IRC log of svg on 2013-12-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:30:11 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:30:11 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/05-svg-irc
20:30:13 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
20:30:13 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #svg
20:30:15 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:30:15 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:30PM already started
20:30:16 [trackbot]: Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:30:16 [trackbot]: Date: 05 December 2013
20:31:00 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
20:31:02 [heycam]: Zakim, [ is me
20:31:03 [Zakim]: +heycam; got it
20:31:07 [heycam]: Zakim, who is on the call?
20:31:07 [Zakim]: On the phone I see krit, laudrain, cabanier, Thomas_Smailus, heycam
20:31:12 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
20:31:14 [birtles_]: birtles_ has joined #svg
20:31:44 [Zakim]: +??P6
20:31:44 [birtles_]: Zakim: [ is me
20:31:53 [birtles_]: Zakim, [ is me
20:31:53 [Zakim]: +birtles_; got it
20:32:11 [stakagi]: Zakim, P6 is me
20:32:11 [Zakim]: sorry, stakagi, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'
20:32:20 [Zakim]: +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:32:30 [stakagi]: Zakim, ??P6 is me
20:32:30 [Zakim]: +stakagi; got it
20:32:51 [Luc]: Luc has joined #svg
20:32:57 [Zakim]: +nikos
20:33:03 [heycam]: Chair: Cameron
20:33:03 [heycam]: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda
20:33:25 [Zakim]: -nikos
20:33:51 [heycam]: Zakim, who is on the call?
20:33:51 [Zakim]: On the phone I see krit, laudrain, cabanier, Thomas_Smailus, heycam, birtles_, stakagi, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:34:28 [Zakim]: +nikos
20:34:58 [cabanier]: scribenick: cabanier
20:35:01 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
20:35:13 [ed]: Zakim, [IP is me
20:35:13 [Zakim]: +ed; got it
20:35:41 [cabanier]: topic: telecon time
20:36:06 [cabanier]: heycam: at the f2f, we discussed this to move it to the other end of the day
20:36:14 [cabanier]: heycam: to make it easier for europeans
20:36:36 [cabanier]: heycam: ... I sent out a survey but I
20:36:47 [cabanier]: heycam: ... am unsure what to do now
20:36:51 [Zakim]: +Tav
20:37:57 [cabanier]: heycam: ...tav can do one hour later but it wouldn't work for Rich
20:38:11 [cabanier]: richardschwerdtfeger: I could show up 1 hour later if needed
20:38:18 [cabanier]: krit: I'm happy with the current time
20:38:42 [cabanier]: heycam: it's not great for Brian
20:39:18 [cabanier]: krit: Chris can do it before 10pm
20:39:32 [cabanier]: heycam: so he could attend 30min with the current time
20:40:36 [cabanier]: heycam: ... other meetings have a different time every second meeting
20:40:43 [cabanier]: heycam: ... should we consider that
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20:41:17 [cabanier]: Tav: I think we should keep it until the end of winter
20:41:35 [cabanier]: birtles: it's OK for me. Takagi is on the phone too
20:42:44 [cabanier]: krit: I would be fine to switch a couple of times a year. doing it more often is too error prone
20:42:55 [cabanier]: richardschwerdtfeger: people will dial in at the wrong time
20:43:24 [cabanier]: heycam: I would like to hear from Doug, Chris and Cyril
20:43:46 [cabanier]: heycam: ... we'll leave it at the current time
20:44:12 [heycam]: Scribe: Cameron
20:44:14 [heycam]: ScribeNick: heycam
20:44:20 [heycam]: Topic: moving Blending and Compositing to CR
20:44:44 [cabanier]: spec: http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/
20:44:55 [heycam]: cabanier: the spec has been in LC for 6 weeks
20:45:01 [heycam]: ... and we had a 4 week comment period
20:45:06 [heycam]: ... haven't heard anything since then, so I think it should be ready to move to CR
20:45:18 [heycam]: ... I'm asking here in the SVG WG, and next week I'll ask in CSS
20:45:26 [heycam]: krit: I have a comment on some changes I see
20:45:34 [heycam]: ... first, do you have a Changes section?
20:45:46 [heycam]: ... since the first LC?
20:45:53 [heycam]: cabanier: I added isolation to the at-risk list
20:46:01 [heycam]: krit: I think that's something we can't do?
20:46:03 [heycam]: cabanier: no, that's according to the process
20:46:08 [heycam]: ... going to CR you list the at risk issues
20:46:15 [heycam]: krit: don't you have to do that before LC?
20:46:21 [heycam]: cabanier: no it's part of going to CR
20:46:28 [heycam]: ... I sent an email a couple of days ago
20:46:32 [cabanier]: link: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#cfi
20:46:37 [heycam]: krit: in the Changes section, you have four items
20:46:52 [heycam]: ... you may want to update that list
20:47:03 [heycam]: cabanier: I'll update it
20:47:23 [heycam]: ... if you look at the link I pasted...
20:47:48 [heycam]: cabanier: [reads out some process text]
20:48:36 [heycam]: heycam: I think Rik is right
20:49:02 [heycam]: krit: were there any changes since the last call?
20:49:03 [heycam]: cabanier: no
20:49:14 [heycam]: krit: you could mention that in the Changes section
20:49:16 [heycam]: cabanier: I'll update it
20:49:56 [heycam]: heycam: no open issues on the spec?
20:50:01 [heycam]: cabanier: all resolved at LC
20:50:14 [heycam]: ... only reason isolation is on the at risk list, is that we have only one implementation so far
20:50:26 [heycam]: ... but I'm confident we'll have another one by the time we exit CR
20:51:46 [heycam]: krit: the W3C logo at the top of the spec is missing
20:51:55 [heycam]: ... perhaps Chris will fix it when you go to publish
20:52:18 [heycam]: krit: anyway, I am fine with publishing CR
20:52:23 [heycam]: cabanier: any objections?
20:52:27 [ed]: minor thing that would be nice to have, a link to the editor's draft at the top
20:52:46 [heycam]: heycam: what's the plan for a test suite?
20:53:03 [heycam]: cabanier: someone from our team is working on a team right now
20:53:08 [heycam]: ... she has more than 100 tests at the moment
20:53:15 [heycam]: ... some people at TtwF also wrote some tests
20:53:27 [heycam]: ... also Blink/Firefox/WebKit implementors writing some tests
20:53:29 [heycam]: ... we have a test plan
20:53:47 [heycam]: Tav: does that include SVG tests?
20:53:51 [heycam]: cabanier: yes, as well as HTML tests
20:53:59 [krit]: http://mire.github.io/css-blending-test-plan-proposal/css-blending-test-plan-proposal.html
20:54:25 [heycam]: krit: we're creating tests according to that plan
20:54:39 [heycam]: cabanier: and the W3C GitHub people have made some progress on tests too
20:54:56 [heycam]: heycam: do you have CR Exit Criteria listed in the spec?
20:56:17 [krit]: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-images/
20:56:44 [thorton]: thorton has joined #svg
20:56:50 [nikos]: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-fonts/#cr-exit-criteria
20:56:58 [krit]: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-images/#exit
20:57:05 [heycam]: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-images/#cr-exit-criteria
20:58:09 [Zakim]: -heycam
20:58:49 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
20:58:50 [heycam]: Zakim, [ is me
20:58:50 [Zakim]: +heycam; got it
20:59:56 [heycam]: heycam: I suggest just copying one of the CSS specs' CR Exit Criteria sections
21:00:53 [ThomasSmailus]: can hear you fine
21:01:28 [heycam]: krit: you shouldn't, because it will get added automatically
21:03:54 [heycam]: RESOLUTION: We will publish Compositing and Blending as CR.
21:04:05 [heycam]: Tav: what's the plan for having all the blending modes into Filters?
21:04:07 [heycam]: cabanier: the missing ones?
21:04:11 [heycam]: krit: we discussed this at the F2F
21:04:20 [heycam]: ... we resolved not to add them in the first level, but to add them in the next level
21:04:25 [heycam]: cabanier: and the Compositing modes are all there already
21:04:49 [heycam]: ... there are four of them, and by combining them you can do src-in, dest-in, etc.
21:04:56 [heycam]: ... except for 'clear', but you can accomplish that in other ways
21:05:12 [heycam]: krit: but yes the blend modes are missing, and will be added in the next level
21:05:21 [heycam]: Tav: I have them already implemented in Inkscape
21:05:27 [heycam]: cabanier: if people want to implement them, they can...
21:05:38 [heycam]: krit: I'd like to ask at the beginning of next year to start the next level of this spec
21:05:43 [heycam]: ... while we're still working on this first level
21:05:50 [heycam]: Tav: yes it'd be good to have the second level spec started
21:06:00 [heycam]: nikos: same with Compositing and Blending 2
21:06:09 [heycam]: Tav: what's going to be in there?
21:06:18 [heycam]: nikos: Compositing for SVG and HTML
21:06:34 [heycam]: heycam: compositing for elements
21:07:38 [heycam]: RESOLUTION: We will begin working on a Level 2 of Compositing and Blending.
21:07:56 [heycam]: Scribe: Rik
21:08:00 [heycam]: ScribeNick: cabanier
21:08:25 [cabanier]: topic: Latest SVG DOM proposals and possible problems
21:08:34 [cabanier]: krit: I would like to ask Brian
21:08:51 [cabanier]: ... I was updating the proposal to always use the HTML namespaece
21:09:09 [cabanier]: ... but Brian brought up that some libraries use the SVG namespace and this would cause a problem
21:09:30 [cabanier]: heycam: if there are script that check that, then yes the behavior would change
21:09:58 [cabanier]: krit: we found one with xref or xlink:xref but since we already resolved on that, it would not be an issue
21:10:11 [cabanier]: heycam: is there a library that does that?
21:10:11 [ed]: s/xref/href
21:10:20 [cabanier]: birtles: jquery SVG does this
21:10:44 [cabanier]: ... it uses the namespace to tell if there's SVG in the document
21:11:02 [cabanier]: ... were you proposing a change to Cameron's proposal?
21:11:22 [cabanier]: krit: I was changing it slightly so we don't have to duplicate all the elements
21:12:20 [cabanier]: birtles: if we were to make SVG elements return in an HTML namespace... (?)
21:12:39 [cabanier]: krit: I'm planning on making that change in blink and webkit
21:13:13 [birtles_]: the example here is script that tests for elem.namespaceURI == SVGNS then sets className.baseVal or className appropriately
21:13:27 [cabanier]: ... we want to duplicate the classname and stylename from SVG into HTML to make it compatible
21:13:45 [cabanier]: heycam: ID as well
21:13:57 [cabanier]: krit: I don't think so. That wouldn't work for WK
21:14:11 [cabanier]: heycam: ah yes.
21:14:27 [cabanier]: ... the classname one works out well since my proposal turns it into a DOMString
21:14:36 [cabanier]: krit: one was a list
21:14:41 [ed]: .classList
21:15:16 [cabanier]: heycam: it makes sense to drop them if we inherit from HTML Element which is my proposal
21:15:30 [cabanier]: ... so are you saying that we should inherit them?
21:15:52 [cabanier]: krit: my proposal is that the new HTML elements still provide the old SVG DOM
21:16:10 [cabanier]: heycam: can you explain again?
21:16:35 [cabanier]: krit: in your proposal the new elements would not have the old DOM. but in my proposal would still expose the old DOM
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21:17:33 [cabanier]: ... for example, the x attribute is a union that's a string or an animatedLength
21:17:46 [cabanier]: heycam: one of the issue is what the initial value is
21:18:02 [Zakim]: +Doug_Schepers
21:18:04 [cabanier]: .... for compatibility, it should be an animatedLength
21:18:19 [cabanier]: ... so it begins as an object
21:18:37 [cabanier]: ... and as soon as you assign a string, it becomes a value
21:19:18 [cabanier]: ... are you most concerned with the code duplication?
21:20:11 [cabanier]: krit: yes. maintenance (2 implementations) and you could have mixtures of elements in different namespaces
21:20:32 [cabanier]: ... this mixture is very confusing for authors
21:20:53 [cabanier]: heycam: it would be nice to not have both existing at once but it might not be feasible
21:21:21 [shepazu]: q+
21:21:23 [cabanier]: ... new APIs for instance, should only be available on the new API
21:21:55 [cabanier]: shepazu: do you think that we need to incentivize people to move to the new model?
21:22:09 [Zakim]: -Tav
21:22:12 [cabanier]: ... I think the majority of the old content will stay as is
21:22:30 [cabanier]: ... for instance the content for the old SVG viewer was never updated
21:22:48 [Zakim]: +Tav
21:23:07 [cabanier]: ... they would only update it for business reasons
21:23:28 [cabanier]: ... so the incentive argument should be part of the dialog
21:23:44 [cabanier]: s/should/should not
21:24:11 [cabanier]: heycam: but I still think that we only need to implement new APIs on the new HTML elements
21:25:04 [cabanier]: shepazu: the incentivizing time is so short, we should not consider it
21:25:10 [cabanier]: heycam: that sounds reasonable
21:25:30 [cabanier]: heycam: do you think we should kill the old interfaces?
21:26:14 [cabanier]: shepazu: I actually think we should just have a new model and not prioritize backwards compatibility
21:26:51 [cabanier]: ... there is a lot of SVG content but most is static
21:26:53 [cabanier]: krit: no
21:27:17 [cabanier]: ... it's mainly dynamic. d3, snap, raphael which are dynamic
21:27:27 [cabanier]: ... which is the majority on the web
21:27:43 [cabanier]: shepazu: those libraries can change
21:27:56 [cabanier]: krit: I looked and snap and raphael don't use the DOM
21:28:59 [cabanier]: shepazu: I think the amount SVG that is dynamic, is very small
21:29:29 [cabanier]: ... if we change it, the documentation would become invalid
21:29:48 [cabanier]: ... there are such quirky things in the DOM that they are not used
21:30:18 [cabanier]: krit: the problem is not the script libraries but that authors don't update their versions
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21:31:08 [cabanier]: shepazu: I don't think it realistic to say that browser will take out SVG when we ship SVG 2
21:31:17 [cabanier]: ... they will probably phase it out
21:31:31 [cabanier]: ... we should plan that, but not specify it
21:31:42 [cabanier]: ???: what is dynamic SVG?
21:31:50 [cabanier]: shepazu: it's SVG that uses script
21:32:01 [heycam]: s/???/Thomas/
21:33:04 [cabanier]: ThomasSmailus: at Boeing we're switching over to SVG and for us it is critical that things don't change around
21:33:33 [cabanier]: ... if it changes soon, we can probably adjust
21:33:57 [cabanier]: shepazu: most dynamic script would probably not be affected
21:34:17 [cabanier]: ... creating elements for instance, we have to be very careful with namespace
21:34:46 [cabanier]: ... changing attributes (createElement, setAttribute) would not be affected
21:35:00 [cabanier]: heycam: old the core DOM methods will stay the same
21:35:39 [cabanier]: ... the question is how much of the SVG specific API that you are using. It would be good to know if you're using those
21:36:36 [cabanier]: ThomasSmailus: we're still at a stage where we can adjust. It probably won't affect us but there are probably large companies that are in the same boat as us
21:36:42 [krit]: Checked: d3 uses baseVal for special transform calculations
21:36:50 [krit]: no animVal
21:37:13 [cabanier]: shepazu: yes. it might be useful if we say what things are going to change/drop
21:37:14 [ed]: I'm curious re feature-detection libs, e.g if used for detecting svg 1.1 support, but only as a toggle for loading static svg content
21:37:31 [cabanier]: Tav: and example of before and after
21:37:54 [cabanier]: shepazu: yes. have an analogue of what things used to look like
21:38:00 [Luc]: sorry, I have to quit
21:38:11 [Zakim]: -laudrain
21:38:25 [cabanier]: shepazu: why don't we just get rid of it?
21:39:05 [cabanier]: heycam: how easily can we support the old stuff in the new way? My proposal keeps the old implementation alive
21:39:26 [cabanier]: shepazu: having the old interface is a burden on implementations and developers
21:39:51 [cabanier]: ... I'm willing to be proven wrong. we are not like HTML where we have to support it
21:40:03 [cabanier]: ... since there's so little content
21:40:30 [cabanier]: ... maybe we can do a web search for these APIs
21:40:46 [cabanier]: heycam: we discussed this during the F2f
21:41:20 [cabanier]: krit: the blink team tried it but it failed. now they don't have time to do it.
21:41:46 [shepazu]: (CommonCrawl: open repo for web crawl data http://commoncrawl.org/ )
21:42:05 [cabanier]: heycam: I will reply on the mailing list and show how the new DOM will look like compared to the old one
21:42:08 [Zakim]: -Thomas_Smailus
21:42:09 [Zakim]: -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:42:09 [Zakim]: -nikos
21:42:11 [Zakim]: -heycam
21:42:12 [Zakim]: -ed
21:42:12 [Zakim]: -cabanier
21:42:13 [Zakim]: -Doug_Schepers
21:42:13 [Zakim]: -birtles_
21:42:14 [Zakim]: -Tav
21:42:16 [Zakim]: -krit
21:42:17 [Zakim]: -stakagi
21:42:19 [Zakim]: GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:30PM has ended
21:42:19 [Zakim]: Attendees were krit, laudrain, cabanier, Thomas_Smailus, [IPcaller], heycam, birtles_, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, stakagi, nikos, ed, Tav, Doug_Schepers
21:42:38 [cabanier]: heycam: can you send out the minutes?
21:42:43 [heycam]: cabanier, ok
21:42:49 [heycam]: RRSAgent, make minutes
21:42:50 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/05-svg-minutes.html heycam
21:48:21 [cabanier]: http://dotnetdotcom.org/
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