15:53:48 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:53:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-html-a11y-irc
15:53:50 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:53:52 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:53:52 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 53 minutes ago
15:53:53 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:53:53 Date: 12 December 2013
15:54:05 zakim, agenda?
15:54:05 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
15:54:06 4. Canvas 2D context. Next steps… [from chaals]
15:54:06 5. other business [from chaals]
15:54:17 zakim, clear agenda
15:54:17 agenda cleared
15:54:24 Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
15:54:24 Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:54:24 agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:54:27 agenda+ Endof year meeting schedule
15:54:30 agenda+ Canvas 2D Followup
15:54:32 agenda+ Alt Guidance & Next Steps [See Below]
15:54:35 agenda+ ARIA Related Bugs [See Below]
15:54:37 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
15:54:37 agenda+ MSE Response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Dec/0051.html
15:54:40 agenda+ Longdesc: Publish as Extension? Or Seek Re-integration?
15:54:43 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media;
15:54:44 +??P15
15:54:45 agenda+ Bug Triage: Review of Resolved Bugs tracked by TF [see below]
15:54:48 agenda+ HTML 5.1 Objectives http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist
15:54:50 agenda+ Other Business
15:54:53 agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:54:56 agenda+ be done
15:55:20 zakim, ??P15 is me
15:55:20 +janina; got it
15:55:30 zakim, Janina has Janina_Sajka
15:55:31 +Janina_Sajka; got it
15:55:43 zakim, take up item 1
15:55:43 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
16:00:11 +Mark_Sadecki
16:01:47 +[IPcaller]
16:02:00 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
16:02:04 paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:02:12 zakim, what is the code?
16:02:12 the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
16:02:19 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:02:21 chaals has joined #html-a11y
16:02:25 +Suzanne_Taylor
16:02:34 zakim, who is here?
16:02:34 On the phone I see janina, Mark_Sadecki, [IPcaller], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Suzanne_Taylor
16:02:34 janina has Janina_Sajka
16:02:35 On IRC I see chaals, paulc, richardschwerdtfeger, RRSAgent, SteveF, davidb, SuzanneT, MarkS, cabanier, Zakim, janina_, janina, trackbot
16:02:47 zakim, [ip is me
16:02:48 +chaals; got it
16:02:56 +[Microsoft]
16:03:04 zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:03:04 +paulc; got it
16:03:06 scribe: chaals
16:03:30 zakim, who's here?
16:03:30 On the phone I see janina, Mark_Sadecki, chaals, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Suzanne_Taylor, paulc
16:03:32 janina has Janina_Sajka
16:03:32 On IRC I see chaals, paulc, richardschwerdtfeger, RRSAgent, SteveF, davidb, SuzanneT, MarkS, cabanier, Zakim, janina_, janina, trackbot
16:03:41 rrsagent, draft minutes
16:03:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
16:03:45 Thanks, C!
16:03:59 rrsagent, make log public
16:04:09 +[IPcaller]
16:04:29 zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:29 +SteveF; got it
16:04:33 zakim, agenda?
16:04:34 I see 13 items remaining on the agenda:
16:04:34 1. Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from janina]
16:04:34 2. Endof year meeting schedule [from janina]
16:04:34 3. Canvas 2D Followup [from janina]
16:04:34 4. Alt Guidance & Next Steps [from See Below via janina]
16:04:34 5. ARIA Related Bugs [from See Below via janina]
16:04:34 6. MSE Response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Dec/0051.html [from janina]
16:04:35 7. Longdesc: Publish as Extension? Or Seek Re-integration? [from janina]
16:04:35 8. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media; [from janina]
16:04:35 9. Bug Triage: Review of Resolved Bugs tracked by TF [from see below via janina]
16:04:35 10. HTML 5.1 Objectives http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist [from janina]
16:04:36 11. Other Business [from janina]
16:04:38 12. Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from janina]
16:04:38 13. be done [from janina]
16:04:38 +Cynthia_Shelly
16:04:42 Topic: Meeting schedule
16:05:13 JS: We will meet next week, 19 December, but not 26 Dec or 2 Jan. We will resume meetings on 9 Jan.
16:05:21 zakim, close item 1
16:05:21 agendum 1, Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, closed
16:05:23 I see 12 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:05:23 2. Endof year meeting schedule [from janina]
16:05:25 zakim, close item 2
16:05:25 agendum 2, Endof year meeting schedule, closed
16:05:26 I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:05:26 3. Canvas 2D Followup [from janina]
16:05:31 +Adrian_Roselli
16:05:36 topic: Canvas 2D
16:05:44 aardrian has joined #html-a11y
16:06:02 JS: We agreed last week to restart the canvas subteam. Do you plan to use the TF list or the canvas subteam one?
16:06:17 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas#Canvas_Sub-Group_Meetings_.26_Minutes Canvas Meeting information
16:06:42 RS: Have been talking about scrolling and I am writing proposals for it. We have a meeting schedule 6pm Boston time on Monday (2300Z)
16:06:45 What list is being used? is it public-canvas-api@w3.org?
16:07:18 hober has joined #html-a11y
16:07:19 MS: What list was used previously? I had expected to use the TF list.
16:07:30 RS: We have been using mailto:public-canvas-api@w3.org
16:07:41 zakim, take up agendum 3
16:07:41 agendum 3. "Canvas 2D Followup" taken up [from janina]
16:08:09 PC: I think you added people to the list. But not Mark.
16:08:18 Canvas
16:08:22 RS: Correct. Whoops, bad assumption.
16:08:27 For example: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2013OctDec/0030.html
16:09:11 JS: We have another CfC running, on whether we agree to pushing drawCustomFocusRing(element) from level 1.
16:09:34 PC: That CfC closes tomorrow. I guess it would affect at least 2 open bugs. Do we assume passing it will close the bugs?
16:09:41 JS: We would defer the bugs at least.
16:09:50 PC: Right, that was what I meant to ask :)
16:10:10 … they would not affect the Level 1. I recommend we empower the sub-team to do so.
16:10:13 RS: Sounds good.
16:10:40 PC: I want the sub-team to deal with bugs as fast as possible. See no reason to delay that work by going through HTML-WG.
16:10:46 zakim, close this item
16:10:46 agendum 3 closed
16:10:47 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:10:47 4. Alt Guidance & Next Steps [from See Below via janina]
16:10:53 zakim, take up item 4
16:10:53 agendum 4. "Alt Guidance & Next Steps" taken up [from See Below via janina]
16:11:03 Topic: Alt Guidance, next steps
16:11:15 JS: Where are we on the guidance in the HTML spec
16:11:25 … believe TF and WCAG has agreed on what we want.
16:12:16 SF: There are some bugs to be dealt with, but nothing major. There is one bug waiting for feedback from the TF, about logos and what we should say about them.
16:12:46 … My response is there is no formal agreed advice on that. If we are going to define a best practice, WAI needs to have a formal agreed decision we can refer to.
16:13:01 [chaals: +1 to what Steve is thinking]
16:13:36 JS: I wonder if we should create 2 examples, one just being used as a logo, and another one with the same image linking to the home page, with alt varying according to context.
16:13:54 SF: Sure. There is a section on logos - it would be good to comment on that.
16:14:03 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#logos,-insignia,-flags,-or-emblems
16:14:23 JS The first example that comes up should be the simplest case, and I don't think it is at the moment.
16:14:31 s/JS/JS:/
16:14:56 SF: I'll check that. There are things that need to be done, but don't think there is any major work.
16:15:20 q+
16:15:26 … the WHATWG has also added examples, so I have added some more into HTML 5.1 spec. I'll send them to the TF for review.
16:15:59 … I also added an example for image maps, which affects resolution of an outstanding bug. Got some feedback, and going to improve the example and ask for further review.
16:16:23 … (It is about getting alt right for the image and for each area in the map)
16:16:24 Will any of the examples be candidates for being added to HTML5 CR? If so will you file bugs to track those changes?
16:16:28 ack pa
16:16:40 s/Will any/PC: Will any/
16:16:44 SF: Yes.
16:16:52 PC: Will you file bugs to track those changes?
16:16:54 SF: Yes.
16:17:13 JS: Our intent is to get it right for 5.1 and fold that back to 5.0 - what is the process for that?
16:17:59 PC: We need to inform the director about changes we have made in CR. Plan 2014 predicts going back to Last Call, but think we should track changes by raising bugs. If they are marked as editorial, or are examples, that's fine.
16:18:06 SF: Gotcha, can do.
16:18:07 q?
16:19:05 SF: HTML5 techniques document needs work too. Need to edit it to conform in style and substance with HTML5 spec. Remove normative requiremnts, etc. Then it would be ready to publish as a Note.
16:19:19 … Need to think about the future of that document.
16:19:29 JS: Interest in coordinating that with other stuff being done in WAI.
16:19:38 SF: I am happy to let anyone else take it up.
16:19:45 What is the current status of work on HTML a11y APIs (editor: Steve Faulkner, Cynthia Shelly)?
16:19:53 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=REOPENED&component=HTML%20a11y%20APIs%20%28editor%3A%20Steve%20Faulkner%2C%20Cynthia%20Shelly%29&list_id=30415&product=HTML%20WG
16:19:53 q?
16:20:51 PC: In the last 4-5 months the HTML accessibility APIs doc has regressed from 47 − 55 bugs. Is there anything going on with that?
16:21:07 SF: Yes, there is. I am expecting significant change to that.
16:21:23 JS: We expect to move that as a normative doc in 5.1 timeframe.
16:21:47 PC: OK, that's useful to know. Trying to understand who is working on it. If we do heartbeats early in January is there active work happening on it?
16:22:19 JS: Intend to coordinate it with several other docs. There will be a f2f meeting in Toronto 23-5 Jan where we expect to work on it.
16:22:41 … The focus is on ARIA 1.1, HTML 5.1, SVG 2. This document is part of that work.
16:22:49 q+
16:22:50 … So expect more attention to it in that meeting.
16:23:03 CS: This is one of the things at the top of my list to get time for...
16:23:22 ack ri
16:23:44 RS: I'm going to try and put some outlines on the PF wiki to give people a better sense of how these documents fit together.
16:23:46 ack
16:23:48 q?
16:24:25 JS: Changes so far are relatively minor - more change expected later in the year
16:24:32 zakim, next item
16:24:32 agendum 5. "ARIA Related Bugs" taken up [from See Below]
16:24:35 Topic: ARIA
16:25:09 JS; We have a couple of bugs. Dealt with a big one on Monday, there are two more we should be looking at.
16:25:15 s/JS;/JS:/
16:25:26 … bugs 371, 380 - in the agenda.
16:25:30 RS: OK.
16:25:41 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23371
16:25:47 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23380
16:26:08 s/https:/-> https:/
16:26:16 s/https:/-> https:/
16:26:37 SF: We have resolved 371 (??)
16:26:52 s/3371/3371 Bug 23371/
16:27:05 plh has joined #html-a11y
16:27:13 +Plh
16:27:36 SF: We agreed with the comment on 23371 - ARIA hidden cannot override hidden. I have been testing this and it does override in some screen readers, but not others.
16:27:55 … Marco Zehe started trying to sort this out in Mozilla's implementation
16:28:07 s/380/380 Bug 23380/
16:28:28 q?
16:28:29 … asked Alex to provide comments on the bug. There doesn't seem to be consensus on it yet.
16:28:43 RS: Can Alex attend the ARIA call on MOnday?
16:28:50 JS: Let's see if we can get him there.
16:29:04 RS: We opened it on the request of a couple of people who are not actually showing up.
16:30:35 SF: For Bug 23380 I think I made some changes, but I need to have a look and see what I did.
16:32:21 … the questions is what happens when you have e.g. aria:required without a strong native "required" semantic applied (e.g. you just used a marker in the content, not the HTML required attribute.)
16:32:30 … need to check that this doesn't break anything.
16:32:44 RS: An author could code it that way.
16:33:14 SF: The question is whether the spec text reflects that reality properly. If it says you mustn't do things that people really will do, we should change the spec.
16:33:22 … Think it is fine, but it could do with a review.
16:33:45 … don't think this is a bug blocking anything else, just some work to do.
16:34:20 s/Topic: ARIA/Topic: Outstanding ARIA bugs on HTML 5
16:35:14 JS: Anyone got comments re bug 19277?
16:35:42 zakim, next item
16:35:42 agendum 6. "MSE Response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Dec/0051.html" taken up [from janina]
16:35:50 Topic: MSE response
16:36:17 JS: Shortly trying to go to CR. I got suggested language out, and we have a CfC to check that we are happy with that.
16:36:19 q+
16:36:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Dec/0051.html
16:36:44 s/http/-> http/
16:36:47 q+ plh
16:37:06 s/html/html Janina's proposal/
16:37:20 -Cynthia_Shelly
16:37:22 PLH: What is your expectation regarding timing and the outcome?
16:38:17 q+
16:38:37 ack chaals
16:38:37 See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23661#c2
16:38:40 ack plh
16:38:44 ack paul
16:39:26 CMN: Timing is intended to allow us to request an editorial change, as the resolution of our comment.
16:39:39 PC: Why make the comment on MSE not HTML5?
16:40:06 CMN: Because in MSE it explicitly talks about 1 and we want to make it clear there are important accessibility cases for allowing more than 1 video track.
16:40:23 JS: MSE talks about audio tracks, but only 1 track.
16:40:24 q+
16:40:41 PC: The comment notes that HTML5 doesn't define the use case and it should be defined there first.
16:40:50 s/comment/comment on the bug/
16:41:02 See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23661#c2
16:42:12 CMN: Fully agree that this should be done for HTML5 as well, but it seems that there is greater urgency for MSE.
16:42:32 PC: Concerned that there will be pushback from the editors.
16:44:49 CMN: Sure. We have attempted to provide a rational compromise, allowing MSE to go ahead of HTML5 - and not add formal requirements that makes people's lives harder.
16:45:18 PC: I am concerned that the MSE task force will suggest we are targeting the wrong place.
16:45:25 q+
16:45:44 JS: We are only asking for an informative note - there is no request here fora formal requirement.
16:45:59 PC: OK, I'll try to make sure the MSE task force gets that.
16:46:27 q?
16:46:27 ACTION: chaals to raise a bug on HTML5 to clarify that sign language videos are an important accessibility use case for multiple video tracks.
16:46:28 Created ACTION-221 - Raise a bug on html5 to clarify that sign language videos are an important accessibility use case for multiple video tracks. [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-12-19].
16:46:54 PC: How will this get communicated?
16:46:58 +Cynthia_Shelly
16:47:38 -chaals
16:47:56 JS: The A11y TF has started a CfC that will resolve Tuesday (meeting process requirements but shorter than desirable)
16:48:01 +[IPcaller]
16:49:38 zakim, [IP is chaals
16:49:38 +chaals; got it
16:49:51 CMN: I'll communicate the results as soon as our CfC closes, and will add a comment to the bug. I also took an action to raise a parallel issue on HTML5
16:50:29 PC: MSE meets before the CfC closes, and may make decisions without taking teh result in account.
16:50:41 PLH: @@@ 1 implementation
16:50:59 JS: Sure, we need more implementations. But not all for a primary media resource.
16:51:35 q+
16:52:13 s/@@@ 1 implementation/As I as I know, we only have only implementation of mediaGroup, so multi tracks support might be an issue in 2014/
16:52:56 CMN: Sure. There are at least 2 implementations being built in Australia, one by AccessibleOz and one by the Australian Government.
16:53:17 ST: In terms of looking for implementations are you also looking for content examples?
16:53:21 [YES PLEASE]
16:53:53 zakim, next item
16:53:53 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, chaals
16:53:57