00:53:31 RRSAgent has joined #webmob 00:53:31 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-webmob-irc 00:53:36 Zakim has joined #webmob 01:02:58 Zakim: this is Web and Mobile Interest Group at TPAC 01:03:21 razybon has joined #webmob 01:05:21 kotakagi has joined #webmob 01:09:34 dennisdmac has joined #webmob 01:16:25 Marcus_Altman has joined #webmob 01:16:43 Takahiro has joined #webmob 01:16:44 marcosc has joined #webmob 01:17:01 marcosc_ has joined #webmob 01:17:06 dopi has joined #webmob 01:19:24 Ruinan has joined #webmob 01:19:32 kawada has joined #webmob 01:19:40 nsakai has joined #webmob 01:19:42 Ig_Ibert_Bittencourt has joined #webmob 01:27:13 jjj has joined #webmob 01:30:25 has already started 01:30:39 Sorry. Natasha is a chair as well as a scriber:-) 01:32:34 JonathanJ has joined #webmob 01:32:42 Present+ Jonathan_Jeon 01:33:31 ito has joined #webmob 01:34:03 Intro presented by Natasha 01:34:47 http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work 01:37:06 http://www.w3.org/wiki/InternetRelayChat 01:37:33 http://www.w3.org/2008/04/scribe 01:38:35 byungjung has joined #webmob 01:43:55 JonathanJ has joined #webmob 01:44:13 jjj has joined #webmob 01:44:34 q? 01:47:25 mounir_ has joined #webmob 01:47:31 action on Natasha to speak to marcos re having no teleconfs 01:47:31 Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at . 01:47:37 action Natasha to speak to marcos re having no teleconfs 01:47:37 Created ACTION-76 - Speak to marcos re having no teleconfs [on Natasha Rooney - due 2013-11-21]. 01:49:27 q? 01:49:29 marcosc has joined #webmob 01:49:55 marcosc_ has joined #webmob 01:50:06 ScribeNick: mounir_ 01:50:21 Topic: First round of focus topics 01:50:52 schuki: we are going to discuss a few topics that we discussed before because we believe they are important for the web and mobile 01:51:02 droh_ has joined #webmob 01:51:03 skim13 has joined #webmob 01:51:14 ... we will discuss the history of these topics, the issues that exists in current proposals/implementations and new work/potential issues 01:51:30 schuki: we want to make sure we get some outcome from this work 01:51:58 schuki: we will have some guest speakers for some topics 01:52:07 ... lets begin with the first topic, which is offline 01:52:15 schuki: it has been a hot topic here at tpac 01:52:27 ... if anybody has extra insights, please feel free to raise your hands 01:52:45 Scribe: mounir_ 01:53:07 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:53:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-webmob-minutes.html mounir_ 01:53:22 schuki: 01:53:39 schuki: 01:54:15 schuki: regarding the issues, appcache is hard to use, especially for large applications 01:54:39 ... appcache has a fallback system when there is no network 01:54:43 ... this method is assumed to be broken 01:54:58 ... people expect to use the cache first and download in the background 01:55:05 ... this creates strange issues 01:55:19 schuki: lot of times with appcache, you have to declare things in the server 01:55:25 ... which is a bit hairy sometimes 01:56:59 schuki: local storage seems robust enough but can only use strings 01:57:09 mounir_: the main issue is that it is actually doing sync operations 01:57:26 schuki: regarding IndexedDB, the main problem is the learning curve 01:58:24 schuki: I will go to the new proposals to solve offline 01:58:37 schuki: the first one is Service Worker, proposed by Alex, from Google 01:59:38 schuki: 02:00:47 schuki: service worker is more robust that appcache 02:01:00 ... it is solving the issues so far 02:02:26 q? 02:03:52 schuki: my personal opinion is that we should go and implement that solution 02:04:01 ... and I would encourage every one to follow the repo 02:04:11 schuki: so, how can WebMob help with that? 02:04:50 ... we could write a testing demo app 02:05:08 schuki: any question or comment to the offline conversation? 02:07:08 schuki: we will break for 45 minutes because the next topic involves Bryan Sullivan and he is not here yet 02:07:13 schuki: thank you everyone 02:15:23 nsakai has joined #webmob 02:20:49 marcosc has joined #webmob 02:20:58 kotakagi has joined #webmob 02:21:14 marcosc_ has joined #webmob 02:21:40 hayato____ has joined #webmob 02:28:15 nsakai_ has joined #webmob 02:30:05 nsakai has joined #webmob 02:44:13 nsakai_ has joined #webmob 02:49:47 taocai has joined #webmob 02:50:34 topic: Update on Coremob Report 02:50:48 skim13 has joined #webmob 02:52:09 marcosc has joined #webmob 02:53:02 marcosc_ has joined #webmob 02:55:24 skim13 has joined #webmob 02:56:31 byungjung has joined #webmob 03:06:11 dka has joined #webmob 03:06:32 kawada has joined #webmob 03:09:28 Scribe: Dan 03:09:35 present+ Dan 03:09:38 q? 03:09:43 agenda? 03:09:53 ScribeNick: dka 03:10:36 dom has joined #webmob 03:10:47 Topic: Update on Coremob Report 03:11:03 NR: We are evolution of the CoreMob group. 03:11:17 http://coremob.github.io/coremob-2012/FR-coremob-20130131.html 03:11:43 NR: [presents the CoreMob report] 03:11:46 myakura has joined #webmob 03:13:48 Ig_Ibert_Bittencourt has joined #webmob 03:14:34 ito has joined #webmob 03:16:34 mete has joined #webmob 03:16:50 NR: Since the report was published, geolocation and video are "interoperable". 03:17:02 dan: what does that mean? can we wait until marcus comes online to clarify? 03:17:32 koichi: [speaking of yesterday's geolocation session] 03:17:58 present+ koichi takagi (KDDI) 03:18:18 http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/session-geolocation#Notes 03:18:40 koichi: [making reference to yesterday's TPAC breakout on geolocation - and nest steps for geo API] 03:19:07 NR: I will add this as a note to the github. 03:20:45 NR: Marcus has raised a number of issues associated with the coremob report. He's flagged a few of them as needing review - meaning priority is higher. This give us the opportunity to make further comments. 03:21:11 https://github.com/w3c-webmob/coremob-report 03:21:46 http://coremob.github.io/coremob-2012/FR-coremob-20130131.html 03:21:47 mounir_ has joined #webmob 03:21:56 Present+ Mounir_Lamouri 03:22:24 NR: is this report applicable to what we do, or should we create something else? 03:23:58 marcosc has joined #webmob 03:24:05 dka: I think we should not issue a new report, but rather we should move forward on the basis of this report. Possibly we should consider the issues raised and issue a new version. 03:24:20 NR: [more description of CoreMob report] 03:24:34 marcosc_ has joined #webmob 03:25:34 Takahiro has joined #webmob 03:27:31 taocai has joined #webmob 03:29:27 NR: [ presenting www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/ ] 03:30:12 NR: this is a way to keep up to date with the specifications... 03:30:57 NR: [going through some additional comments] 03:31:01 q? 03:31:38 http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/TPAC_Face-to-Face 03:31:52 http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/TPAC_Face-to-Face_Thursday#10:45_Update_on_Coremob_Report_.28Natasha.29 03:32:27 tobie has joined #webmob 03:32:53 nkic_ has joined #webmob 03:33:42 3 options to move forward: 03:33:47 1. continue to build the report 03:33:54 kotakagi has joined #webmob 03:34:07 2. leave the report as it is and work on a new coremob 2013 / 2014 doc 03:34:12 nkic has joined #webmob 03:34:13 q+ 03:34:21 3. leave the report as it is and work on www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/ 03:34:30 ack tobie 03:34:35 ack tobie 03:35:35 tobie: having edited coremob report. There is some overlap between coremob report and Dom's report (mobile web app state). One reason I started it was to have the info in one place on status of specs and implementations that we care about for mobile. 03:36:31 ... I don't think publishing a document is the best thing - rather something with a shorter lifespan. Maybe something slightly different - a central place that people can look at - what's missing, what's the state and what should people look at? I would try to merge these two documents. 03:36:32 +1 03:36:48 q+ 03:37:03 NR: A document is pretty static... 03:37:53 tobie: another point - I've been building infrastructure to make a document be a more live doc - there is info on the state of specs available via an API - a document could have fresh data on the state of certain APIs and so be up to date all the time. 03:37:59 NR: that would be awesome. 03:38:01 +1 03:38:13 NR: any suggestions on keeping up to date with implementations? 03:39:36 tobie: this is related to running tests - I am leading this effort to have a system to make it easy to run the test suites people are building for each stack and make it easy for mobile industry to run these tests internally, in a single place, with an API - which could be build upon to show what the "state of the union" is - we need resources to continue to this work. 03:40:50 dka: we should wait for dom to make a decision on this 03:41:59 Munir: if you go to chromestatus.com you have a huge list of features you can reference in chrome. 03:42:11 … also see if there are info from the current vendors available we could leverage. 03:42:22 http://www.chromestatus.com/features 03:42:42 NR: we could pull this kind of thing into automatically update the document that we choose... 03:43:32 dka: what does it mean to have a live document? 03:43:39 s/Munir/Mounir/ 03:43:54 NR: I'd like to choose one or the other - my preference would be to continue with the webapp state document. 03:44:39 NR: we can manually add to it in the short term, incorporate material from other sources with the goal having it be completely automated. 03:45:47 Marcus_Altman_ has joined #webmob 03:46:11 action Natasha to check coremob and webappstate doc include the same spec 03:46:11 Created ACTION-77 - Check coremob and webappstate doc include the same spec [on Natasha Rooney - due 2013-11-21]. 03:46:16 dka: do we update the coremob doc to point to mobile web app state? and does mobile web app state contain all the same specs as coremob? 03:46:28 action natasha to check with dom whether we can discontinue coremob and just work on webappstate 03:46:29 Created ACTION-78 - Check with dom whether we can discontinue coremob and just work on webappstate [on Natasha Rooney - due 2013-11-21]. 03:47:31 action natasha to check status of chromestatus + testing effort and see if we can add apis to manage the webappstate document automatically (long term goal) 03:47:31 Created ACTION-79 - Check status of chromestatus + testing effort and see if we can add apis to manage the webappstate document automatically (long term goal) [on Natasha Rooney - due 2013-11-21]. 03:48:00 Ig_Ibert_Bittencourt has joined #webmob 03:48:07 NR: if people are interested in working on webapp state document or coremob doc - then please let us know. 03:49:47 kimwoonyoung has joined #webmob 03:51:03 dka: how are we going to continue the work of coremob? e.g. for new use cases, new features, new specs, etc... 03:51:49 NR: we are going to work on focus topics, e.g. offline, spec is service worker, service worker spec will be included into this document... 03:52:38 dka: where will we document the use cases that come out of the focus topics? 03:52:58 NR: there is no need to work on use cases or requirements for these focus topics... 03:55:11 NR: we can continue to write scenarios such as in the coremob document - we can say "we thing web apps should be able to do XYZ in the future"... but we need people to write those scenarios down. 03:55:28 NR: the only way it will happen with people being busy is if its a regular recurring action / topic. 03:55:50 NR: sometimes the answer might be we don't have any new ones - or new ones may arise, e.g. with augmented reality. 03:55:53 marcosc has joined #webmob 03:56:18 marcosc has joined #webmob 03:57:33 dka: does that document become a document of this working group? 03:57:50 Ig_Ibert__ has joined #webmob 03:58:10 NR: in some cases we don't need to create requirements - e.g. offline where they already have use cases and requirements. We need to find out what is missing and then put it in. 03:58:59 NR: the wiki describes the group in better detail. We can add use cases and requirements. 03:59:18 action Natasha to add to DELIVERABLES: adding use cases / requirements section to coremob / mobilewebapp state document and add use cases / requirements to regular meetings 03:59:18 Created ACTION-80 - Add to deliverables: adding use cases / requirements section to coremob / mobilewebapp state document and add use cases / requirements to regular meetings [on Natasha Rooney - due 2013-11-21]. 03:59:54 NR: I'm going to add "the document" to our deliverables and add use cases and requirements to our regular meetings - a regular deliverable for us. 04:00:49 q+ 04:02:46 dka: cordova is starting to produce stats about what apis apps produced with cordova actually use. 04:03:38 kotakagi has joined #webmob 04:04:30 tobie: we worked on this at Facebook 2 years ago - it's a good exercise [analyzing top 100 apps]. I saw work on the mailing list that did some not manual work - automated analysis of android APIs. the output of that data is wrong, and brings the focus on the wrong feature set. Intrepreting the data is the tricky thing. The permissioning model of android is different from android - a lot of the key APIs that came out of that discussion don't transpose to the Web. 04:04:51 tobie: you need to do some manual work. 04:06:57 dka: I don't disagree. 04:07:53 NR: we will talk about that in closing the gap with dom tomorrow as well. 04:07:56 Phonegap data looks like a great source of information 04:07:58 NR: Any other comments? 04:08:05 CP: did anyone look at business models? 04:08:34 NR: We want to do that - it's key to organizations who are members - especially from operators. 04:08:51 NR: business models are important - use cases might dip into that. 04:08:53 q+ on biz models 04:09:06 NR: we could have business use cases. 04:09:33 CP: I was more thinking that native apps have business models - they are sold or have something sold in them [in-app]. 04:10:06 NR: One of the focus topics is on payments - which is related. It's different with apps - it's a "closing the gap" topic. There is an easy way for a native app developer to [monetize]. 04:10:46 Munir: there is business on the web and also you can sell webapps... 04:11:08 Munir: i don't feel there is much technical solution / [discussion] we need to have there... 04:11:24 tobie: when we started the coremob CG - we were looking at 3 aspects. 04:11:30 ... one is closing the gap 04:11:49 ... two is the business model. You need to have developers who are making money. 04:12:06 ... the last is distribution - app markets, search, social channels... 04:13:06 ... making money building web applications is a problem - it is solved to some extent through ads and through payments. One thing that hasn't been addressed yet is to think about carrier billing - these apps are running on devices that are connected to users' phone bills? 04:13:26 munir: is carrier billing something that people use out of developing countries. 04:17:30 dka: Telefónica has direct-to-bill payments rolled out with Microsoft and Google (app markets) in Spain and for Microsoft app market in the UK. It is effective when it can be done. There are challenging regulatory and integration issues which have held them back. 04:18:36 NR: I like the idea. Dave Ragget will come talk about web payments tomorrow. 04:18:55 dka: I am co-chairing the upcoming workshop on web payments happening in March - a core part of this will be mobile payments. 04:19:29 NR: one thing we could do in this IG is to work on use cases and requirements. 04:20:09 CP: not everyone is looking for financial payment - focusing on payment might be limiting. 04:20:11 NR: examples? 04:20:22 CP: social reach, branding outreach, barter... 04:20:41 CP: other economies - 04:20:49 q+ 04:21:10 CP: the Web naturally reaches more people than native platforms... 04:21:17 s/CP/NR/ 04:21:42 NR: lots more web users - I will find the research. 04:22:07 ack tobie 04:22:07 tobie, you wanted to comment on biz models and to 04:22:48 tobie: interesting - about other incentives - but that said it would be good for this group to answer the question of precisely what part of the ecosystems are needed for there to be a turning point where mobile web is good enough to compete with native. 04:23:08 ... what's missing is the quality applications and premium content on mobile which is not accessible on the web right now. 04:24:56 q+ 04:25:06 q+ on mobile strategies 04:25:42 ack tobie 04:25:42 tobie, you wanted to comment on mobile strategies 04:26:22 dka: star trek example - star trek poster on the underground says "download our app" at the bottom - there is a reason they put that there to engage the end user to go to the cinema to watch a movie - what's stopping them from putting "go to our web site"? 04:27:31 tobie: use case for looking up flight times in genevva - couldn't access landing times for planes from an iPhone... so what was wrong with the airport? after that, I saw "gvapp" - the airport's mobile strategy is "let's have an IOS app and an android App". 04:27:59 q+ 04:28:44 ... an international traveler going to download an app just to get airport info? doesn't make sense. Companies are trying to have a mobile strategy and they hire someone to build apps - and the only thing they know because it's cool and trendy is IOS and Android. But for a ton of use cases which would be better served by the web - this a key item to discuss. We need a strategy to address this. 04:28:46 +1 04:28:59 NR: this will get taken up as closing the gap. 04:29:20 nsakai has joined #webmob 04:29:46 tobie: it's not a technological problem - it's educating developers and also addressing the business-level people - giving the message out that the web solves a bunch of use cases better than native. 04:30:14 tobie: having an add with "download this app to engage" is a daft strategy, 04:30:36 tobie: it's hurting businesses - there is a strong business case to be made for the web in lots of scenarios. 04:31:27 Munir: from a tech standpoint we are mostly ready - but people are not used to using web apps on the mobile - it's a mind-set issue. If you go back a couple of years ago, it was "IOS app" now it's "android and IOS" so hopefully it will change... 04:32:24 jjj has joined #webmob 04:32:34 dka: as the number of platforms increase will the interoperability story of the web start to resonate more? 04:32:53 Munir: do we know how much cordova is used - e.g. in the android app stores? 04:33:28 tobie: I believe it is something like 4% - so 1000s of apps. 04:33:59 action Natasha to add 'education to devs on how the web solves your app use cases' to things we want to work on, as maybe the gap in development is due to education as well as other factors 04:33:59 Created ACTION-81 - Add 'education to devs on how the web solves your app use cases' to things we want to work on, as maybe the gap in development is due to education as well as other factors [on Natasha Rooney - due 2013-11-21]. 04:34:33 tobie: still today a lot of content in the native Facebook app is HTML5 - one of the reason we expanded the native element was the performance issue. 04:34:45 marcosc has joined #webmob 04:34:47 tobie: I will dive deeper into this - e.g. scrolling performance - later today. 04:35:32 tobie: the technological gap needs to be addressed. Companies that have enough resources are handling the technical challenge by going native and handling the multiple code bases problem by keeping as much code as possible as html5. 04:35:46 kotakagi_ has joined #webmob 04:36:35 marcosc_ has joined #webmob 04:37:32 tobie: not addressing the cross-operating system thing that much. what they are addressing is that it's difficult to ship a new application. On the web you ship the code and agile companies are shipping code to production many times a day - you can't do that with native. Outside of this particular issue which is applications that have requirements to be native - there are a lot of use cases that would be better for everyone if they were a [expletive deleted] web site. 04:37:47 s/Munir/Mounir/ 04:37:58 NR: I've added education as an action. 04:38:10 tobie: also education to c-types; to business guys. 04:39:23 NR: lunch now 04:39:38 NR: back at 2 04:39:41 kotakag__ has joined #webmob 04:39:42 OWP on mobile has a branding problem 04:40:32 ito has left #webmob 04:56:17 kawada has joined #webmob 05:07:31 marcosc has joined #webmob 05:08:32 marcosc_ has joined #webmob 05:14:56 mete has joined #webmob 05:22:15 jjj has joined #webmob 05:24:37 nsakai has joined #webmob 05:28:31 rrsagent, pointer ? 05:28:31 See http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-webmob-irc#T05-28-31 05:29:32 dom has joined #webmob 05:34:01 byungjung has joined #webmob 05:39:21 marcosc has joined #webmob 05:39:29 jjj has joined #webmob 05:40:08 marcosc has joined #webmob 05:41:14 kotakagi has joined #webmob 05:44:33 skim13 has joined #webmob 05:44:47 skim13 has left #webmob 05:47:50 sangwhan has joined #webmob 05:48:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 05:48:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-webmob-minutes.html sangwhan 05:48:57 razybon has joined #webmob 05:51:11 bryan has joined #webmob 05:51:43 scribenick: sangwhan 05:51:51 Present+ 05:51:55 present+ Bryan_Sullivan 05:51:55 Ig_Ibert_Bittencourt has joined #webmob 05:52:02 Present+ Natasha_Rooney 05:52:02 present+ Sangwhan_Moon 05:53:48 dennisdmac has joined #webmob 05:56:31 http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/TPAC_Face-to-Face 05:58:15 sangwhan has changed the topic to: WebMob TPAC F2F http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/TPAC_Face-to-Face 05:59:56 Ig_Ibert_Bittencourt has joined #webmob 06:00:24 andyK has joined #webmob 06:01:14 mete has joined #webmob 06:01:52 http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/TPAC_Face-to-Face_Thursday#4pm:_Focus_Topics_Round_2 06:01:57 nsakai has joined #webmob 06:02:15 masahiro has joined #webmob 06:02:43 mounir_ has joined #webmob 06:03:20 Dong-Young_Lee has joined #webmob 06:03:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 06:03:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-webmob-minutes.html sangwhan 06:03:39 http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/TPAC_Face-to-Face_Thursday#4pm:_Focus_Topics_Round_2 06:03:56 Yudong has joined #webmob 06:04:08 JonathanJ has joined #webmob 06:04:15 dka has joined #webmob 06:04:31 Chair: Natasha_Roonie 06:05:23 [Self introduction time] 06:05:49 taocai has joined #webmob 06:06:01 Mohammed has joined #webmob 06:06:20 rrsagent, make minutes public 06:06:20 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', sangwhan. Try /msg RRSAgent help 06:06:43 nkic has joined #webmob 06:07:04 Ruinan has joined #webmob 06:07:24 kimwoonyoung has joined #webmob 06:07:30 rrsagent, make log public 06:07:51 Natasha: this afternoon we will be covering several topics 06:07:57 tobie has joined #webmob 06:08:01 ... as on the screen (wiki page) 06:08:06 rrsagent, make minutes 06:08:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-webmob-minutes.html JonathanJ 06:08:42 ... we are doing some small task forces to help developers write mobile apps 06:09:04 ... if you have questions add yourself to the queue 06:09:14 ... please use the irc if possible 06:09:35 ... tobie will talk a bit about scrolling, and sangwhan might add some commentary 06:09:55 tobie: i looked into this a bit, while i'm not the best candidate to talk about this 06:10:10 ... before working testing in w3c i worked on mobile related matters 06:10:29 cwdoh_ has joined #webmob 06:10:40 ... one of the reasons why we did a transition between web/native was scrolling performance 06:10:45 ito has joined #webmob 06:11:04 ... smoothness is key, and smooth scrolling is a difficult problem to solve 06:11:38 ... apart from gaming, it is one of the most intensive operations on mobile platforms 06:12:07 ... i've been trying to get the css working group to find a solution to this 06:12:13 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#scrolling 06:12:23 marcosc has joined #webmob 06:12:53 ... some of the suggestions i got from fb engineers have been shared on the coremob list 06:13:12 ... while i don't have a solution this group should definitely look into this 06:13:36 ... infinite scroll is something i would like to see in future applications 06:13:59 ... this isn't particularly easy due technical challenges of how browsers work 06:14:09 ... the big problem is that devs are implementing these features in js 06:14:35 johnny has joined #webmob 06:14:39 mounir_: Does using a worker to fetch data help? 06:14:51 Good example of infinite scroll: qz.com - also one of the companies /web sites on the forefront of the progressive mobile web. 06:14:53 tobie: workers are pretty much what everyone uses 06:15:13 DanS has joined #webmob 06:15:34 ... but it still doesn't help because layout et al is done in the main thread 06:15:36 Ig_Ibert_Bittencourt has joined #webmob 06:15:57 ... cloning the dom tree into a worker might be one approach 06:16:25 ... you could possibly bind processors to particular elements in the dom 06:16:41 ... neither i nor the group should be the ones who come up with the solutions 06:16:56 q? 06:16:57 q? 06:17:02 ack schuki 06:17:05 ... and we should bring the problems to the groups and have them solve it 06:17:36 JonathanJ has joined #webmob 06:18:06 Dan: the web is a page, with a top and a bottom - and infinite scrolling is a different metaphor 06:18:45 ... there are clear philosophical differences between the initial design and infinite scrolling so far is a hack that goes on top of it 06:18:46 myakura has joined #webmob 06:18:55 ... has this been discussed or is this a tag issue? 06:18:57 tobie: probably tag 06:19:29 ... ever since i started working with the w3c the market has already changed from documents to applications 06:19:31 +1 the infinite scrolling ship has already arrived in port 06:20:02 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#scrolling 06:20:04 ... scrolling through a lot of content is something that we would want to do 06:20:17 q+ 06:20:47 Dan: I was talking about a page, where a end of the page is the end of the page 06:21:08 MWF has joined #webmob 06:21:15 ... what i was noting is that you are bringing up that now the end of a page isn't really the end of the page 06:21:51 tobie: Ads probably influenced this 06:23:15 ... but on a mobile device scrolling and swiping is a natural ux 06:23:45 q+ 06:23:51 ack tobie 06:23:51 q+ 06:23:59 q? 06:24:12 schuki: thanks for the input 06:24:26 ack sangwhan 06:24:43 yosuke has joined #webmob 06:24:59 kotakagi has joined #webmob 06:25:14 sangwhan: appending things to the dom comes with a memory problem, so there needs to be some work on garbage collection 06:25:21 http://www.sencha.com/blog/the-making-of-fastbook-an-html5-love-story 06:27:01 q? 06:27:47 sangwhan: mobile devices have limited memory, and while infinite scrolling is a natural ux you'll eventually run out of memory 06:28:17 q+ christine 06:28:27 ack bryan 06:29:07 ... e.g. explicit gc of elements that have left the viewport 06:29:44 seo has joined #webmob 06:29:58 tobie: while you have a point and this is necessary, this is not necessarily gc but there should be a solution 06:30:02 bryan: @@@ 06:30:23 ack christine 06:30:41 q+ 06:30:57 christine: i consider the infinite scrolling problem as a infinite map 06:31:52 ack tobie 06:32:00