None.
14:29:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-dpub-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-dpub-irc ←
14:29:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
14:29:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be dpub ←
14:29:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes ←
14:29:54 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:29:54 <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2014
14:31:02 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting agenda for 2014-06-30: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jun/0059.html
Ivan Herman: ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting agenda for 2014-06-30: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jun/0059.html ←
14:31:10 <ivan> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jun/0059.html
14:31:14 <ivan> Chair: Markus
14:57:22 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 26 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started ←
14:57:29 <Zakim> + +1.240.421.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.240.421.aaaa ←
14:58:07 <mgylling> zakim, code?
Markus Gylling: zakim, code? ←
14:58:07 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mgylling
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mgylling ←
14:58:19 <Zakim> + +1.650.644.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.644.aabb ←
14:58:23 <Zakim> +??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7 ←
14:58:36 <mgylling> zakim, ??P7 is me
Markus Gylling: zakim, ??P7 is me ←
14:58:36 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mgylling; got it ←
14:58:41 <clapierre1> Zakium 1.650.644 is me
Charles LaPierre: Zakium 1.650.644 is me ←
14:58:46 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-aix
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-aix ←
14:58:46 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
14:58:48 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
14:59:11 <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.917.207.aacc ←
14:59:17 <dauwhe> Zakim, aacc is me
Dave Cramer: Zakim, aacc is me ←
14:59:17 <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dauwhe; got it ←
14:59:29 <ivan> zakim, 1.650.644 is clapierre1
Ivan Herman: zakim, 1.650.644 is clapierre1 ←
14:59:29 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.644'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.644' ←
14:59:48 <Zakim> + +1.212.364.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.212.364.aadd ←
15:00:00 <philm> Zakim, aadd is me.
Phil Madans: Zakim, aadd is me. ←
15:00:00 <Zakim> +philm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +philm; got it ←
15:00:17 <philm> Hi, Dave
Phil Madans: Hi, Dave ←
15:00:18 <clapierre1> Zakium aabb is me
Charles LaPierre: Zakium aabb is me ←
15:00:22 <Zakim> +Liam
Zakim IRC Bot: +Liam ←
15:00:26 <ivan> zakim, aabb us clapierre1
Ivan Herman: zakim, aabb us clapierre1 ←
15:00:26 <ivan> zakim, aabb is clapierre1
Ivan Herman: zakim, aabb is clapierre1 ←
15:00:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aabb us clapierre1', ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'aabb us clapierre1', ivan ←
15:00:27 <Zakim> +clapierre1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +clapierre1; got it ←
15:00:50 <Zakim> + +1.617.439.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.439.aaee ←
15:01:10 <mgylling> zakim, who is typing?
Markus Gylling: zakim, who is typing? ←
15:01:10 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mgylling.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, mgylling. ←
15:01:22 <Zakim> +duga
Zakim IRC Bot: +duga ←
15:01:26 <Zakim> + +1.617.439.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.439.aaff ←
15:01:28 <ivan> zakim, aaee is dkaplan3
Ivan Herman: zakim, aaee is dkaplan3 ←
15:01:29 <Zakim> +dkaplan3; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dkaplan3; got it ←
15:01:38 <Zakim> +Vlad
Zakim IRC Bot: +Vlad ←
15:01:47 <Zakim> + +1.217.244.aagg
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.217.244.aagg ←
15:01:49 <Zakim> + +1.617.858.aahh
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.858.aahh ←
15:01:54 <Zakim> + +1.734.904.aaii
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.734.904.aaii ←
15:01:55 <ivan> zakim, aaff is liza
Ivan Herman: zakim, aaff is liza ←
15:01:55 <Zakim> + +1.718.701.aajj
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.718.701.aajj ←
15:01:55 <Zakim> +liza; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +liza; got it ←
15:02:18 <ivan> zakim, aagg is TimCole
Ivan Herman: zakim, aagg is TimCole ←
15:02:18 <Zakim> +TimCole; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +TimCole; got it ←
15:02:19 <Zakim> + +1.201.236.aakk
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.201.236.aakk ←
15:02:24 <pkra> pkra is +1.617.858.aahh
Peter Krautzberger: pkra is +1.617.858.aahh ←
15:02:41 <Zakim> + +1.646.336.aall
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.646.336.aall ←
15:02:43 <ivan> zakim, aahh is pkra
Ivan Herman: zakim, aahh is pkra ←
15:02:43 <Zakim> +pkra; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra; got it ←
15:03:02 <ivan> zakim, aaii is Bill_Kasdorf
Ivan Herman: zakim, aaii is Bill_Kasdorf ←
15:03:02 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Bill_Kasdorf; got it ←
15:03:36 <ivan> zakim, aajj is LauraD
Ivan Herman: zakim, aajj is LauraD ←
15:03:36 <Zakim> +LauraD; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LauraD; got it ←
15:03:51 <ivan> zakim, aakk is pbelfanti
Ivan Herman: zakim, aakk is pbelfanti ←
15:03:51 <Zakim> +pbelfanti; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pbelfanti; got it ←
15:04:06 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
15:04:17 <tmichel> zakim, ??P4 is me
Thierry Michel: zakim, ??P4 is me ←
15:04:17 <Zakim> +tmichel; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tmichel; got it ←
15:04:20 <ivan> zakim, aall is Julie_Morris
Ivan Herman: zakim, aall is Julie_Morris ←
15:04:20 <Zakim> +Julie_Morris; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Julie_Morris; got it ←
15:04:24 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
Zakim IRC Bot: +Karen_Myers ←
15:05:30 <fjh> zakim, code?
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, code? ←
15:05:30 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh ←
15:05:37 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
(Scribe set to Dave Cramer)
15:05:42 <Zakim> +Frederick_Hirsch
Zakim IRC Bot: +Frederick_Hirsch ←
15:05:44 <clapierre1> q+
Charles LaPierre: q+ ←
15:05:51 <dauwhe> mgylling: objections to approving minutes?
Markus Gylling: objections to approving minutes? ←
15:05:54 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
Frederick Hirsch: Present+ Frederick_Hirsch ←
15:05:58 <mgylling> ack cla
Markus Gylling: ack cla ←
15:06:20 <dauwhe> clapierre: my name was mispelled in minutes
Charles LaPierre: my name was mshouldbepelled in minutes ←
15:06:22 <mgylling> ack clap
Markus Gylling: ack clap ←
15:06:45 <mgylling> s/is/shouldbe/
15:06:53 <dauwhe> mgylling: one can edit minutes directly in IRC
Markus Gylling: one can edit minutes directly in IRC ←
15:07:09 <dauwhe> Ivan: one word or two?
Ivan Herman: one word or two? ←
15:07:15 <dauwhe> clapierre1: one
Charles LaPierre: one ←
15:07:23 <dauwhe> mgylling: Are minutes approved?
Markus Gylling: Are minutes approved? ←
15:07:27 <dauwhe> ... yes.
... yes. ←
15:07:38 <dauwhe> ... Topic: summer break
... Topic: summer break ←
15:07:42 <fjh> some editing tips here, http://www.w3.org/2008/xmlsec/Group/Scribe-Instructions.html (members only link)
Frederick Hirsch: some editing tips here, http://www.w3.org/2008/xmlsec/Group/Scribe-Instructions.html (members only link) ←
15:08:05 <dauwhe> ... should we have a summer break during July?
... should we have a summer break during July? ←
15:08:19 <dauwhe> ... it would not prevent individual task force work
... it would not prevent individual task force work ←
15:08:25 <dauwhe> ... any reactions?
... any reactions? ←
15:08:26 <clapierre1> thanks
Charles LaPierre: thanks ←
15:08:26 <Zakim> + +1.609.216.aamm
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.609.216.aamm ←
15:09:26 <dauwhe> mgylling: suggestion was to start again on 11 August
Markus Gylling: suggestion was to start again on 11 August ←
15:09:32 <Zakim> + +1.585.217.aann
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.585.217.aann ←
15:09:59 <AH_Miller> I've took my vacation last week.
Michael Miller: I've took my vacation last week. ←
15:10:11 <dauwhe> Julie: July and August are equally busy in the US
Julie Morris: July and August are equally busy in the US ←
15:10:18 <dauwhe> ... July is worse for me
... July is worse for me ←
15:10:31 <dauwhe> mgylling: Liza, Ivan, what do you say?
Markus Gylling: Liza, Ivan, what do you say? ←
15:10:45 <brady_duga> Sorry, I am having phone issues and on my commute to work, so I will have to drop and won’t be able to rejoin
Brady Duga: Sorry, I am having phone issues and on my commute to work, so I will have to drop and won’t be able to rejoin ←
15:10:46 <Luc> I'll be away beginning of August coming back after th 20th
Luc Audrain: I'll be away beginning of August coming back after th 20th ←
15:10:52 <Zakim> -duga
Zakim IRC Bot: -duga ←
15:10:53 <dauwhe> ... we could reconvene on Aug 11 as heartbeat check
... we could reconvene on Aug 11 as heartbeat check ←
15:11:24 <dauwhe> Liam: some groups have editing review meetings--review docs on IRC
Liam Quin: some groups have editing review meetings--review docs on IRC ←
15:11:40 <dauwhe> Ivan: during aug 11 heartbeat decide what to do
Ivan Herman: during aug 11 heartbeat decide what to do ←
15:12:02 <dauwhe> mgylling: we'll reconvene August 11
Markus Gylling: we'll reconvene August 11 ←
15:12:31 <dauwhe> mgylling: a11y task force has been meeting
Liza Daly: a11y task force has been meeting ←
15:12:38 <dauwhe> s/mgylling/liza/
15:12:48 <dauwhe> Liza: would that be good topic for next week?
Liza Daly: would that be good topic for next week? ←
15:13:00 <dauwhe> mgylling: Charles, do you think that would be a good topic?
Markus Gylling: Charles, do you think that would be a good topic? ←
15:13:13 <dauwhe> ???: next Monday would be good for me.
???: next Monday would be good for me. ←
15:13:17 <dauwhe> Liza: let's do that.
15:13:19 <Karen> +1 Accessibility topic on 7 July
Karen Myers: +1 Accessibility topic on 7 July ←
15:13:35 <dauwhe> Ivan: herding stray phone numbers
Ivan Herman: herding stray phone numbers ←
15:13:38 <David_stroup> 585 David stroup
David Stroup: 585 David stroup ←
15:13:46 <ivan> zakim, aamm is Laura_Fowler
Ivan Herman: zakim, aamm is Laura_Fowler ←
15:13:46 <Zakim> +Laura_Fowler; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Laura_Fowler; got it ←
15:13:53 <ivan> zakim, aann is David_stroup
Ivan Herman: zakim, aann is David_stroup ←
15:13:53 <Zakim> +David_stroup; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +David_stroup; got it ←
15:13:56 <dauwhe> ???: heavy sigh
Markus Gylling: heavy sigh ←
15:14:12 <ivan> s/???/Markus/
15:14:21 <dauwhe> mgylling: Peter, the idea is to get quality time to understand STEM use cases work
Markus Gylling: Peter, the idea is to get quality time to understand STEM use cases work ←
15:14:28 <dauwhe> ... and to get suggestions you need.
... and to get suggestions you need. ←
15:14:36 <dauwhe> ... I don't have a plan for this
... I don't have a plan for this ←
15:14:51 <dauwhe> ... I'd like to learn about the thinking and wiki work you've done so far
... I'd like to learn about the thinking and wiki work you've done so far ←
15:15:53 <Zakim> -Frederick_Hirsch
Zakim IRC Bot: -Frederick_Hirsch ←
15:15:57 <dauwhe> pkra: I added a few more math-specific use cases
Peter Krautzberger: I added a few more math-specific use cases ←
15:16:05 <dauwhe> ... things like graphing and diagrams
... things like graphing and diagrams ←
15:16:12 <dauwhe> ... not sure which direction work should go
... not sure which direction work should go ←
15:16:14 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
15:16:26 <tm> zakim, ??P13 is me
Thierry Michel: zakim, ??P13 is me ←
15:16:26 <Zakim> +tm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tm; got it ←
15:16:27 <mgylling> zakim, who is noisy?
Markus Gylling: zakim, who is noisy? ←
15:16:38 <Zakim> mgylling, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mgylling (53%), pkra (67%)
Zakim IRC Bot: mgylling, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mgylling (53%), pkra (67%) ←
15:16:49 <tm> sorry I had lost my ADSL connection :-((
Thierry Michel: sorry I had lost my ADSL connection :-(( ←
15:17:07 <dauwhe> ... progressive enhancements fed into STEM stuff
... progressive enhancements fed into STEM stuff ←
15:17:11 <Zakim> +Frederick_Hirsch
Zakim IRC Bot: +Frederick_Hirsch ←
15:17:13 <dauwhe> ... user agent improvements
... user agent improvements ←
15:17:23 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Chemistry_UC Chemistry use case
Ivan Herman: -> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Chemistry_UC Chemistry use case ←
15:17:29 <dauwhe> ... new standards like ChemML are in scope? Yes.
... new standards like ChemML are in scope? Yes. ←
15:17:51 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Diagrams_and_Graphing_UC Diagrams, Graphics Use cases
Ivan Herman: -> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Diagrams_and_Graphing_UC Diagrams, Graphics Use cases ←
15:17:52 <dauwhe> ... is mathml enough for science?
... is mathml enough for science? ←
15:18:06 <dauwhe> ... mathml may need work to support k-12
... mathml may need work to support k-12 ←
15:18:07 <Luc> Sorry cannot make it.
Luc Audrain: Sorry cannot make it. ←
15:18:19 <dauwhe> ... there were emails
... there were emails ←
15:18:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> actually it was MathML 3.0 that added the K-12 support
Bill Kasdorf: actually it was MathML 3.0 that added the K-12 support ←
15:18:38 <dauwhe> ... tcole brought up contacting digital library of mathematics folks
... tcole brought up contacting digital library of mathematics folks ←
15:19:01 <dauwhe> ... George K. added some notes on a11y pointed towards describedby and other ARIA things
... George K. added some notes on a11y pointed towards describedby and other ARIA things ←
15:19:09 <dauwhe> ... that's what I've gathered so far
... that's what I've gathered so far ←
15:19:16 <dauwhe> ... my questions aabout scope
... my questions aabout scope ←
15:19:28 <dauwhe> ... how do web components work here?
... how do web components work here? ←
15:19:40 <dauwhe> ... for chem there's ChemML that might be typical use case
... for chem there's ChemML that might be typical use case ←
15:19:56 <dauwhe> ... if platform doesn't already support these standards, could web components help?
... if platform doesn't already support these standards, could web components help? ←
15:20:09 <dauwhe> ... where is the balance to be found?
... where is the balance to be found? ←
15:20:22 <dauwhe> ... mathml is a good example. Is it a problem or poster child for web standards?
... mathml is a good example. Is it a problem or poster child for web standards? ←
15:20:29 <dauwhe> ... it's sucessfull on creation side
... it's sucessfull on creation side ←
15:20:35 <dauwhe> ... it's the html way of writing math
... it's the xml and html way of writing math ←
15:20:48 <dauwhe> ... but it's a huge problem because browsers haven't supported
... but it's a huge problem because browsers haven't supported ←
15:21:05 <dauwhe> ... web components could solve some problems, but make it harder to publish these materisals
... web components could solve some problems, but make it harder to publish these materisals ←
15:21:10 <liam> [I believe safari has mathml support, and there's some mediocre support in firefox]
Liam Quin: [I believe safari has mathml support, and there's some mediocre support in firefox] ←
15:21:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/html/xml and html
15:21:16 <dauwhe> ... where to draw the line between web components and standards work
... where to draw the line between web components and standards work ←
15:21:35 <dauwhe> ... can we do everything in SVG? Yes, but it doesn't solve problems of publishers.
... can we do everything in SVG? Yes, but it doesn't solve problems of publishers. ←
15:21:44 <dauwhe> mgylling: it's a valid question
Markus Gylling: it's a valid question ←
15:22:01 <dauwhe> ... if we look at from use case perspective, you shouldn't have to worry
... if we look at from use case perspective, you shouldn't have to worry ←
15:22:15 <dauwhe> ... the first thing we have to do is describe how publishers want to use the OWP
... the first thing we have to do is describe how publishers want to use the OWP ←
15:22:28 <dauwhe> ... whether we have a name is the next question
... whether we have a name is the next question ←
15:22:48 <dauwhe> ... you can pretend to be ignorant about the solution space, and describe the problelm space
... you can pretend to be ignorant about the solution space, and describe the problelm space ←
15:22:59 <dauwhe> ... you have updated the toc in the use case directory?
... you have updated the toc in the use case directory? ←
15:23:01 <dauwhe> pkra: yes
Peter Krautzberger: yes ←
15:23:26 <dauwhe> mgylling: it might sound like a dry, academic answer to separate things like that
Markus Gylling: it might sound like a dry, academic answer to separate things like that ←
15:23:31 <timCole> q+
Timothy Cole: q+ ←
15:23:41 <dauwhe> ...: web folks doen't know what content folks want to do
...: web folks doen't know what content folks want to do ←
15:24:03 <dauwhe> ... mathml is a good example. Great expectations among publishers, nothing from web world
... mathml is a good example. Great expectations among publishers, nothing from web world ←
15:24:25 <dauwhe> ... if we say web components, we can answer every possible question
... if we say web components, we can answer every possible question ←
15:24:35 <dauwhe> ... lots of hype right now
... lots of hype right now ←
15:24:50 <dauwhe> ... with a good amount of scripting and connectivity you can make things loook like they are real
... with a good amount of scripting and connectivity you can make things loook like they are real ←
15:25:02 <dauwhe> ... declarative vs scripted
... declarative vs scripted ←
15:25:16 <dauwhe> ... should publishing give up on declaritive and go all-in for scripting
... should publishing give up on declaritive and go all-in for scripting ←
15:25:27 <dauwhe> ... so we'd just draw math on canvas and give up on mathml
... so we'd just draw math on canvas and give up on mathml ←
15:25:36 <dauwhe> ... key issue is declarative vs scripted
... key issue is declarative vs scripted ←
15:25:38 <clapierre1> q+
Charles LaPierre: q+ ←
15:25:45 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
15:25:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←
15:25:52 <mgylling> ack timCole
Markus Gylling: ack timCole ←
15:26:19 <dauwhe> timCole: one nuance... based on mathml experience, why would publisher see advanatage in using some of these technologies
Timothy Cole: one nuance... based on mathml experience, why would publisher see advanatage in using some of these technologies ←
15:26:50 <mgylling> ack liam
Markus Gylling: ack liam ←
15:26:50 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to point out that web components don't really address the problem
Zakim IRC Bot: liam, you wanted to point out that web components don't really address the problem ←
15:26:54 <dauwhe> ... people ask why can't I use TeX
... people ask why can't I use TeX ←
15:27:00 <dauwhe> Liam: three things
15:27:04 <dauwhe> ... just two
... just two ←
15:27:23 <dauwhe> ... one: web components would address the markup issue, but we already have mathml
... one: web components would address the markup issue, but we already have mathml ←
15:27:29 <dauwhe> ... the difficult part is formatting
... the difficult part is formatting ←
15:27:36 <dauwhe> ... so you either recreate mathjax
... so you either recreate mathjax ←
15:27:48 <dauwhe> ... there's nothing in CSS to do math formatting without a lot of work
... there's nothing in CSS to do math formatting without a lot of work ←
15:27:56 <dauwhe> ... the other part is JATS
... the other part is JATS ←
15:28:02 <dauwhe> ... which is used in STM publishing
... which is used in STM publishing ←
15:28:11 <dauwhe> ... as opposed to STEM
... as opposed to STEM ←
15:28:19 <dauwhe> ... STM uses MathML extensively
... STM uses MathML extensively ←
15:28:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> and BITS is the book counterpart to JATS
Bill Kasdorf: and BITS is the book counterpart to JATS ←
15:28:29 <mgylling> ack clapierre
Markus Gylling: ack clapierre ←
15:28:36 <dauwhe> clapierre1: on a11y we have to make sure we don
Charles LaPierre: on a11y we have to make sure we don ←
15:28:49 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:28:50 <dauwhe> ... lose descriptive presentation for math
... lose descriptive presentation for math ←
15:28:57 <dauwhe> ... we can't forget that
... we can't forget that ←
15:28:59 <mgylling> ack Bill_K
Markus Gylling: ack Bill_K ←
15:29:19 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: there's now BITS: book interchange tag suite
Bill Kasdorf: there's now BITS: book interchange tag suite ←
15:29:27 <dauwhe> ... Mathml is part of that
... Mathml is part of that ←
15:29:42 <dauwhe> ... declarative vs scripted. I'm on the declarative side
... declarative vs scripted. I'm on the declarative side ←
15:29:42 <clapierre1> s/???/charles/
15:30:01 <dauwhe> ... here's something that's richly described, then scripting can do something with that
... here's something that's richly described, then scripting can do something with that ←
15:30:20 <dauwhe> ... I have a preference for making available a resourdce that many things can be done with
... I have a preference for making available a resource that many things can be done with ←
15:30:42 <ivan> s/resourdce/resource/
15:30:52 <dauwhe> mgylling: I'm a big fan of declarative, as it helps with a11y, and the presentation can be negotiated with the user
Markus Gylling: I'm a big fan of declarative, as it helps with a11y, and the presentation can be negotiated with the user ←
15:31:04 <pbelfanti> must drop from call - regrets
Paul Belfanti: must drop from call - regrets ←
15:31:08 <dauwhe> ... scripted stuff can have user negotiation, but is more like black box
... scripted stuff can have user negotiation, but is more like black box ←
15:31:09 <Zakim> -pbelfanti
Zakim IRC Bot: -pbelfanti ←
15:31:15 <dauwhe> ... it is a tricky question
... it is a tricky question ←
15:31:21 <dauwhe> ... we can love declarative
... we can love declarative ←
15:31:32 <dauwhe> ... but if the cost and struggle to get something to work that way is too high
... but if the cost and struggle to get something to work that way is too high ←
15:31:40 <dauwhe> ... will the publishing community adopt?
... will the publishing community adopt? ←
15:31:50 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
15:31:54 <mgylling> ack ivan
Markus Gylling: ack ivan ←
15:31:55 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: if it doesn't have support, it's not useful
Bill Kasdorf: if it doesn't have support, it's not useful ←
15:32:29 <dauwhe> Ivan: to comment on web components; I'm not married to them
Ivan Herman: to comment on web components; I'm not married to them ←
15:32:43 <dauwhe> ... I didn't mean to use web components for mathml
... I didn't mean to use web components for mathml ←
15:32:59 <dauwhe> ... I was wondering about chemistry or electronics
... I was wondering about chemistry or electronics ←
15:33:07 <dauwhe> ... on declarative vs scripted
... on declarative vs scripted ←
15:33:24 <dauwhe> ... in an ideal world the reason I was wondering about it was exactly that
... in an ideal world the reason I was wondering about it was exactly that ←
15:33:44 <dauwhe> ... it gives the end user a way to extend the declarative part of html who's behaviour is encoded in JS
... it gives the end user a way to extend the declarative part of html who's behaviour is encoded in JS ←
15:34:00 <dauwhe> ... once those components are defined, the author would use the markup in a declarative way
... once those components are defined, the author would use the markup in a declarative way ←
15:34:08 <dauwhe> ... and the component/script would do the presentation
... and the component/script would do the presentation ←
15:34:40 <dauwhe> ... for example, with ChemML it's a way forward without brower support for ChemML
... for example, with ChemML it's a way forward without brower support for ChemML ←
15:34:52 <dauwhe> ... i don't know if web components are rich enough for these kinds of uses
... i don't know if web components are rich enough for these kinds of uses ←
15:34:58 <dauwhe> ... but may be worth considering
... but may be worth considering ←
15:35:36 <dauwhe> mgylling: the setup you describe is not that different from MathML plus mathjax
Markus Gylling: the setup you describe is not that different from MathML plus mathjax ←
15:36:04 <dauwhe> pkra: I had understood it that way, Ivan. My question came from Markus inviting me to not care about the solution
Peter Krautzberger: I had understood it that way, Ivan. My question came from Markus inviting me to not care about the solution ←
15:36:16 <dauwhe> ... I do believe web components will be useful
... I do believe web components will be useful ←
15:36:24 <dauwhe> ... my question: how do we combine this?
... my question: how do we combine this? ←
15:36:32 <dauwhe> ... what do we want from interesteed parties?
... what do we want from interesteed parties? ←
15:37:00 <dauwhe> ... our use case is going to be to use this markup but not as a web standard, but as a web component standard
... our use case is going to be to use this markup but not as a web standard, but as a web component standard ←
15:37:03 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:37:07 <dauwhe> ... how do we get the richest feedback?
... how do we get the richest feedback? ←
15:37:12 <dauwhe> mgylling: I think so
Markus Gylling: I think so ←
15:37:56 <dauwhe> pkra: web platform offers everything with mathml svg canvas, you'd have a really powerful base
Peter Krautzberger: web platform offers everything with mathml svg canvas, you'd have a really powerful base ←
15:38:09 <dauwhe> ... it comes down to making it usable
... it comes down to making it usable ←
15:38:17 <dauwhe> ... what do we do on the standards side of this
... what do we do on the standards side of this ←
15:38:28 <dauwhe> ... do we pick winners, identify the standards with the biggest market
... do we pick winners, identify the standards with the biggest market ←
15:38:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←
15:38:48 <dauwhe> ... and combine that with ideas that can work as web components
... and combine that with ideas that can work as web components ←
15:39:04 <dauwhe> mgylling: the pub community wants answers. what should we focus on?
Markus Gylling: the pub community wants answers. what should we focus on? ←
15:39:17 <dauwhe> ... big-time publishers still provide math as bitmap images
... big-time publishers still provide math as bitmap images ←
15:39:35 <dauwhe> ... not because they're ignorant but because it's the only thing that works everywhere
... not because they're ignorant but because it's the only thing that works everywhere ←
15:39:49 <dauwhe> ... this IG can provide answers: you should use X for this problem
... this IG can provide answers: you should use X for this problem ←
15:40:23 <dauwhe> ... another thought: the fact that web components exist doesn't matter in most cases because publishers don't have the engineering staff
... another thought: the fact that web components exist doesn't matter in most cases because publishers don't have the engineering staff ←
15:40:43 <dauwhe> ... that will feed into a preexisting web component taht would render such content
... that will feed into a preexisting web component taht would render such content ←
15:41:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
Bill Kasdorf: +1 ←
15:41:10 <dauwhe> ... it doesn't remove the need for standards, just changes where things are standardized, as a web component thing or as a markup language
... it doesn't remove the need for standards, just changes where things are standardized, as a web component thing or as a markup language ←
15:41:16 <dauwhe> Ivan: not either/or
Ivan Herman: not either/or ←
15:41:38 <dauwhe> ... from author/editor POV, it looks clear that a declarative standard is necessary.
... from author/editor POV, it looks clear that a declarative standard is necessary. ←
15:41:47 <dauwhe> ... who would do that is separate WQ
... who would do that is separate question ←
15:41:52 <dauwhe> s/WQ/question
15:42:13 <dauwhe> ... if I would do that today, the browsers will not just implement it by themselves
... if I would do that today, the browsers will not just implement it by themselves ←
15:42:21 <dauwhe> ... we've learned the lesson of MathML
... we've learned the lesson of MathML ←
15:42:31 <dauwhe> ... I'd look at another way of implementing
... I'd look at another way of implementing ←
15:42:42 <dauwhe> ... web components might be another way of implementing something
... web components might be another way of implementing something ←
15:42:50 <dauwhe> ... so these things can be done in parallel
... so these things can be done in parallel ←
15:43:05 <dauwhe> ... my question is still (for example with ChemML)
... my question is still (for example with ChemML) ←
15:43:14 <dauwhe> ... is this doable with web components?
... is this doable with web components? ←
15:43:25 <dauwhe> ... it may be technically not feasible
... it may be technically not feasible ←
15:43:34 <dauwhe> ... I don't know if that's true or false
... I don't know if that's true or false ←
15:43:46 <dauwhe> ... it would be very valuable to find out the answer
... it would be very valuable to find out the answer ←
15:44:01 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
15:44:06 <mgylling> ack ivan
Markus Gylling: ack ivan ←
15:44:20 <dauwhe> ... I don't just don't want to believe that web components would solve, in case they would't
... I don't just don't want to believe that web components would solve, in case they would't ←
15:44:31 <dauwhe> ... Peter, you may know this
... Peter, you may know this ←
15:44:39 <liam> [I note that today there's JavaScript to render CML in SVG]
Liam Quin: [I note that today there's JavaScript to render CML in SVG] ←
15:44:49 <dauwhe> ... the reason why the browsers have not implemented mathml is that they don't feel there's a market
... the reason why the browsers have not implemented mathml is that they don't feel there's a market ←
15:44:57 <dauwhe> ... it's not a priority
... it's not a priority ←
15:45:18 <dauwhe> ... would a concentrated documentation of all the needs of the publishing industry overall
... would a concentrated documentation of all the needs of the publishing industry overall ←
15:45:30 <dauwhe> ... including scholarly publishing (and not just books)
... including scholarly publishing (and not just books) ←
15:45:40 <dauwhe> ... and bring in business figures to show how important this is
... and bring in business figures to show how important this is ←
15:45:51 <dauwhe> ... would this help browsers change their mind?
... would this help browsers change their mind? ←
15:46:06 <dauwhe> mgylling: we should talk about who to reach out
Markus Gylling: we should talk about who to reach out ←
15:46:10 <mgylling> ack Bill_K
Markus Gylling: ack Bill_K ←
15:46:34 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: AAP implementation project, Mathml was the highest priority from a11y people
Bill Kasdorf: AAP implementation project, Mathml was the highest priority from a11y people ←
15:47:10 <dauwhe> ... on the strategy of mathml plus canvas, I believe that just deals with display issues
... on the strategy of mathml plus canvas, I believe that just deals with display issues ←
15:47:28 <dauwhe> ... and not interactive issues?
... and not interactive issues? ←
15:47:32 <dauwhe> pkra: Yes
Peter Krautzberger: Yes ←
15:47:51 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: another benefit of mathml is that it does both things
Bill Kasdorf: another benefit of mathml is that it does both things ←
15:48:12 <dauwhe> pkra: there's a bit of a gap here, there's two separate standards
Peter Krautzberger: there's a bit of a gap here, there's two separate standards ←
15:48:16 <dauwhe> ... content vs display
... content vs display ←
15:48:31 <dauwhe> ... presentation is already pretty rich, a11y tools can use
... presentation is already pretty rich, a11y tools can use ←
15:49:09 <dauwhe> ... there aren't authoring tools in content mathml
... there aren't authoring tools in content mathml ←
15:49:22 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: presentational is the highest priority
Bill Kasdorf: presentational is the highest priority ←
15:49:30 <dauwhe> pkra: it's easy to convert back and forth
Peter Krautzberger: it's easy to convert back and forth ←
15:49:50 <dauwhe> ... then you can talk about more advanced computation/display
... then you can talk about more advanced computation/display ←
15:49:54 <mgylling> ack liam
Markus Gylling: ack liam ←
15:49:54 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to discuss some people to whom to reach out to - CML: peter Murray-Rust (of course); STM publishing: http://www.stm-assoc.org/ and others; mathml semantic tools
Zakim IRC Bot: liam, you wanted to discuss some people to whom to reach out to - CML: peter Murray-Rust (of course); STM publishing: http://www.stm-assoc.org/ and others; mathml semantic tools ←
15:49:57 <Zakim> ... will happen, e.g. from maple, wulfram, if needed
Zakim IRC Bot: ... will happen, e.g. from maple, wulfram, if needed ←
15:50:12 <dauwhe> ... I've given up trying to understand vendors
... I've given up trying to understand vendors ←
15:50:33 <dauwhe> ... lots of interest on browser implemtation side, just not enough to get the ball rolling
... lots of interest on browser implemtation side, just not enough to get the ball rolling ←
15:50:44 <dauwhe> ... I agree with ivan, making the business case would help
... I agree with ivan, making the business case would help ←
15:50:53 <dauwhe> ... and that's not just for mathml
... and that's not just for mathml ←
15:51:03 <dauwhe> mgylling: that should be the ambition of the use cases
Markus Gylling: that should be the ambition of the use cases ←
15:51:13 <dauwhe> ... let's just describe what publishers want to do
... let's just describe what publishers want to do ←
15:51:27 <liam> [some people to whom to reach out - CML: peter Murray-Rust (of course); STM publishing: http://www.stm-assoc.org/ and others; mathml semantic tools will happen, e.g. from maple, wulfram, if needed ]
Liam Quin: [some people to whom to reach out - CML: peter Murray-Rust (of course); STM publishing: http://www.stm-assoc.org/ and others; mathml semantic tools will happen, e.g. from maple, wulfram, if needed ] ←
15:51:29 <dauwhe> Liam: who to reach out to?
Liam Quin: who to reach out to? ←
15:51:59 <dauwhe> ... someone mentioned CML, Peter Murray-Rust; there's an association of STM publishers
... someone mentioned CML, Peter Murray-Rust; there's an association of STM publishers ←
15:52:20 <dauwhe> ... Maple and Wolfram are market leaders for software
... Maple and Wolfram are market leaders for software ←
15:52:23 <pkra> add sagemath, iPython.
Peter Krautzberger: add sagemath, iPython. ←
15:52:34 <clapierre1> Happy Canada Day (tomorrow July 1) :)
Charles LaPierre: Happy Canada Day (tomorrow July 1) :) ←
15:52:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+ two addl suggestions: Design Science; SSP (Society for Scholarly Publishing)
Bill Kasdorf: q+ two addl suggestions: Design Science; SSP (Society for Scholarly Publishing) ←
15:52:57 <dauwhe> Liam: if publishing world said we need this, there are people with authoring tools
Liam Quin: if publishing world said we need this, there are people with authoring tools ←
15:52:58 <mgylling> ack Bill_K
Markus Gylling: ack Bill_K ←
15:53:01 <liam> [merci]
15:53:17 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Two more... I can get people from SSP folks
Bill Kasdorf: Two more... I can get people from SSP folks ←
15:53:37 <AH_Miller> How about Design Science and the work being done by Frédéric Wang?
Michael Miller: How about Design Science and the work being done by Frédéric Wang? ←
15:53:41 <dauwhe> ... also Design Science
... also Design Science ←
15:53:41 <liam> +1 Design Science
Liam Quin: +1 Design Science ←
15:54:19 <dauwhe> Liam: they also make word plugins
Liam Quin: they also make word plugins ←
15:54:31 <dauwhe> mgylling: the idea would be to grow use case collection
Markus Gylling: the idea would be to grow use case collection ←
15:54:36 <AH_Miller> Frédéric Wang has been working on MathML for Gecko and WebKit.
Michael Miller: Frédéric Wang has been working on MathML for Gecko and WebKit. ←
15:54:37 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:54:40 <dauwhe> ... not only to convince browsers about mathml
... not only to convince browsers about mathml ←
15:54:50 <dauwhe> ... but to grow the whole world of scholarly publishing
... but to grow the whole world of scholarly publishing ←
15:54:59 <dauwhe> ... and we invite feedback from more people
... and we invite feedback from more people ←
15:55:22 <dauwhe> ... do you have things to add to existing use case collection?
... do you have things to add to existing use case collection? ←
15:55:34 <dauwhe> pkra: I have some rough ideas but there's not a list
Peter Krautzberger: I have some rough ideas but there's not a list ←
15:55:45 <dauwhe> ... let's reach out to everyone to get ideas
... let's reach out to everyone to get ideas ←
15:56:21 <dauwhe> ... two things: who's working on the task force?
... two things: who's working on the task force? ←
15:56:28 <dauwhe> ... Tim Cole is interested
... Tim Cole is interested ←
15:56:45 <dauwhe> ... especially on non-math stuff
... especially on non-math stuff ←
15:56:54 <dauwhe> ... engineering has many higher needs
... engineering has many higher needs ←
15:57:15 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'd be happy to help, I have lots of contacts
Bill Kasdorf: I'd be happy to help, I have lots of contacts ←
15:57:25 <dauwhe> timCole: I have lots of contacts, too.
Timothy Cole: I have lots of contacts, too. ←
15:57:39 <mgylling> ack ivan
Markus Gylling: ack ivan ←
15:57:45 <dauwhe> Ivan: before we go, one more comment
Ivan Herman: before we go, one more comment ←
15:58:14 <dauwhe> ... Madi and Bill did lots of interviews with people in the space
... Madi and Bill did lots of interviews with people in the space ←
15:58:25 <dauwhe> ... which would be synthesized into a document
... which would be synthesized into a document ←
15:58:33 <dauwhe> ... something similar would be helpful here
... something similar would be helpful here ←
15:58:42 <dauwhe> ... since we want a "business plan"
... since we want a "business plan" ←
15:58:55 <dauwhe> ... backing that up with major players and companies gives it more weight
... backing that up with major players and companies gives it more weight ←
15:59:09 <dauwhe> ... so you might want to look at what bill and Madi did as an example
... so you might want to look at what bill and Madi did as an example ←
15:59:15 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: it's all on the wiki now
Bill Kasdorf: it's all on the wiki now ←
15:59:25 <dauwhe> mgylling: it's a good way to gather data
Markus Gylling: it's a good way to gather data ←
15:59:37 <dauwhe> ... it does take time, though
... it does take time, though ←
15:59:59 <dauwhe> Ivan: Force 11 is looking at scholarly publishing
Ivan Herman: Force 11 is looking at scholarly publishing ←
16:00:49 <dauwhe> pkra: Summary: I'm in a good place right now; I have a lot go through
Peter Krautzberger: Summary: I'm in a good place right now; I have a lot go through ←
16:01:06 <dauwhe> ... can plan what you're describing, and come back with more use cases etc
... can plan what you're describing, and come back with more use cases etc ←
16:01:36 <dauwhe> mgylling: sounds good to me
Markus Gylling: sounds good to me ←
16:01:52 <clapierre1> yes
Charles LaPierre: yes ←
16:01:53 <dauwhe> ... we're over time. Any final comments?
... we're over time. Any final comments? ←
16:02:14 <Zakim> -liza
Zakim IRC Bot: -liza ←
16:02:16 <Zakim> -David_stroup
Zakim IRC Bot: -David_stroup ←
16:02:16 <Zakim> -LauraD
Zakim IRC Bot: -LauraD ←
16:02:17 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
Zakim IRC Bot: -Karen_Myers ←
16:02:17 <Zakim> -philm
Zakim IRC Bot: -philm ←
16:02:18 <Zakim> -Julie_Morris
Zakim IRC Bot: -Julie_Morris ←
16:02:19 <Zakim> -TimCole
Zakim IRC Bot: -TimCole ←
16:02:19 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
Zakim IRC Bot: -Bill_Kasdorf ←
16:02:20 <Zakim> -pkra
Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra ←
16:02:20 <Zakim> - +1.240.421.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.240.421.aaaa ←
16:02:20 <Zakim> -Frederick_Hirsch
Zakim IRC Bot: -Frederick_Hirsch ←
16:02:20 <Zakim> -Vlad
Zakim IRC Bot: -Vlad ←
16:02:21 <Zakim> -clapierre1
Zakim IRC Bot: -clapierre1 ←
16:02:21 <Zakim> -mgylling
Zakim IRC Bot: -mgylling ←
16:02:23 <Zakim> -dkaplan3
Zakim IRC Bot: -dkaplan3 ←
16:02:23 <Zakim> -Laura_Fowler
Zakim IRC Bot: -Laura_Fowler ←
16:02:24 <Zakim> -dauwhe
Zakim IRC Bot: -dauwhe ←
16:02:24 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:02:25 <tm> rrsagent, draft minutes
Thierry Michel: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:02:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-dpub-minutes.html tm
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-dpub-minutes.html tm ←
16:02:32 <Zakim> -Liam
Zakim IRC Bot: -Liam ←
20:07:59 <Zakim> -tm
(No events recorded for 245 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -tm ←
20:12:59 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, tmichel, in DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, tmichel, in DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM ←
20:13:01 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended ←
20:13:01 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.240.421.aaaa, +1.650.644.aabb, mgylling, Ivan, +1.917.207.aacc, dauwhe, +1.212.364.aadd, philm, Liam, clapierre1, +1.617.439.aaee, duga, +1.617.439.aaff,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.240.421.aaaa, +1.650.644.aabb, mgylling, Ivan, +1.917.207.aacc, dauwhe, +1.212.364.aadd, philm, Liam, clapierre1, +1.617.439.aaee, duga, +1.617.439.aaff, ←
20:13:02 <Zakim> ... dkaplan3, Vlad, +1.217.244.aagg, +1.617.858.aahh, +1.734.904.aaii, +1.718.701.aajj, liza, TimCole, +1.201.236.aakk, +1.646.336.aall, pkra, Bill_Kasdorf, LauraD, pbelfanti,
Zakim IRC Bot: ... dkaplan3, Vlad, +1.217.244.aagg, +1.617.858.aahh, +1.734.904.aaii, +1.718.701.aajj, liza, TimCole, +1.201.236.aakk, +1.646.336.aall, pkra, Bill_Kasdorf, LauraD, pbelfanti, ←
20:13:02 <Zakim> ... tmichel, Julie_Morris, Karen_Myers, Frederick_Hirsch, +1.609.216.aamm, +1.585.217.aann, Laura_Fowler, David_stroup, tm
Zakim IRC Bot: ... tmichel, Julie_Morris, Karen_Myers, Frederick_Hirsch, +1.609.216.aamm, +1.585.217.aann, Laura_Fowler, David_stroup, tm ←
Formatted by CommonScribe