:25:24 <Karen> Scribenick: karen
17:25:33 <Karen> Markus: In order to have concrete marching orders

Markus Gylling: In order to have concrete marching orders

17:25:40 <Karen> …we have identified the page req document

…we have identified the page req document

17:25:52 <Karen> …to describe pagination requirements first for digital publishing

…to describe pagination requirements first for digital publishing

17:25:57 <Karen> …automotive is not a dependency

…automotive is not a dependency

17:26:08 <Karen> …we'll reach out for review, but we will start with digpub as we know today

…we'll reach out for review, but we will start with digpub as we know today

17:26:17 <Karen> …Dave, you indicated some confusion or concerns

…Dave, you indicated some confusion or concerns

17:26:25 <Karen> …to get started, would you verbalize again please

…to get started, would you verbalize again please

17:26:32 <Karen> Dave: hard to talk about things that confuse me

Dave Cramer: hard to talk about things that confuse me

17:26:37 <Karen> …latin req

…latin req

17:26:42 <Karen> …is talking quite a bit about what factors

…is talking quite a bit about what factors

17:26:54 <Karen> …we're thinking about and what rules we apply as we break content in pages

…we're thinking about and what rules we apply as we break content in pages

17:27:09 <Karen> …constraints on page depth; want base lines to be the same on consecutive pages, especially on spread

…constraints on page depth; want base lines to be the same on consecutive pages, especially on spread

17:27:19 <Karen> …widows and orphans

…widows and orphans

17:27:31 <Karen> ..breaking lines and a reading experience; issues of keep width

..breaking lines and a reading experience; issues of keep width

17:27:43 <Karen> …not separate the heading from the content because it confuses the reader

…not separate the heading from the content because it confuses the reader

17:27:57 <Karen> …There is an initial discussion…I think of those things as requirements for pagination

…There is an initial discussion…I think of those things as requirements for pagination

17:28:10 <Karen> …they are describing where it's appropriate to break content

…they are describing where it's appropriate to break content

17:28:17 <Karen> …and what we think about as we make these breaks

…and what we think about as we make these breaks

17:28:28 <Karen> …and paginate in a way that is as reasonable as possible

…and paginate in a way that is as reasonable as possible

17:28:37 <Karen> Bill: hyphenation included?

Bill Kasdorf: hyphenation included?

17:28:49 <Karen> Dave: to some extent; where can I go from one line box to another

Dave Cramer: to some extent; where can I go from one line box to another

17:28:55 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

17:28:58 <Karen> …concept of @ hyphen

…concept of @ hyphen

17:29:10 <Karen> …I have to turn page before reading a single word

…I have to turn page before reading a single word

17:29:17 <Karen> Bill: even within Latin languages, in German

Bill Kasdorf: even within Latin languages, in German

17:29:33 <Karen> …when you hyphenate decken, that changes to a k

…when you hyphenate decken, that changes to a k

17:29:41 <Karen> …should we exclude that from scope?

…should we exclude that from scope?

17:29:45 <Karen> Brady: This is a great document

Brady Duga: This is a great document

17:29:55 <Karen> …point of page req is to take it in another direction

…point of page req is to take it in another direction

17:30:02 <Karen> …action was on me and that was a mistake

…action was on me and that was a mistake

17:30:13 <Karen> …Latin req looks at layout and styling, how to determine breaks

…Latin req looks at layout and styling, how to determine breaks

17:30:24 <Karen> …pagination is about reading system; page 27 and how to get reader to read it

…pagination is about reading system; page 27 and how to get reader to read it

17:30:33 <Karen> Dave: Closer to the page DOM requirements

Dave Cramer: Closer to the page DOM requirements

17:30:44 <Karen> Brady: right; write from the implementer side

Brady Duga: right; write from the implementer side

17:30:48 <Karen> …put a URI on top of it

…put a URI on top of it

17:30:57 <Karen> Dave: you are describing a spec?

Dave Cramer: you are describing a spec?

17:31:06 <Karen> Brady: not necessarily; lots of ways to approach

Brady Duga: not necessarily; lots of ways to approach

17:31:17 <Karen> …end of day, I have to show user page 27 after page 26

…end of day, I have to show user page 27 after page 26

17:31:33 <Karen> Ivan: Is this the kind of document that you are looking for Daniel and Peter?

Ivan Herman: Is this the kind of document that you are looking for Daniel and Peter?

17:31:38 <Karen> …apart from the business case

…apart from the business case

17:31:44 <Karen> …what is the most efficient weapon you need?

…what is the most efficient weapon you need?

17:32:14 <Karen> Daniel: Anything that shows the vendors

Daniel Schwabe: Anything that shows the vendors

17:32:19 <Karen> …I know it's a balance

…I know it's a balance

17:32:30 <Karen> …that we need to extend the platform to meet these feature sets

…that we need to extend the platform to meet these feature sets

17:32:38 <Karen> Alan: describing use cases from reading systems

Scribe problem: the name 'Alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Alan: describing use cases from reading systems

17:32:43 <Karen> …that cannot be done in web platform

…that cannot be done in web platform

17:32:48 <Karen> …will be useful to browser vendors

…will be useful to browser vendors

17:33:02 <Karen> Peter: I can bring a demo, but I have to bring a PDF instead of CSS

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Krautzberger Peter Linss . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: I can bring a demo, but I have to bring a PDF instead of CSS

17:33:07 <Karen> …if you can bring a demo in CSS, you can do it

…if you can bring a demo in CSS, you can do it

17:33:13 <Karen> …bring us things you cannot do in CSS yet

…bring us things you cannot do in CSS yet

17:33:23 <Karen> …that will upset the browser mevendors

…that will upset the browser mevendors

17:33:40 <Karen> …that's what we need to do; get people angry that they are not using their stuff; needs are not being met

…that's what we need to do; get people angry that they are not using their stuff; needs are not being met

17:33:41 <tzviya_> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+

17:33:46 <Karen> Ivan: Brady is talking about

Ivan Herman: Brady is talking about

17:33:49 <Karen> …one step further

…one step further

17:33:52 <bkardell_> Is there a link for page stuff just discussed?

Scribe problem: the name 'bkardell_' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'bkardell_' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bkardell_: Is there a link for page stuff just discussed?

17:33:55 <Karen> …you have a group that wants to get away from PDF

…you have a group that wants to get away from PDF

17:34:00 <Karen> …and they hit these brick walls

…and they hit these brick walls

17:34:04 <Karen> …The two together

…The two together

17:34:12 <Karen> …the good examples in PFD and why you cannot implement yet

…the good examples in PFD and why you cannot implement yet

17:34:16 <Karen> s/PDF

s/PDF

17:34:36 <ivan> ack tzviya_

Ivan Herman: ack tzviya_

17:34:42 <Karen> Tzviya: I think the doc we have now is use cases from publisher's perspective

Tzviya Siegman: I think the doc we have now is use cases from publisher's perspective

17:34:48 <Karen> …I want to define widows and orphans that funciton well

…I want to define widows and orphans that funciton well

17:34:51 <TimCole> q+

Timothy Cole: q+

17:34:59 <Karen> …and Brady is saying I need to tell reader when she transitions from page 26 to 27

…and Brady is saying I need to tell reader when she transitions from page 26 to 27

17:35:09 <Karen> …and Peter we need to know what you need to tell the reader

…and Peter we need to know what you need to tell the reader

17:35:12 <Karen> …both of those?

…both of those?

17:35:28 <Karen> Tim: will they work together well is two separate documents

Scribe problem: the name 'Tim' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Tim Clark Timothy Cole . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Tim: will they work together well is two separate documents

17:35:34 <Karen> Ivan: Latin req is separate

Ivan Herman: Latin req is separate

17:35:39 <Karen> …PDF examples

…PDF examples

17:35:42 <Karen> …and the page req

…and the page req

17:35:48 <Karen> …whether this is one or two docs

…whether this is one or two docs

17:35:58 <Karen> …but as a block, it's an adjacent document to Latin req for me

…but as a block, it's an adjacent document to Latin req for me

17:36:10 <Karen> Tim: if we satisfy page req and not Latin req too bad?

Scribe problem: the name 'Tim' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Tim Clark Timothy Cole . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Tim: if we satisfy page req and not Latin req too bad?

17:36:19 <Karen> Ivan: no, it's not a page related problem

Ivan Herman: no, it's not a page related problem

17:36:26 <Karen> Tim: header and footer are more page oriented

Scribe problem: the name 'Tim' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Tim Clark Timothy Cole . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Tim: header and footer are more page oriented

17:36:33 <Karen> Ivan: Latin req is not related to paging

Ivan Herman: Latin req is not related to paging

17:36:46 <Karen> Dave: Even paging stuff related to Latin req is to implement in OWP

Dave Cramer: Even paging stuff related to Latin req is to implement in OWP

17:36:55 <Karen> …is far beyond the basic pagination we are talking about

…is far beyond the basic pagination we are talking about

17:37:08 <TimCole> q-

Timothy Cole: q-

17:37:10 <Karen> …would involve going back up the tree

…would involve going back up the tree

17:37:16 <Karen> …to fix widows and orphans

…to fix widows and orphans

17:37:23 <Karen> …I don't expect that any time soon from OWP

…I don't expect that any time soon from OWP

17:37:31 <Karen> …wondering what more we need to describe fragments

…wondering what more we need to describe fragments

17:37:37 <Karen> Markus: In Latin req?

Markus Gylling: In Latin req?

17:37:43 <Karen> …so there are two questions

…so there are two questions

17:37:51 <Karen> …How do we do the page req, with a different perspective

…How do we do the page req, with a different perspective

17:38:03 <Karen> ..second are there things from publishing perspective missing from Latin req still

..second are there things from publishing perspective missing from Latin req still

17:38:09 <Karen> …Should we take second question first

…Should we take second question first

17:38:10 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

17:38:16 <Karen> …So nothing about spreads, or very limited

…So nothing about spreads, or very limited

17:38:23 <Karen> ..I think that is the top-level abstraction to describe

..I think that is the top-level abstraction to describe

17:38:29 <Karen> …Chapter five goes into widows and orphans

…Chapter five goes into widows and orphans

17:38:38 <Karen> …but the top most abstraction of page, or collection of pages

…but the top most abstraction of page, or collection of pages

17:38:42 <Karen> …that has a logical arrangement

…that has a logical arrangement

17:38:47 <Karen> Dave: A definition of what spread is

Dave Cramer: A definition of what spread is

17:38:58 <Karen> …and some of the constraints of how complex content interacts

…and some of the constraints of how complex content interacts

17:39:08 <Karen> …there will be replaced elements that span the spread

…there will be replaced elements that span the spread

17:39:13 <Karen> …like a picture that spans across the spread

…like a picture that spans across the spread

17:39:20 <Karen> Markus: yes, like a couple of screen shots

Markus Gylling: yes, like a couple of screen shots

17:39:27 <Karen> Liam: and a table that runs across a spread

Liam Quin: and a table that runs across a spread

17:39:32 <Karen> Markus: So spreads is one thing

Markus Gylling: So spreads is one thing

17:39:34 <Karen> …transitions

…transitions

17:39:38 <Karen> …should we go into that?

…should we go into that?

17:39:50 <Karen> …Comics industry is hypnotized by need for page transitions

…Comics industry is hypnotized by need for page transitions

17:39:57 <Karen> …Is it in scope for Latin req; yes or no?

…Is it in scope for Latin req; yes or no?

17:40:12 <Karen> Dave: Daniel was talking about these transitions that allow media and transition effects

Dave Cramer: Daniel was talking about these transitions that allow media and transition effects

17:40:17 <Karen> …transition ideas in Latin req

…transition ideas in Latin req

17:40:23 <Karen> ..more about borders and fragmentation of boxes

..more about borders and fragmentation of boxes

17:40:35 <Karen> …what happens to backgrounds when you have side bars from page to page

…what happens to backgrounds when you have side bars from page to page

17:40:48 <Karen> …omit top quarter on second fragment to indicate continuity of object as it is fragmented

…omit top quarter on second fragment to indicate continuity of object as it is fragmented

17:40:59 <Karen> …At least Latin req documenting a transition

…At least Latin req documenting a transition

17:41:04 <Karen> …no craft document to refer to

…no craft document to refer to

17:41:11 <Karen> Markus: I don't think we should go there right now

Markus Gylling: I don't think we should go there right now

17:41:14 <Karen> Ivan: And it's not

Ivan Herman: And it's not

17:41:22 <Karen> …I don't see why this would be Latin language specific

…I don't see why this would be Latin language specific

17:41:36 <Karen> Dave; Right; I'm not going to describe fire consuming one page

Dave; Right; I'm not going to describe fire consuming one page

17:41:54 <Karen> Markus: Dave, are you willing to take the action about spreads behavior and spread arrangements progression

Markus Gylling: Dave, are you willing to take the action about spreads behavior and spread arrangements progression

17:42:09 <Karen> Action: Dave to add new section to Latin req that describes spread behaviors

ACTION: Dave to add new section to Latin req that describes spread behaviors

17:42:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Add new section to latin req that describes spread behaviors [on Dave Cramer - due 2014-11-06].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-28 - Add new section to latin req that describes spread behaviors [on Dave Cramer - due 2014-11-06].

17:42:21 <Karen> Dave: The behavior of elements that cross the gutter

Dave Cramer: The behavior of elements that cross the gutter

17:42:28 <Karen> …use the terminology

…use the terminology

17:42:35 <Karen> Tim: only spreads from the classic print book?

Scribe problem: the name 'Tim' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Tim Clark Timothy Cole . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Tim: only spreads from the classic print book?

17:42:48 <Karen> …print analogs or also the scroll examples, spanning three pages for example?

…print analogs or also the scroll examples, spanning three pages for example?

17:42:56 <Karen> Dave: In some sense Latin req is documented print

Dave Cramer: In some sense Latin req is documented print

17:43:04 <Karen> …given the scope is already nearly infinite

…given the scope is already nearly infinite

17:43:08 <Karen> …sending scope to @

…sending scope to @

17:43:16 <Karen> ….is probably not something...

….is probably not something...

17:43:24 <Karen> …fold-outs and documenting idea

…fold-outs and documenting idea

17:43:28 <Karen> …that page orientation may change

…that page orientation may change

17:43:36 <Karen> Liam: fold-outs give more than a single spread

Liam Quin: fold-outs give more than a single spread

17:43:42 <Karen> Dave: spread may be two or more pages

Dave Cramer: spread may be two or more pages

17:43:59 <Karen> Markus: Like widows and orphans observation; need to focus on the fundamentals

Markus Gylling: Like widows and orphans observation; need to focus on the fundamentals

17:44:05 <Karen> …we can do the funky things some other year

…we can do the funky things some other year

17:44:13 <Karen> Dave: Page orientation is not fixed is good to know at this stage

Dave Cramer: Page orientation is not fixed is good to know at this stage

17:44:23 <Karen> …so you don't assume something that is no longer going to be true in other situations

…so you don't assume something that is no longer going to be true in other situations

17:44:28 <Karen> …not hard code it into your thinking

…not hard code it into your thinking

17:44:36 <Karen> Peter: especially items like that

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Krautzberger Peter Linss . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: especially items like that

17:44:46 <Karen> …implementations are easier when you assume page size won't change

…implementations are easier when you assume page size won't change

17:45:00 <Karen> …variations and spreads need to be taken into account early on or it will be harder to do later

…variations and spreads need to be taken into account early on or it will be harder to do later

17:45:05 <Karen> Dave: Diversity in print

Dave Cramer: Diversity in print

17:45:12 <Karen> …is hint of what will happen

…is hint of what will happen

17:45:18 <Karen> …address digital use cases now

…address digital use cases now

17:45:24 <Karen> …even if from a source with less flexibility

…even if from a source with less flexibility

17:45:32 <Karen> Markus: Another use case I heard from a poetry publisher

Markus Gylling: Another use case I heard from a poetry publisher

17:45:51 <Karen> …they wanted overflow for poem

…they wanted overflow for poem

17:46:04 <Karen> Dave: In length or width?

Dave Cramer: In length or width?

17:46:10 <Karen> Tzviya: Can go either way

Tzviya Siegman: Can go either way

17:46:14 <Karen> Brady: depends upon language

Brady Duga: depends upon language

17:46:21 <Karen> Dave: could happen in both directions

Dave Cramer: could happen in both directions

17:46:43 <Karen> Markus: publisher perspective in Latin req; anything else?

Markus Gylling: publisher perspective in Latin req; anything else?

17:46:49 <Karen> Peter: Did you cover bleeds?

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Krautzberger Peter Linss . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: Did you cover bleeds?

17:46:51 <Karen> …crop marks/

…crop marks/

17:47:03 <Karen> …when you circulate

…when you circulate

17:47:07 <Karen> Dave: CSS page

Dave Cramer: CSS page

17:47:15 <Karen> Peter: has been in CSS for a while

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Krautzberger Peter Linss . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: has been in CSS for a while

17:47:19 <Karen> Dave: It got discussed

Dave Cramer: It got discussed

17:47:35 <Karen> Markus: but fact that it's implemented does not mean we should not document it

Markus Gylling: but fact that it's implemented does not mean we should not document it

17:47:51 <Karen> Dave: right, but I don't want to go into the details for crop and registration marks and bars

Dave Cramer: right, but I don't want to go into the details for crop and registration marks and bars

17:48:03 <Karen> Peter: a general note that there are printer marks that are not considered overflow

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Krautzberger Peter Linss . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: a general note that there are printer marks that are not considered overflow

17:48:12 <Karen> …we don't want to trigger overflow mechanisms

…we don't want to trigger overflow mechanisms

17:48:14 <Karen> Dave: right

Dave Cramer: right

17:48:22 <Karen> …elements that should not trigger overflow

…elements that should not trigger overflow

17:48:28 <Karen> Action: Cover bleeds

ACTION: Cover bleeds

17:48:29 <trackbot> Error finding 'Cover'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/users>.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Error finding 'Cover'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/users>.

17:48:36 <Karen> Tzviya: STEM content in general

Tzviya Siegman: STEM content in general

17:48:39 <Karen> …a line in equations

…a line in equations

17:48:45 <Karen> ..we don't go into detail for styling or math

..we don't go into detail for styling or math

17:48:54 <Karen> Markus: pagination or line formatting

Markus Gylling: pagination or line formatting

17:49:01 <Karen> Dave: Would like to have in Latin req in future

Dave Cramer: Would like to have in Latin req in future

17:49:07 <Karen> …not in pagination right now

…not in pagination right now

17:49:15 <Karen> Tzviya: breaking reflow?

Tzviya Siegman: breaking reflow?

17:49:26 <Karen> Liam: when you set mathematics, you align all the equal signs vertically

Liam Quin: when you set mathematics, you align all the equal signs vertically

17:49:33 <Karen> …some publishers align

…some publishers align

17:49:41 <Karen> Tzviya: So we do talk about alignment

Tzviya Siegman: So we do talk about alignment

17:49:46 <Karen> Markus: But not an immediate priority

Markus Gylling: But not an immediate priority

17:49:50 <Karen> …specific to pagination

…specific to pagination

17:49:51 <Karen> Dave: right

Dave Cramer: right

17:49:55 <Karen> …spread is specific

…spread is specific

17:50:06 <Karen> @: Do we need a border line in the page function?

@: Do we need a border line in the page function?

17:50:14 <Karen> …to express this is the right or left hand page?

…to express this is the right or left hand page?

17:50:18 <Karen> …now it's empty

…now it's empty

17:50:24 <Karen> …some publishers ask us to put the border in

…some publishers ask us to put the border in

17:50:29 <Karen> Markus: What do we call this?

Markus Gylling: What do we call this?

17:50:36 <Karen> Dave: page gap, gutter

Dave Cramer: page gap, gutter

17:50:41 <Karen> Brady: gutter

Brady Duga: gutter

17:50:52 <Karen> Markus: that cam up in epub fixed layout

Markus Gylling: that cam up in epub fixed layout

17:50:58 <Karen> Brady: there should be a gap

Brady Duga: there should be a gap

17:51:13 <Karen> Dave: often we have an infinite array of margins and boxes

Dave Cramer: often we have an infinite array of margins and boxes

17:51:33 <Karen> Markus: Any more on Latin req from publisher perspective?

Markus Gylling: Any more on Latin req from publisher perspective?

17:51:38 <Karen> …David has his marching orders

…David has his marching orders

17:51:49 <Karen> …Would anyone like to sign up to help as an editor or co-editor

…Would anyone like to sign up to help as an editor or co-editor

17:51:55 <Karen> Dave: Fame and fortune awaits

Dave Cramer: Fame and fortune awaits

17:52:13 <Karen> Brady: what are you looking for?

Brady Duga: what are you looking for?

17:52:17 <Karen> …co-editor of Latin req

…co-editor of Latin req

17:52:26 <Karen> Markus: Let's move on to page req

Markus Gylling: Let's move on to page req

17:52:34 <Karen> …Brady, you were assigned the action item?

…Brady, you were assigned the action item?

17:52:38 <Karen> Brady: yes, I was assigned it

Brady Duga: yes, I was assigned it

17:52:43 <Karen> …I said I would do it

…I said I would do it

17:52:47 <Karen> …I have not yet done it

…I have not yet done it

17:52:51 <Karen> …I can attempt to do it

…I can attempt to do it

17:53:01 <Karen> …unless someone else wants to write it

…unless someone else wants to write it

17:53:09 <Karen> …I have had a busy two months due to time

…I have had a busy two months due to time

17:53:16 <Karen> …might be able to get to it soonish

…might be able to get to it soonish

17:53:26 <Karen> Markus: Anybody who would like to sign up as a co-editor for page req?

Markus Gylling: Anybody who would like to sign up as a co-editor for page req?

17:53:30 <Karen> Markus: I'll sign up

Markus Gylling: I'll sign up

17:53:49 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

17:54:03 <Karen> Liam: I cannot be primary editor but will help with process and mechanical reviews

Liam Quin: I cannot be primary editor but will help with process and mechanical reviews

17:54:06 <Karen> …I have experience

…I have experience

17:54:22 <Karen> Bill: you'll be a contributor

Bill Kasdorf: you'll be a contributor

17:54:26 <Karen> Liam: yes

Liam Quin: yes

17:54:44 <Karen> Action: Brady to start authoring page req doc with assistance from Markus and Liam

ACTION: Brady to start authoring page req doc with assistance from Markus and Liam

17:54:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Start authoring page req doc with assistance from markus and liam [on Brady Duga - due 2014-11-06].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-29 - Start authoring page req doc with assistance from markus and liam [on Brady Duga - due 2014-11-06].

17:55:03 <Karen> Markus: Is scope of page req clear to you?

Markus Gylling: Is scope of page req clear to you?

17:55:07 <Karen> …should we document in the minutes?

…should we document in the minutes?

17:55:15 <Karen> …would you like to give a try?

…would you like to give a try?

17:55:31 <Karen> Brady: It's the requirements of a reading system implementation for access to certain page and page level elements

Brady Duga: It's the requirements of a reading system implementation for access to certain page and page level elements

17:55:40 <Karen> …so you can actually create a reading system

…so you can actually create a reading system

17:55:56 <Karen> …and get everything styled in Latin req

…and get everything styled in Latin req

17:56:03 <Karen> …elements on pages, initiate transitions

…elements on pages, initiate transitions

17:56:13 <Karen> …in some sense turning the use cases into a requirements document

…in some sense turning the use cases into a requirements document

17:56:18 <bkardell_> q+

Scribe problem: the name 'bkardell_' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'bkardell_' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bkardell_: q+

17:56:30 <Karen> Markus: According to the schedule we have four minutes left

Markus Gylling: According to the schedule we have four minutes left

17:56:36 <Karen> ack bkardell

ack bkardell

17:56:42 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

17:56:54 <Karen> bkardell: First time I have heard of page req

Scribe problem: the name 'bkardell' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bkardell: First time I have heard of page req

17:57:00 <Karen> …is there an existing page?

…is there an existing page?

17:57:07 <Karen> Markus: Latin req exist, but not page req

Markus Gylling: Latin req exist, but not page req

17:57:13 <Karen> bkardell: ok, just curious

Scribe problem: the name 'bkardell' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bkardell: ok, just curious

17:57:18 <Karen> …I would like to see notes about it

…I would like to see notes about it

17:57:22 <Karen> Dave: What I am describing now

Dave Cramer: What I am describing now

17:57:27 <Karen> …is some use cases

…is some use cases

17:57:42 <Karen> @: Could you go through with me?

Brian Kardell: Could you go through with me?

17:57:47 <Karen> Dave: yes, I can do that

Dave Cramer: yes, I can do that

17:57:52 <Karen> Ivan: for minutes

Ivan Herman: for minutes

17:58:01 <Karen> Brian Kardell, on CSS WG and JQuery Foundation

Brian Kardell, on CSS WG and JQuery Foundation

17:58:06 <ivan> Present+ Brian_

Ivan Herman: Present+ Brian_

17:58:09 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

17:58:13 <Karen> s/@/Brian Kardell
17:58:25 <Karen> Ivan: Thanks, everyone

Ivan Herman: Thanks, everyone

17:58:30 <Karen> …while we are on action list

…while we are on action list

17:58:32 <Karen> …we also said

…we also said

17:58:37 <Karen> …not sure if Brady will include it

…not sure if Brady will include it

17:58:44 <tzviya_> use cases for Page Req: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory#Pagination.2FDOM_interaction

Tzviya Siegman: use cases for Page Req: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory#Pagination.2FDOM_interaction

17:58:46 <Karen> …is to have some striking examples in PDF that we cannot do

…is to have some striking examples in PDF that we cannot do

17:58:52 <Karen> …would be a good idea to have

…would be a good idea to have

17:58:59 <Karen> Brady: what exactly you are looking at

Brady Duga: what exactly you are looking at

17:59:14 <Karen> Ivan: Something Tzviya said, some cases that she has that she can only do in PDF as a publisher

Ivan Herman: Something Tzviya said, some cases that she has that she can only do in PDF as a publisher

17:59:22 <Karen> Brady: That sounds like Latin req rather than page req

Brady Duga: That sounds like Latin req rather than page req

17:59:32 <Karen> Dave: we're talking about a book store

Dave Cramer: we're talking about a book store

17:59:38 <Karen> Liam: Something that speaks to CSS WG well

Liam Quin: Something that speaks to CSS WG well

17:59:47 <Karen> …I have noticed is places where you can almost get there from CSS

…I have noticed is places where you can almost get there from CSS

17:59:52 <Karen> …so you give an incomplete example

…so you give an incomplete example

18:00:02 <Karen> Dave: Like drop caps; could make bad ones but not good ones

Dave Cramer: Like drop caps; could make bad ones but not good ones

18:00:13 <Karen> Liam: so then CSS usually says we should fix that

Liam Quin: so then CSS usually says we should fix that

18:00:20 <Karen> Tzviya: like books in graphic design

Tzviya Siegman: like books in graphic design

18:00:29 <Karen> Bill: focus on main cases not fringe cases

Bill Kasdorf: focus on main cases not fringe cases

18:00:39 <Karen> Liam: Group could say it out of scope; give them something simple

Liam Quin: Group could say it out of scope; give them something simple

18:00:52 <Karen> …we cannot paginate our own anniversary document

…we cannot paginate our own anniversary document

18:01:10 <Karen> Action: Tzviya to provide PDF examples of paginated content that cannot be done online

ACTION: Tzviya to provide PDF examples of paginated content that cannot be done online

18:01:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - Provide pdf examples of paginated content that cannot be done online [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-06].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-30 - Provide pdf examples of paginated content that cannot be done online [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-06].

18:01:21 <Karen> Ivan: And what should we do with the business case kind of document

Ivan Herman: And what should we do with the business case kind of document

18:01:29 <Karen> …The three of us plus Karen will have to talk to people

…The three of us plus Karen will have to talk to people

18:01:45 <Karen> Action: Karen to initiate bus use case

ACTION: Karen to initiate bus use case

18:01:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-31 - Initiate bus use case [on Karen Myers - due 2014-11-06].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-31 - Initiate bus use case [on Karen Myers - due 2014-11-06].

18:01:52 <Karen> Markus: Logistics

Markus Gylling: Logistics

18:01:54 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

18:01:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan

18:02:00 <Karen> …Tzviya, you have arranged additional meetings

…Tzviya, you have arranged additional meetings

18:02:07 <Karen> Tzviya: I have updated the wiki

Tzviya Siegman: I have updated the wiki

18:02:10 <tzviya_> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F#Mid-day_break_with_ad-hoc_meetings_.28plus_lunch.29

Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F#Mid-day_break_with_ad-hoc_meetings_.28plus_lunch.29

18:02:19 <Karen> …we have a meeting with Accessible Authoring Group tomorrow at 1pm

…we have a meeting with Accessible Authoring Group tomorrow at 1pm

18:02:29 <Karen> …we'll re-arrange schedule slightly tomorrow

…we'll re-arrange schedule slightly tomorrow

18:02:38 <Karen> …1:00pm Accessible Authoring tools on 31 October

…1:00pm Accessible Authoring tools on 31 October

18:02:43 <Karen> ..everyone is welcome

..everyone is welcome

18:02:52 <Karen> …lunch will be 12-1

…lunch will be 12-1

18:03:08 <Karen> Tzviya: Today we convene at 2pm to meet with Protocols and Formats WG

Tzviya Siegman: Today we convene at 2pm to meet with Protocols and Formats WG

18:03:18 <Karen> Deborah: So nothing scheduled during break?

Deborah Kaplan: So nothing scheduled during break?

18:03:21 <Karen> Tzviya: Correct

Tzviya Siegman: Correct

18:03:29 <Karen> Markus: Any final comments on pagination topic?

Markus Gylling: Any final comments on pagination topic?

18:03:36 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

18:03:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan

18:03:47 <Karen> …Enjoy lunch and see you at 2pm

…Enjoy lunch and see you at 2pm

20:55:34 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

(No events recorded for 171 minutes)

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

20:55:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Seattle

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Seattle

20:55:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see fettes, takeshi, ShaneM, ivan, mgylling, clapierre, tzviya, azaroth_, fantasai, mihnea_____, Bert, Zakim, RRSAgent, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see fettes, takeshi, ShaneM, ivan, mgylling, clapierre, tzviya, azaroth_, fantasai, mihnea_____, Bert, Zakim, RRSAgent, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot

20:59:30 <MichaelC> zakim, code?

Scribe problem: the name 'MichaelC' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'MichaelC' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown MichaelC: zakim, code?

20:59:30 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MichaelC

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MichaelC

21:00:47 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
21:01:08 <ivan> Topic: Joint meeting with PF WG -- structural semantics

1. Joint meeting with PF WG -- structural semantics

21:03:39 <ivan> zakim, pick a victim

Ivan Herman: zakim, pick a victim

21:03:39 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Seattle

Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Seattle

21:04:12 <ivan> zakim, pick a victim

Ivan Herman: zakim, pick a victim

21:04:12 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Seattle

Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Seattle

21:04:24 <glazou> ROFL

Scribe problem: the name 'glazou' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'glazou' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown glazou: ROFL

21:04:51 <liam> scribenick: Liam

(Scribe set to Liam Quin)

21:05:28 <liam> [people introduce one another]

[people introduce one another]

21:06:00 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: present+ ShaneM

21:06:07 <mhakkinen> Mark Hakkinen - ETS

Markku Hakkinen: Mark Hakkinen - ETS

21:06:23 <ivan> Present+ Mark_Hakkinen

Ivan Herman: Present+ Mark_Hakkinen

21:06:34 <Ryladog> present+ Katie Haritos-Shea (as Ryladog)

Scribe problem: the name 'Ryladog' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Ryladog' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ryladog: present+ Katie Haritos-Shea (as Ryladog)

21:06:37 <ivan> Present+ Janina_Sajka

Ivan Herman: Present+ Janina_Sajka

21:06:55 <jnurthen> Present+ James_Nurthen

Scribe problem: the name 'jnurthen' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jnurthen' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jnurthen: Present+ James_Nurthen

21:07:03 <marcjohlic> Marc Johlic - IBM / WCAG

Scribe problem: the name 'marcjohlic' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'marcjohlic' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown marcjohlic: Marc Johlic - IBM / WCAG

21:07:29 <ivan> Present+ Richard_Schwerdtfeger

Ivan Herman: Present+ Richard_Schwerdtfeger

21:07:39 <ShaneM> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#Day_1

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#Day_1

21:07:42 <ivan> Present+ Marc_Johlic

Ivan Herman: Present+ Marc_Johlic

21:07:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html MichaelC

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html MichaelC

21:08:43 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs

Scribe problem: the name 'joanie' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'joanie' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown joanie: present+ Joanmarie_Diggs

21:09:47 <jongund> present+ Jon Gunderson

Scribe problem: the name 'jongund' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jongund' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jongund: present+ Jon Gunderson

21:10:01 <ivan> Present+ Rob_Cromwell

Ivan Herman: Present+ Rob_Cromwell

21:10:38 <ivan> Present+ Michael_Cooper

Ivan Herman: Present+ Michael_Cooper

21:11:24 <ivan> Present+ Shane_McCarron

Ivan Herman: Present+ Shane_McCarron

21:11:53 <jongund> present+ jongund

Scribe problem: the name 'jongund' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jongund' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jongund: present+ jongund

21:12:03 <jongund> Present+ jongund

Scribe problem: the name 'jongund' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jongund' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jongund: Present+ jongund

21:12:23 <liam> tzviya: [gives brief intro to concept of more detailed semantics in HTML markup with role attributes]

Tzviya Siegman: [gives brief intro to concept of more detailed semantics in HTML markup with role attributes]

21:14:32 <liam> [projecting: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-content-and-markup/ ]

[projecting: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-content-and-markup/ ]

21:15:00 <liam> Janina: [gives example of knowing where a footnote begins and ends, and how to go back to where yu came from even if a footnote is referenced from multiple places in content]

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Janina: [gives example of knowing where a footnote begins and ends, and how to go back to where yu came from even if a footnote is referenced from multiple places in content]

21:15:38 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

21:15:42 <liam> tzviya: thanks, associated behaviours is important to mention

Tzviya Siegman: thanks, associated behaviours is important to mention

21:15:45 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q-

21:16:21 <liam> Rob: are the roles associated only with section element?

Scribe problem: the name 'Rob' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Rob: are the roles associated only with section element?

21:16:41 <liam> tzviya: it's up to the author to associate inflection with an element, sections are often nested, so maybe we do need to define an endpoint

Tzviya Siegman: it's up to the author to associate inflection with an element, sections are often nested, so maybe we do need to define an endpoint

21:18:10 <liam> [questions about the TF charter]

[questions about the TF charter]

21:18:54 <liam> Rob: when do we get started?

Scribe problem: the name 'Rob' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Rob: when do we get started?

21:19:01 <liam> Janina: today is good!

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Janina: today is good!

21:19:19 <liam> Mark: QTI is question/test interoperability language

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Mark: QTI is question/test interoperability language

21:19:42 <liam> ...used by Pearson and others have thousands and thousands of questions and answers in this XML format.

...used by Pearson and others have thousands and thousands of questions and answers in this XML format.

21:19:52 <liam> We want to be able to take some of the semantics we have in QTA into HTML

We want to be able to take some of the semantics we have in QTA into HTML

21:20:04 <liam> ...to help in understanding the test tructure, as roles

...to help in understanding the test tructure, as roles

21:20:29 <liam> There may be some specific ARIA properties we'd like to look at bringing over too. We have the Accessible Portable Item Profile task force,

There may be some specific ARIA properties we'd like to look at bringing over too. We have the Accessible Portable Item Profile task force,

21:20:40 <liam> APIP is a layer on top of QTA to define additional a11y.

APIP is a layer on top of QTA to define additional a11y.

21:21:05 <liam> ... Our TF is looking at long term goal of harmonizing QTA with HTML5 so yuo can author directly into your test item, makes transform more straight forward.

... Our TF is looking at long term goal of harmonizing QTA with HTML5 so yuo can author directly into your test item, makes transform more straight forward.

21:21:13 <liam> We have brought ARIA into QTA.

We have brought ARIA into QTI.

21:21:39 <tzviya> s/QTA/QTI
21:21:40 <liam> ... Also we have included speech pronunciation SSML, CSS speech, PLS lexicon spec from EPUB

... Also we have included speech pronunciation SSML, CSS speech, PLS lexicon spec from EPUB

21:21:59 <liam> ... But there's not yet uptake from user agents or assistive technologies.

... But there's not yet uptake from user agents or assistive technologies.

21:22:02 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

21:22:25 <liam> Janina: so let's just bring it up. Longsdesc is just about done for HTML 5 but it's not enough

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Janina: so let's just bring it up. Longsdesc is just about done for HTML 5 but it's not enough

21:22:55 <liam> Mark: When you have complex images, e.g. the water cycle, in text books, we need a way to author the alternate versions of that image,

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Mark: When you have complex images, e.g. the water cycle, in text books, we need a way to author the alternate versions of that image,

21:23:25 <liam> ... e.g. a simplified image, an embossed tactile file, a 3d image, need to capture this with the image, as well as long image description.

... e.g. a simplified image, an embossed tactile file, a 3d image, need to capture this with the image, as well as long image description.

21:23:35 <liam> ... E.g. the diagram content model.

... E.g. the diagram content model.

21:23:42 <azaroth> Not to derail the conversation, but accessibility contributions could be made via Annotations

Robert Sanderson: Not to derail the conversation, but accessibility contributions could be made via Annotations

21:23:51 <tzviya> +1

Tzviya Siegman: +1

21:23:55 <liam> Janina: If you (HTML) opposed longdesc, help us build a better mousetrap.

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Janina: If you (HTML) opposed longdesc, help us build a better mousetrap.

21:24:03 <cyns> q+

Scribe problem: the name 'cyns' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'cyns' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown cyns: q+

21:24:09 <cyns> q?

Scribe problem: the name 'cyns' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'cyns' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown cyns: q?

21:24:26 <liam> Many people have not seen good image descriptions, only bad ones.

Many people have not seen good image descriptions, only bad ones.

21:25:09 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

21:25:17 <liam> Mark: delivering a test with image descriptions, we may restrict which versions the student can get at test time, but more flexible for studying.

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Mark: delivering a test with image descriptions, we may restrict which versions the student can get at test time, but more flexible for studying.

21:25:28 <liam> We have WGB H-trained writers of image descriptions,

We have WGBH-trained writers of image descriptions,

21:25:44 <liam> ... but we're stuck not having mechanisms for delivering them.

... but we're stuck not having mechanisms for delivering them.

21:26:06 <joanie> s/WGB H/WGBH/
21:26:28 <liam> Cynthia: Our last meeting was  with SVG WG; water cycle good e.g. of an image you'd want to have explorable, ave you considered that?

Scribe problem: the name 'Cynthia' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Cynthia: Our last meeting was with SVG WG; water cycle good e.g. of an image you'd want to have explorable, ave you considered that?

21:26:31 <liam> Mark: yes.

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Mark: yes.

21:26:44 <liam> tzviya: someone else noted annotations may be a good way forward too.

Tzviya Siegman: someone else noted annotations may be a good way forward too.

21:27:00 <liam> ... Our immediate conversation was to have a module for a vocabulary.

... Our immediate conversation was to have a module for a vocabulary.

21:27:28 <azaroth> +1 to focusing on the topic at hand

Robert Sanderson: +1 to focusing on the topic at hand

21:27:37 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

21:27:45 <tzviya> ack cyns

Tzviya Siegman: ack cyns

21:27:50 <azaroth> ack +1

Robert Sanderson: ack +1

21:27:50 <Zakim> +1, you wanted to focusing on the topic at

Zakim IRC Bot: +1, you wanted to focusing on the topic at

21:28:09 <liam> Mark: is there anyone objecting to opening up role/value beyond what was specified beyond accessibility?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: is there anyone objecting to opening up role/value beyond what was specified beyond accessibility?

21:28:16 <liam> open up the validator.

open up the validator.

21:28:45 <liam> Janina: you mean a limited vocabulary?

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Janina: you mean a limited vocabulary?

21:28:52 <liam> Marcus: it could be unbounded

Markus Gylling: it could be unbounded

21:29:00 <liam> s/Mark/Rich/
21:29:18 <mgylling> s/Marcus/Markus/
21:29:27 <liam> [discussion, how restricted should the list be?]

[discussion, how restricted should the list be?]

21:29:30 <ivan> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch

Ivan Herman: Present+ Frederick_Hirsch

21:29:58 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

21:30:10 <liam> Zen: a list, or could I jjust use chapter as a role?

Scribe problem: the name 'Zen' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Zen: a list, or could I jjust use chapter as a role?

21:30:21 <liam> Rick: yuo could use chapter, and if the browser didn't know what it was, it'd fall back to its default.

Richard Schwerdtfeger: yuo could use chapter, and if the browser didn't know what it was, it'd fall back to its default.

21:30:38 <liam> Mark: who would object - what about with the AT companies?

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Mark: who would object - what about with the AT companies?

21:30:47 <liam> They're going to have to do work from their perspective.

They're going to have to do work from their perspective.

21:31:11 <liam> Rick: I had a call with one AT vendor, need something I can share.

Richard Schwerdtfeger: I had a call with one AT vendor, need something I can share.

21:31:37 <liam> Mark: when we apply a role, the role isn't necessarily human-readable, might not be announced by the AT, so how to attach a label?

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Mark: when we apply a role, the role isn't necessarily human-readable, might not be announced by the AT, so how to attach a label?

21:31:53 <liam> Rick: we're talking about a localized role for ARIA 1.1, still having those discussions

Richard Schwerdtfeger: we're talking about a localized role for ARIA 1.1, still having those discussions

21:31:59 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about providing role descriptions

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: q+ to ask about providing role descriptions

21:32:01 <joanie> s/Rick/Rich/g
21:32:08 <liam> Mark: lots of whiteboard discussions

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Mark: lots of whiteboard discussions

21:32:26 <liam> E.g. might be chapter but in the book Canto

E.g. might be chapter but in the book Canto

21:32:39 <liam> Zen: but what will a validator say?

Scribe problem: the name 'Jon' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Jon: but what will a validator say?

21:32:57 <ShaneM> s/Zen/Jon/
21:33:19 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

21:33:32 <liam> Rich: we've got an aria reader we've expanded to read epub, but for books it'd be helpful to know, there should bea real definition

Richard Schwerdtfeger: we've got an aria reader we've expanded to read epub, but for books it'd be helpful to know, there should bea real definition

21:33:58 <liam> tzviya: some things are documenting definitions and mapping for AT. If there's a typo it's not valid.

Tzviya Siegman: some things are documenting definitions and mapping for AT. If there's a typo it's not valid.

21:34:10 <liam> So we don't plan just to throw this out in the wild.

So we don't plan just to throw this out in the wild.

21:34:33 <tzviya> ack liam

Tzviya Siegman: ack liam

21:34:38 <tzviya> ack ShaneM

Tzviya Siegman: ack ShaneM

21:34:38 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about providing role descriptions

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to ask about providing role descriptions

21:34:48 <liam> Shane: On the validator.... can do whatever it wants, and HTML 5 community alerady has certain things that have a community-expandable

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: On the validator.... can do whatever it wants, and HTML 5 community alerady has certain things that have a community-expandable

21:35:01 <liam> ... list of values, and the validator still deals with.

... list of values, and the validator still deals with.

21:35:27 <liam> But, role descriptions, being able to assign a description to an arbitrary role, not per-element but across a document, that's SEXY

But, role descriptions, being able to assign a description to an arbitrary role, not per-element but across a document, that's SEXY

21:36:19 <liam> Markus: instead of repeating aria-label=canto throughout the document you put it once in the head.

Markus Gylling: instead of repeating aria-label=canto throughout the document you put it once in the head.

21:36:29 <liam> Mark: in NISO we used to have an external resource file.

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Mark: in NISO we used to have an external resource file.

21:37:41 <tzviya> liam: supports idea od extensible list, but open list could be dangerous because people may use terms in unintended ways

Liam Quin: supports idea od extensible list, but open list could be dangerous because people may use terms in unintended ways [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ]

21:37:56 <tzviya> ...chapter can mean a  chapter of chapter of a club

Tzviya Siegman: ...chapter can mean a chapter of chapter of a club

21:37:56 <cyns> +1

Scribe problem: the name 'cyns' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'cyns' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown cyns: +1

21:38:13 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

21:38:19 <liam> Rich: if we had an extensible list would that work for publishing?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: if we had an extensible list would that work for publishing?

21:38:25 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

21:38:28 <azaroth> +1 to modeling after link rel registry

Robert Sanderson: +1 to modeling after link rel registry

21:38:34 <liam> Markus: like rel/rev registry? yes.

Markus Gylling: like rel/rev registry? yes.

21:39:00 <liam> Markus: Could be decentralised, different communities could have their own and register as needed.

Markus Gylling: Could be decentralised, different communities could have their own and register as needed.

21:39:16 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

21:39:33 <liam> [discussion of vocabulary spaces, prefixes in epub not being used]

[discussion of vocabulary spaces, prefixes in epub not being used]

21:39:35 <tzviya> ack ivan

Tzviya Siegman: ack ivan

21:40:10 <liam> Ivan: I'd like to understand where we are. What we say is it's a possibility to use the role attribute so that this group or IDPF or wheover defines the terms for role for digital publishing.

Ivan Herman: I'd like to understand where we are. What we say is it's a possibility to use the role attribute so that this group or IDPF or wheover defines the terms for role for digital publishing.

21:40:38 <liam> ... Shane [tells us] this is no problem with the HTML validator, as anyone can come and plug in these terms,

... Shane [tells us] this is no problem with the HTML validator, as anyone can come and plug in these terms,

21:40:48 <liam> ... or do we still have to negotiate? What are the roadblocks?

... or do we still have to negotiate? What are the roadblocks?

21:41:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Bill Kasdorf: q+

21:41:46 <liam> Shane: we'd ned to persuade whomever that a role registry needs to be established similar to the rel registry, for which there is already a precedent.

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: we'd ned to persuade whomever that a role registry needs to be established similar to the rel registry, for which there is already a precedent.

21:42:25 <liam> JohnF: it used to be a wiki page with HTML 5; there was no gatekeeper but not sure on status.

Scribe problem: the name 'JohnF' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown JohnF: it used to be a wiki page with HTML 5; there was no gatekeeper but not sure on status.

21:42:32 <azaroth> Are we not talking about http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml ?

Robert Sanderson: Are we not talking about http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml ?

21:42:38 <liam> tzviya: I think we want a gatekeeper as this has to be functional ARIA

Tzviya Siegman: I think we want a gatekeeper as this has to be functional ARIA

21:42:58 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

21:43:26 <liam> Ivan: why does HTML have to change? There are a limited number of values.

Ivan Herman: why does HTML have to change? There are a limited number of values.

21:43:33 <MichaelC_> q+ to mention aria module module

Scribe problem: the name 'MichaelC_' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'MichaelC_' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown MichaelC_: q+ to mention aria module module

21:43:36 <liam> Shane: HTML defers to ARIA, the list isn't in the HTML spec.

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: HTML defers to ARIA, the list isn't in the HTML spec.

21:43:53 <liam> Markus: they have a table of restrictions on where ARIA attribtes are allowed

Markus Gylling: they have a table of restrictions on where ARIA attribtes are allowed

21:44:13 <liam> Rich: You put a checkbox and it says true but aria says false, that's an example HTML restriction.

Richard Schwerdtfeger: You put a checkbox and it says true but aria says false, that's an example HTML restriction.

21:44:21 <liam> Ivan: is this a roadblock for us?

Ivan Herman: is this a roadblock for us?

21:44:24 <liam> Rich: no.

Richard Schwerdtfeger: no.

21:44:39 <liam> Ivan: what changes in ARIA?

Ivan Herman: what changes in ARIA?

21:44:46 <liam> Markus: has to point to registry

Markus Gylling: has to point to registry

21:45:03 <liam> Rich: you're going to create a taxonomy and when it's ready you add it to the registry.

Richard Schwerdtfeger: you're going to create a taxonomy and when it's ready you add it to the registry.

21:45:32 <liam> Shane: you register your terms, say where the description is, and if that were done in how the roles relate to the existin ARIA taxomony the AT devs would know what to do

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: you register your terms, say where the description is, and if that were done in how the roles relate to the existin ARIA taxomony the AT devs would know what to do

21:46:27 <liam> Markus: if your plan is to stay with OWL then makes sense to plug in to that framework.

Markus Gylling: if your plan is to stay with OWL then makes sense to plug in to that framework.

21:46:52 <liam> Rich: we'll probably not publish OWL in the ARIA spec, but it's helpful to us as desighers of the taxonomy

Richard Schwerdtfeger: we'll probably not publish OWL in the ARIA spec, but it's helpful to us as desighers of the taxonomy

21:47:07 <liam> MikeCooper: want to offer possibility of ARIA modules to extend the taxonomy,

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Unknown MikeCooper: want to offer possibility of ARIA modules to extend the taxonomy,

21:47:27 <liam> ... so a community like epub would do an extension. Reason to submit to PF WG is to prevent collisions.

... so a community like epub would do an extension. Reason to submit to PF WG is to prevent collisions.

21:47:30 <MichaelC_> ack me

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Scribe problem: the name 'MichaelC_' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown MichaelC_: ack me

21:47:30 <Zakim> MichaelC_, you wanted to mention aria module module

Zakim IRC Bot: MichaelC_, you wanted to mention aria module module

21:47:41 <liam> Ivan: what out of this has to go through a Rec track?

Ivan Herman: what out of this has to go through a Rec track?

21:47:51 <liam> Rich: we're going to make a module for the book semantics

Richard Schwerdtfeger: we're going to make a module for the book semantics

21:48:10 <liam> Ivan: the beauty of a registry is that if there's some sort of a community which controls the content, e.g. IDPF as an organization,

Ivan Herman: the beauty of a registry is that if there's some sort of a community which controls the content, e.g. IDPF as an organization,

21:48:22 <liam> ... then why should that go through the painful exercise of W3C Recommendation?

... then why should that go through the painful exercise of W3C Recommendation?

21:48:34 <liam> Janina: if it's an IDPF validator I suppose not.

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Unknown Janina: if it's an IDPF validator I suppose not.

21:49:17 <liam> Rich: you wanted this to work with AT vendors. Each platform has its own services layer. Have you looked at any of that?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: you wanted this to work with AT vendors. Each platform has its own services layer. Have you looked at any of that?

21:49:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-

Bill Kasdorf: q-

21:50:11 <liam> Ivan: publishers I think need these terms yesterday. SO publish list, go through the registry and validator,

Ivan Herman: publishers I think need these terms yesterday. SO publish list, go through the registry and validator,

21:50:24 <liam> ... and a 2nd step could be a Rec. This IG has a charter for only one more year.

... and a 2nd step could be a Rec. This IG has a charter for only one more year.

21:51:14 <liam> Rich: how do we know yu're not going to have collisions? Two roles that mean the same thing.

Richard Schwerdtfeger: how do we know yu're not going to have collisions? Two roles that mean the same thing.

21:51:35 <liam> ... We're suggesting the subteam would work to prevent duplication.

... We're suggesting the subteam would work to prevent duplication.

21:52:13 <liam> Janina: it's a clash between their list and a list we have elsewhere [that's the problem]

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Unknown Janina: it's a clash between their list and a list we have elsewhere [that's the problem]

21:52:33 <liam> Janina: how do you keep it from clashing over tme.

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Unknown Janina: how do you keep it from clashing over tme.

21:52:56 <liam> Laura: I think Ivan's concern is W3C's process is slow and top-heavy.

Deborah Kaplan: I think Ivan's concern is W3C's process is slow and top-heavy.

21:53:08 <liam> ... You dn't necessarily need to go through the W3C approval process.

... You dn't necessarily need to go through the W3C approval process.

21:53:16 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

21:53:43 <liam> tzviya: we're not suggesting giving you our existing terms, we'd like help

Tzviya Siegman: we're not suggesting giving you our existing terms, we'd like help

21:54:10 <liam> Ivan: can't do a Rec in 12 months

Ivan Herman: can't do a Rec in 12 months

21:54:16 <liam> Liam: fastest I know of is 2 years.

Liam Quin: fastest I know of is 2 years.

21:54:17 <dkaplan3> s/Laura/Deborah
21:54:46 <liam> Shane: no need for a rec track.

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Unknown Shane: no need for a rec track.

21:55:27 <liam> Markus: suggestion is that aria role vocab changes from being a table of stuff inside a rec-track doc to being an external online resource that can be appended to

Markus Gylling: suggestion is that aria role vocab changes from being a table of stuff inside a rec-track doc to being an external online resource that can be appended to

21:55:43 <liam> PF is the caretaker of this registry. Others come along and make submissions.

PF is the caretaker of this registry. Others come along and make submissions.

21:56:04 <liam> You have a set of requirements to make a submission, e.g OWL ontology.

You have a set of requirements to make a submission, e.g OWL ontology.

21:56:13 <liam> ... IDPF, ETS etc would come to you with this more agile framework.

... IDPF, ETS etc would come to you with this more agile framework.

21:56:24 <liam> Rich: I don't have an issue with this.

Richard Schwerdtfeger: I don't have an issue with this.

21:56:29 <liam> Shane: that's what I propose.

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Unknown Shane: that's what I propose.

21:56:30 <mhakkinen> +1 to Markus

Markku Hakkinen: +1 to Markus

21:56:31 <liam> Ivan: +1

Ivan Herman: +1

21:56:44 <liam> Janina: [ +1 ]

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Unknown Janina: [ +1 ]

21:56:46 <Ryladog> q+

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Scribe problem: the name 'Ryladog' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ryladog: q+

21:56:59 <liam> Markus: to ARIA would change to take out the table?

Markus Gylling: to ARIA would change to take out the table?

21:57:33 <liam> Rich: If you start going into states and properties, that gets really messy

Richard Schwerdtfeger: If you start going into states and properties, that gets really messy

21:57:53 <liam> MichaelCooper: if this change is accepted it's not a hard editorial change for us.

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Unknown MichaelCooper: if this change is accepted it's not a hard editorial change for us.

21:57:54 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

21:58:43 <liam> Liam: ARIA could leave values in the spec and say that the registry is additional, and pre-populate the reistry.

Liam Quin: ARIA could leave values in the spec and say that the registry is additional, and pre-populate the reistry.

21:58:49 <ShaneM> See the current "registry" at http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab

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Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: See the current "registry" at http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab

21:59:17 <liam> Ryladog: so this is a recommendation to make a non-normative resource taht could be part of ARIA? Sort of like techniques doc for WCAG:

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Unknown Ryladog: so this is a recommendation to make a non-normative resource taht could be part of ARIA? Sort of like techniques doc for WCAG:

21:59:25 <ShaneM> q?

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: q?

21:59:43 <liam> Rich: it'd be a registry, a glossary of values with definitions, and that'd be a normative definition in terms of the role value

Richard Schwerdtfeger: it'd be a registry, a glossary of values with definitions, and that'd be a normative definition in terms of the role value

22:00:06 <liam> Ryladog: could be continuallyupdated or improved

Scribe problem: the name 'Ryladog' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ryladog: could be continuallyupdated or improved

22:00:17 <liam> but PF would be responsible for non-collisions.

but PF would be responsible for non-collisions.

22:01:14 <liam> tzviya: [shows IDPF glossary work]

Tzviya Siegman: [shows IDPF glossary work]

22:01:25 <tzviya> http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/

Tzviya Siegman: http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/

22:01:40 <liam> http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/#h_glossaries

http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/#h_glossaries

22:02:26 <liam> [ tzviya projects http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab ]

[ tzviya projects http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab ]

22:03:50 <liam> Markus: intent with glossary from idpf is that if it sits on a dl element the scope of the glossary is the dl element only.

Markus Gylling: intent with glossary from idpf is that if it sits on a dl element the scope of the glossary is the dl element only.

22:04:39 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

22:04:57 <tzviya> ack Ryladog

Tzviya Siegman: ack Ryladog

22:05:19 <liam> [ questions about APIs ]

[ questions about APIs ]

22:05:30 <liam> Ryladog: governments would need something normative for API stuff

Scribe problem: the name 'Ryladog' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ryladog: governments would need something normative for API stuff

22:05:38 <liam> Ivan: does an IDPF document serve?

Ivan Herman: does an IDPF document serve?

22:05:51 <liam> Ryladog: if it's a recognised standards body, depends on the government.

Scribe problem: the name 'Ryladog' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ryladog: if it's a recognised standards body, depends on the government.

22:06:32 <liam> Rich: I tell people this about standards: often the technology is the easy part; you have tooling, policy,...

Richard Schwerdtfeger: I tell people this about standards: often the technology is the easy part; you have tooling, policy,...

22:07:44 <liam> [ PF WG, quality control questions ]

[ PF WG, quality control questions ]

22:07:51 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

22:08:31 <liam> ACTION: ShaneM to create a registry for ARIA roles in HTML 5

ACTION: ShaneM to create a registry for ARIA roles in HTML 5

22:08:31 <trackbot> Error finding 'ShaneM'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/users>.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Error finding 'ShaneM'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/users>.

22:09:45 <liam> tzviya: this needs to be backwards compatible.

Tzviya Siegman: this needs to be backwards compatible.

22:10:23 <liam> Can we change these descriptions?

Can we change these descriptions?

22:10:29 <liam> Shane: [yes, can change]

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: [yes, can change]

22:10:57 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

22:11:18 <liam> Rick: So the PF WG is going to work on processes for the registry.

Scribe problem: the name 'Rick' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Rick: So the PF WG is going to work on processes for the registry.

22:11:42 <liam> Martus: There might be a dpub chapter vs. an svg chapter definition

Scribe problem: the name 'Martus' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Martus: There might be a dpub chapter vs. an svg chapter definition

22:11:56 <liam> [others: this is why we need a gatekeeper ]

[others: this is why we need a gatekeeper ]

22:12:20 <ShaneM> q?

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: q?

22:12:35 <liam> Bill: are there prefixes in this context?

Bill Kasdorf: are there prefixes in this context?

22:13:47 <liam> [discussion of why prefixes/namespaces are too annoying]

[discussion of why prefixes/namespaces are too annoying]

22:14:31 <dkaplan3> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+

22:15:10 <dkaplan3> q-

Deborah Kaplan: q-

22:16:07 <liam> Mark: we'd participate to align.

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Mark: we'd participate to align.

22:16:47 <liam> tzviya: we'd do this in the joint dpub pf tf.

Tzviya Siegman: we'd do this in the joint dpub pf tf.

22:16:57 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

22:17:15 <liam> debora: i'll help

Deborah Kaplan: i'll help

22:17:24 <liam> s/debora/Deborah/
22:17:36 <liam> Rich: who will lead that tf?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: who will lead that tf?

22:17:45 <liam> Markus: I've been fishing for some people

Markus Gylling: I've been fishing for some people

22:18:08 <liam> Janina: we don't have to decide this today. We do have the W3C infrastructure to use.

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Janina: we don't have to decide this today. We do have the W3C infrastructure to use.

22:18:16 <liam> Markus: tzviya or i will lead if necessary, we can't wait any longer.

Markus Gylling: tzviya or i will lead if necessary, we can't wait any longer.

22:18:30 <liam> Janina: get people signed up.

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Janina: get people signed up.

22:19:18 <liam> Ivan: can be done on mailing list

Ivan Herman: can be done on mailing list

22:19:33 <liam> Janina: we're not going to get any kickback from dong this

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Janina: we're not going to get any kickback from dong this

22:20:12 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

22:21:11 <liam> Shane: thing to say @ HTML is we really like the precedent you set with the rel attribute!

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: thing to say @ HTML is we really like the precedent you set with the rel attribute!

22:21:50 <liam> tzviya: Markus, Charles, Tzviya, Mark, Deborah will be in the TF initially

Tzviya Siegman: Markus, Charles, Tzviya, Mark, Deborah will be in the TF initially

22:23:37 <liam> Rich: we're looking at epub books at IBM. Is there anything you'd like to see adopted when people write books; you might want to have test tools,

Richard Schwerdtfeger: we're looking at epub books at IBM. Is there anything you'd like to see adopted when people write books; you might want to have test tools,

22:23:50 <liam> ... I should see the following semantics in a book.

... I should see the following semantics in a book.

22:24:28 <tzviya> ACTION: tzviya and company to review EPUB 3 SSV and pare down list for submission to PF

ACTION: tzviya and company to review EPUB 3 SSV and pare down list for submission to PF

22:24:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-32 - And company to review epub 3 ssv and pare down list for submission to pf [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-06].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-32 - And company to review epub 3 ssv and pare down list for submission to pf [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-06].

22:25:21 <liam> Rich: We (IBM) store all our docs in DITA format, so we'll need [validation]

Richard Schwerdtfeger: We (IBM) store all our docs in DITA format, so we'll need [validation]

22:25:51 <tzviya> ACTION ivan help create OWL for list of terms created by TF

Tzviya Siegman: ACTION ivan help create OWL for list of terms created by TF

22:25:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-33 - Help create owl for list of terms created by tf [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-11-06].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-33 - Help create owl for list of terms created by tf [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-11-06].

22:26:01 <liam> Janina: all these definitions we're going to, don't think you want to restrict them to AT, you can take advantage of them in general.

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Janina: all these definitions we're going to, don't think you want to restrict them to AT, you can take advantage of them in general.

22:26:13 <liam> Ivan: they may already be used e.g. for educational books for reacting on educational level.

Ivan Herman: they may already be used e.g. for educational books for reacting on educational level.

22:26:44 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

22:26:56 <liam> Janina: some resistance about ARIA is that it only helps people using AT, but there's nothing saying others can't use it.

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Janina: some resistance about ARIA is that it only helps people using AT, but there's nothing saying others can't use it.

22:27:39 <liam> s/martus/Charles/

s/martus/Charles/ (warning: replacement failed)

22:28:07 <ivan_> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

22:28:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan_

22:28:59 <liam> [break, joint part of the meeting adjourned]

[break, joint part of the meeting adjourned]

23:08:31 <ivan_> scribenick: bjdmeest

(No events recorded for 39 minutes)

(Scribe set to Ben De Meester)

23:08:40 <bjdmeest> Topic: Bib recap

2. Bib recap

23:08:51 <bjdmeest> mgylling: at Bib, ivan and I had a talk

Markus Gylling: at Bib, ivan and I had a talk

23:08:51 <ivan_> Topic: Books in Browsers recap - EPUBWEB

3. Books in Browsers recap - EPUBWEB

23:09:12 <bjdmeest> ... which was a first public outing about standards and digital publishing

... which was a first public outing about standards and digital publishing

23:09:27 <bjdmeest> ... ivan and I are working on a (private) paper, still tweaking

... ivan and I are working on a (private) paper, still tweaking

23:09:42 <bjdmeest> ... this paper is a elongated version of the BiB talk

... this paper is a elongated version of the BiB talk

23:09:51 <bjdmeest> ... it is a vision about DPUB on OWP

... it is a vision about DPUB on OWP

23:10:09 <bjdmeest> ... the notion is: reduce distinction between publishing and consumption

... the notion is: reduce distinction between publishing and consumption

23:10:40 <bjdmeest> ... portable document (pdf, epub, etc) today is a second class citizen on the web, we want this to come to an end

... portable document (pdf, epub, etc) today is a second class citizen on the web, we want this to come to an end

23:10:50 <bjdmeest> ... should become first-=class citizens

... should become first-=class citizens

23:11:12 <bjdmeest> ... the paper [which is being projected] talks about this

... the paper [which is being projected] talks about this

23:11:45 <bjdmeest> ... seperation offline and online should become zero (i.e., a dynamic state)

... seperation offline and online should become zero (i.e., a dynamic state)

23:12:02 <bjdmeest> ... so you can choose which state to publish in

... so you can choose which state to publish in

23:12:20 <bjdmeest> ... user can choose how to consume

... user can choose how to consume

23:12:36 <bjdmeest> ... no compromise on feature set

... no compromise on feature set

23:13:12 <bjdmeest> ... (work items list follows)

... (work items list follows)

23:13:45 <bjdmeest> ... we're not talking about one big cache

... we're not talking about one big cache

23:13:52 <bjdmeest> ... (but it could be a partial state)

... (but it could be a partial state)

23:14:45 <bjdmeest> ... purposes: archiving, publishing in oppresive regime, US marines (selling complete offline ereaders)

... purposes: archiving, publishing in oppresive regime, US marines (selling complete offline ereaders)

23:15:14 <bjdmeest> ... not about caching, about web content in a package that doesn't need network

... not about caching, about web content in a package that doesn't need network

23:15:35 <bjdmeest> ... chapter 3 is about work areas

... chapter 3 is about work areas

23:15:48 <bjdmeest> ... a.o., generic archive format

... a.o., generic archive format

23:16:30 <bjdmeest> ... there is a deliverable about packaging happening atm

... there is a deliverable about packaging happening atm

23:16:49 <bjdmeest> ivan: difference of EPUB: based on multipart mime instead of zip

Ivan Herman: difference of EPUB: based on multipart mime instead of zip

23:16:56 <bjdmeest> brady: been there, done that

Brady Duga: been there, done that

23:17:27 <bjdmeest> ivan: there is a group working on that, we cannot reasonably expect a browser to implement multiple archiving formats, so we should talk about this now, before EPUB dies

Ivan Herman: there is a group working on that, we cannot reasonably expect a browser to implement multiple archiving formats, so we should talk about this now, before EPUB dies

23:18:09 <bjdmeest> brady: historically, there exists something like this, not adopted, as it was to complicated (multipart mime), however, as a standard, it is better (zip is a mess)

Brady Duga: historically, there exists something like this, not adopted, as it was to complicated (multipart mime), however, as a standard, it is better (zip is a mess)

23:20:01 <bjdmeest_> scribenick: bjdmeest
23:20:06 <bjdmeest_> scribenick: bjdmeest_
23:20:27 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: 1: archive format

Markus Gylling: 1: archive format

23:20:39 <bjdmeest_> 2: capture overall publication structure

Scribe problem: the name '2' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Karen Myers Edward O'Connor Vlad Stirbu Bill Kasdorf Graham Bell Nishit Jain Peter Krautzberger Erik Mannens Liam Quin George Walkley Jiphun Satapathy Don Brutzman Frank Liu Brady Duga Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Julie Morris Koji Ishii Peter Linss Richard Schwerdtfeger Tzviya Siegman Alan Stearns Mahesh Kulkarni Michael Miller Thierry Michel Somnath Chandra Manuel Rego Casasnovas Suzanne Taylor Zakim IRC Bot ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Charles LaPierre Doug Schepers Pierre Danet Robin Berjon Anton Leskovets Laura Fowler Jun Fujisawa Priyanka Malik Robert Sanderson Akshat Joshi Trackbot IRC Bot Timothy Cole Prashant Prashant Mohamed ZERGAOUI akiyoshi ibuki Sharad Garg Paolo Ciccarese Livio Mondini RRSAgent IRC Bot Tom Burns Ayla Stein Vincent Gros Daniel Schwabe Heather Reid Swaran Lata Markku Hakkinen David Singer Kenny Zhang Tom Habing Phil Madans Tyng-Ruey Chuang Liza Daly Madi Solomon Dmitry Shkolnik Miel Vander Sande Dave Cramer Frederick Hirsch Alan Tam Vladimir Levantovsky Shinyu Murakami Paul Belfanti Casey Dougherty Markus Gylling George Kerscher Ivan Herman Deborah Kaplan Luc Audrain Ben De Meester David Stroup Tim Clark Jirka Kosek Tom De Nies Naitik Tyagi Ben Ko Bert Bos . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown 2: capture overall publication structure

23:21:11 <bjdmeest_> 3: document and fragment identification (select specific document, specific part of a document

Scribe problem: the name '3' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Karen Myers Edward O'Connor Vlad Stirbu Bill Kasdorf Graham Bell Nishit Jain Peter Krautzberger Erik Mannens Liam Quin George Walkley Jiphun Satapathy Don Brutzman Frank Liu Brady Duga Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Julie Morris Koji Ishii Peter Linss Richard Schwerdtfeger Tzviya Siegman Alan Stearns Mahesh Kulkarni Michael Miller Thierry Michel Somnath Chandra Manuel Rego Casasnovas Suzanne Taylor Zakim IRC Bot ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Charles LaPierre Doug Schepers Pierre Danet Robin Berjon Anton Leskovets Laura Fowler Jun Fujisawa Priyanka Malik Robert Sanderson Akshat Joshi Trackbot IRC Bot Timothy Cole Prashant Prashant Mohamed ZERGAOUI akiyoshi ibuki Sharad Garg Paolo Ciccarese Livio Mondini RRSAgent IRC Bot Tom Burns Ayla Stein Vincent Gros Daniel Schwabe Heather Reid Swaran Lata Markku Hakkinen David Singer Kenny Zhang Tom Habing Phil Madans Tyng-Ruey Chuang Liza Daly Madi Solomon Dmitry Shkolnik Miel Vander Sande Dave Cramer Frederick Hirsch Alan Tam Vladimir Levantovsky Shinyu Murakami Paul Belfanti Casey Dougherty Markus Gylling George Kerscher Ivan Herman Deborah Kaplan Luc Audrain Ben De Meester David Stroup Tim Clark Jirka Kosek Tom De Nies Naitik Tyagi Ben Ko Bert Bos . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown 3: document and fragment identification (select specific document, specific part of a document

23:21:27 <bjdmeest_> ivan: final solution might not come from IDPF of W3C

Ivan Herman: final solution might not come from IDPF of W3C

23:21:49 <bjdmeest_> ... i.e., what is the URL of a book, involves many many partners

... i.e., what is the URL of a book, involves many many partners

23:22:01 <bjdmeest_> ...W3C and/or IDPF might not be solaly ideal

...W3C and/or IDPF might not be solaly ideal

23:22:18 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: 4: metadata for discovery

Markus Gylling: 4: metadata for discovery

23:22:25 <bjdmeest_> ...harmonize metadata expressions

...harmonize metadata expressions

23:22:43 <bjdmeest_> ... inkling is doing stuff about RDFa and discoverability

... inkling is doing stuff about RDFa and discoverability

23:23:05 <bjdmeest_> ... having a specific format, is completely out of question, needs to be (plain) HTML

... having a specific format, is completely out of question, needs to be (plain) HTML

23:23:15 <bjdmeest_> ... 5: pagination

... 5: pagination

23:23:45 <bjdmeest_> ... is a dealbreaker if it doesn't exist (for some parts of the publishing community)

... is a dealbreaker if it doesn't exist (for some parts of the publishing community)

23:24:01 <bjdmeest_> 6: security: origin is often unspecified

Scribe problem: the name '6' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Karen Myers Edward O'Connor Vlad Stirbu Bill Kasdorf Graham Bell Nishit Jain Peter Krautzberger Erik Mannens Liam Quin George Walkley Jiphun Satapathy Don Brutzman Frank Liu Brady Duga Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Julie Morris Koji Ishii Peter Linss Richard Schwerdtfeger Tzviya Siegman Alan Stearns Mahesh Kulkarni Michael Miller Thierry Michel Somnath Chandra Manuel Rego Casasnovas Suzanne Taylor Zakim IRC Bot ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Charles LaPierre Doug Schepers Pierre Danet Robin Berjon Anton Leskovets Laura Fowler Jun Fujisawa Priyanka Malik Robert Sanderson Akshat Joshi Trackbot IRC Bot Timothy Cole Prashant Prashant Mohamed ZERGAOUI akiyoshi ibuki Sharad Garg Paolo Ciccarese Livio Mondini RRSAgent IRC Bot Tom Burns Ayla Stein Vincent Gros Daniel Schwabe Heather Reid Swaran Lata Markku Hakkinen David Singer Kenny Zhang Tom Habing Phil Madans Tyng-Ruey Chuang Liza Daly Madi Solomon Dmitry Shkolnik Miel Vander Sande Dave Cramer Frederick Hirsch Alan Tam Vladimir Levantovsky Shinyu Murakami Paul Belfanti Casey Dougherty Markus Gylling George Kerscher Ivan Herman Deborah Kaplan Luc Audrain Ben De Meester David Stroup Tim Clark Jirka Kosek Tom De Nies Naitik Tyagi Ben Ko Bert Bos . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown 6: security: origin is often unspecified

23:24:17 <bjdmeest_> brady: for a local file, origin is a little strange

Brady Duga: for a local file, origin is a little strange

23:24:35 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q?

23:24:37 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: 7: presentation: users that can change the presentation is important

Markus Gylling: 7: presentation: users that can change the presentation is important

23:24:54 <bjdmeest_> ... epub is not ideal for this, very difficult for HTML and CSS

... epub is not ideal for this, very difficult for HTML and CSS

23:25:15 <bjdmeest_> ... 8: models for specific restrictions and extensions

... 8: models for specific restrictions and extensions

23:25:41 <bjdmeest_> ... there is a need to restrain how documents are structured (i.e., comics, extreme amount of restrictions)

... there is a need to restrain how documents are structured (i.e., comics, extreme amount of restrictions)

23:25:52 <bjdmeest_> (btw, this list is not exhaustive)

(btw, this list is not exhaustive)

23:26:13 <bjdmeest_> ... we see this with EDUPUB in epub

... we see this with EDUPUB in epub

23:26:19 <bjdmeest_> ... that are the 8 work items

... that are the 8 work items

23:26:31 <bjdmeest_> ... should be a living document

... should be a living document

23:26:32 <TimCole> q+

Timothy Cole: q+

23:27:03 <bjdmeest_> ... idea: publish this paper, get input from diverse audience

... idea: publish this paper, get input from diverse audience

23:27:15 <bjdmeest_> ... there are massive sectors that aren't here now

... there are massive sectors that aren't here now

23:27:34 <bjdmeest_> ... could have wide repercussions

... could have wide repercussions

23:28:08 <bjdmeest_> ivan: enhanced publisher: IBM going to EPUB is an example of this of advantage of offline and online

Ivan Herman: enhanced publisher: IBM going to EPUB is an example of this of advantage of offline and online

23:28:41 <bjdmeest_> ... partners are e.g. IBM, they have massive problems

... partners are e.g. IBM, they have massive problems

23:29:04 <tzviya> ack TimCole

Tzviya Siegman: ack TimCole

23:29:07 <bjdmeest_> ???: people are using DILAN?? now (oracle, ...

Michael Miller: people are using DITA?? now (oracle, ...

23:29:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Bill Kasdorf: q+

23:29:31 <tzviya> s/DILAN/DITA
23:29:31 <bjdmeest_> TimCole: worried about consistency, not features?

Timothy Cole: worried about consistency, not features?

23:30:11 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: yes, minimal required, what you put in there, may vary a lot

Markus Gylling: yes, minimal required, what you put in there, may vary a lot

23:30:24 <bjdmeest_> TimCole: there is a value in having a base, even if you don't use all

Timothy Cole: there is a value in having a base, even if you don't use all

23:30:36 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: yes, rudimentary stuff

Markus Gylling: yes, rudimentary stuff

23:30:45 <murakami_> s/???/AH_Miller/
23:30:56 <bjdmeest_> AH_Miller: where would you put government?

Michael Miller: where would you put government?

23:31:19 <bjdmeest_> ivan: inhouse publisher includes FAO, they have a lot of publications

Ivan Herman: inhouse publisher includes FAO, they have a lot of publications

23:31:35 <bjdmeest_> ... they might advantage of this

... they might advantage of this

23:31:57 <bjdmeest_> Bill_kasdorf: ??? just joined, they have a lot of publications, in a lot of languages

Bill Kasdorf: the EU just joined, they have a lot of publications, in a lot of languages

23:31:59 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf

Tzviya Siegman: ack Bill_Kasdorf

23:32:15 <tzviya> s/???/the EU
23:32:32 <bjdmeest_> ... it is really important that an offline publication is static, unless it's online

... it is really important that an offline publication is static, unless it's online

23:32:37 <bjdmeest_> ... the content is fixed

... the content is fixed

23:32:43 <bjdmeest_> ... a website is fundamentally not

... a website is fundamentally not

23:33:11 <bjdmeest_> ivan: i can imagine that there a websites that do not fit in this scheme (e.g., gmail)

Ivan Herman: i can imagine that there a websites that do not fit in this scheme (e.g., gmail)

23:33:27 <clapierre> q+

Charles LaPierre: q+

23:33:39 <tzviya> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+

23:33:59 <bjdmeest_> ... website authors might want to flag non-archivable content

... website authors might want to flag non-archivable content

23:34:00 <fettes> q+

Scribe problem: the name 'fettes' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'fettes' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown fettes: q+

23:34:50 <bjdmeest_> ???: merging contexts: solve the tailoring for distribution ways?

Rob Cromwell: merging contexts: solve the tailoring for distribution ways?

23:34:57 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: yes, part of the problem

Markus Gylling: yes, part of the problem

23:35:18 <bjdmeest_> ... the overall vision: publishers use OWP directly, no second-class citizenship

... the overall vision: publishers use OWP directly, no second-class citizenship

23:35:50 <bjdmeest_> ... we try to hit the points that we need to fix in OWP to let publishing become a first-class citizen

... we try to hit the points that we need to fix in OWP to let publishing become a first-class citizen

23:36:20 <bjdmeest_> ... so we need an archiving format, online or offline is chosen by the user

... so we need an archiving format, online or offline is chosen by the user

23:36:23 <TimCole> q+

Timothy Cole: q+

23:36:26 <tzviya> s/???/Rob Cromwell
23:36:33 <tzviya> q-

Tzviya Siegman: q-

23:36:49 <bjdmeest_> \me thanks tziya!

\me thanks tziya!

23:37:28 <bjdmeest_> ivan: currently online publications cannot be easily viewed offline

Ivan Herman: currently online publications cannot be easily viewed offline

23:37:41 <bjdmeest_> ... e.g., view html, download pdf, no way back to html

... e.g., view html, download pdf, no way back to html

23:37:56 <bjdmeest_> ... so, unified way, circle, could be easier

... so, unified way, circle, could be easier

23:38:08 <bjdmeest_> ... same for archiving (how to archive major websites?)

... same for archiving (how to archive major websites?)

23:38:15 <bjdmeest_> ... epub could be used for archiving

... epub could be used for archiving

23:38:51 <bjdmeest_> tzviya: some stuff is published in one channel

Tzviya Siegman: some stuff is published in one channel

23:39:23 <bjdmeest_> ... epub publications: word to XML to HTML5 (with prefix tagging) to PDF

... epub publications: word to XML to HTML5 (with prefix tagging) to PDF

23:39:35 <bjdmeest_> ... in reprint cycle, all files need to be corrected

... in reprint cycle, all files need to be corrected

23:39:44 <bjdmeest_> ... proper citation is a problem (page number?)

... proper citation is a problem (page number?)

23:40:24 <bjdmeest_> Rob Cromwell: so, there is a workflow, in this new world, you only have one master?

Rob Cromwell: so, there is a workflow, in this new world, you only have one master?

23:40:43 <bjdmeest_> tzviya: well, we will still need to print books, but there could be a citation system

Tzviya Siegman: well, we will still need to print books, but there could be a citation system

23:40:54 <bjdmeest_> ... atm, that does not exist

... atm, that does not exist

23:41:19 <bjdmeest_> ... a correction mechanism can be easier (one source)

... a correction mechanism can be easier (one source)

23:41:20 <dkaplan3>  q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+

23:41:41 <bjdmeest_> ... there are a lot of things to do, (e.g., html to print), but it could be solved by this

... there are a lot of things to do, (e.g., html to print), but it could be solved by this

23:41:59 <tzviya> ack clapierre

Tzviya Siegman: ack clapierre

23:42:16 <bjdmeest_> clapierre: is this a new standard, to converge to?

Charles LaPierre: is this a new standard, to converge to?

23:42:33 <bjdmeest_> ... who would get these tools to convert current standards?

... who would get these tools to convert current standards?

23:42:50 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: that cannot be answered now, we want to publish this white paper, toget feedback

Markus Gylling: that cannot be answered now, we want to publish this white paper, toget feedback

23:42:57 <bjdmeest_> ... to kick off a real effort

... to kick off a real effort

23:43:08 <bjdmeest_> .. atm, just discussion, no timeline, no agreement to start working on this

.. atm, just discussion, no timeline, no agreement to start working on this

23:43:54 <bjdmeest_> ... atm, we don't know, depending on the threshold of the feature-list of necessary features, it will take time

... atm, we don't know, depending on the threshold of the feature-list of necessary features, it will take time

23:44:00 <bjdmeest_> ... multi-year effort

... multi-year effort

23:44:24 <bjdmeest_> ivan: we hope that we can finalize the document in november, and get it public

Ivan Herman: we hope that we can finalize the document in november, and get it public

23:44:41 <bjdmeest_> ... then, a long cycle, with a lot of internal and external comments

... then, a long cycle, with a lot of internal and external comments

23:44:49 <bjdmeest_> ... also, what can be done?

... also, what can be done?

23:44:56 <bjdmeest_> ... (technically)

... (technically)

23:45:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Bill Kasdorf: q+

23:45:17 <bjdmeest_> ... hopefully: at the end of winter, we have a better idea of the specific types of work of what needs to be done

... hopefully: at the end of winter, we have a better idea of the specific types of work of what needs to be done

23:45:42 <bjdmeest_> ... we may find some areas where there is existing work about e.g., archiving, where we need to participate

... we may find some areas where there is existing work about e.g., archiving, where we need to participate

23:45:51 <bjdmeest_> ... other areas, we might need a specific group

... other areas, we might need a specific group

23:45:57 <bjdmeest_> ... all conditional on the feedback

... all conditional on the feedback

23:46:09 <bjdmeest_> ... sort of a very vague timeline

... sort of a very vague timeline

23:46:16 <tzviya> ack fettes

Tzviya Siegman: ack fettes

23:46:41 <bjdmeest_> fettes: seems: archive of a very discrete resource?

Scribe problem: the name 'fettes' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown fettes: seems: archive of a very discrete resource?

23:46:55 <bjdmeest_> ... else, you are fragmenting the web

... else, you are fragmenting the web

23:47:36 <bjdmeest_> ... most websites are living, eg NY times, annotating, notes are gone immediatly

... most websites are living, eg NY times, annotating, notes are gone immediatly

23:47:50 <bjdmeest_> ... can be usefull for more static resources

... can be usefull for more static resources

23:47:59 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: agreed

Markus Gylling: agreed

23:48:19 <bjdmeest_> ... generic does not mean: archive the web, it means: archive dig publications

... generic does not mean: archive the web, it means: archive dig publications

23:48:34 <bjdmeest_> ... would not be for front page of NY times

... would not be for front page of NY times

23:48:55 <bjdmeest_> ivan: other direction is: currently, cannot directly read an EPUB

Ivan Herman: other direction is: currently, cannot directly read an EPUB

23:49:20 <bjdmeest_> ... I should be able to do that automatically, without plugins, as if it was a web page

... I should be able to do that automatically, without plugins, as if it was a web page

23:49:28 <bjdmeest_> ... I should be able to adapt it

... I should be able to adapt it

23:49:41 <bjdmeest_> ... I should be able to display it with pagination on

... I should be able to display it with pagination on

23:50:03 <bjdmeest_> ... web page is not a separate world from EPUB for digital publications

... web page is not a separate world from EPUB for digital publications

23:50:38 <bjdmeest_> fettes:  you might want pagination depending on e.g. viewport, landscape vs portrait

Scribe problem: the name 'fettes' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown fettes: you might want pagination depending on e.g. viewport, landscape vs portrait

23:50:58 <bjdmeest_> ivan: keep user control, there might be default setup

Ivan Herman: keep user control, there might be default setup

23:51:03 <tzviya> ack TimCole

Tzviya Siegman: ack TimCole

23:51:23 <bjdmeest_> TimCole: we might need better terminology than archive and offline

Timothy Cole: we might need better terminology than archive and offline

23:51:31 <bjdmeest_> ... detached vs attached

... detached vs attached

23:51:45 <bjdmeest_> ... detached from publisher, but online

... detached from publisher, but online

23:52:14 <bjdmeest_> ... I may annotate partly online, partly offline

... I may annotate partly online, partly offline

23:52:37 <bjdmeest_> ... NY Times: annotations to yesterday front page should not disappear

... NY Times: annotations to yesterday front page should not disappear

23:52:49 <bjdmeest_> ... maybe using archived webpage

... maybe using archived webpage

23:53:26 <tzviya> ack dkaplan

Tzviya Siegman: ack dkaplan

23:53:27 <bjdmeest_> ... it is about packaging, so I can do something with it (online, you can follow links, etc)

... it is about packaging, so I can do something with it (online, you can follow links, etc)

23:54:14 <bjdmeest_> deborah: concerning citation: there is no such thing as a fully static document, everything has versioning

Deborah Kaplan: concerning citation: there is no such thing as a fully static document, everything has versioning

23:54:30 <bjdmeest_> ... citations in paper world is very specific way of coping with it

... citations in paper world is very specific way of coping with it

23:54:43 <bjdmeest_> ... would this view have some kind of inherent versioning?

... would this view have some kind of inherent versioning?

23:54:54 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: yes, epub has that inherently in metadata

Markus Gylling: yes, epub has that inherently in metadata

23:55:10 <bjdmeest_> ... so, very rudimentary metadata, and maybe extra versioning

... so, very rudimentary metadata, and maybe extra versioning

23:55:41 <bjdmeest_> ivan: another possiblity: best practice is that there are 2 ids: ID for document, ID for version

Ivan Herman: another possiblity: best practice is that there are 2 ids: ID for document, ID for version

23:55:50 <bjdmeest_> ... also done with w3c docs

... also done with w3c docs

23:56:15 <bjdmeest_> ... another approach: the memento protocol

... another approach: the memento protocol

23:56:27 <bjdmeest_> ... URI identifies time in the life of that document

... URI identifies time in the life of that document

23:56:38 <bjdmeest_> ... specs exist

... specs exist

23:56:51 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: it is a solvable problem

Markus Gylling: it is a solvable problem

23:56:54 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf

Tzviya Siegman: ack Bill_Kasdorf

23:57:04 <bjdmeest_> Bill_Kasdorf: we are already down this path

Bill Kasdorf: we are already down this path

23:57:20 <bjdmeest_> ... from day one with EPUB3, there is a commitment with staying inline with HTML5

... from day one with EPUB3, there is a commitment with staying inline with HTML5

23:57:28 <bjdmeest_> ... EDUPUB as well

... EDUPUB as well

23:57:37 <tzviya> ack liam

Tzviya Siegman: ack liam

23:57:37 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to note that there's no reason in principle not to be annotate a back-issue/frozen issue of NYT

Zakim IRC Bot: liam, you wanted to note that there's no reason in principle not to be annotate a back-issue/frozen issue of NYT

23:57:41 <bjdmeest_> ... this can be viewed as the long term vision of this kind of stuff

... this can be viewed as the long term vision of this kind of stuff

23:58:10 <bjdmeest_> liam: W3C can change the web going forward

Liam Quin: W3C can change the web going forward

23:58:27 <bjdmeest_> ... so we can do annotations to NY Times 3 weeks ago

... so we can do annotations to NY Times 3 weeks ago

23:58:50 <bjdmeest_> ... eg using redirects (same for ebooks), here is the archived version

... eg using redirects (same for ebooks), here is the archived version

23:59:15 <bjdmeest_> deborah: you can make a comment on a line, and historic comments are available on lines that no longer exist

Deborah Kaplan: you can make a comment on a line, and historic comments are available on lines that no longer exist

23:59:48 <bjdmeest_> ivan: issues: for publishers to move from EPUB3 to EPUBX is a challenge

Ivan Herman: issues: for publishers to move from EPUB3 to EPUBX is a challenge

00:00:12 <bjdmeest_> ... in fact, move from 2 to 3 has required a very big step, by keeping in line with HTML5

... in fact, move from 2 to 3 has required a very big step, by keeping in line with HTML5

00:00:21 <bjdmeest_> ... so that step has been done

... so that step has been done

00:00:46 <bjdmeest_> ... whether it is zipped or multipart mime, doesn't really matter

... whether it is zipped or multipart mime, doesn't really matter

00:00:55 <bjdmeest_> ... [we're over the hump]

... [we're over the hump]

00:01:15 <bjdmeest_> Bill_Kasdorf: this [scheme] will make things easier

Bill Kasdorf: this [scheme] will make things easier

00:01:51 <bjdmeest_> ivan: for now, DPUBIG is the most sounding board to move on

Ivan Herman: for now, DPUBIG is the most sounding board to move on

00:01:58 <bjdmeest_> ... we need a wide reach out

... we need a wide reach out

00:02:35 <bjdmeest_> ... so updates on this document will flow back often to DPUBIG

... so updates on this document will flow back often to DPUBIG

00:03:29 <bjdmeest_> TimCole: perception is that HTML5 is insufficient, not all things are possible (eg, math)

Timothy Cole: perception is that HTML5 is insufficient, not all things are possible (eg, math)

00:03:48 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: eg unable to handle STEM

Markus Gylling: eg unable to handle STEM

00:04:30 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: we should add an extra bullet point to render STEM (basic and advanced)

Markus Gylling: we should add an extra bullet point to render STEM (basic and advanced)

00:05:43 <bjdmeest_> iBooks: ordering of the content (stream read): if you want to be able to read things before downloading everything, is important (when you the zip-path)

Scribe problem: the name 'iBooks' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown iBooks: ordering of the content (stream read): if you want to be able to read things before downloading everything, is important (when you the zip-path)

00:06:05 <bjdmeest_> ivan: reason for multipart-mime is exactly for streaming content

Ivan Herman: reason for multipart-mime is exactly for streaming content

00:06:40 <bjdmeest_> brady: I'll give you the old spec, a lot of work has been proposed

Brady Duga: I'll give you the old spec, a lot of work has been proposed

00:06:53 <bjdmeest_> ivan: do that!

Ivan Herman: do that!

00:07:47 <bjdmeest_> ivan: publishing industry should be part of the move, _now_

Ivan Herman: publishing industry should be part of the move, _now_

00:08:24 <astearns> +1

Alan Stearns: +1

00:08:27 <bjdmeest_> liam: [something about TAG, XCite?] could do random acces with stream content

Liam Quin: [something about TAG, XCite?] could do random acces with stream content

00:08:45 <bjdmeest_> ... it is not a done deal, but technical solutions are possible

... it is not a done deal, other technical solutions are possible

00:09:05 <liam> s/Xcite/EXI (efficient XML interchange format)

Liam Quin: s/Xcite/EXI (efficient XML interchange format) (warning: replacement failed)

00:09:12 <liam> s/Xcite/EXI (efficient XML interchange format)/

Liam Quin: s/Xcite/EXI (efficient XML interchange format)/ (warning: replacement failed)

00:09:30 <liam> s/deal, but/deal, other/
00:09:38 <bjdmeest_> ???: if I want to store a PhD, i need digital signature

???: if I want to store a PhD, i need digital signature

00:09:55 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: EPUB allows that, but it is certainly a use case

Markus Gylling: EPUB allows that, but it is certainly a use case

00:10:18 <bjdmeest_> ... eg use case for governments: they can make sure it is static

... eg use case for governments: they can make sure it is static

00:10:50 <bjdmeest_> TimCole: some publishers timestamp and IPaddress stamp publications, to get provenance

Timothy Cole: some publishers timestamp and IPaddress stamp publications, to get provenance

00:11:05 <bjdmeest_> tzviya: we call that social bookmarking

Tzviya Siegman: we call that social watermarking

00:11:11 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: we are not talk about DRM

Markus Gylling: we are not talk about DRM

00:11:42 <bjdmeest_> Bill_Kasdorf: refer to it as Rights Management, not Digital Rights Managment

Bill Kasdorf: refer to it as Rights Management, not Digital Rights Managment

00:12:10 <tzviya> s/bookmarking/watermarking
00:12:29 <bjdmeest_> Bill_Kasdorf: DRM has become access preventing, so let's not talk about it

Bill Kasdorf: DRM has become access preventing, so let's not talk about it

00:13:49 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: there is ongoing stuff, we need to act on that (eg CSS, webapps) for this archiving format to work

Markus Gylling: there is ongoing stuff, we need to act on that (eg CSS, webapps) for this archiving format to work

00:15:03 <bjdmeest_> ???: on discoverability, the context is not preserved, how is the metadata used for discoverability?

Scribe problem: the name 'takeshi' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown takeshi: on discoverability, the context is not preserved, how is the metadata used for discoverability?

00:15:20 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: packaging is just a state, publisher can provide unpackaged metadata

Markus Gylling: packaging is just a state, publisher can provide unpackaged metadata

00:15:32 <brady_duga> s/???/takeshi/
00:15:44 <bjdmeest_> ... packaging is just a state

... packaging is just a state

00:16:06 <bjdmeest_> iBooks: what would preclude a search engine to index this packaged format? they do this already for eg PDF

Scribe problem: the name 'iBooks' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown iBooks: what would preclude a search engine to index this packaged format? they do this already for eg PDF

00:16:33 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: it could be done by EPUB, but the zip archive needs to be searched, etc, ...

Markus Gylling: it could be done by EPUB, but the zip archive needs to be searched, etc, ...

00:16:48 <bjdmeest_> iBooks: same for PDF, Word, so it can happen

Scribe problem: the name 'iBooks' does not match any of the 84 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Ayla Stein Ben Ko Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown iBooks: same for PDF, Word, so it can happen

00:17:12 <bjdmeest_> TimCole: so looking online for an epub, a link could be used for you local copy of that publication

Timothy Cole: so looking online for an epub, a link could be used for you local copy of that publication

00:17:40 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: yes, a digital publication search could just be an HTTP request

Markus Gylling: yes, a digital publication search could just be an HTTP request

00:18:22 <bjdmeest_> ... digital publication of this paper is upcoming

... digital publication of this paper is upcoming

00:18:59 <bjdmeest_> ... slides of BiB are public

... slides of BiB are public

00:19:25 <ivan>  BiB Slides: http://www.w3.org/2014/Talks/1023-SF-IH/

Ivan Herman: BiB Slides: http://www.w3.org/2014/Talks/1023-SF-IH/

00:19:36 <bjdmeest_> ivan: video will also become online

Ivan Herman: video will also become online

00:19:57 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F#Friday_31st_of_October

Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F#Friday_31st_of_October

00:20:04 <bjdmeest_> topic: agenda tomorrow

4. agenda tomorrow

00:20:15 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: first, STEM update by Peter

Markus Gylling: first, STEM update by Peter

00:21:09 <bjdmeest_> mgylling: next, metadata session, will there be resolutions? (@Bill_Kasdorf)

Markus Gylling: next, metadata session, will there be resolutions? (@Bill_Kasdorf)

00:21:31 <bjdmeest_> Bill_Kasdorf: yes, we will see which things to focus on

Bill Kasdorf: yes, we will see which things to focus on

00:21:38 <bjdmeest_> ... three directions

... three directions

00:21:53 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

00:21:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan

00:23:36 <bjdmeest_> updates are in the wiki

updates are in the wiki

00:24:27 <bjdmeest_> Anne Bessalli: there is a tool Talky.io, to use a webcam (using web RTC) to 'skype in'

Ann Basetti: there is a tool Talky.io, to use a webcam (using web RTC) to 'skype in'

00:25:54 <bjdmeest_> ... also, there are talks about Schema.org, Danbri is a good contact for this, as well as ???, and James Snell

... also, there are talks about Schema.org, Danbri is a good contact for this, as well as ???, and James Snell

00:26:13 <Karen> s/Anne Bessalli/Ann Basetti
00:26:45 <ivan> ADJURNED

Ivan Herman: ADJURNED

00:26:57 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

00:26:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-minutes.html ivan

00:27:05 <ivan> rrsagent, bye

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, bye

00:27:05 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-actions.rdf :

00:27:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dave to add new section to Latin req that describes spread behaviors [1]

ACTION: Dave to add new section to Latin req that describes spread behaviors [1]

00:27:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T17-42-09

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T17-42-09

00:27:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cover bleeds [2]

ACTION: Cover bleeds [2]

00:27:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T17-48-28

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T17-48-28

00:27:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Brady to start authoring page req doc with assistance from Markus and Liam [3]

ACTION: Brady to start authoring page req doc with assistance from Markus and Liam [3]

00:27:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T17-54-44

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T17-54-44

00:27:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Tzviya to provide PDF examples of paginated content that cannot be done online [4]

ACTION: Tzviya to provide PDF examples of paginated content that cannot be done online [4]

00:27:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T18-01-10

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T18-01-10

00:27:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Karen to initiate bus use case [5]

ACTION: Karen to initiate bus use case [5]

00:27:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T18-01-45

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T18-01-45

00:27:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM to create a registry for ARIA roles in HTML 5 [6]

ACTION: ShaneM to create a registry for ARIA roles in HTML 5 [6]

00:27:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T22-08-31

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T22-08-31

00:27:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tzviya and company to review EPUB 3 SSV and pare down list for submission to PF [7]

ACTION: tzviya and company to review EPUB 3 SSV and pare down list for submission to PF [7]

00:27:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T22-24-28

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-dpub-irc#T22-24-28

00:27:20 <ivan> zakim, drop seattle

Ivan Herman: zakim, drop seattle

00:27:20 <Zakim> Seattle is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: Seattle is being disconnected

00:27:22 <Zakim> DPUB_IG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_IG()11:00AM has ended

00:27:22 <Zakim> Attendees were Seattle

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Seattle

00:27:24 <ivan> zakim, bye

Ivan Herman: zakim, bye



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