IRC log of pf on 2013-12-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:22 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:00:23 [MarkS]
zakim, mute me
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RRSAgent, make logs member
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Zakim has joined #pf
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Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
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ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM already started
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Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
15:00:27 [trackbot]
Date: 16 December 2013
15:00:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]
meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
15:00:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Rich
15:00:46 [Zakim]
15:00:49 [MarkS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jon_Gunderson, [Mozilla], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, marks, ??P31
15:00:58 [janina_]
zakim, ??P31 is me
15:00:58 [Zakim]
+janina_; got it
15:01:05 [richardschwerdtfeger]
15:02:32 [Zakim]
15:02:36 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P50 is Michael_Cooper
15:02:36 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper; got it
15:02:52 [davidb]
Zakim, Mozilla has Alexander_Surkov
15:02:52 [Zakim]
+Alexander_Surkov; got it
15:02:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make log public
15:03:08 [Zakim]
15:03:47 [clown]
clown has joined #pf
15:04:33 [SteveF]
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15:04:59 [Zakim]
15:05:09 [clown]
zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:05:09 [Zakim]
+Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
15:05:18 [MichaelC]
zakim, ipcaller is SteveF
15:05:18 [Zakim]
+SteveF; got it
15:05:22 [clown]
zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:05:22 [Zakim]
ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:07:30 [Zakim]
15:07:38 [jongund]
JS: Update on status of implementation guide
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JS: Need to add version information on what was tested
15:09:22 [jongund]
JS: In two or three years people will want to know what was tested
15:09:36 [jcraig]
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15:09:39 [jongund]
Clown: When do we need it by?
15:09:59 [jongund]
MC: Soon
15:10:23 [jongund]
RS: Comments about at risk items?
15:10:38 [jongund]
MC: There was a good discussion
15:10:52 [Zakim]
15:11:09 [jongund]
Clown: There a couple edits the GNOME people wanted in the editors draft
15:11:17 [jongund]
MC: When were they made?
15:11:49 [jongund]
Clown: December 4th
15:12:44 [jongund]
Clown: I marked two items for pending review, mostly for the benefit of the gnome people
15:13:14 [jongund]
RS: What is the mac OS X version information we tested on?
15:13:33 [jongund]
JC: The best thing to do is use the OS version number
15:13:45 [jongund]
MC: Specified against
15:14:12 [jongund]
JC: Version 10.9.0, API only ships with the OS update
15:14:18 [jongund]
MC: We need a URI
15:14:52 [jongund]
MC: It points to the version of the API
15:15:35 [jongund]
MC: Right now it points to mac, we need to point to a stable URL that includes the version
15:15:37 [clown]
15:16:39 [jongund]
MC: Concerned about the world being true at this point, changes in APIs require new documentation
15:16:58 [jongund]
Clown: We can use 2.1
15:17:22 [jongund]
Clown: I put an URL in the chat room
15:17:41 [clown]
15:17:42 [jongund]
JS: We need a stable URI, that doesn't change over time
15:17:56 [jongund]
JS: I know they exist at GNOME,org
15:18:06 [jcraig]
For the Mac AX API, you can reference the same location:
15:18:09 [jongund]
JC: there is a couple of links that we could put in
15:18:24 [jongund]
JC: It says available in 10.2 and later...
15:18:39 [jcraig]
15:18:47 [jcraig]
Available in OS X v10.6 and later.
15:19:10 [jongund]
JC: This one says available in 10.6 or later, or deprecated
15:19:23 [jcraig]
Current release is 10.9
15:19:25 [jongund]
RS: If we have verision numbers that should be fine
15:19:35 [jongund]
JC: Latest release is 10.9
15:19:43 [jongund]
Clown: Do I have the URL?
15:20:00 [jongund]
JC: I pasted what is in the document now
15:20:10 [jongund]
Clown: I pasted what is in the document now
15:20:28 [jongund]
JC: The one I put in is the protocol reference
15:20:44 [jongund]
Clown: I should use yours? What should I put there?
15:20:55 [jongund]
RS: Mac OS 10.9 version number
15:21:04 [jcraig]
15:21:23 [jongund]
JC: The companion guide link is the one you already have
15:21:34 [jongund]
Clown: Use the one in the chat room now?
15:21:55 [jongund]
Clown: I need something from Microsoft MSAA
15:22:03 [jongund]
Clown: there is no version information
15:22:12 [jongund]
Clown: If you follow the link it might
15:22:19 [clown]
15:22:34 [clown]
15:22:40 [jongund]
JS: I think we are 1.3 or something like that
15:22:56 [jongund]
Clown: this is what i have for IAcessible2
15:23:03 [jongund]
JS: this sounds right
15:23:17 [jongund]
RS: It has table 2 so that would be correct
15:24:09 [clown]
15:24:31 [jongund]
RS: Are we all set with this? Can we moved on?
15:24:58 [jongund]
Clown: UIA is at risk right now
15:25:09 [jongund]
Clown: There is no version number at this UIA link
15:25:20 [jongund]
RS: You need to ask cynthia about this
15:25:35 [jongund]
RS: Accessibility defects in HTML5
15:25:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Topic: HTML5 defect 23371
15:25:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
15:26:08 [jongund]
TOPIC: Strong Native Semantics table appears to imply @hidden trumps @aria-hidden
15:26:49 [jongund]
SF: Before the change was made in the spec, the HIDDEN attribute, basically HIDDEN overrides aria-hidden=false
15:27:37 [jongund]
SF: Hidden shouldn't override aria-hidden=false, it wouldn't block the content from being seen by AT
15:28:38 [jongund]
JC: I objected because hidden is a boolean, most elements is not hidden, that aria-hidden would never be valid, since the native semantics would override the aria-hidden
15:28:55 [jongund]
MK: You mean aria-hidden means nothing
15:29:16 [jongund]
Clown: does hidden apply to all elements?
15:29:39 [jongund]
JC: yes, all render able elements
15:30:15 [jongund]
MK: So it cases where you have the hidden attribute and aria-hidden=false
15:31:13 [jongund]
Alex: I understand there are 2 issue: one is semantic and you get two different version of the tree
15:31:26 [jcraig]
q+ to explain the semantic distinction Alex mentioned
15:31:49 [jongund]
RS: I think the thing is, if something visually hidden, but whats the information available to people with AT
15:31:52 [SteveF]
current support for hidden/aria-hidden
15:32:44 [jongund]
MK: I think these is a big problem the authors leaving aria-hidden, I think we need a different attribute, non-visual description attribute
15:32:54 [jongund]
RS: We could do that in the future
15:33:19 [jcraig]
q+ to respond to Alex's objection about *unhiding* hidden elements without rendering views
15:33:33 [jongund]
MK: The idea of revealing content to an AT that is not visible for visually
15:33:54 [jongund]
SF: This is a technique that has been used for years, using offscreen
15:33:59 [jongund]
MK: that is different
15:34:05 [jongund]
JC: how is that different
15:34:46 [jongund]
MK: That is not generally the way people hide content, we would not normally hide collapsed stuff with CSS or hidden attribue
15:35:11 [jongund]
MK: Hiding content off left was a hack
15:35:50 [jongund]
JC: there are many other cases like opacity and other techniques
15:35:57 [jcraig]
ack me
15:35:57 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to explain the semantic distinction Alex mentioned and to respond to Alex's objection about *unhiding* hidden elements without rendering views
15:36:18 [jongund]
MK: These are all problems that need to have a solution
15:36:37 [jongund]
JC: In the spec it says hidden means hidden in all presentations
15:37:07 [jcraig]
15:37:17 [jongund]
JC: So having aria-hidden make it visible, also hidden can become visible using CSS
15:37:57 [jongund]
JC: The main purposes is to hide and show content visually, we need a way to override for AT
15:38:08 [jcraig]
<div role="status" style="display:none"></div>
15:38:12 [jongund]
JC: So if you had an off screen live region
15:39:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
15:39:23 [jongund]
JC: lot of cases where this is the least hackey solution
15:41:28 [jongund]
MK: If you can associate it with it before or after, the actual screen position is not important
15:41:33 [jongund]
JC: It depends
15:41:57 [jongund]
MK: There is one statements, you need a way of overriding HTML5 hidden
15:42:19 [jcraig]
Not specifically tied to @hidden. Also applies to display:none; etc
15:43:06 [jongund]
MK: It seems like HIDDEN and other CSS properties are all about visual rendering, if we need non-visual content visible we should have a way to do it regardless of CSS or HIDDEN
15:43:32 [jongund]
JC: That is what this is for, aria-hidden is to overriding native semantics
15:44:06 [jongund]
MK: That is what I am saying that we need a easy way without the confusion of CSS states
15:44:52 [jongund]
Clown: Some screen readers were looking at the DOM since they did not see the computed CSS
15:45:26 [jongund]
Clown: aria-hidden was special when it was introduced
15:45:52 [jongund]
RS: Authors are using it to hide content...., and to expose content that was visually hidden
15:45:55 [jcraig]
"Some screen readers" = Firevox
15:46:28 [jongund]
RS: We are having problems with aria-hidden being false
15:46:28 [jcraig]
All other screen readers at the time used the screen rendering.
15:47:03 [jongund]
RS: One case is that it is being used to make content visible to AT that is hidden to other people
15:47:34 [jongund]
JC: one common use is hidden header, position them off screen so they are seen by screen readers
15:47:38 [jongund]
RS: Other examples
15:47:55 [jongund]
MK: I don't think we are short of use cases
15:47:56 [jcraig]
skip links
15:48:37 [jongund]
SF: Visual link does not have enough information, so you put content in a span to add extra information and put it off screen
15:48:45 [jcraig]
<a href="#">Learn more <span hidden aria-hidden="false">about product X</span></a>
15:48:56 [jongund]
RS: that is a situation that would impair the sighted user
15:49:15 [jongund]
SF: There is no good method other than to push it off screen
15:49:19 [jcraig]
Sighted users see "Learn more"; a11y users hear "Learn more about product X"
15:49:45 [jongund]
SF: it is usually discrete chunks of test, not a whole new user interface
15:49:57 [jongund]
JC: There a bunch of use cases
15:50:26 [jongund]
RS: Alex needs more information about use cases, does he have enough use cases?
15:50:56 [SteveF]
Invisible Content Just for Screen Reader Users
15:51:13 [jongund]
Alex: Evidence of need of aria-hidden for description...
15:51:33 [jongund]
MK: The live region use cases is especially important
15:52:18 [jongund]
MK: So like search results summary, is a strong case, dynamic information only to AT users
15:53:09 [jongund]
MK: You don't want only the .. you type in a text box and different types of new content appear on the screen, you don't want a live region, you want something short and terse
15:53:35 [jongund]
JC: Some times that is visually displayed, but screen reader users need that information
15:53:57 [jongund]
MK: Sometimes the information on screen is too terse, so it needs more context
15:54:17 [jcraig]
s/but sometimes it's not, and screen reader users still need that information/
15:54:19 [jongund]
RS: the live region use case is particularly strong
15:54:41 [jongund]
RS: When aria-hidden=false is exposes content to AT
15:55:02 [jongund]
Alex: I would like to see some examples and make sure there are other techniques
15:55:34 [jongund]
JC: The other techniques are CSS hacks, and this hack seems to be more understandable than the other hacks
15:55:41 [Zakim]
15:55:55 [jongund]
MK: We need something on the aria side to solve the problem
15:56:09 [Zakim]
15:56:15 [richardschwerdtfeger]
15:56:55 [clown]
q+ to ask if all use cases are relevant only to screen readers
15:57:44 [jongund]
MK: We need an unambiguous way to make information visible to AT and specifically hidden to visual users
15:57:58 [jongund]
RS: We are not able control of the visual rendering
15:58:26 [jongund]
RS: Alot of stuff in HTML5 came because we showed them an early draft of aria
15:58:31 [jcraig]
q+ to remind everyone that accessibility APIs are used by more than just screen readers
15:58:48 [jongund]
MK: There could be an HTML5 attribute for non-visual display only
15:59:14 [jongund]
JC: Accessibility APIs are used by other people than ATs
15:59:52 [jongund]
MK: Problematically to AT and not ever displayed on the screen
16:00:02 [jongund]
JC: I think that is what aria-hidden is doing
16:00:10 [jcraig]
s/ATs/screen readers, such as switch control, zoom, automation, etc./
16:00:29 [jongund]
RS: I think we need to come to a decision on this?
16:00:30 [jcraig]
16:00:36 [jongund]
JC: What is the decision?
16:01:10 [jongund]
RS: That HIDDEN attribute has weak native semantics in relationship to aria-hidden attribute
16:01:21 [jongund]
JC: is that a HTML5 decision?
16:01:30 [jongund]
RS: SF asked that we vote onthis
16:01:40 [jongund]
MK: Do we have a decenter?
16:02:13 [jongund]
RS: Alex do you support SF proposal that HIDDEN has weak semantics?
16:02:28 [jongund]
Alex: What I hear contradicts HTML5 concepts
16:02:52 [jongund]
RS: What we are saying with aria-hidden controls what is rendered to the accessibility APIs
16:03:14 [jongund]
Alex: aria usually defers to native semantics
16:03:42 [jongund]
RS: HTML5 will define the strong and weak native semantics
16:04:35 [jongund]
JC: Do you agree with this use case
16:04:52 [jongund]
Alex: We expose, that particular item is hidden....
16:05:15 [jongund]
JC: If you agree, then without the HIDDEN attribute you would have the same function
16:05:40 [jongund]
JC: The HIDDEN attribute has to be strong in either case
16:05:54 [jongund]
RS: Alex, it doesn't seem to object
16:06:03 [jongund]
RS: Does anyone object?
16:06:20 [jongund]
Clown: Is the two choices strong or weak?
16:06:32 [jongund]
JC: You can have no relationship
16:07:04 [jongund]
Clown: In current implementations of HIDDEN is to use display: none
16:07:24 [jongund]
Clown: I don't want the strong mapping
16:08:10 [jongund]
JC: Mapping we would not want it to be aria-hidden false
16:08:44 [jongund]
JC: If you have it is the weak mapping, that it would still be hidden
16:09:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:09:10 [jongund]
SF: If there is nothing specified than browsers can do what ever they want
16:09:51 [jongund]
SF: My understanding is that Webkit implemented this behavior, it exposes the elements, but not the content
16:09:59 [jongund]
JC: You are right there is a bug
16:10:40 [jongund]
SF: If you use aria-hidden=false it exposes it as expected in most borwser/ats, but not FF
16:10:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:11:00 [jongund]
Clown: Are all the use cases all the screen use cases?
16:11:06 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:11:07 [Zakim]
Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to ask if all use cases are relevant only to screen readers
16:11:08 [jongund]
SF: I think so
16:11:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:11:43 [jongund]
Clown: Accessibility API is not just for screen readers, including magnifiers
16:12:04 [jongund]
JC: Magnifiers use the api to look for hit targets
16:12:38 [jongund]
Clown: Magnifiers also track keyboard focus
16:12:54 [jongund]
JC: This would not allow keyboard focus
16:13:32 [jongund]
Clown: There is an off screen attribute in some APIs
16:14:08 [jongund]
SF: Part of some of the implementations that defining some information of this situation
16:14:29 [jongund]
MK: in the accessibility API
16:14:47 [jongund]
Clown: Sme APIs have it we just need to map it
16:15:04 [jongund]
Clown: It might be in there, i don't have it memorized
16:15:20 [jongund]
RS: Do people have any objects to SF proposal?
16:15:42 [jongund]
RS: none, resolution that it be a weak binding
16:15:45 [jcraig]
ACTION: Joseph to consider mapping the "offscreen" API properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements.
16:15:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1320 - Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2013-12-23].
16:15:59 [jongund]
RS: thats the first one. we also have the API binding
16:16:43 [jongund]
RS: in the case of aria-hidden=false do we expose to accessibility API with additional information on being on screen in ARIA 1.1 spec
16:17:12 [jongund]
MK: Are there any limitations on what could be exposed?
16:17:39 [jongund]
MK: You would have to expose it as part of the tree?
16:17:51 [jongund]
RS: We don't have time to do the details here
16:18:27 [jongund]
SF: if you have a container element with display: none or hidden, you can't expose children, then you have some .....
16:18:43 [jcraig]
16:18:44 [jongund]
MK: that's what I want to be clear on
16:18:55 [jongund]
RS: They would apply to the sub tree
16:19:18 [jongund]
JC: It applies to text nodes, element nodes have there own display properties
16:19:38 [jongund]
JC: A non-hidden element that is inside a hidden element is still hidden
16:19:50 [jongund]
JC: That can be clarified in the spec
16:19:57 [SteveF]
example <p id="h" hidden><span aria-hidden="false">patrick is a knob</span> test 8 html5 hidden aria-hidden="false" on child element;</p>
16:20:02 [jongund]
MK: if you had a hidden sub menu......
16:20:14 [SteveF]
the above example does not work
16:21:42 [jongund]
... discussion of an authoring situation where people use aria-hidden as a CSS selector
16:22:31 [jongund]
JC: Sometimes authors make error with dynamically changing content not being updated
16:23:07 [jongund]
MK: You retain all the semantics, it works on any elements, aria-hidden=false always override
16:23:20 [jongund]
JC: I will add an action to clarify in ARIA 1.1 spec
16:23:48 [jongund]
RS: We have 2 action items: one for implementation guide and one for the ARIA 1.1 spec
16:23:57 [jongund]
JC: The implementation guide is already there
16:24:40 [jongund]
Alex: I agree with ARIA 1.1 changes
16:25:30 [jongund]
RS: If aria-hidden=false where something is hidden using hidden or display: none needs additional information on that it is not visible
16:25:35 [jcraig]
ACTION: jcraig to clarify in ARIA 1.1 that aria-hidden="false" does not override the hidden state of parent nodes, only the current node. e.g. <div hidden><div aria-hidden="false">this text still hidden</div></div>
16:25:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1321 - Clarify in aria 1.1 that aria-hidden="false" does not override the hidden state of parent nodes, only the current node. e.g. <div hidden><div aria-hidden="false">this text still hidden</div></div> [on James Craig - due 2013-12-23].
16:25:54 [jongund]
Alex: having an accessible objects for hidden things is not very useful to ATs
16:26:09 [jongund]
JC: are you taking about the accessible name?
16:26:24 [jongund]
Alex: yes, having an accessible object is not useful
16:26:55 [jongund]
JC: Use cases: off screen headers; off screen text in a link
16:27:14 [jcraig]
<a href="#">Learn more <span hidden aria-hidden="false">about product X</span></a>
16:27:34 [jongund]
JC: A more complex example is a live region
16:27:48 [jongund]
JC: There are some examples in the test cases
16:28:14 [jongund]
JG: I can make some examples
16:28:37 [jongund]
JG: I will send to the list
16:29:08 [jcraig]
ACTION: jon to make some examples for aria-hidden="false" (including a hidden live region)
16:29:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1322 - Make some examples for aria-hidden="false" (including a hidden live region) [on Jon Gunderson - due 2013-12-23].
16:29:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:29:24 [jongund]
RS: I would like to squeeze this in
16:29:33 [jongund]
JC: I have to leave soon
16:29:49 [jongund]
TOPIC: review other aria state mappings to see if they need to be explicitly allowed
16:30:00 [jongund]
Clown: aria-inert
16:30:09 [jongund]
JC: We discuss at FTF meeting?
16:30:21 [jongund]
RS: Ok to discuss at FTF meeting
16:30:40 [Zakim]
16:30:42 [Zakim]
16:30:44 [jcraig]
jcraig has left #pf
16:30:50 [jongund]
RS: Next meeting is January 6th
16:31:17 [jongund]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:31:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jongund
16:31:21 [janina_]
16:31:23 [Zakim]
16:31:54 [Zakim]
16:32:14 [Zakim]
16:32:16 [Zakim]
16:32:18 [Zakim]
16:33:52 [clown]
16:35:36 [MichaelC]
16:47:50 [Zakim]
16:48:12 [MichaelC]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:48:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina_, Cooper
16:48:16 [MichaelC]
zakim, list attendees
16:48:16 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, marks, janina_, Michael_Cooper, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, SteveF, Matt_King, James_Craig,
16:48:19 [Zakim]
... Cooper
16:48:22 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:48:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichaelC
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WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM has ended
17:09:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, marks, janina_, Michael_Cooper, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, SteveF, Matt_King, James_Craig, Cooper
17:12:50 [clown]
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MichaelC: are you still round? If so, I just discovered that the reference section is not in the src/aria-implemention.html. Where is it? I'll keep looking, but if you know, that would speed things up.
17:38:58 [clown]
MichaelC: looks like it's in ".../editors/common/references.html
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