IRC log of webapps on 2013-11-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-irc
00:58:02 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, this log will span midnight
00:58:02 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'this log will span midnight', ArtB. Try /msg RRSAgent help
00:58:12 [ArtB]
Meeting: WebApps F2F Meeting @ TPAC 2013
00:58:33 [ArtB]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2013Meeting#Agenda_Tuesday_November_12
00:58:42 [ArtB]
Chair: Art, Chaals
00:58:47 [ArtB]
ScribeNick: ArtB
00:58:50 [ArtB]
Scribe: Art
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01:07:26 [Arno]
Present+ Arnaud_Braud
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01:09:58 [ArtB]
Present+ Art_Barstow, Charles_Nevile, Travis_Leithead, Adrian_Bateman, Eliot_Graff, Xiaoqian_Wu, Gary_Kacmarcik
01:10:05 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log Public
01:10:10 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
01:10:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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01:11:05 [ArtB]
zakim, call shenzhen
01:11:05 [Zakim]
ok, ArtB; the call is being made
01:11:06 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps()7:00PM has now started
01:11:08 [Zakim]
+Shenzhen
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01:12:29 [ArtB]
Present+ Adam_Boyet, Ryosuke_Niwa
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01:16:59 [ArtB]
zakim, who's here?
01:16:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shenzhen
01:17:00 [Zakim]
On IRC I see lmcliste_, seo, a12u, Dayang, jhmoon, hoyang, kawai, wyh, plh, xiaoqian, ijongcheol, cwdoh, tobie, kurosawa, RRSAgent, edoyle, Zakim, byungjung, johnny, dom, Lachy,
01:17:00 [Zakim]
... ArtB, Arno, glenn, Marcus_Altman___, Takahiro_, sgalineau, darobin
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Present+ Jungkee_Song
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01:18:10 [ArtB]
Present+ Takayoshi_Kochi
01:18:20 [hoyang]
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01:18:43 [ArtB]
Topic: Admin, Agenda Setting
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01:20:01 [ArtB]
AB: this morning we will talk about Web Components
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01:20:10 [ArtB]
… Dominic will join us from Mtn View
01:20:32 [ArtB]
s/Dominic will join us/Dimitri will join us/
01:20:40 [ArtB]
… and Dominc from Tokyo
01:21:04 [ArtB]
… After the morning break we will talk about Testing and Interop
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01:21:12 [ArtB]
Present+ Ted_OConnor
01:21:33 [ArtB]
AB: we will start Web Components @ 09:30
01:21:39 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
01:21:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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Present+ Erika_Doyle_Navara
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01:23:58 [ArtB]
Present+ Jonas_Sicking
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01:34:30 [dglazkov]
trying...
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01:36:23 [adrianba]
zakim, code?
01:36:23 [Zakim]
the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), adrianba
01:36:33 [Travis]
Scribe: Travis
01:36:37 [Travis]
Scribenick: Travis
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01:37:31 [denis]
zakim, room for 5?
01:37:33 [Zakim]
ok, denis; conference Team_(webapps)01:37Z scheduled with code 26635 (CONF5) for 60 minutes until 0237Z
01:38:12 [Travis]
Topic: Technical Difficulties...
01:38:12 [ArtB]
denis, how do we get the Shenzhen conf room to attach to this new bridge?
01:38:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.397.aaaa
01:38:48 [denis]
zakim, aaaa is dglazkov
01:38:48 [Zakim]
+dglazkov; got it
01:38:55 [hoyang]
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01:39:00 [Travis]
Topic: Web Components
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01:39:53 [Travis]
Zakim, +1.650 is dglazkov
01:39:53 [Zakim]
sorry, Travis, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650'
01:40:08 [Travis]
Zakim, 1.650.397.aaaa is dglazkov
01:40:08 [Zakim]
sorry, Travis, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.397.aaaa'
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01:40:15 [denis]
zakim, who's on the phone?
01:40:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shenzhen, dglazkov
01:40:54 [ArtB]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0042.html
01:41:03 [Travis]
ArtB: Please take a minute or two to give us a status update
01:41:20 [Travis]
dglazkov: Things are mostly unchanged.
01:41:23 [chen]
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01:41:36 [naka_]
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01:41:45 [Travis]
... custom elements have made pretty good progress--kinks worked out.
01:41:57 [Travis]
... next step is a CR-ready doc.
01:42:21 [Travis]
... the basics are there, everything else is additive.
01:42:39 [JonathanJ1]
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01:43:00 [Travis]
... Shadow DOM keeps going on--perhaps this year it can get to completion
01:43:06 [Travis]
... custom elements may provide something that is simple and good.
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01:43:41 [Travis]
... Shadow DOM has been taking over by ???, who is aligning with DOM4
01:43:46 [Travis]
... also switching it to ReSpec
01:44:20 [Travis]
... I'm focusing on custom elements.
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01:45:07 [ArtB]
s/taking over by???/taking over by mailto:hayato@google.com/
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01:46:46 [Travis]
ArtB: Switching over to ryosuki
01:46:50 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
01:46:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
01:47:14 [ArtB]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0418.html -> Ryosuke's email
01:47:29 [Travis]
Ryosuki: Highlights key points from email.
01:47:49 [Travis]
dglazkov: Reviewed the email today, and want to address each point, time might be short.
01:48:29 [Travis]
... sounds like you have the right motivation, but cutting out some pieces that we care about to. We want to build something that works in both cases: same origin and cross-origin.
01:48:49 [Travis]
Ryosuki: we think the current design makes cross-origin use cases much harder.
01:49:13 [Travis]
dglazkov: I think there are ways to do it (via Imports)
01:49:19 [rniwa]
Travis: s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/
01:49:32 [Travis]
... I think you're looking for encapsulation around shadow dom
01:49:45 [jjj]
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01:49:58 [Travis]
... mozilla researchers came up with an elegant solutions for +1 buttons with trusted/untrusted code.
01:50:13 [Travis]
... was hoping we'd taken everything we wrote down and make something good out of it.
01:50:27 [Travis]
Ryosuki: our concern is with the specs going to last call.
01:50:51 [Travis]
dglazkov: There is no changes to custom elements--these specs are all de-coupled.
01:51:16 [Travis]
... I responded to your proposal, and there is one thing I don't think we should do
01:51:26 [Travis]
... the callback proposal.
01:51:36 [ArtB]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0436.html -> Dimitri's reply to Ryosuke
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01:52:22 [Travis]
Ryosuki: Our concern is more about the HTML Imports; document.register, seems fine-no objections.
01:52:38 [Travis]
dglazkov: This spec needs to cook a lot more.
01:53:20 [Travis]
Ryosuki: let's chat about html imports
01:53:47 [Travis]
Jonas: I have the same concern about how this runs script
01:54:17 [Travis]
... same concern as apple, that imports run scripts in importing docuement. Seems like same mistake with script tags
01:54:20 [Travis]
... it's security issue,
01:54:34 [Travis]
... but bigger problem is bad comm protocol.
01:54:39 [naka]
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01:55:00 [Travis]
... this the impetus for ES6 modules pattern. We should reuse some of these ideas in Html imprts.
01:55:12 [Travis]
dglazkov: You should raise this concern
01:56:17 [Travis]
dglazkov: please raise the concern on the mailing list
01:56:27 [Travis]
... there there be dragons.
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01:56:49 [Travis]
... the polymer folks were starting to work on this, so they'll have more expertise.
01:57:02 [Travis]
... I can set general outcome expectations
01:57:18 [Travis]
... imports in same origin--originally we didn't want to run script at all.
01:57:25 [Travis]
... at first imports was like template only
01:57:42 [Travis]
... then it's changed.
01:57:56 [Travis]
... we a providing a good solution to a tricky problem
01:58:29 [Travis]
Ryosuki: we're open to the idea of accessing global doc in imported doc.
01:58:33 [Travis]
... for same origin of course.
01:58:52 [Travis]
... the imported doc can execute any script by default doesn't play with x-origin case.
01:59:01 [ArtB]
s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/
01:59:12 [Travis]
... with same origin component, you could use x-origin component with having to completely change the way it behaves.
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01:59:28 [slightlyoff]
q+
01:59:30 [Travis]
dglazkov: I don't have a ready solution. Need to outline how to address it.
01:59:39 [ArtB]
Present+ Alex_Russell
01:59:57 [Travis]
... with imports, you can add other imports (same or x-origin)
02:00:01 [Travis]
... we have some ideas.
02:00:24 [Travis]
dglazkov: generally problem with imports...
02:00:55 [mizuman]
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02:01:17 [Travis]
... version management was an issue for bootstrap people.
02:01:41 [Travis]
... I could do so much more--provide stylesheets for the document via imports.
02:01:42 [Travis]
... etc.
02:01:56 [mizuman]
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02:02:02 [Travis]
... I could bring in all the scaffolding...
02:02:26 [Travis]
... as long as we provide a solution to these guys [bootstrap] then I'll be happy.
02:02:47 [Travis]
slightlyoff: history context:
02:03:00 [Travis]
... imports work today unifies cross-and-same origin imports.
02:03:02 [Travis]
... they are the same
02:03:06 [Travis]
... just like script include
02:03:10 [Travis]
... and it can do what it likes.
02:03:13 [xiaoqian]
q- slightlyoff
02:03:16 [Travis]
... this is how the web works.
02:03:21 [Travis]
... this is how Alex has a job.
02:03:48 [Travis]
... we've thought about how web component system can create a security barrier.
02:04:00 [Travis]
... layout and script boundaries
02:04:13 [Travis]
... basically need what iframes offer.
02:04:21 [Travis]
... I think we can solve this orthogonally.
02:04:30 [Travis]
... shouldn't block web components.
02:04:48 [Travis]
... if we can decompose the essense of iframe separation, we likely can integrate a solution
02:04:51 [slightlyoff]
note that I'm not arguing that iframes are the answer
02:05:15 [Travis]
ryosuki: we thought about using seamless iframe for a solution
02:05:26 [Travis]
... except that with a lot of them...
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02:05:43 [Travis]
... there are multiple (20-30 iframes)
02:05:48 [Travis]
... not a scalable solution.
02:06:06 [Travis]
... with separate solutions for same origin and cross-origin
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02:06:14 [Travis]
... this is bad, we want one solution for both
02:06:29 [Travis]
hober: to echo jonas
02:06:33 [MikeSmith]
s/ryosuki/ryosuke/g
02:06:39 [Travis]
... we are leaning lessons doing modules
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02:06:56 [Travis]
... (from modules)
02:06:56 [MikeSmith]
s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/g
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02:07:10 [Travis]
slightlyoff: I support the idea/goal
02:07:17 [Travis]
... yes, iframes aren't scalable
02:07:27 [aboyet]
s/leaning/learning/g
02:07:28 [Travis]
... mutual auth wrt global access seems reasonable
02:07:40 [Travis]
... we don't have ES6 modules yet.
02:07:55 [Travis]
... so it seems premature to design a system before this.
02:08:14 [Travis]
... I support the goals, etc., but we should revisit after we have ES6 modules
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02:08:27 [Travis]
jonas: html imports are only in one browser
02:08:48 [Travis]
slightlyoff: seems like an alignment with modules, so we should work on the one before the other.
02:08:59 [Travis]
hober: no reason to gate one on the other, they both should just proceed.
02:09:04 [Travis]
slightlyoff: I would want them ordered.
02:09:17 [hober]
s/just proceed/proceed together/
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02:09:29 [Travis]
ryusuke: we would like ES6 module + imports to be consistent with each other.
02:09:39 [Travis]
... I don't think we need to fully wait for one to wait on the other.
02:09:44 [Travis]
slightlyoff: Yep. Agree
02:10:08 [Travis]
... TC39 process produces a completely integrated spec draft, after which it takes a little while to get to "rec"
02:10:22 [hober]
expanding on that: as we work on both, we find and fix incompatibilities. no one is proposing that the platform should have incompatibles mechanism
02:10:25 [Travis]
... something closer to CR may be approximately early next year.
02:10:32 [Travis]
... I don't want to get too far ahead of this.
02:11:05 [Travis]
... we should consider imports with modules together.
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02:11:15 [Travis]
... let's avoid crazy vortexes.
02:11:28 [Travis]
dglazkov: +1 on imports + module consistency
02:11:33 [Travis]
hober: violent agreement.
02:12:02 [Travis]
ryosuke: our big concern was if html imports went forward today, we have big concerns with x-origin use cases.
02:12:17 [Travis]
... if things slow down, then we can make sure this is done right.
02:12:33 [Travis]
dglazkov: We need to figure out what those x-origin issues are, merge them, and move forward.
02:12:49 [Travis]
... ryosuke: please drive this!
02:13:13 [Travis]
jonas: I think module discussion and x-origin are unrelated
02:13:33 [slightlyoff]
so the other analogs are workers
02:13:40 [slightlyoff]
and we don't have workers that have renderers
02:13:45 [Travis]
... want to figure out the x-origin story. Seems hard.
02:14:07 [Travis]
... whatever we create may seem a lot like iframes, or use a lot of the same primitives
02:14:13 [slightlyoff]
so if we had a RenderWorker that had the ability to have some sort of DOM view to it, that'd be workable, but again, we don't have that infrastructure
02:14:19 [Travis]
... dosen't seem like a blocker (to me).
02:15:10 [Travis]
dglazkov: Want to write down this proposal.
02:15:19 [Travis]
... sync with web app sec.
02:15:31 [Travis]
... should start looking at x-origin use cases.
02:15:57 [Travis]
ryosuke: new topic (slighty)--templates
02:16:06 [Travis]
... chatted with rafael, etc.
02:16:34 [Travis]
... want to do mustache syntax in tempates.
02:16:57 [Travis]
dglazkov: Seems just outside my scope.... may need to work with rafael.
02:17:10 [Travis]
s/tempates/templates/
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02:17:41 [Travis]
hober: You're comfortable addressing mustache syntax in templates?
02:17:52 [Travis]
dglazkov: Yes, YES, YES!!!
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02:17:57 [Travis]
... very comfortable.
02:18:45 [Travis]
dglazkov: I suspect that we'll hear that there isn't one way to do this
02:18:55 [Travis]
... (it'll be hard to land on "the right one")
02:19:05 [Travis]
hober: not married to the double {{
02:19:17 [Travis]
ryosuki: that's all
02:19:37 [Travis]
Chaals: no further questions..
02:19:39 [Travis]
?
02:19:51 [Travis]
dglazkov: Keep up the good work
02:19:57 [Zakim]
-dglazkov
02:20:28 [rniwa]
dglazkov: thanks!
02:20:29 [Travis]
Travis: Microsoft hasn't looked in depth at this yet.
02:20:49 [Zakim]
-Shenzhen
02:20:51 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps()7:00PM has ended
02:20:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shenzhen, +1.650.397.aaaa, dglazkov
02:21:06 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
02:21:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
02:22:50 [ArtB]
Present+ Dimitr_Glazkov(phone)
02:22:58 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
02:22:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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scribenick: aboyet
03:10:32 [ArtB]
Scribe+ Adam
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03:10:45 [aboyet]
TOPIC: Test Interopt
03:11:13 [aboyet]
artb: wanted to go through specs and what it's going to take to get to next steps
03:11:24 [aboyet]
.. first one IndexDB
03:11:30 [AndroUser]
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03:11:47 [aboyet]
… last college about 6 months ago, Alex agreed test facilitor for that spec
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03:12:12 [aboyet]
… have ~7 requests for IDB and not seemed to be reviewed yet, anybody give status of this?
03:12:57 [aboyet]
adrianba: believe the work alex has been doing is moved away from IDB, we'd be happy with help on it
03:13:16 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow find another Test Facilitator for IDB spec
03:13:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-704 - Find another test facilitator for idb spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-19].
03:13:18 [aboyet]
artb: will record action to find test person
03:13:43 [aboyet]
…. can anybody here to volunteer to help with the IDB testing effort ?
03:13:56 [jeroskim]
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03:14:03 [aboyet]
… curious what mizilla's level of interest is for this
03:14:16 [myakura]
s/mizilla/Mozilla/
03:14:16 [aboyet]
… need to review PRs for IDB as well
03:14:27 [ArtB]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-testsuite/2013Oct/0013.html -> IDB Pull Requests for tests
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03:14:54 [aboyet]
… 4 diff pull request during test web forward paris event
03:15:24 [aboyet]
…. first step for interop is to try to agree on the set of tests, until we get review then we don't have a basis
03:15:48 [aboyet]
… really pleading to get people to step for review
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03:16:22 [aboyet]
james: think there are some overlap in tests from microsoft tests and opera tests
03:16:24 [jin]
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03:16:40 [aboyet]
…. other submissions are smaller, so not as much as it looks like there
03:17:52 [aboyet]
artb: thanks for clarification …. we need somebody as test facilitator for IDB, won't be able to move forward in interop until tests are reviews
03:18:01 [aboyet]
… anything else (to the crowd)
03:18:13 [aboyet]
TOPIC: Server Sent Events
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03:18:42 [aboyet]
artb: not too far off from having 2 impls passing the tests, tina has done some good works in analyzing the failures
03:19:15 [aboyet]
… so there are 5 test failures preventing from going to recommendation. from chrome and firefox
03:20:00 [kurosawa]
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03:20:57 [aboyet]
james: it looks like there are some common failures … maybe it could be a change to the spec then to fix both of them but depends if failing for same reason so some sluething needs to occur, OK scratch all of that
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03:21:49 [aboyet]
… it's an interaction with a second spec
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03:22:05 [aboyet]
chaals: maybe small enough bugs or known bug from before
03:22:18 [aboyet]
… just need to look in to the bugs an tina could provide more
03:22:41 [ArtB]
ACTION: talk to Tina about how to make progress on SSE interop
03:22:41 [trackbot]
Error finding 'talk'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
03:23:18 [aboyet]
artb: what about the timeout one failing is actually a test case issue instead … will talk to tina about it
03:23:48 [aboyet]
james: have a feeling these were opera test originally … zzzz is around here could ask him
03:25:00 [aboyet]
artb: anything else on event source?
03:25:08 [aboyet]
TOPIC: Web Messaging
03:25:17 [kinukoAndroUser]
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03:25:23 [aboyet]
artb: have alex as test facilitator , adrian is alex able to help with this one ?
03:25:45 [aboyet]
adrian: talked to chris, his opinion is we have a good enough set of test for web messaging an there is interop here.
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03:26:50 [aboyet]
… while still some failures looks like there might be some need investigation
03:26:59 [aboyet]
… propose give me action to talk to chris
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03:27:24 [ArtB]
ACTION: bateman followup with KrisK re WebMessaging test results http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebMessaging
03:27:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-705 - Followup with krisk re webmessaging test results http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/webmessaging [on Adrian Bateman - due 2013-11-19].
03:27:34 [aboyet]
artb: anymore ?
03:27:37 [aboyet]
.. ok next up
03:27:44 [aboyet]
TOPIC: Web Sockets
03:28:22 [aboyet]
artb: Kris is test faciliator i went ahead and ran these, some timeouts towards the end of the tests maybe a problem with the tests themselves
03:28:40 [aboyet]
james: yeah, that looks wrong, the web sockets test have historically had issues there
03:28:56 [aboyet]
… suggest re-running tests to improve things
03:29:15 [aboyet]
adrianba: may have some issues with network configs etc. proxy server
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03:30:19 [aboyet]
… conclusion we had they were until there were changes to people impls there were issues that still needed to be addressed
03:30:46 [aboyet]
… still a question about how importatn are those test in grand scheme
03:30:55 [aboyet]
artb: what is reasonable next step?
03:31:18 [aboyet]
… does it make sense to have Kris eval what is there and make a recommendation?
03:31:39 [aboyet]
adrainba: don't think they are bogus, the opera tests added added additional coverage
03:32:45 [kinukoAndroUser]
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03:32:58 [aboyet]
… one option would be to analyze the current coverage of the tests and what the failures are a resulting from
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03:33:53 [aboyet]
james: think those results are misleading, just ran the tests on gecko and we are def. getting some passes where those results are getting timeouts
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03:34:08 [aboyet]
… just for anybody looking at the screen and seeing red
03:34:35 [aboyet]
artb: would you be willing to update the gecko results?
03:35:10 [aboyet]
james: yeah but there is a problem with running the secure tests so get timeout for anything that runs the ssl tests but can update for non-ssl tests
03:35:32 [aboyet]
artb: leaves somebody to run the chrome ones again, anybody from opera
03:35:59 [aboyet]
mmm: yeah we could run them again
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03:36:25 [ArtB]
ACTION: pieters run the Web Sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebSockets
03:36:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-706 - Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets [on Simon Pieters - due 2013-11-19].
03:36:42 [ArtB]
ACTION: bateman Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets
03:36:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-707 - Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets [on Adrian Bateman - due 2013-11-19].
03:36:50 [ArtB]
ACTION graham Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets
03:36:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-708 - Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets [on James Graham - due 2013-11-19].
03:37:03 [aboyet]
artb: anybody willing to run chrome tests?
03:37:06 [chaals]
s/mmm: /richt: /
03:37:08 [ArtB]
ACTION Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets for Chrome
03:37:08 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Run'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
03:37:36 [aboyet]
richt: i'll talk to nnn about running chromium tests
03:37:49 [chaals]
s/nnn/simonp/
03:37:56 [aboyet]
TOPIC: Web Workers
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03:38:14 [aboyet]
artb: have an interop table but not tests have been run it seems
03:38:47 [aboyet]
… does any implementation implement ?
03:39:03 [aboyet]
… if the answer is no then probably not worthwhile to run tests
03:39:22 [aboyet]
james: i know gecko doesn't ….. i don't know about others
03:40:53 [aboyet]
alex: not authoritative on this topic ….there are issues with some stuff but not aware of all of them
03:41:11 [aboyet]
chaals: but does sound like worth running tests suite
03:41:16 [aboyet]
… on chrome
03:41:28 [aboyet]
artb: any volunteers to run it ?
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03:41:51 [aboyet]
nikuko: I can run them
03:42:02 [myakura]
s/nikuko/kinuko/
03:42:14 [ArtB]
ACTION: kinuko run the Workers tests on Chrome and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebWorkers
03:42:14 [trackbot]
Error finding 'kinuko'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
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03:42:44 [aboyet]
adrianba: feeling like ground hogs day on this
03:43:19 [aboyet]
… it seems like almost every tpac we have this same conversation
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03:44:06 [aboyet]
artb: a tpac or two ago, would need somebody to step up to do the editorial work
03:44:31 [aboyet]
chaals: anybody think that would be a fun thing to do and use the delete key all over the spec
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03:46:01 [ArtB]
s/or two ago/or two ago I proposed the same thing and got bashed for it; /
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03:47:06 [aboyet]
travis: volunteers to take that up
03:47:11 [ArtB]
ACTION: travis remove the Shared Workers from the Workers spec
03:47:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-709 - Remove the shared workers from the workers spec [on Travis Leithead - due 2013-11-19].
03:47:50 [aboyet]
artb: it still makes sense to run the tests then
03:47:59 [aboyet]
… thats all i had for interop and testing
03:48:28 [aboyet]
chaals: gives travis some crazy bottle
03:49:23 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
03:49:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
03:50:50 [myakura]
<br backat="1:30" />
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05:35:47 [ArtB]
Topic: Testing
05:35:52 [byungjung]
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05:35:56 [ArtB]
AB: thanks James for leading this session!
05:36:08 [ArtB]
Scribe+ ArtB
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ScribeNick: ArtB
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05:42:29 [ArtB]
JG: this afternoon is mainly about testing
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05:42:38 [ArtB]
… it's important for a number of reasons
05:42:53 [ArtB]
… needed for advancement to REC
05:43:05 [ArtB]
… but more importantly, we need tests to get the interop we want
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05:43:17 [ArtB]
… deviations in impls means web devs hate us
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05:43:26 [ArtB]
… and then they write native apps instead
05:43:55 [ArtB]
… Although we have in WebApps some tests, we are having problems getting some tests reviewed
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05:44:06 [ArtB]
… and without review, the tests are not "accpeted"
05:44:18 [ArtB]
… So, I'll take about Test Review this afternoon
05:44:37 [ArtB]
[ James show slide re Reasons for Test Review ]
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05:44:55 [ArtB]
JR: 1. Check tests are correct per spec
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05:45:05 [ArtB]
… 2. Check tests are written robustly
05:45:23 [ArtB]
… 3. Check for style issues that will make tests fragile or hard to run
05:45:41 [ArtB]
… 4. Ensure tests are not using server-side script in a malicious way
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05:46:02 [ArtB]
s/show slide re/shows slide regarding/
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s/JR:/JG:/
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05:47:13 [ArtB]
JG: don't want someone from outside of W3C doing bad stuff like %rm -rf /
05:47:29 [ArtB]
… I'll start with some tools for test review
05:47:50 [ArtB]
… Re test review @ w3c
05:48:09 [ArtB]
… Start by cloning web-platform-tests (on GH)
05:48:23 [ArtB]
… We have many Pull Requests (PR) now
05:48:50 [ArtB]
… The simplest tool is to use GH directly
05:49:01 [ArtB]
… and just add a comment to a commit
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05:49:18 [ArtB]
… GH can show raw diff
05:49:51 [ArtB]
… Just click on a line number and then add a comment
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05:50:33 [ArtB]
… (Here's an example PR: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/63)
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05:50:49 [ArtB]
… It's hard to know if a comment has been addressed
05:50:58 [ArtB]
… Also hard to know if a review is complete or not
05:51:32 [ArtB]
… Although GH for code review is ok, it isn't always power enough, especially for more complicated reviews
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05:52:53 [ArtB]
JR: we have the "Critic" tool or Opera Critic for reviews
05:52:56 [ArtB]
https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/home
05:53:19 [ArtB]
… Opera created this because other code review tools were not sufficient for some uses
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05:53:34 [ArtB]
… it can be a bit intimidating at first
05:53:52 [ArtB]
… Critic use GH credentials (via OAuth)
05:54:00 [ArtB]
… It will try to complete a profile for you
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05:54:22 [ArtB]
… At a minimum, need to fill in your email to get notifications
05:54:46 [ArtB]
… For reviewers, can configure it so that it only shows reviews for those reviews of interest
05:55:01 [ArtB]
… (unlike GH which has a very coarse notification system)
05:55:57 [ArtB]
… Go to Filters and then Add filter to set selections
05:56:36 [ArtB]
… < James shows a Critic review >
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05:57:14 [ArtB]
… Even if you haven't created a filter, you can still submit a comment
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05:57:43 [ArtB]
… One main advantage of Critic is that it says, on a per file and per commit basis, the percentage of the review that is complete
05:57:56 [ArtB]
… it also tracks the review issues that still open
05:58:08 [ArtB]
s/that still open/that are still open/
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05:59:04 [ArtB]
… One question then is, how do I do the review?
05:59:19 [ArtB]
… Can select the commit to review
06:00:19 [ArtB]
… If a review has a bunch of commits, can select all of the commits and then see all of the proposed changes for the entire review
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06:02:56 [ArtB]
JG: If issues are raised, they must be closed before a PR can be merged/closed
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06:04:29 [ArtB]
… when submitting a comment, can differentiate "Issues" from "Notes"
06:04:55 [ArtB]
… It is also possible with Critic to make an Issue span more than one line of code
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06:05:19 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
06:05:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
06:06:08 [ArtB]
JG: if someone wants to use Critic with a PR, please let me
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06:06:26 [ArtB]
… I think it has significant advantages over GH's review feature
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06:08:06 [ArtB]
RN: is critic feedback sent to GH?
06:08:19 [ArtB]
JG: no, think that would result in lots of e-mail
06:09:22 [ArtB]
RN: it would be nice if GH and Critic could sync
06:09:34 [ArtB]
JG: that's possible but probably not trivial
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06:09:46 [ArtB]
… think it would result in an annoying amount of emails
06:09:58 [ArtB]
… In practice, that hasn't been a problem so far
06:10:14 [ArtB]
JG: those are the two tools for code review
06:10:35 [ArtB]
… The next Q is, "what should I be looking for?"
06:10:54 [ArtB]
… the TestTWF site has all of the appropriate docs
06:11:12 [aboyet]
http://testthewebforward.org/
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06:11:39 [ArtB]
JG: < Displays Slide for Test Review Checklist >
06:12:15 [ArtB]
… Use most specific assert possible
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06:12:25 [rhauck2]
http://testthewebforward.org/docs/
06:12:33 [ArtB]
… Make it clear if there is an "Expected Failure"
06:13:07 [ArtB]
… Dont use internal timeouts unless they are unavoidable. Prefer events
06:13:25 [ArtB]
… Use idlharness.js where possible to check WebIDL-derived assertions
06:13:39 [ArtB]
… External resources must not be used
06:13:39 [rhauck2]
this checklist should be integrated here: http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html
06:13:56 [ArtB]
… Check files don't have the executable bit set if not necessary
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06:14:13 [ArtB]
… Ensure server-side code does not do anything malicious
06:14:30 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
06:14:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
06:15:18 [ArtB]
ACTION: graham integrate Test Checklist with http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html
06:15:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-710 - Integrate test checklist with http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html [on James Graham - due 2013-11-19].
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06:17:38 [ArtB]
… I've recently submitted a PR to remove PHP
06:17:55 [rniwa]
rhauck2: do you know what's happening there?
06:17:56 [ArtB]
JG: < Code Style slide >
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06:18:05 [ArtB]
… Avoid trailing whitespace
06:18:24 [ArtB]
… Use sufficient whitespace to make sure that tests are differentiable
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06:18:30 [ArtB]
… Prefer spaces to tabs
06:18:43 [ArtB]
… Use Unix-style LF instead of Windows-style CR LF
06:18:47 [rhauck2]
rniwa: oh dear - we had a great firewall problem with the site the other day in a different room
06:18:54 [ArtB]
RN: can't these checks be automated?
06:19:00 [rhauck2]
rniwa: maybe we're hitting it now here?
06:19:03 [ArtB]
JG: yes, certainly in theory
06:19:13 [rniwa]
rhauck2: i'm on VPN though
06:19:15 [rhauck2]
rniwa: i'm currently vpn'ed in
06:19:22 [rhauck2]
rniwa: me too
06:20:04 [rhauck2]
rniwa: does staging work for you? http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/docs/
06:20:07 [ArtB]
RN: perhaps Critic could automatically check some of these style issues
06:20:21 [ArtB]
JG: yes, it does for some stuff (like trailing WS)
06:20:29 [rniwa]
rhauck2: yup
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06:20:52 [rniwa]
rhauck2: http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/docs/review-checklist.html works too :D
06:20:53 [rniwa]
rhauck2: thanks!
06:20:55 [rhauck2]
ArtB: btw, cross logged the AI on the testtwf-website issue tracker: https://github.com/w3c/testtwf-website/issues/194
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06:21:12 [rniwa]
rhauck2: is this some sort of a server issue?
06:21:24 [rhauck2]
rniwa: weird. whatup with Apple?
06:21:30 [rhauck2]
rniwa: no idea
06:21:32 [ArtB]
JG: it is possible to run all PRs directly
06:21:33 [rniwa]
rhauck2: oh, it's us :/ nm...
06:21:40 [rhauck2]
rniwa: works for me both on and off vpn
06:21:49 [rniwa]
rhauck2: but i can access http://testthewebforward.org
06:21:50 [ArtB]
JG: f.ex. http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/workers/
06:21:55 [rniwa]
rhauck2: only http://testthewebforward.org/docs/ is what i get 404 on
06:22:11 [rhauck2]
rniwa: (we fixed the great firewall problem when we discovered it the other day - had to do with a godaddy name server that was blocked in china)
06:22:13 [ArtB]
… this automated mirroring can cause probs f.ex. if a PR included bad php
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06:23:03 [rhauck2]
rniwa: what about stuff under /docs? like: http://testthewebforward.org/docs/testharness-tutorial.html
06:23:06 [ArtB]
… To get something mirrored to w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/
06:23:24 [ArtB]
… if one isn't in the "special grou
06:23:29 [rniwa]
rhauck2: that one worked
06:23:42 [rniwa]
rhauck2: just http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html">http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html and http://testthewebforward.org/docs/ I guess
06:23:46 [rhauck2]
rniwa: weirdo man
06:23:51 [ArtB]
… group, then someone in that group needs to add a w3c-test:mirror comment to get the mirror to happen
06:24:05 [rhauck2]
rniwa: just the exact 2 pages we were talking about :)
06:24:08 [rniwa]
rhauck2: yeah :(
06:24:29 [ArtB]
JG: so that's all I had re the mechanics of Code Reviews
06:24:43 [ArtB]
… there are now 127 Open PRs!
06:24:49 [ArtB]
… thus a backlog
06:25:24 [ArtB]
RB: we got about 30 PRs during the TestTWF Shenzhen event on Nov 9
06:25:36 [rniwa]
rhauck2: huh, it started working now. so strange. thanks for the help
06:25:54 [ArtB]
AB: can we get a list of PRs for WebApps?
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06:26:55 [ArtB]
RB: hmmmm
06:27:07 [ArtB]
JG: the answer is yes, but no URL
06:27:49 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow sent James a list of WebApps' test dirs in w-p-t
06:27:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-711 - Sent james a list of webapps' test dirs in w-p-t [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-19].
06:29:30 [ArtB]
ArtB: we need review help with several PRs
06:29:39 [ArtB]
… especially IDB (we have 7 open PRs)
06:29:49 [ArtB]
… If anyone can commit to a review, please let me know
06:30:06 [ArtB]
JG: PR 379 is an important one too
06:30:18 [ArtB]
… if anyone can look at that, please let me know
06:30:37 [myakura]
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06:31:46 [ArtB]
… platform
06:31:54 [ArtB]
https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/379
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06:34:18 [ArtB]
JG: re PR379
06:34:28 [ArtB]
… need review some of the XHR tests
06:34:45 [ArtB]
… also NavigationTiming test need review
06:35:54 [ArtB]
PLH: I already submitted a PR for the NavTiming part of 379
06:36:10 [ArtB]
GH: need review of async tests
06:36:16 [ArtB]
… some Opera dnd tests
06:36:30 [ArtB]
… script scheduling tests (from O)
06:36:52 [ArtB]
… preload tests (expect Simon to review those)
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06:39:48 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
06:39:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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06:44:49 [ArtB]
ArtB: here are some open PRs for WebApps
06:44:54 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/53
06:45:23 [ArtB]
… IDB: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/63
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06:45:45 [ArtB]
… IDB: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/634
06:46:42 [ArtB]
… Shadow DOM: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/143
06:47:12 [ArtB]
… HTML Imports: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/178
06:47:33 [ArtB]
… Shadow DOM: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/194
06:48:12 [ArtB]
… Shadow DOM: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/278
06:48:34 [ArtB]
… File API: github
06:48:46 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/279
06:49:08 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/282
06:49:32 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/283
06:50:03 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/284
06:50:40 [ArtB]
… EventSource: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/285
06:52:32 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/286
06:52:38 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2867
06:52:50 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2867
06:53:06 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/286287
06:53:27 [ArtB]
AB: and more PRs for Web Apps …
06:53:49 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/287
06:54:05 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/288
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06:54:21 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/289
06:54:35 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/290
06:54:52 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/291
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06:55:33 [ArtB]
… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/293
06:55:51 [ArtB]
… Progress Events: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/294
06:59:58 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
06:59:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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07:45:18 [ArtB]
Topic: Writing Tests
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07:45:35 [ArtB]
JG: I'm not sure what we want to try to accomplish in this session
07:45:35 [mizuman]
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07:45:46 [ArtB]
… We are getting more contributinos
07:46:09 [ArtB]
… If anyone has specific questions about "how to test X", I can work with them 1:1
07:46:19 [aboyet]
http://testthewebforward.org/docs/
07:46:24 [ArtB]
… A new exciting resource is testthewebforward.org
07:46:28 [cwdoh]
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07:46:35 [ArtB]
… Having public events
07:46:38 [csjung]
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07:46:39 [ArtB]
… to write tests
07:46:43 [ArtB]
… to improve interop
07:46:52 [mizuman]
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07:46:54 [ArtB]
… It has become the "overall" name for W3C Testing Effort
07:47:02 [ArtB]
… which is great [to have that brand]
07:47:07 [richt]
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07:47:25 [ArtB]
… The site has lots of docs for tasks about writing tests
07:47:36 [ArtB]
… Rebecca is the expert
07:47:54 [jjj]
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07:47:56 [ArtB]
… and she is hosting a session about the Future of TestTWF tomorrow
07:48:10 [ArtB]
… Our test repo is GitHub (GH)
07:48:22 [mizuman]
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07:48:26 [ArtB]
… Need to start with git and how to submit tests
07:48:41 [ArtB]
… The TestTWF tutorial is great
07:48:47 [kawai]
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07:49:07 [ArtB]
… And one can always ask Q's in W3C's #testing or #webapps IRC channels
07:49:17 [ArtB]
… As of today, there are 3 types of tests
07:49:24 [ArtB]
… 1. JavaScript
07:49:31 [ArtB]
… uses testharness.js
07:49:50 [ArtB]
… I can help anyone with the harness
07:50:01 [ArtB]
… 2. RefTests - for testing rendering
07:50:07 [ArtB]
… relevant f.ex. for CSS
07:50:22 [ArtB]
… could be needed by WebApps, f.ex. if the test has some "display"
07:50:29 [yywu]
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07:50:37 [ArtB]
… Instead of just creating one test, need a second file
07:50:47 [ArtB]
… that serves as the "reference"
07:51:14 [ArtB]
… This allows Pass/Fail based on comparing both files
07:51:23 [ArtB]
… 3. Manual Tests
07:51:33 [ArtB]
… we try to avoid these because they are costly
07:51:43 [ArtB]
… f.ex. time consuming to run
07:52:01 [ArtB]
… Only want those if #1 or #2 can't be used
07:52:14 [ArtB]
… Also in the future expect to accept Web Driver tests
07:52:32 [ArtB]
… allows driving the browser externally
07:52:50 [ArtB]
… < James introduces David Burns (DB) >
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07:53:08 [ArtB]
DB: I co-edit Web Driver spec
07:53:22 [ArtB]
… allows automated driving the browser simulating a user
07:53:37 [ArtB]
… we aren't "stuck" in JavaScript
07:53:53 [denis]
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07:53:56 [ArtB]
… We can do trusted events (e.g. logging into a specific service)
07:54:11 [ArtB]
s/JavaScript/JavaScript sandbox/
07:54:24 [ArtB]
DB: < gives a demo … >
07:54:35 [aboyet]
http://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/
07:54:57 [ArtB]
DB: Web Driver starts the browser, sets default config
07:55:06 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
07:55:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
07:55:21 [ArtB]
… we can then do things like navigate to URLs
07:55:38 [ArtB]
… can use Python, C#, Ruby and a couple of others
07:55:39 [yywu]
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07:55:49 [ArtB]
… FB has PHP version
07:55:52 [Jirka]
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07:56:07 [ArtB]
… anyone can write a language binding (spec says how to do so)
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07:57:27 [ArtB]
… can execute arbitrary JS
07:57:38 [ArtB]
… the JS is sandboxed
07:58:21 [ArtB]
DB: we also have advanced user interactions
07:58:37 [ArtB]
… f.ex. shift+letter+mouse_drag can be done
07:58:56 [ArtB]
… really nice for doing things outside of a JS test framework
07:59:00 [ArtB]
AB: nice!
07:59:17 [ArtB]
DB: implemented in FFox, Chome and Opera
07:59:19 [Qian]
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07:59:29 [ArtB]
… we use it to test FFOS
08:00:01 [ArtB]
… We also allow it access browser chrome
08:00:13 [a12u]
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08:00:14 [ArtB]
s/allow it/allow it to/
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08:00:34 [ArtB]
… If testharness.js doesn't fit, please try Web Driver
08:00:47 [ArtB]
… There is interest from other browser vendors
08:01:06 [ArtB]
Travis: there is a 3rd party soln for IE
08:01:26 [ArtB]
DB: we hope all browser vendors will implement it
08:01:53 [ArtB]
… Please let me know if you want to chat about Web Driver or get some demos
08:02:15 [mizuman]
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08:02:51 [ArtB]
JG: one change that is coming soon for WPT is a self-contained Python environment
08:02:59 [ArtB]
… and that means dropping PHP
08:03:16 [ArtB]
… thinks this will make some tests easier to write
08:03:30 [ArtB]
s/thinks this/think this/
08:03:44 [ArtB]
… This eliminates installing some 3rd party stuff
08:04:19 [ArtB]
… Now have to clone the repo, install several packages, edit a host file
08:04:37 [ArtB]
… But with the changes, just run one Python script
08:05:31 [ArtB]
… and then access the tests via a browser
08:05:56 [ArtB]
… (f.ex. web-platform-test:8000/websockets/)
08:06:07 [taocai]
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08:06:16 [ArtB]
… So can run the test suite locally
08:06:20 [ArtB]
Travis: Sweet!
08:06:35 [ArtB]
JG: script is on GH
08:06:43 [cwdoh]
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08:06:50 [ArtB]
… as well as the README file
08:07:13 [ArtB]
… If you need a complex test (e.g. multiple domains or ports), might need ServerSide.md
08:07:27 [ArtB]
s/might need/might need to read/
08:07:54 [ArtB]
… There is also a "Pipes" feature
08:08:15 [ArtB]
… they can be used to do things like changing headers
08:08:33 [glenn]
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08:08:50 [ArtB]
… Useful for XHR testing (e.g. if need to wait for the file to get loaded)
08:09:47 [ArtB]
… Instead of hardcoding domains or ports, use the templates syntax
08:10:12 [ArtB]
… and the replacement will occur (i.e. template resolved) when the tests are run
08:10:22 [myakura]
s/ServerSide/server-side/
08:11:10 [ArtB]
JG: we have "asis" file support
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08:11:42 [ArtB]
… and can also script the server via .py files
08:12:03 [ArtB]
… < see "py files" in the documentation >
08:12:46 [ArtB]
JG: the documentation includes some examples
08:12:57 [ArtB]
https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/jgraham/python_review_2/server-side.md
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08:13:44 [ArtB]
< Applause for James! >
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08:14:53 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:14:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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08:58:18 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:58:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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