IRC log of rdf-wg on 2013-10-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:29 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:29 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc
14:56:31 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:31 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:33 [Gus]: trackbot, start meeting
14:56:33 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 73394
14:56:33 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:34 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:56:34 [trackbot]: Date: 30 October 2013
14:56:36 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:38 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 73394
14:56:38 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:39 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:56:39 [trackbot]: Date: 30 October 2013
14:56:49 [Gus]: chair: Guus
14:57:33 [davidwood]: davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:43 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:01 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:03 [Zakim]: +Guus_Schreiber
14:58:13 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:58:13 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:58:14 [Zakim]: +Ivan
14:58:19 [Zakim]: +pfps
14:59:21 [Zakim]: +??P5
14:59:25 [gkellogg]: zakim, I am ??P5
14:59:25 [Zakim]: +gkellogg; got it
15:00:17 [Zakim]: +PatH
15:00:32 [Zakim]: +Arnaud
15:00:59 [markus]: markus has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:14 [Zakim]: +??P8
15:01:22 [yvesr]: Zakim, ??P8 is me
15:01:22 [Zakim]: +yvesr; got it
15:01:35 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:01:37 [Zakim]: +GavinC
15:02:21 [Gus]: zaki, pick a scribe
15:02:36 [Zakim]: +EricP
15:02:43 [Gus]: zakim, pick a scribe
15:02:43 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yvesr
15:03:06 [yvesr]: yep
15:03:12 [Zakim]: +David_Wood
15:03:19 [yvesr]: scribe: yvesr
15:03:26 [ivan]: zakim, mute me
15:03:26 [Zakim]: Ivan should now be muted
15:03:55 [Zakim]: +??P15
15:03:57 [markus]: zakim, ??P15 is me
15:03:57 [Zakim]: +markus; got it
15:04:05 [PatH]: Congrats to Peter
15:04:09 [yvesr]: congrats :)
15:04:35 [yvesr]: Gus: pfps got an award at ISWC last week in Sydney
15:04:35 [pfps]: minutes look good
15:04:43 [yvesr]: RESOLVED: accept minutes from last week
15:05:01 [yvesr]: topic: Reviewing action items
15:05:15 [gavinc]: Claiming victory with ericP on ACTION-293
15:05:25 [gavinc]: ACTION-293?
15:05:25 [trackbot]: ACTION-293 -- Gavin Carothers to Update turtle ed to match published turtle cr document -- due 2013-09-18 -- OPEN
15:05:25 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/293
15:06:06 [pfps]: gavin: can you put something somewhere showing success for action-293
15:06:08 [yvesr]: Gus: there's a telecon next week, back to normal time schedule
15:06:31 [yvesr]: Gus: before the 7th of January, we have 7 teleconferences left
15:06:53 [PatH]: :-/
15:06:58 [yvesr]: Gus: tomorrow morning we have the transition call for JSON-LD
15:07:24 [yvesr]: Gus: I just want to check the status of the documents
15:07:45 [yvesr]: markus: I didn't create the static version yet, but I can do that after the meeting
15:07:59 [yvesr]: sandro: let's wait until after the meeting in case they are changes coming from that meeting
15:08:05 [davidwood]: q+
15:08:09 [yvesr]: Gus: the same holds for pfps and PatH, for concepts
15:08:37 [yvesr]: Gus: if we can do that tomororw, then we can send them on Friday to the webmaster
15:08:43 [pfps]: what are the official steps to get a static version??
15:08:52 [PatH]: pfps and PatH are doing Semantics
15:09:16 [yvesr]: Gus: We can stop talking about ISSUE-155
15:09:33 [davidwood]: q-
15:10:07 [pfps]: OK by me
15:10:37 [PatH]: OK
15:10:50 [yvesr]: Gus: let's move on
15:10:52 [Souri]: Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:59 [yvesr]: topic: Test-suites
15:11:10 [yvesr]: Gus: where are we wrt test suites and implementations
15:11:22 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:11:26 [Zakim]: +??P12
15:11:29 [yvesr]: pfps: The semantics test suite have been updated
15:11:33 [Zakim]: -David_Wood
15:11:46 [yvesr]: pfps: We need a volunteer for checking RDF entailment tests
15:11:48 [sandro]: q+
15:11:49 [Souri]: zakim,??P12 is me
15:11:49 [Zakim]: +Souri; got it
15:12:01 [Gus]: ack sandro
15:12:05 [Zakim]: +David_Wood
15:12:07 [yvesr]: sandro: I don't think I volunteered to do that
15:12:18 [yvesr]: pfps: It was on the list of things to be done
15:12:41 [Zakim]: + +33.0.81.16.5aaaa
15:12:42 [yvesr]: sandro: Michael Schneider mentioned he had a bunch of tests from years ago, which would be good RDF semantics tests
15:12:49 [AZ]: Zakim, aaaa is me
15:12:49 [Zakim]: +AZ; got it
15:13:01 [yvesr]: sandro: he had a reasoner which could be considered as an implementation
15:13:09 [yvesr]: pfps: I'll take an action to contact him
15:13:21 [yvesr]: ACTION: pfps to contact Michael about RDF semantics tests
15:13:21 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-315 - Contact michael about rdf semantics tests [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2013-11-06].
15:13:40 [yvesr]: Gus: what potential implementation for semantics do we have?
15:13:47 [yvesr]: pfps: really we want ones that already exist
15:13:53 [yvesr]: ... there must be a document on that somewhere
15:14:01 [yvesr]: sandro: you mean real world examples?
15:14:16 [yvesr]: pfps: give sparql 1.1 has an entailement regime, they must have entailment checkers as well
15:14:22 [yvesr]: s/give/given
15:14:44 [yvesr]: pfps: There must be an implementation report for SPARQL 1.1
15:14:51 [yvesr]: ... I think that's the way to go
15:14:53 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/implementations/#sparql11-entailment
15:14:59 [yvesr]: sandro: Here is the implementation report
15:15:25 [yvesr]: sandro: Lots of green, lots of red
15:15:34 [yvesr]: sandro: I don't know which entailment regime those are
15:16:56 [yvesr]: pfps: I'll check what the situation is wrt implementation
15:17:39 [yvesr]: PatH: there is something in there, which checks that if you query a dataset you do match things in the default graph
15:17:47 [yvesr]: ... which might be useful to have
15:17:58 [yvesr]: Gus: The timeline for this is November
15:18:19 [yvesr]: pfps: The amount of effort to run these tests should be minimal
15:18:56 [yvesr]: Gus: question for gavinc wrt TriG test suites
15:19:02 [yvesr]: gavinc: The suites are in good shape
15:19:33 [yvesr]: ... We have 3/4 implementations already
15:19:57 [yvesr]: gkellogg: I started one for n-triples
15:20:08 [yvesr]: gkellogg: I could do the same for n-quads and TriG
15:20:16 [yvesr]: Gus: That's fine
15:20:33 [yvesr]: Gus: Most of the test suite work we'll need to do will be on semantics
15:20:38 [yvesr]: topic: Turtle
15:20:56 [yvesr]: Gus: the implementation report seems to be in good shape
15:21:01 [yvesr]: ... the main issue is about comments
15:21:18 [yvesr]: Gus: How are we on the issues?
15:21:23 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:21:43 [ericP]: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Issues Turtle CR comments
15:21:47 [yvesr]: ericP: Going down the list
15:22:37 [yvesr]: ... proposed means that there is a proposed response that hasn't been sent out yet
15:22:44 [yvesr]: ... I want WG approval before sending them out
15:23:32 [ericP]: PROPOSED: addres TCR1 and 2 with http://www.w3.org/mid/20131002122510.GC1493@w3.org
15:23:49 [pfps]: +1
15:23:56 [gavinc]: +1
15:24:00 [gkellogg]: +1
15:24:00 [Gus]: +1
15:24:02 [yvesr]: +1
15:24:02 [ivan]: +1
15:24:04 [ericP]: ＋１
15:24:19 [markus]: +1
15:24:19 [Arnaud]: +1
15:24:25 [ericP]: RESOLVED: addres TCR1 and 2 with http://www.w3.org/mid/20131002122510.GC1493@w3.org
15:24:26 [AZ]: +1
15:24:28 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:24:35 [AndyS]: zakim, IPCaller is me
15:24:35 [Zakim]: +AndyS; got it
15:24:49 [pfps]: +1
15:24:52 [ericP]: PROPOSED: addres TCR3 with http://www.w3.org/mid/20131002124541.GD1493@w3.org
15:24:54 [pfps]: +1
15:24:57 [Souri]: +1
15:25:30 [gavinc]: +1
15:25:39 [Arnaud]: +1
15:25:40 [gavinc]: P_NAME ;)
15:25:47 [gkellogg]: +1
15:25:48 [markus]: +1
15:25:49 [yvesr]: +1
15:25:49 [AZ]: +1
15:25:50 [ericP]: +1
15:25:55 [ericP]: RESOLVED: addres TCR3 with http://www.w3.org/mid/20131002124541.GD1493@w3.org
15:26:02 [PatH]: +1 sorry
15:26:49 [yvesr]: ericP: 7 needs a bit of discussion - what should the constructor in the parsing rule say about parsing strings?
15:27:00 [yvesr]: ... typing it with xsd:string or leaving it plain
15:27:09 [yvesr]: PatH: There's no such thing as a plain literal?
15:27:15 [davidwood]: Right - it should make an xsd:string
15:27:21 [davidwood]: +1
15:27:22 [yvesr]: ericP: OK, so we can construct it as an xsd:string
15:27:41 [yvesr]: gavinc: The first draft of Turtle was out before we made that decision - this is left over
15:28:23 [ericP]: ACTION: ericP to see that parsing rules in Turtle map plain literal syntax to literal constructor of type xsd:string
15:28:23 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-316 - See that parsing rules in turtle map plain literal syntax to literal constructor of type xsd:string [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-11-06].
15:28:27 [yvesr]: ericP: It is possible the document is already correct - the comment might have been on an earlier version
15:28:27 [gavinc]: The literal has a lexical form of the first rule argument, String, and either a language tag of LANGTAG or a datatype IRI of iri, depending on which rule matched the input. if neither a language tag nor a datatype IRI is provided, the literal has a datatype of xsd:string.
15:28:44 [AndyS]: And NT, NQ, TriG? RDF/XML?
15:29:13 [ericP]: ACTION: ericP to respond to TCR8
15:29:13 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-317 - Respond to tcr8 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-11-06].
15:29:36 [AndyS]: (not clear that in the parsing rules is the best place - rather in the formation of the abstract data model - then catches every syntax)
15:29:46 [yvesr]: ericP: 9 needs to be fixed in respec
15:30:33 [yvesr]: ericP: 10, we need to refer to the current RDF-CONCEPTS - respec should take care of that
15:30:40 [yvesr]: gavinc: I'll do that
15:30:54 [yvesr]: ericP: 12 was an objection to SPARQL PREFIX and BASE
15:31:14 [yvesr]: ericP: 13 was a comment was on a few things, including normalising bnodes for diff
15:31:32 [yvesr]: ericP: Should we have a quick resolution to not come up with a normalised form?
15:32:15 [yvesr]: gavinc: It means that we can just compare strings to check the tests
15:32:20 [PatH]: +NO
15:32:24 [ericP]: PROPOSED: WG will not create a normalized NTriples bnode form for RDF test reference graphs
15:32:30 [ivan]: +1
15:32:33 [Arnaud]: +1
15:32:34 [gkellogg]: +1
15:32:35 [pfps]: +1
15:32:36 [ericP]: +1
15:32:37 [PatH]: +1
15:32:37 [yvesr]: +1
15:32:38 [gavinc]: +1
15:32:39 [Gus]: +1
15:32:43 [AZ]: +1
15:32:43 [AndyS]: +1
15:32:43 [markus]: +1
15:32:51 [ericP]: RESOLVED: WG will not create a normalized NTriples bnode form for RDF test reference graphs
15:33:06 [gavinc]: same thing ;)
15:33:41 [yvesr]: ericP: the next three are resolved
15:34:00 [yvesr]: ericP: 19 and 20 are about missing links to things
15:34:08 [yvesr]: ... we'll need to deal with them before next transition
15:34:44 [yvesr]: ericP: 23 is about IRI production
15:34:55 [yvesr]: ... we didn't copy the whole production from RFC3987
15:35:00 [yvesr]: gavinc: It was intentional
15:35:31 [ericP]: PROPOSED: WG will not copy the RFC3987 production for IRIs into Turtle
15:35:37 [gkellogg]: +1
15:35:37 [ivan]: +1
15:35:37 [ericP]: +1
15:35:40 [PatH]: +1
15:35:41 [pfps]: +1
15:35:44 [davidwood]: +1
15:35:44 [Souri]: +1
15:35:45 [markus]: +1
15:35:46 [AndyS]: +1
15:35:48 [AZ]: +1
15:35:50 [gavinc]: +1
15:35:51 [yvesr]: +1
15:35:57 [ericP]: RESOLVED: WG will not copy the RFC3987 production for IRIs into Turtle
15:37:22 [gavinc]: turtle-bnf.html
15:38:03 [ericP]: ACTION: ericP to edit turtle-bnf.html to add quoted characters and respond with an affirmative on TCR34
15:38:03 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-318 - Edit turtle-bnf.html to add quoted characters and respond with an affirmative on tcr34 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-11-06].
15:38:51 [yvesr]: ericP: One of the example wasn't valid Turtle - edited and committed a fix for that
15:40:27 [gavinc]: +1 to not doing versions
15:40:34 [yvesr]: ericP: about 38, I think I might be able to convince the commenter it's OK
15:41:02 [yvesr]: ericP: about 38, adding a media type would mean another CR
15:41:35 [yvesr]: sandro: i understood his comment as not being a change to the standard
15:41:53 [yvesr]: s/38/39
15:42:15 [yvesr]: sandro: How do I mediate between old Turtle and new Turtle?
15:42:28 [yvesr]: gavinc: there are quite a few grammars around that aren't compatible with each other
15:42:38 [yvesr]: gavinc: so there's no such thing as 'old turtle'
15:43:18 [yvesr]: s/39/33
15:43:47 [yvesr]: ericP: In our communication with the outside world, we need a way to name this new standard
15:43:52 [yvesr]: Gus: Makes sense to call it 1.1
15:44:38 [yvesr]: gavinc: Dave Beckett's Turtle isn't the same as the W3C submission
15:45:15 [yvesr]: sandro: 1.0 is a combination of all the specs and all mainstream parsers that are out there
15:45:29 [yvesr]: ericP: we can do an adequate job by saying that 1.1 is what we specify
15:46:44 [ericP]: PROPOSED: the string identifier for the version of Turtle published by the RDF WG is "Turtle 1.1"
15:46:49 [yvesr]: +1
15:46:53 [gkellogg]: +1
15:46:56 [Gus]: +1
15:46:57 [ericP]: +1
15:46:58 [AZ]: +1
15:47:02 [ivan]: 0
15:47:03 [pfps]: +1.1
15:47:07 [Souri]: +1
15:47:09 [gavinc]: -0
15:47:10 [sandro]: Formally speaking we might call them "RDF 1.1 <foo>" like "RDF 1.1 TriG" which might be informallr abreviated to "TriG 1.1"
15:47:11 [markus]: +0
15:47:12 [Arnaud]: +1
15:47:18 [davidwood]: +1
15:47:24 [sandro]: +0.75
15:47:42 [PatH]: +1
15:47:55 [davidwood]: However, I do like sandro's suggestion.
15:47:58 [yvesr]: sandro: technically it's 'rdf 1.1 turtle'
15:47:59 [gavinc]: +1 to RDF 1.1 Turtle
15:48:04 [markus]: always finds it strange if something doesn't start with 1.0... people will wonder where to find 1.0
15:48:09 [AndyS]: alt -- "Turtle (RDF 1.1)"
15:48:11 [yvesr]: ... as it is rdf 1.1 trig, turtle, etc.
15:48:28 [PatH]: Tur1.1tle
15:48:36 [yvesr]: gavinc: the biggest change to turtle is not the grammar, it is that everything is an xsd:string
15:48:43 [PatH]: But seriously, +1 to sandro
15:48:46 [markus]: +1 to using RDF 1.1 in the title instead of Turtle 1.1
15:48:52 [ivan]: +1 to Sandro
15:49:00 [gkellogg]: +1 to RDF 1.1 Turtle/Trig/N-Triples/N-Quads
15:49:07 [Souri]: +1 to RDF 1.1 *
15:49:14 [yvesr]: Gus: it's a bit long, but very descriptive and very clear
15:49:30 [ivan]: do we change the document's short name?
15:49:32 [Arnaud]: are we going to do the same for every format?
15:49:36 [AndyS]: +1
15:50:27 [sandro]: PROPOSED: We'll use names like "RDF 1.1 Turtle" for Turtle, TriG, N-Triples, N-Quads. Okay to informally call it "Turtle 1.1" but formally it's "RDF 1.1 Turtle".
15:50:33 [Arnaud]: unless we do that consistently I don't think that's a good idea
15:50:34 [AZ]: +1
15:50:35 [yvesr]: Gus: we have about 4 minutes left - we can do this proposal and then close this call
15:50:38 [yvesr]: +1
15:50:38 [ericP]: +1
15:50:42 [gkellogg]: +1
15:50:43 [gavinc]: +1
15:50:43 [Gus]: +1
15:50:45 [sandro]: +1
15:50:55 [davidwood]: +1
15:51:00 [Arnaud]: -0
15:51:01 [Souri]: +1
15:51:19 [yvesr]: Gus: I suggest we adapt all the titles of the documents now
15:51:27 [gavinc]: Arnaud, I'll do it for everything I'm editing... so yeah, that's all the new syntaxes ;)
15:51:40 [ivan]: q+
15:51:44 [yvesr]: sandro: the bibliography needs to be changed as well
15:51:51 [ivan]: zakim, unmute ivan
15:51:51 [Zakim]: Ivan should no longer be muted
15:51:52 [yvesr]: gavinc: I'll update the titles and bibliography
15:52:02 [yvesr]: ACTION: gavinc to update documents and bibliography
15:52:02 [trackbot]: Error finding 'gavinc'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.
15:52:10 [yvesr]: ACTION: gavin to update documents and bibliography
15:52:11 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-319 - Update documents and bibliography [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-11-06].
15:52:12 [sandro]: RESOLVED: We'll use names like "RDF 1.1 Turtle" for Turtle, TriG, N-Triples, N-Quads. Okay to informally call it "Turtle 1.1" but formally it's "RDF 1.1 Turtle".
15:52:17 [ericP]: ACTION: ericP to respond to TCR33 with the string identifier for the version of Turtle published by the RDF WG is "RDF 1.1 Turtle"
15:52:18 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-320 - Respond to tcr33 with the string identifier for the version of turtle published by the rdf wg is "rdf 1.1 turtle" [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-11-06].
15:53:15 [ivan]: ack ivan
15:53:30 [yvesr]: Gus: we didn't get to Antoine's dataset
15:53:48 [yvesr]: Gus: let's talk about it next week
15:54:02 [yvesr]: Gus: I hope we can get a complete draft of the primer in the next couple of weeks
15:54:07 [yvesr]: Gus: let's adjourn
15:54:24 [Zakim]: -Ivan
15:54:25 [AZ]: buy
15:54:26 [Zakim]: -David_Wood
15:54:26 [Zakim]: -gkellogg
15:54:26 [yvesr]: Gus: hopefully the transition meeting will go well!
15:54:33 [Zakim]: -yvesr
15:54:35 [Zakim]: -AZ
15:54:36 [Zakim]: -Arnaud
15:54:49 [Zakim]: -Souri
15:54:52 [Zakim]: -Guus_Schreiber
15:55:06 [Zakim]: -markus
15:55:10 [Zakim]: -Sandro
15:55:12 [Zakim]: -EricP
15:55:14 [pfps]: one call to transition them, and in the darkness publish them?
15:55:15 [gavinc]: PatH: Zakim Bridge +1.617.761.6200, conference 7332 ("RDFC")
15:55:23 [Zakim]: -PatH
15:55:28 [Zakim]: -GavinC
15:55:40 [yvesr]: trackbot, end meeting
15:55:40 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
15:55:40 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, Ivan, pfps, gkellogg, PatH, Arnaud, yvesr, Sandro, GavinC, EricP, David_Wood, markus, Souri, +33.0.81.16.5aaaa, AZ, AndyS
15:55:48 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:55:48 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
15:55:49 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: pfps to contact Michael about RDF semantics tests [1]
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-13-21
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ericP to see that parsing rules in Turtle map plain literal syntax to literal constructor of type xsd:string [2]
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-28-23
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ericP to respond to TCR8 [3]
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-29-13
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ericP to edit turtle-bnf.html to add quoted characters and respond with an affirmative on TCR34 [4]
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-38-03
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: gavinc to update documents and bibliography [5]
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-52-02
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: gavin to update documents and bibliography [6]
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-52-10
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ericP to respond to TCR33 with the string identifier for the version of Turtle published by the RDF WG is "RDF 1.1 Turtle" [7]
15:55:49 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-52-17
15:56:05 [Zakim]: -AndyS