IRC log of webapps on 2013-11-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-irc

00:58:02 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, this log will span midnight

00:58:02 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'this log will span midnight', ArtB. Try /msg RRSAgent help

00:58:12 [ArtB]

Meeting: WebApps F2F Meeting @ TPAC 2013

00:58:33 [ArtB]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2013Meeting#Agenda_Tuesday_November_12

00:58:42 [ArtB]

Chair: Art, Chaals

00:58:47 [ArtB]

ScribeNick: ArtB

00:58:50 [ArtB]

Scribe: Art

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01:07:26 [Arno]

Present+ Arnaud_Braud

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01:09:58 [ArtB]

Present+ Art_Barstow, Charles_Nevile, Travis_Leithead, Adrian_Bateman, Eliot_Graff, Xiaoqian_Wu, Gary_Kacmarcik

01:10:05 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make log Public

01:10:10 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

01:10:10 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

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01:11:05 [ArtB]

zakim, call shenzhen

01:11:05 [Zakim]

ok, ArtB; the call is being made

01:11:06 [Zakim]

IA_WebApps()7:00PM has now started

01:11:08 [Zakim]

+Shenzhen

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01:12:29 [ArtB]

Present+ Adam_Boyet, Ryosuke_Niwa

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01:16:59 [ArtB]

zakim, who's here?

01:16:59 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Shenzhen

01:17:00 [Zakim]

On IRC I see lmcliste_, seo, a12u, Dayang, jhmoon, hoyang, kawai, wyh, plh, xiaoqian, ijongcheol, cwdoh, tobie, kurosawa, RRSAgent, edoyle, Zakim, byungjung, johnny, dom, Lachy,

01:17:00 [Zakim]

... ArtB, Arno, glenn, Marcus_Altman___, Takahiro_, sgalineau, darobin

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Present+ Jungkee_Song

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01:18:10 [ArtB]

Present+ Takayoshi_Kochi

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01:18:43 [ArtB]

Topic: Admin, Agenda Setting

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01:20:01 [ArtB]

AB: this morning we will talk about Web Components

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01:20:10 [ArtB]

… Dominic will join us from Mtn View

01:20:32 [ArtB]

s/Dominic will join us/Dimitri will join us/

01:20:40 [ArtB]

… and Dominc from Tokyo

01:21:04 [ArtB]

… After the morning break we will talk about Testing and Interop

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01:21:12 [ArtB]

Present+ Ted_OConnor

01:21:33 [ArtB]

AB: we will start Web Components @ 09:30

01:21:39 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

01:21:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

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Present+ Erika_Doyle_Navara

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Present+ Jonas_Sicking

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01:34:30 [dglazkov]

trying...

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01:36:23 [adrianba]

zakim, code?

01:36:23 [Zakim]

the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), adrianba

01:36:33 [Travis]

Scribe: Travis

01:36:37 [Travis]

Scribenick: Travis

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01:37:31 [denis]

zakim, room for 5?

01:37:33 [Zakim]

ok, denis; conference Team_(webapps)01:37Z scheduled with code 26635 (CONF5) for 60 minutes until 0237Z

01:38:12 [Travis]

Topic: Technical Difficulties...

01:38:12 [ArtB]

denis, how do we get the Shenzhen conf room to attach to this new bridge?

01:38:17 [Zakim]

+ +1.650.397.aaaa

01:38:48 [denis]

zakim, aaaa is dglazkov

01:38:48 [Zakim]

+dglazkov; got it

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01:39:00 [Travis]

Topic: Web Components

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01:39:53 [Travis]

Zakim, +1.650 is dglazkov

01:39:53 [Zakim]

sorry, Travis, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650'

01:40:08 [Travis]

Zakim, 1.650.397.aaaa is dglazkov

01:40:08 [Zakim]

sorry, Travis, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.397.aaaa'

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01:40:15 [denis]

zakim, who's on the phone?

01:40:15 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Shenzhen, dglazkov

01:40:54 [ArtB]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0042.html

01:41:03 [Travis]

ArtB: Please take a minute or two to give us a status update

01:41:20 [Travis]

dglazkov: Things are mostly unchanged.

01:41:23 [chen]

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01:41:36 [naka_]

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01:41:45 [Travis]

... custom elements have made pretty good progress--kinks worked out.

01:41:57 [Travis]

... next step is a CR-ready doc.

01:42:21 [Travis]

... the basics are there, everything else is additive.

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01:43:00 [Travis]

... Shadow DOM keeps going on--perhaps this year it can get to completion

01:43:06 [Travis]

... custom elements may provide something that is simple and good.

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01:43:41 [Travis]

... Shadow DOM has been taking over by ???, who is aligning with DOM4

01:43:46 [Travis]

... also switching it to ReSpec

01:44:20 [Travis]

... I'm focusing on custom elements.

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01:45:07 [ArtB]

s/taking over by???/taking over by mailto:hayato@google.com/

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ArtB: Switching over to ryosuki

01:46:50 [MikeSmith]

RRSAgent, make minutes

01:46:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith

01:47:14 [ArtB]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0418.html -> Ryosuke's email

01:47:29 [Travis]

Ryosuki: Highlights key points from email.

01:47:49 [Travis]

dglazkov: Reviewed the email today, and want to address each point, time might be short.

01:48:29 [Travis]

... sounds like you have the right motivation, but cutting out some pieces that we care about to. We want to build something that works in both cases: same origin and cross-origin.

01:48:49 [Travis]

Ryosuki: we think the current design makes cross-origin use cases much harder.

01:49:13 [Travis]

dglazkov: I think there are ways to do it (via Imports)

01:49:19 [rniwa]

Travis: s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/

01:49:32 [Travis]

... I think you're looking for encapsulation around shadow dom

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01:49:58 [Travis]

... mozilla researchers came up with an elegant solutions for +1 buttons with trusted/untrusted code.

01:50:13 [Travis]

... was hoping we'd taken everything we wrote down and make something good out of it.

01:50:27 [Travis]

Ryosuki: our concern is with the specs going to last call.

01:50:51 [Travis]

dglazkov: There is no changes to custom elements--these specs are all de-coupled.

01:51:16 [Travis]

... I responded to your proposal, and there is one thing I don't think we should do

01:51:26 [Travis]

... the callback proposal.

01:51:36 [ArtB]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0436.html -> Dimitri's reply to Ryosuke

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01:52:22 [Travis]

Ryosuki: Our concern is more about the HTML Imports; document.register, seems fine-no objections.

01:52:38 [Travis]

dglazkov: This spec needs to cook a lot more.

01:53:20 [Travis]

Ryosuki: let's chat about html imports

01:53:47 [Travis]

Jonas: I have the same concern about how this runs script

01:54:17 [Travis]

... same concern as apple, that imports run scripts in importing docuement. Seems like same mistake with script tags

01:54:20 [Travis]

... it's security issue,

01:54:34 [Travis]

... but bigger problem is bad comm protocol.

01:54:39 [naka]

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01:55:00 [Travis]

... this the impetus for ES6 modules pattern. We should reuse some of these ideas in Html imprts.

01:55:12 [Travis]

dglazkov: You should raise this concern

01:56:17 [Travis]

dglazkov: please raise the concern on the mailing list

01:56:27 [Travis]

... there there be dragons.

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01:56:49 [Travis]

... the polymer folks were starting to work on this, so they'll have more expertise.

01:57:02 [Travis]

... I can set general outcome expectations

01:57:18 [Travis]

... imports in same origin--originally we didn't want to run script at all.

01:57:25 [Travis]

... at first imports was like template only

01:57:42 [Travis]

... then it's changed.

01:57:56 [Travis]

... we a providing a good solution to a tricky problem

01:58:29 [Travis]

Ryosuki: we're open to the idea of accessing global doc in imported doc.

01:58:33 [Travis]

... for same origin of course.

01:58:52 [Travis]

... the imported doc can execute any script by default doesn't play with x-origin case.

01:59:01 [ArtB]

s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/

01:59:12 [Travis]

... with same origin component, you could use x-origin component with having to completely change the way it behaves.

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01:59:28 [slightlyoff]

q+

01:59:30 [Travis]

dglazkov: I don't have a ready solution. Need to outline how to address it.

01:59:39 [ArtB]

Present+ Alex_Russell

01:59:57 [Travis]

... with imports, you can add other imports (same or x-origin)

02:00:01 [Travis]

... we have some ideas.

02:00:24 [Travis]

dglazkov: generally problem with imports...

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02:01:17 [Travis]

... version management was an issue for bootstrap people.

02:01:41 [Travis]

... I could do so much more--provide stylesheets for the document via imports.

02:01:42 [Travis]

... etc.

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02:02:02 [Travis]

... I could bring in all the scaffolding...

02:02:26 [Travis]

... as long as we provide a solution to these guys [bootstrap] then I'll be happy.

02:02:47 [Travis]

slightlyoff: history context:

02:03:00 [Travis]

... imports work today unifies cross-and-same origin imports.

02:03:02 [Travis]

... they are the same

02:03:06 [Travis]

... just like script include

02:03:10 [Travis]

... and it can do what it likes.

02:03:13 [xiaoqian]

q- slightlyoff

02:03:16 [Travis]

... this is how the web works.

02:03:21 [Travis]

... this is how Alex has a job.

02:03:48 [Travis]

... we've thought about how web component system can create a security barrier.

02:04:00 [Travis]

... layout and script boundaries

02:04:13 [Travis]

... basically need what iframes offer.

02:04:21 [Travis]

... I think we can solve this orthogonally.

02:04:30 [Travis]

... shouldn't block web components.

02:04:48 [Travis]

... if we can decompose the essense of iframe separation, we likely can integrate a solution

02:04:51 [slightlyoff]

note that I'm not arguing that iframes are the answer

02:05:15 [Travis]

ryosuki: we thought about using seamless iframe for a solution

02:05:26 [Travis]

... except that with a lot of them...

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02:05:43 [Travis]

... there are multiple (20-30 iframes)

02:05:48 [Travis]

... not a scalable solution.

02:06:06 [Travis]

... with separate solutions for same origin and cross-origin

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02:06:14 [Travis]

... this is bad, we want one solution for both

02:06:29 [Travis]

hober: to echo jonas

02:06:33 [MikeSmith]

s/ryosuki/ryosuke/g

02:06:39 [Travis]

... we are leaning lessons doing modules

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02:06:56 [Travis]

... (from modules)

02:06:56 [MikeSmith]

s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/g

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02:07:10 [Travis]

slightlyoff: I support the idea/goal

02:07:17 [Travis]

... yes, iframes aren't scalable

02:07:27 [aboyet]

s/leaning/learning/g

02:07:28 [Travis]

... mutual auth wrt global access seems reasonable

02:07:40 [Travis]

... we don't have ES6 modules yet.

02:07:55 [Travis]

... so it seems premature to design a system before this.

02:08:14 [Travis]

... I support the goals, etc., but we should revisit after we have ES6 modules

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02:08:27 [Travis]

jonas: html imports are only in one browser

02:08:48 [Travis]

slightlyoff: seems like an alignment with modules, so we should work on the one before the other.

02:08:59 [Travis]

hober: no reason to gate one on the other, they both should just proceed.

02:09:04 [Travis]

slightlyoff: I would want them ordered.

02:09:17 [hober]

s/just proceed/proceed together/

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02:09:29 [Travis]

ryusuke: we would like ES6 module + imports to be consistent with each other.

02:09:39 [Travis]

... I don't think we need to fully wait for one to wait on the other.

02:09:44 [Travis]

slightlyoff: Yep. Agree

02:10:08 [Travis]

... TC39 process produces a completely integrated spec draft, after which it takes a little while to get to "rec"

02:10:22 [hober]

expanding on that: as we work on both, we find and fix incompatibilities. no one is proposing that the platform should have incompatibles mechanism

02:10:25 [Travis]

... something closer to CR may be approximately early next year.

02:10:32 [Travis]

... I don't want to get too far ahead of this.

02:11:05 [Travis]

... we should consider imports with modules together.

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02:11:15 [Travis]

... let's avoid crazy vortexes.

02:11:28 [Travis]

dglazkov: +1 on imports + module consistency

02:11:33 [Travis]

hober: violent agreement.

02:12:02 [Travis]

ryosuke: our big concern was if html imports went forward today, we have big concerns with x-origin use cases.

02:12:17 [Travis]

... if things slow down, then we can make sure this is done right.

02:12:33 [Travis]

dglazkov: We need to figure out what those x-origin issues are, merge them, and move forward.

02:12:49 [Travis]

... ryosuke: please drive this!

02:13:13 [Travis]

jonas: I think module discussion and x-origin are unrelated

02:13:33 [slightlyoff]

so the other analogs are workers

02:13:40 [slightlyoff]

and we don't have workers that have renderers

02:13:45 [Travis]

... want to figure out the x-origin story. Seems hard.

02:14:07 [Travis]

... whatever we create may seem a lot like iframes, or use a lot of the same primitives

02:14:13 [slightlyoff]

so if we had a RenderWorker that had the ability to have some sort of DOM view to it, that'd be workable, but again, we don't have that infrastructure

02:14:19 [Travis]

... dosen't seem like a blocker (to me).

02:15:10 [Travis]

dglazkov: Want to write down this proposal.

02:15:19 [Travis]

... sync with web app sec.

02:15:31 [Travis]

... should start looking at x-origin use cases.

02:15:57 [Travis]

ryosuke: new topic (slighty)--templates

02:16:06 [Travis]

... chatted with rafael, etc.

02:16:34 [Travis]

... want to do mustache syntax in tempates.

02:16:57 [Travis]

dglazkov: Seems just outside my scope.... may need to work with rafael.

02:17:10 [Travis]

s/tempates/templates/

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02:17:41 [Travis]

hober: You're comfortable addressing mustache syntax in templates?

02:17:52 [Travis]

dglazkov: Yes, YES, YES!!!

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02:17:57 [Travis]

... very comfortable.

02:18:45 [Travis]

dglazkov: I suspect that we'll hear that there isn't one way to do this

02:18:55 [Travis]

... (it'll be hard to land on "the right one")

02:19:05 [Travis]

hober: not married to the double {{

02:19:17 [Travis]

ryosuki: that's all

02:19:37 [Travis]

Chaals: no further questions..

02:19:39 [Travis]

?

02:19:51 [Travis]

dglazkov: Keep up the good work

02:19:57 [Zakim]

-dglazkov

02:20:28 [rniwa]

dglazkov: thanks!

02:20:29 [Travis]

Travis: Microsoft hasn't looked in depth at this yet.

02:20:49 [Zakim]

-Shenzhen

02:20:51 [Zakim]

IA_WebApps()7:00PM has ended

02:20:51 [Zakim]

Attendees were Shenzhen, +1.650.397.aaaa, dglazkov

02:21:06 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

02:21:06 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

02:22:50 [ArtB]

Present+ Dimitr_Glazkov(phone)

02:22:58 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

02:22:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

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scribenick: aboyet

03:10:32 [ArtB]

Scribe+ Adam

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03:10:45 [aboyet]

TOPIC: Test Interopt

03:11:13 [aboyet]

artb: wanted to go through specs and what it's going to take to get to next steps

03:11:24 [aboyet]

.. first one IndexDB

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03:11:47 [aboyet]

… last college about 6 months ago, Alex agreed test facilitor for that spec

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03:12:12 [aboyet]

… have ~7 requests for IDB and not seemed to be reviewed yet, anybody give status of this?

03:12:57 [aboyet]

adrianba: believe the work alex has been doing is moved away from IDB, we'd be happy with help on it

03:13:16 [ArtB]

ACTION: barstow find another Test Facilitator for IDB spec

03:13:17 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-704 - Find another test facilitator for idb spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-19].

03:13:18 [aboyet]

artb: will record action to find test person

03:13:43 [aboyet]

…. can anybody here to volunteer to help with the IDB testing effort ?

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03:14:03 [aboyet]

… curious what mizilla's level of interest is for this

03:14:16 [myakura]

s/mizilla/Mozilla/

03:14:16 [aboyet]

… need to review PRs for IDB as well

03:14:27 [ArtB]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-testsuite/2013Oct/0013.html -> IDB Pull Requests for tests

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03:14:54 [aboyet]

… 4 diff pull request during test web forward paris event

03:15:24 [aboyet]

…. first step for interop is to try to agree on the set of tests, until we get review then we don't have a basis

03:15:48 [aboyet]

… really pleading to get people to step for review

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03:16:22 [aboyet]

james: think there are some overlap in tests from microsoft tests and opera tests

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03:16:40 [aboyet]

…. other submissions are smaller, so not as much as it looks like there

03:17:52 [aboyet]

artb: thanks for clarification …. we need somebody as test facilitator for IDB, won't be able to move forward in interop until tests are reviews

03:18:01 [aboyet]

… anything else (to the crowd)

03:18:13 [aboyet]

TOPIC: Server Sent Events

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03:18:42 [aboyet]

artb: not too far off from having 2 impls passing the tests, tina has done some good works in analyzing the failures

03:19:15 [aboyet]

… so there are 5 test failures preventing from going to recommendation. from chrome and firefox

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03:20:57 [aboyet]

james: it looks like there are some common failures … maybe it could be a change to the spec then to fix both of them but depends if failing for same reason so some sluething needs to occur, OK scratch all of that

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03:21:49 [aboyet]

… it's an interaction with a second spec

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03:22:05 [aboyet]

chaals: maybe small enough bugs or known bug from before

03:22:18 [aboyet]

… just need to look in to the bugs an tina could provide more

03:22:41 [ArtB]

ACTION: talk to Tina about how to make progress on SSE interop

03:22:41 [trackbot]

Error finding 'talk'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.

03:23:18 [aboyet]

artb: what about the timeout one failing is actually a test case issue instead … will talk to tina about it

03:23:48 [aboyet]

james: have a feeling these were opera test originally … zzzz is around here could ask him

03:25:00 [aboyet]

artb: anything else on event source?

03:25:08 [aboyet]

TOPIC: Web Messaging

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03:25:23 [aboyet]

artb: have alex as test facilitator , adrian is alex able to help with this one ?

03:25:45 [aboyet]

adrian: talked to chris, his opinion is we have a good enough set of test for web messaging an there is interop here.

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03:26:50 [aboyet]

… while still some failures looks like there might be some need investigation

03:26:59 [aboyet]

… propose give me action to talk to chris

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03:27:24 [ArtB]

ACTION: bateman followup with KrisK re WebMessaging test results http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebMessaging

03:27:24 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-705 - Followup with krisk re webmessaging test results http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/webmessaging [on Adrian Bateman - due 2013-11-19].

03:27:34 [aboyet]

artb: anymore ?

03:27:37 [aboyet]

.. ok next up

03:27:44 [aboyet]

TOPIC: Web Sockets

03:28:22 [aboyet]

artb: Kris is test faciliator i went ahead and ran these, some timeouts towards the end of the tests maybe a problem with the tests themselves

03:28:40 [aboyet]

james: yeah, that looks wrong, the web sockets test have historically had issues there

03:28:56 [aboyet]

… suggest re-running tests to improve things

03:29:15 [aboyet]

adrianba: may have some issues with network configs etc. proxy server

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03:30:19 [aboyet]

… conclusion we had they were until there were changes to people impls there were issues that still needed to be addressed

03:30:46 [aboyet]

… still a question about how importatn are those test in grand scheme

03:30:55 [aboyet]

artb: what is reasonable next step?

03:31:18 [aboyet]

… does it make sense to have Kris eval what is there and make a recommendation?

03:31:39 [aboyet]

adrainba: don't think they are bogus, the opera tests added added additional coverage

03:32:45 [kinukoAndroUser]

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03:32:58 [aboyet]

… one option would be to analyze the current coverage of the tests and what the failures are a resulting from

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03:33:53 [aboyet]

james: think those results are misleading, just ran the tests on gecko and we are def. getting some passes where those results are getting timeouts

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03:34:08 [aboyet]

… just for anybody looking at the screen and seeing red

03:34:35 [aboyet]

artb: would you be willing to update the gecko results?

03:35:10 [aboyet]

james: yeah but there is a problem with running the secure tests so get timeout for anything that runs the ssl tests but can update for non-ssl tests

03:35:32 [aboyet]

artb: leaves somebody to run the chrome ones again, anybody from opera

03:35:59 [aboyet]

mmm: yeah we could run them again

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03:36:25 [ArtB]

ACTION: pieters run the Web Sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebSockets

03:36:26 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-706 - Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets [on Simon Pieters - due 2013-11-19].

03:36:42 [ArtB]

ACTION: bateman Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets

03:36:43 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-707 - Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets [on Adrian Bateman - due 2013-11-19].

03:36:50 [ArtB]

ACTION graham Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets

03:36:50 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-708 - Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets [on James Graham - due 2013-11-19].

03:37:03 [aboyet]

artb: anybody willing to run chrome tests?

03:37:06 [chaals]

s/mmm: /richt: /

03:37:08 [ArtB]

ACTION Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets for Chrome

03:37:08 [trackbot]

Error finding 'Run'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.

03:37:36 [aboyet]

richt: i'll talk to nnn about running chromium tests

03:37:49 [chaals]

s/nnn/simonp/

03:37:56 [aboyet]

TOPIC: Web Workers

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03:38:14 [aboyet]

artb: have an interop table but not tests have been run it seems

03:38:47 [aboyet]

… does any implementation implement ?

03:39:03 [aboyet]

… if the answer is no then probably not worthwhile to run tests

03:39:22 [aboyet]

james: i know gecko doesn't ….. i don't know about others

03:40:53 [aboyet]

alex: not authoritative on this topic ….there are issues with some stuff but not aware of all of them

03:41:11 [aboyet]

chaals: but does sound like worth running tests suite

03:41:16 [aboyet]

… on chrome

03:41:28 [aboyet]

artb: any volunteers to run it ?

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03:41:51 [aboyet]

nikuko: I can run them

03:42:02 [myakura]

s/nikuko/kinuko/

03:42:14 [ArtB]

ACTION: kinuko run the Workers tests on Chrome and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebWorkers

03:42:14 [trackbot]

Error finding 'kinuko'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.

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03:42:44 [aboyet]

adrianba: feeling like ground hogs day on this

03:43:19 [aboyet]

… it seems like almost every tpac we have this same conversation

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03:44:06 [aboyet]

artb: a tpac or two ago, would need somebody to step up to do the editorial work

03:44:31 [aboyet]

chaals: anybody think that would be a fun thing to do and use the delete key all over the spec

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03:46:01 [ArtB]

s/or two ago/or two ago I proposed the same thing and got bashed for it; /

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03:47:06 [aboyet]

travis: volunteers to take that up

03:47:11 [ArtB]

ACTION: travis remove the Shared Workers from the Workers spec

03:47:11 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-709 - Remove the shared workers from the workers spec [on Travis Leithead - due 2013-11-19].

03:47:50 [aboyet]

artb: it still makes sense to run the tests then

03:47:59 [aboyet]

… thats all i had for interop and testing

03:48:28 [aboyet]

chaals: gives travis some crazy bottle

03:49:23 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

03:49:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

03:50:50 [myakura]

<br backat="1:30" />

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05:35:47 [ArtB]

Topic: Testing

05:35:52 [byungjung]

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05:35:56 [ArtB]

AB: thanks James for leading this session!

05:36:08 [ArtB]

Scribe+ ArtB

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ScribeNick: ArtB

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05:42:29 [ArtB]

JG: this afternoon is mainly about testing

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05:42:38 [ArtB]

… it's important for a number of reasons

05:42:53 [ArtB]

… needed for advancement to REC

05:43:05 [ArtB]

… but more importantly, we need tests to get the interop we want

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05:43:17 [ArtB]

… deviations in impls means web devs hate us

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05:43:26 [ArtB]

… and then they write native apps instead

05:43:55 [ArtB]

… Although we have in WebApps some tests, we are having problems getting some tests reviewed

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05:44:06 [ArtB]

… and without review, the tests are not "accpeted"

05:44:18 [ArtB]

… So, I'll take about Test Review this afternoon

05:44:37 [ArtB]

[ James show slide re Reasons for Test Review ]

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05:44:55 [ArtB]

JR: 1. Check tests are correct per spec

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05:45:05 [ArtB]

… 2. Check tests are written robustly

05:45:23 [ArtB]

… 3. Check for style issues that will make tests fragile or hard to run

05:45:41 [ArtB]

… 4. Ensure tests are not using server-side script in a malicious way

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05:46:02 [ArtB]

s/show slide re/shows slide regarding/

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05:46:17 [ArtB]

s/JR:/JG:/

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05:47:13 [ArtB]

JG: don't want someone from outside of W3C doing bad stuff like %rm -rf /

05:47:29 [ArtB]

… I'll start with some tools for test review

05:47:50 [ArtB]

… Re test review @ w3c

05:48:09 [ArtB]

… Start by cloning web-platform-tests (on GH)

05:48:23 [ArtB]

… We have many Pull Requests (PR) now

05:48:50 [ArtB]

… The simplest tool is to use GH directly

05:49:01 [ArtB]

… and just add a comment to a commit

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05:49:18 [ArtB]

… GH can show raw diff

05:49:51 [ArtB]

… Just click on a line number and then add a comment

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05:50:33 [ArtB]

… (Here's an example PR: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/63)

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05:50:49 [ArtB]

… It's hard to know if a comment has been addressed

05:50:58 [ArtB]

… Also hard to know if a review is complete or not

05:51:32 [ArtB]

… Although GH for code review is ok, it isn't always power enough, especially for more complicated reviews

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05:52:53 [ArtB]

JR: we have the "Critic" tool or Opera Critic for reviews

05:52:56 [ArtB]

… https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/home

05:53:19 [ArtB]

… Opera created this because other code review tools were not sufficient for some uses

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05:53:34 [ArtB]

… it can be a bit intimidating at first

05:53:52 [ArtB]

… Critic use GH credentials (via OAuth)

05:54:00 [ArtB]

… It will try to complete a profile for you

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05:54:22 [ArtB]

… At a minimum, need to fill in your email to get notifications

05:54:46 [ArtB]

… For reviewers, can configure it so that it only shows reviews for those reviews of interest

05:55:01 [ArtB]

… (unlike GH which has a very coarse notification system)

05:55:57 [ArtB]

… Go to Filters and then Add filter to set selections

05:56:36 [ArtB]

… < James shows a Critic review >

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05:57:14 [ArtB]

… Even if you haven't created a filter, you can still submit a comment

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05:57:43 [ArtB]

… One main advantage of Critic is that it says, on a per file and per commit basis, the percentage of the review that is complete

05:57:56 [ArtB]

… it also tracks the review issues that still open

05:58:08 [ArtB]

s/that still open/that are still open/

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05:59:04 [ArtB]

… One question then is, how do I do the review?

05:59:19 [ArtB]

… Can select the commit to review

06:00:19 [ArtB]

… If a review has a bunch of commits, can select all of the commits and then see all of the proposed changes for the entire review

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06:02:56 [ArtB]

JG: If issues are raised, they must be closed before a PR can be merged/closed

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06:04:29 [ArtB]

… when submitting a comment, can differentiate "Issues" from "Notes"

06:04:55 [ArtB]

… It is also possible with Critic to make an Issue span more than one line of code

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06:05:19 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

06:05:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

06:06:08 [ArtB]

JG: if someone wants to use Critic with a PR, please let me

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06:06:26 [ArtB]

… I think it has significant advantages over GH's review feature

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06:08:06 [ArtB]

RN: is critic feedback sent to GH?

06:08:19 [ArtB]

JG: no, think that would result in lots of e-mail

06:09:22 [ArtB]

RN: it would be nice if GH and Critic could sync

06:09:34 [ArtB]

JG: that's possible but probably not trivial

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06:09:46 [ArtB]

… think it would result in an annoying amount of emails

06:09:58 [ArtB]

… In practice, that hasn't been a problem so far

06:10:14 [ArtB]

JG: those are the two tools for code review

06:10:35 [ArtB]

… The next Q is, "what should I be looking for?"

06:10:54 [ArtB]

… the TestTWF site has all of the appropriate docs

06:11:12 [aboyet]

http://testthewebforward.org/

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06:11:39 [ArtB]

JG: < Displays Slide for Test Review Checklist >

06:12:15 [ArtB]

… Use most specific assert possible

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06:12:25 [rhauck2]

http://testthewebforward.org/docs/

06:12:33 [ArtB]

… Make it clear if there is an "Expected Failure"

06:13:07 [ArtB]

… Dont use internal timeouts unless they are unavoidable. Prefer events

06:13:25 [ArtB]

… Use idlharness.js where possible to check WebIDL-derived assertions

06:13:39 [ArtB]

… External resources must not be used

06:13:39 [rhauck2]

this checklist should be integrated here: http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html

06:13:56 [ArtB]

… Check files don't have the executable bit set if not necessary

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06:14:13 [ArtB]

… Ensure server-side code does not do anything malicious

06:14:30 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

06:14:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

06:15:18 [ArtB]

ACTION: graham integrate Test Checklist with http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html

06:15:19 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-710 - Integrate test checklist with http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html [on James Graham - due 2013-11-19].

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06:17:38 [ArtB]

… I've recently submitted a PR to remove PHP

06:17:55 [rniwa]

rhauck2: do you know what's happening there?

06:17:56 [ArtB]

JG: < Code Style slide >

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06:18:05 [ArtB]

… Avoid trailing whitespace

06:18:24 [ArtB]

… Use sufficient whitespace to make sure that tests are differentiable

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06:18:30 [ArtB]

… Prefer spaces to tabs

06:18:43 [ArtB]

… Use Unix-style LF instead of Windows-style CR LF

06:18:47 [rhauck2]

rniwa: oh dear - we had a great firewall problem with the site the other day in a different room

06:18:54 [ArtB]

RN: can't these checks be automated?

06:19:00 [rhauck2]

rniwa: maybe we're hitting it now here?

06:19:03 [ArtB]

JG: yes, certainly in theory

06:19:13 [rniwa]

rhauck2: i'm on VPN though

06:19:15 [rhauck2]

rniwa: i'm currently vpn'ed in

06:19:22 [rhauck2]

rniwa: me too

06:20:04 [rhauck2]

rniwa: does staging work for you? http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/docs/

06:20:07 [ArtB]

RN: perhaps Critic could automatically check some of these style issues

06:20:21 [ArtB]

JG: yes, it does for some stuff (like trailing WS)

06:20:29 [rniwa]

rhauck2: yup

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06:20:52 [rniwa]

rhauck2: http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/docs/review-checklist.html works too :D

06:20:53 [rniwa]

rhauck2: thanks!

06:20:55 [rhauck2]

ArtB: btw, cross logged the AI on the testtwf-website issue tracker: https://github.com/w3c/testtwf-website/issues/194

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06:21:12 [rniwa]

rhauck2: is this some sort of a server issue?

06:21:24 [rhauck2]

rniwa: weird. whatup with Apple?

06:21:30 [rhauck2]

rniwa: no idea

06:21:32 [ArtB]

JG: it is possible to run all PRs directly

06:21:33 [rniwa]

rhauck2: oh, it's us :/ nm...

06:21:40 [rhauck2]

rniwa: works for me both on and off vpn

06:21:49 [rniwa]

rhauck2: but i can access http://testthewebforward.org

06:21:50 [ArtB]

JG: f.ex. http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/workers/

06:21:55 [rniwa]

rhauck2: only http://testthewebforward.org/docs/ is what i get 404 on

06:22:11 [rhauck2]

rniwa: (we fixed the great firewall problem when we discovered it the other day - had to do with a godaddy name server that was blocked in china)

06:22:13 [ArtB]

… this automated mirroring can cause probs f.ex. if a PR included bad php

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06:23:03 [rhauck2]

rniwa: what about stuff under /docs? like: http://testthewebforward.org/docs/testharness-tutorial.html

06:23:06 [ArtB]

… To get something mirrored to w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/

06:23:24 [ArtB]

… if one isn't in the "special grou

06:23:29 [rniwa]

rhauck2: that one worked

06:23:42 [rniwa]

rhauck2: just http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html">http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html and http://testthewebforward.org/docs/ I guess

06:23:46 [rhauck2]

rniwa: weirdo man

06:23:51 [ArtB]

… group, then someone in that group needs to add a w3c-test:mirror comment to get the mirror to happen

06:24:05 [rhauck2]

rniwa: just the exact 2 pages we were talking about :)

06:24:08 [rniwa]

rhauck2: yeah :(

06:24:29 [ArtB]

JG: so that's all I had re the mechanics of Code Reviews

06:24:43 [ArtB]

… there are now 127 Open PRs!

06:24:49 [ArtB]

… thus a backlog

06:25:24 [ArtB]

RB: we got about 30 PRs during the TestTWF Shenzhen event on Nov 9

06:25:36 [rniwa]

rhauck2: huh, it started working now. so strange. thanks for the help

06:25:54 [ArtB]

AB: can we get a list of PRs for WebApps?

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06:26:55 [ArtB]

RB: hmmmm

06:27:07 [ArtB]

JG: the answer is yes, but no URL

06:27:49 [ArtB]

ACTION: barstow sent James a list of WebApps' test dirs in w-p-t

06:27:49 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-711 - Sent james a list of webapps' test dirs in w-p-t [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-19].

06:29:30 [ArtB]

ArtB: we need review help with several PRs

06:29:39 [ArtB]

… especially IDB (we have 7 open PRs)

06:29:49 [ArtB]

… If anyone can commit to a review, please let me know

06:30:06 [ArtB]

JG: PR 379 is an important one too

06:30:18 [ArtB]

… if anyone can look at that, please let me know

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06:31:46 [ArtB]

… platform

06:31:54 [ArtB]

… https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/379

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06:34:18 [ArtB]

JG: re PR379

06:34:28 [ArtB]

… need review some of the XHR tests

06:34:45 [ArtB]

… also NavigationTiming test need review

06:35:54 [ArtB]

PLH: I already submitted a PR for the NavTiming part of 379

06:36:10 [ArtB]

GH: need review of async tests

06:36:16 [ArtB]

… some Opera dnd tests

06:36:30 [ArtB]

… script scheduling tests (from O)

06:36:52 [ArtB]

… preload tests (expect Simon to review those)

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06:39:48 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

06:39:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

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06:44:49 [ArtB]

ArtB: here are some open PRs for WebApps

06:44:54 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/53

06:45:23 [ArtB]

… IDB: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/63

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06:45:45 [ArtB]

… IDB: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/634

06:46:42 [ArtB]

… Shadow DOM: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/143

06:47:12 [ArtB]

… HTML Imports: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/178

06:47:33 [ArtB]

… Shadow DOM: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/194

06:48:12 [ArtB]

… Shadow DOM: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/278

06:48:34 [ArtB]

… File API: github

06:48:46 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/279

06:49:08 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/282

06:49:32 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/283

06:50:03 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/284

06:50:40 [ArtB]

… EventSource: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/285

06:52:32 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/286

06:52:38 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2867

06:52:50 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2867

06:53:06 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/286287

06:53:27 [ArtB]

AB: and more PRs for Web Apps …

06:53:49 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/287

06:54:05 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/288

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06:54:21 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/289

06:54:35 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/290

06:54:52 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/291

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06:55:33 [ArtB]

… File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/293

06:55:51 [ArtB]

… Progress Events: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/294

06:59:58 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

06:59:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

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07:45:18 [ArtB]

Topic: Writing Tests

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07:45:35 [ArtB]

JG: I'm not sure what we want to try to accomplish in this session

07:45:35 [mizuman]

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07:45:46 [ArtB]

… We are getting more contributinos

07:46:09 [ArtB]

… If anyone has specific questions about "how to test X", I can work with them 1:1

07:46:19 [aboyet]

http://testthewebforward.org/docs/

07:46:24 [ArtB]

… A new exciting resource is testthewebforward.org

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07:46:35 [ArtB]

… Having public events

07:46:38 [csjung]

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07:46:39 [ArtB]

… to write tests

07:46:43 [ArtB]

… to improve interop

07:46:52 [mizuman]

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07:46:54 [ArtB]

… It has become the "overall" name for W3C Testing Effort

07:47:02 [ArtB]

… which is great [to have that brand]

07:47:07 [richt]

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07:47:25 [ArtB]

… The site has lots of docs for tasks about writing tests

07:47:36 [ArtB]

… Rebecca is the expert

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07:47:56 [ArtB]

… and she is hosting a session about the Future of TestTWF tomorrow

07:48:10 [ArtB]

… Our test repo is GitHub (GH)

07:48:22 [mizuman]

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07:48:26 [ArtB]

… Need to start with git and how to submit tests

07:48:41 [ArtB]

… The TestTWF tutorial is great

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07:49:07 [ArtB]

… And one can always ask Q's in W3C's #testing or #webapps IRC channels

07:49:17 [ArtB]

… As of today, there are 3 types of tests

07:49:24 [ArtB]

… 1. JavaScript

07:49:31 [ArtB]

… uses testharness.js

07:49:50 [ArtB]

… I can help anyone with the harness

07:50:01 [ArtB]

… 2. RefTests - for testing rendering

07:50:07 [ArtB]

… relevant f.ex. for CSS

07:50:22 [ArtB]

… could be needed by WebApps, f.ex. if the test has some "display"

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07:50:37 [ArtB]

… Instead of just creating one test, need a second file

07:50:47 [ArtB]

… that serves as the "reference"

07:51:14 [ArtB]

… This allows Pass/Fail based on comparing both files

07:51:23 [ArtB]

… 3. Manual Tests

07:51:33 [ArtB]

… we try to avoid these because they are costly

07:51:43 [ArtB]

… f.ex. time consuming to run

07:52:01 [ArtB]

… Only want those if #1 or #2 can't be used

07:52:14 [ArtB]

… Also in the future expect to accept Web Driver tests

07:52:32 [ArtB]

… allows driving the browser externally

07:52:50 [ArtB]

… < James introduces David Burns (DB) >

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07:53:08 [ArtB]

DB: I co-edit Web Driver spec

07:53:22 [ArtB]

… allows automated driving the browser simulating a user

07:53:37 [ArtB]

… we aren't "stuck" in JavaScript

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07:53:56 [ArtB]

… We can do trusted events (e.g. logging into a specific service)

07:54:11 [ArtB]

s/JavaScript/JavaScript sandbox/

07:54:24 [ArtB]

DB: < gives a demo … >

07:54:35 [aboyet]

http://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/

07:54:57 [ArtB]

DB: Web Driver starts the browser, sets default config

07:55:06 [MikeSmith]

RRSAgent, make minutes

07:55:06 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith

07:55:21 [ArtB]

… we can then do things like navigate to URLs

07:55:38 [ArtB]

… can use Python, C#, Ruby and a couple of others

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07:55:49 [ArtB]

… FB has PHP version

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07:56:07 [ArtB]

… anyone can write a language binding (spec says how to do so)

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07:57:27 [ArtB]

… can execute arbitrary JS

07:57:38 [ArtB]

… the JS is sandboxed

07:58:21 [ArtB]

DB: we also have advanced user interactions

07:58:37 [ArtB]

… f.ex. shift+letter+mouse_drag can be done

07:58:56 [ArtB]

… really nice for doing things outside of a JS test framework

07:59:00 [ArtB]

AB: nice!

07:59:17 [ArtB]

DB: implemented in FFox, Chome and Opera

07:59:19 [Qian]

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07:59:29 [ArtB]

… we use it to test FFOS

08:00:01 [ArtB]

… We also allow it access browser chrome

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08:00:14 [ArtB]

s/allow it/allow it to/

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08:00:34 [ArtB]

… If testharness.js doesn't fit, please try Web Driver

08:00:47 [ArtB]

… There is interest from other browser vendors

08:01:06 [ArtB]

Travis: there is a 3rd party soln for IE

08:01:26 [ArtB]

DB: we hope all browser vendors will implement it

08:01:53 [ArtB]

… Please let me know if you want to chat about Web Driver or get some demos

08:02:15 [mizuman]

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08:02:51 [ArtB]

JG: one change that is coming soon for WPT is a self-contained Python environment

08:02:59 [ArtB]

… and that means dropping PHP

08:03:16 [ArtB]

… thinks this will make some tests easier to write

08:03:30 [ArtB]

s/thinks this/think this/

08:03:44 [ArtB]

… This eliminates installing some 3rd party stuff

08:04:19 [ArtB]

… Now have to clone the repo, install several packages, edit a host file

08:04:37 [ArtB]

… But with the changes, just run one Python script

08:05:31 [ArtB]

… and then access the tests via a browser

08:05:56 [ArtB]

… (f.ex. web-platform-test:8000/websockets/)

08:06:07 [taocai]

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08:06:16 [ArtB]

… So can run the test suite locally

08:06:20 [ArtB]

Travis: Sweet!

08:06:35 [ArtB]

JG: script is on GH

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08:06:50 [ArtB]

… as well as the README file

08:07:13 [ArtB]

… If you need a complex test (e.g. multiple domains or ports), might need ServerSide.md

08:07:27 [ArtB]

s/might need/might need to read/

08:07:54 [ArtB]

… There is also a "Pipes" feature

08:08:15 [ArtB]

… they can be used to do things like changing headers

08:08:33 [glenn]

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08:08:50 [ArtB]

… Useful for XHR testing (e.g. if need to wait for the file to get loaded)

08:09:47 [ArtB]

… Instead of hardcoding domains or ports, use the templates syntax

08:10:12 [ArtB]

… and the replacement will occur (i.e. template resolved) when the tests are run

08:10:22 [myakura]

s/ServerSide/server-side/

08:11:10 [ArtB]

JG: we have "asis" file support

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08:11:42 [ArtB]

… and can also script the server via .py files

08:12:03 [ArtB]

… < see "py files" in the documentation >

08:12:46 [ArtB]

JG: the documentation includes some examples

08:12:57 [ArtB]

… https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/jgraham/python_review_2/server-side.md

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08:13:44 [ArtB]

< Applause for James! >

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08:14:53 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

08:14:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

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08:58:18 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

08:58:18 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

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