IRC log of i18n on 2013-12-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:41:16 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
15:41:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:41:21 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
15:41:27 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
15:41:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:41:31 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
15:41:31 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
15:41:32 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
15:41:32 [trackbot]
Date: 05 December 2013
15:41:45 [aphillip]
15:41:50 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
15:41:53 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
15:41:57 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
15:42:07 [aphillip]
agenda+ RADAR
15:42:18 [aphillip]
agenda+ CSS Text
15:42:24 [aphillip]
agenda+ CSS Syntax
15:42:28 [aphillip]
agenda+ CharmodNorm
15:42:34 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:42:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:57:34 [David]
David has joined #i18n
16:00:32 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard please
16:00:32 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
16:00:33 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
16:00:35 [Zakim]
16:00:48 [Zakim]
16:00:49 [Zakim]
16:00:51 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
16:00:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Richard, David_Clarke, aphillip
16:00:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see David, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, koji, fsasaki, r12a, trackbot
16:01:03 [aphillip]
16:01:32 [Zakim]
16:01:59 [Zakim]
16:02:12 [koji]
zakim, [ipcaller] is me
16:02:12 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:02:32 [JcK]
JcK has joined #i18n
16:03:22 [Zakim]
16:03:38 [aphillip]
zakim, who is noisy?
16:03:49 [Zakim]
aphillip, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Clarke (28%)
16:04:28 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
16:04:30 [aphillip]
16:04:33 [matial]
matial has joined #i18n
16:04:51 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
16:04:58 [aphillip]
16:05:53 [Zakim]
16:06:03 [matial]
zakim, ??P3 is me
16:06:03 [Zakim]
+matial; got it
16:06:04 [aphillip]
action-252: done but will ping again as got no answer
16:06:04 [trackbot]
Notes added to action-252 Ping dita folks about contacting html5 about ruby progress.
16:07:11 [aphillip]
close action-264
16:07:11 [trackbot]
Closed action-264.
16:07:17 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
16:07:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:08:31 [aphillip]
richard: multilingual web...
16:08:59 [aphillip]
felix: (mumbles something indistinct)
16:09:27 [aphillip]
felix: hoping that there will be another MLWeb Workshop
16:09:59 [fsasaki]
16:10:18 [aphillip]
felix: will try to continue workshops
16:10:29 [aphillip]
... and also promote Linked Open Data
16:10:40 [aphillip]
... and a new WG connected to it
16:11:07 [aphillip]
richard: also bringing inside W3C
16:11:33 [aphillip]
... will notice that there is an MLWeb logo on /International home page
16:11:39 [aphillip]
... (activity home page)
16:12:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:12:53 [aphillip]
16:13:00 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 1
16:13:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "RADAR" taken up [from aphillip]
16:13:08 [aphillip]
16:14:17 [aphillip]
action: addison: ping CSS about Shapes issues
16:14:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-272 - Ping css about shapes issues [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-12-12].
16:15:01 [aphillip]
JcK: URNbis not quite ready
16:15:13 [aphillip]
... currently passing bottlenecks around
16:15:29 [aphillip]
... could happen quickly if things work out
16:16:11 [aphillip]
addison: need shepherds for HRTime2 and Shapes
16:16:32 [aphillip]
... will shepherd shapes
16:16:44 [aphillip]
16:16:59 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 2
16:16:59 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "CSS Text" taken up [from aphillip]
16:17:10 [aphillip]
16:17:38 [aphillip]
JcK: about 1/3 through
16:18:42 [aphillip]
... particularly concerned about character/code point/grapheme/etc. terminology
16:18:53 [aphillip]
... also about case distinctions
16:19:37 [aphillip]
addison: we are quite late with comments, would like to start feeding them comments back
16:20:37 [aphillip]
richard: also reviewing but still in paper mode
16:20:53 [aphillip]
... raise tracker comments and then review via email?
16:21:36 [aphillip]
action: addison: update CSS on our ETA for CSS Text comments
16:21:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-273 - Update css on our eta for css text comments [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-12-12].
16:22:49 [aphillip]
quote: At risk features that concern me: text-justify and the full-width value of text-transform.
16:23:53 [aphillip]
Text-align "start end" keyword (*not* to be confused with "start" and "end" keywords) is at risk, but does not represent a break with bidi support I think.
16:26:29 [aphillip]
koji: at risk features need implementers and that's the reason for being at risk
16:28:01 [aphillip]
1. Section 1.3: The description of "grapheme cluster" feels abbreviated and terse. Of particular concern to me is this sentence: -- The UA may further tailor the definition as required by typographical tradition. -- I think this could be clearer, perhaps by saying: -- The UA may tailor grapheme cluster boundaries as required by typographical tradition or based on additional linguistic requirements. --
16:29:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:29:23 [r12a]
16:29:39 [aphillip]
JcK: not completely clear, even with this edit?
16:29:57 [aphillip]
... "completely optional if you feel you need to ignore it"
16:30:02 [aphillip]
ack r12a
16:30:06 [fsasaki]
[apologies, have to leave now, talk to you next week or before]
16:30:16 [Zakim]
16:30:24 [aphillip]
richard: wondering if what is meant here is: use grapheme clusters where defined
16:30:38 [aphillip]
... but certain languages where need to extend
16:31:32 [aphillip]
addison: UTR talks about that
16:32:09 [aphillip]
JcK: strange example of classic Mayan
16:33:15 [aphillip]
16:33:56 [aphillip]
richard: needs the word "further" or "there are units bigger than grapheme clusters"
16:34:05 [aphillip]
addison: that makes sense
16:34:49 [aphillip]
"The UA may extend grapheme cluster boundaries as required by typographical tradition (see [example needed]).
16:36:17 [aphillip]
richard: ".... based on language requirements"?
16:36:45 [aphillip]
addison: problem is there is no way to markup "typographic tradition", just relies on language markup
16:37:31 [r12a]
16:37:55 [aphillip]
quote: Within this specification, the ambiguous term character is used as a friendlier synonym for grapheme cluster. See Characters and Properties for how to determine the Unicode properties of a character.
16:37:55 [aphillip]
ack r12a
16:38:16 [aphillip]
richard: let's ask why redefinition
16:38:34 [aphillip]
... tend to think it's a bad idea
16:39:39 [JcK]
16:39:58 [aphillip]
koji: not clear where preference came from, good to get feedback from I18N
16:40:11 [aphillip]
ack JcK
16:40:52 [aphillip]
JcK; already ranted a bit: pretty certain is a Bad Idea as very confusing
16:41:18 [aphillip]
... if "every time we say 'character' read as 'grapheme cluster'" would be less unhappy, but not the case
16:41:34 [aphillip]
koji: concern is not about use of term, but about inconsistency
16:41:36 [aphillip]
16:41:41 [aphillip]
richard: probably both
16:43:13 [aphillip]
addison: understand that we are more "in tune" with Unicode terminology than most spec users but in this case the need is strong for both terms as distinct
16:43:36 [aphillip]
richard: add specific cases to comment
16:43:48 [aphillip]
3. Section 2.1: There is no corresponding "half-width" transformation.
16:44:16 [aphillip]
koji: intentional
16:44:36 [aphillip]
... problem is with katakana
16:44:48 [aphillip]
... but then name not consistent if we make an exception
16:44:50 [JcK]
16:44:57 [aphillip]
ack JcK
16:45:13 [aphillip]
JcK: unfortunately same problem to the case transforms
16:46:27 [aphillip]
probably dropping this one
16:46:34 [aphillip]
4. Section 2.1: Example 3 discusses Turkish upper and lower case mappings, which illustrates that the 'capitalize', 'uppercase', and 'lowercase'. More specificity about the language tailoring is wanted here. Also a discussion of case mapping
16:47:56 [aphillip]
Jck: case mapping does affect the underlying content in some languages
16:48:02 [aphillip]
... just a bit muddled here
16:48:23 [aphillip]
... not meaningful without language identification
16:48:44 [aphillip]
... why no 'titlecase' instad of 'capitalize'?
16:48:51 [aphillip]
... why UA dependent?
16:49:11 [aphillip]
addison: UAs implement casing differently
16:49:20 [aphillip]
koji: what do you suggest?
16:50:16 [aphillip]
as defined in Default Case Algorithm section
16:51:36 [aphillip]
16:51:36 [aphillip]
If (and only if) the content language of the element is, according to the rules of the document language, known, then any appropriate language-specific rules must be applied as well. These minimally include, but are not limited to, the language-specific rules in Unicode's SpecialCasing.txt.
16:51:38 [aphillip]
16:52:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:54:26 [aphillip]
richard: add proposal to have informative link to CLDR if that's what you think should happen
16:55:06 [aphillip]
7. Section 6.1: The Arabic hyphenation shaping example isn't clear. The segments should be shown separately?
16:55:55 [aphillip]
For example, if the word “نوشتنن” were hyphenated, it would appear as “ﻧﻮﺷ-ﺘﻦ” not as “ﻧﻮﺵ-ﺗﻦ”.
16:56:12 [aphillip]
16:58:12 [aphillip]
9. Section 7.3: The tasmeem example of "cursively justified" Arabic text may not be clear to outside observers unfamiliar with kashida. In addition, no mention is made of kashida or the kashida/tatweel character. This is probably called for here.
16:59:42 [aphillip]
koji: john daggett again having kashida unless clearly defined
17:00:05 [aphillip]
richard: does he mean "defineding the rules for adding baseline extension characters" or just "explaining what it is"?
17:00:19 [aphillip]
koji: a developer who doesn't know arabic can implement
17:01:06 [aphillip]
richard: there are other cases where the spec is hand-wavy like this, would need a spec on its own to well-define kashida rules
17:02:50 [aphillip]
koji: msft had low and high kashida or something like that
17:03:19 [aphillip]
richard: there was or was not a kashida property value?
17:03:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
17:04:12 [koji]
17:04:15 [aphillip]
koji: yes, that's correct
17:04:43 [aphillip]
‘kashida’ Justification primarily stretches cursive scripts through the use of kashida or other calligraphic elongation. This value is optional for conformance to CSS3 Text. (UAs that do not support cursive elongation must treat the value as invalid.)
17:07:24 [aphillip]
addison: need a complete definition of kashida?
17:07:44 [aphillip]
.. and "ALREQ" is needed :-(
17:12:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
17:12:25 [Zakim]
17:14:15 [aphillip]
richard: next point you made is important too: is kashida off when you say 'inter-word'? how about 'distribute' (sounds like you turn it on, actually)?
17:15:02 [aphillip]
addison: expect inter-word to turn off
17:15:08 [aphillip]
.. but not sure about distribute
17:15:44 [matial]
Yes, I have to leave.
17:16:10 [Zakim]
17:16:14 [aphillip]
11. Section 8.2: The section on "tracking" ('letter-spacing') should probably reiterate that tracking does not break cursive/ligating scripts like Arabic. Mention of the "bar" in scripts such as Devanagari is also probably warranted.
17:17:35 [aphillip]
17:18:54 [aphillip]
richard: kashida also used for emphasis and not evenly between all letters
17:19:29 [aphillip]
richard: also might be appropriate in 'justify' section
17:20:11 [aphillip]
addison: don't know about bar in Devanagari
17:20:44 [aphillip]
action: richard: ask Indic task force about handling of tracking in CSSText, pariticulary whether the bar "breaks" in scripts that use one
17:20:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-274 - Ask indic task force about handling of tracking in csstext, pariticulary whether the bar "breaks" in scripts that use one [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-12-12].
17:21:15 [aphillip]
richard: have a whole ton of tests for this document (line breaking, hyph, etc.)
17:21:24 [aphillip]
... so when you get to CR, don't reinvent it, okay?
17:21:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
17:22:02 [r12a]
17:22:08 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
17:22:38 [r12a]
also white-space tests below and some more hyphenation
17:22:52 [Zakim]
17:22:54 [Zakim]
17:23:01 [r12a]
zakim, drop richard
17:23:01 [Zakim]
Richard is being disconnected
17:23:02 [Zakim]
17:23:06 [aphillip]
chair: HOMEWORK: CSS3 Text and Syntax
17:23:11 [Zakim]
17:23:12 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
17:23:12 [Zakim]
Attendees were Richard, David_Clarke, aphillip, fsasaki, koji, JcK, matial
17:23:12 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:23:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
17:23:25 [aphillip]
zakim, bye
17:23:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
17:23:29 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:23:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
17:24:28 [aphillip]
rrsagent, bye
17:24:28 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
17:24:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: ping CSS about Shapes issues [1]
17:24:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:24:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: update CSS on our ETA for CSS Text comments [2]
17:24:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:24:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: richard: ask Indic task force about handling of tracking in CSSText, pariticulary whether the bar "breaks" in scripts that use one [3]
17:24:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in