IRC log of wai-wcag on 2013-10-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-wai-wcag-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs public

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Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG

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ok, trackbot, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started

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Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

15:01:32 [trackbot]

Date: 15 October 2013

15:01:47 [Zakim]

+Kathy_Wahlbin

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+Sailesh_Panchang

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+Peter_Korn

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+??P21

15:02:17 [MichaelC]

zakim, ??P21 is Michael_Cooper

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+Michael_Cooper; got it

15:02:37 [MichaelC]

zakim, aaaa is Kathleen_Anderson

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+Kathleen_Anderson; got it

15:02:48 [MichaelC]

zakim, Microsoft is Cherie_Eckholm

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+Cherie_Eckholm; got it

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Zakim, who is here?

15:02:59 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Kathleen_Anderson, Cherie_Eckholm, Kathy_Wahlbin, Sailesh_Panchang, Peter_Korn, Michael_Cooper

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On IRC I see korn, Kathy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Joshue, MichaelC, trackbot

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+David_MacDonald

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+Katie_Haritos-Shea

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+[IPcaller]

15:06:16 [Joshue108]

zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue

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+Joshue; got it

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+Marc_Johlic

15:08:50 [David]

scribe:David

15:09:03 [Joshue108]

agenda + https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/

15:09:11 [Joshue108]

agenda + https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Techsreview15thOct2013/

15:11:17 [Joshue108]

zakim, take up item 1

15:11:17 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/" taken up [from Joshue108]

15:11:39 [Joshue108]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Category:Techniques/HTML/Using-heading_tags_to_markup_row-header_cells_that_group_rows_in_a_data_table

15:12:01 [David]

Topic: #8 headings in tables...

15:13:01 [David]

Comments from steve and email list comments on this issue...

15:14:08 [David]

Josh has a list of uri's and research..will get push back if using no data information in a table...

15:15:13 [Joshue108]

HTML5 Spec advice on data tables:

15:15:17 [Joshue108]

http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular-data.html#the-th-element

15:16:51 [David]

Shailesh... feels that it works, and other blind users ... html5 does not allow headers to do non th header cells but html4 does...

15:19:45 [David]

SP: In html5 headers attribute cnnot reference a TD, but can do it with TH, unlike HTML4... firefox now does not allow this now...

15:19:59 [Joshue108]

zakim, queue?

15:19:59 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

15:20:28 [David]

scope on TD in HTML5SP:

15:21:44 [David]

SP: Reason to technique... large number of rows... heading markup helps break things up.

15:22:47 [David]

SP: Developers don't like headers IDs... want to simplify...

15:23:50 [Joshue108]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/IssueTableHeaders

15:23:51 [David]

Joshue: Chair hat off... it is a hack...Table

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15:24:52 [David]

q+

15:24:56 [Joshue108]

ack David

15:25:20 [Joshue108]

DMacD: Recently I find both SRs do well with multiple levels of headings.

15:25:32 [Joshue108]

DMacD: They do fine without the headers and IDs.

15:25:49 [Joshue108]

DMacD: JAWS and NVDA tend to get it right.

15:26:15 [Ryladog]

NOTE: Minutes have not been recorded on WCAG WAI GL minutes web page since April 2013. Here: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/minutes-history.php

15:30:39 [David]

leave this technique open

15:31:57 [David]

Topic: HTML and XHTML Techniques - H63: Using the scope attribute to associate header cells and data cells in data tables - re-written Please give us your feedback on the following as a potential new technique.

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15:37:21 [Joshue108]

+q

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ack me

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rrsagent, make minutes

15:39:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn

15:39:58 [David]

SP: Assistive technologies mess up table row headers... if you nagivate to column 1 then all the headers above are announced...

15:40:38 [Joshue108]

DMacD: Sailesh are you saying explicitly using scope fixes this?

15:40:42 [Zakim]

+James_Nurthen

15:40:52 [Joshue108]

SP:Yes

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+q

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ack me

15:42:18 [Joshue108]

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/results

15:42:20 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:42:25 [Joshue108]

H63: Using the scope attribute to associate header cells and data cells in data tables - re-written

15:42:31 [kerstin]

zakim, ipcaller is me

15:42:31 [Zakim]

+kerstin; got it

15:42:45 [kerstin]

zakim, mute me

15:42:45 [Zakim]

kerstin should now be muted

15:43:02 [David]

Talkikng about item number 9 on survey... h63 scope use... need to add scope... manages user experience

15:44:17 [David]

SP proposed modification... should explicitly use scope for row and columns... helps avoid screen readers

15:49:06 [Joshue108]

HTML and XHTML Techniques - H51: Using table markup to present tabular information - amendment

15:49:13 [David]

Resolution: leave open... Sailesh put up examples with and without scope come back to this

15:51:24 [Ryladog]

I do not like requiring scope - I like it as an option, as well as the Header/ID - this is too well established to let it die b/c some are not supporting

15:52:02 [David]

Soluton: leave open... Shailesh dropped from call

15:52:02 [Joshue108]

General Techniques - Including and playing dialogue only subtitles encoded in the closed caption stream of video

15:53:36 [Joshue108]

zakim, queue?

15:53:36 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

15:54:38 [David]

ACTION: Josh to provide feedback to Andre B.

15:54:38 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-222 - Provide feedback to andre b. [on Joshue O Connor - due 2013-10-22].

15:58:17 [David]

Michael: willing to bend to consensus... don't know how useful it is... it probably works but

15:58:35 [Joshue108]

ack Sail

15:59:59 [David]

James: seems consensus is that it can be done but not the best way to do it.

16:00:19 [David]

Add to editors call agenda

16:00:42 [David]

RESOLUTION: leave open to discuss on editors cal

16:00:49 [Joshue108]

HTML and XHTML Techniques - Using table row grouping to associate data cells with header cells in data tables

16:00:52 [David]

s/cal/call

16:03:11 [Joshue108]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2-techs/2012Jan/0001.html

16:04:12 [Zakim]

-Sailesh_Panchang

16:04:30 [kerstin]

+1 for quoting David on that

16:04:35 [David]

Yes...

16:04:45 [Joshue108]

http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-tbody-element

16:05:41 [David]

DavidMacD. we would rather people use their accessibility budgets doing things that fix accessibility, rather than things that look good for people looking at the code

16:07:41 [David]

ACTION: Cathy to provide looking at row group and colgroup in html5

16:07:41 [trackbot]

Error finding 'Cathy'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.

16:08:04 [David]

ACTION: Kathy to provide looking at row group and colgroup in html5

16:08:05 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-223 - Provide looking at row group and colgroup in html5 [on Kathleen Wahlbin - due 2013-10-22].

16:08:28 [Joshue108]

zakim, take up item 2

16:08:28 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Techsreview15thOct2013/" taken up [from Joshue108]

16:09:16 [Joshue108]

. Update to Identifying valid range information with the aria-valuemin and aria-valuemax properties

16:09:54 [David]

Josh: looks like people want to remove it...

16:09:59 [Joshue108]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/ARIA3:_Identifying_valid_range_information_with_the_aria-valuemin_and_aria-valuemax_properties

16:10:25 [David]

James: Browsers expose it but AT does nothing

16:11:24 [David]

Josh: can we park it maybe work on it later if AT supports increases?

16:12:23 [David]

James: test has problems... because

16:12:41 [David]

user agents shouldn't infor the user... should be AT to do that

16:13:38 [David]

James: if you can fix it on the fly... do so... michael?

16:16:54 [David]

RESOLUTION: remove ARIA3: Identifying valid range information with the aria-valuemin and aria-valuemax properties park it for edits until needed...not a priority... due to lack of AT support

16:19:21 [Joshue108]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_name_regions_and_landmarks

16:20:18 [David]

q+

16:20:31 [Joshue108]

+q

16:20:37 [Joshue108]

ack da

16:21:06 [marcjohlic]

From another Landmark technique we have: "Landmark roles (or "landmarks") programmatically identify sections of a page. Landmarks help assistive technology (AT) users orient themselves to a page and help them navigate easily to various sections of a page. "

16:21:32 [Zakim]

-Cherie_Eckholm

16:21:37 [Joshue108]

-q

16:24:22 [David]

Cathy: Change example one to a NAV that has more than one, nd this is distinguishing them

16:27:29 [MichaelC]

regrets+ Alan_Smith

16:27:57 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:27:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC

16:28:30 [MichaelC]

regrets+ Andrew_Kirkpatrick

16:28:36 [MichaelC]

chair: Joshue_O_Connor

16:29:34 [David]

RESOLUTION: accept as amended http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_name_regions_and_landmarks

16:30:10 [Zakim]

-Joshue

16:30:19 [Zakim]

-Peter_Korn

16:30:21 [kerstin]

bye

16:30:22 [Zakim]

-James_Nurthen

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-Kathy_Wahlbin

16:30:23 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

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-Kathleen_Anderson

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-Marc_Johlic

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-kerstin

16:30:31 [David]

Zakim, list attendees if everyone has not left

16:30:31 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'list attendees if everyone has not left', David

16:30:45 [David]

zakim, bye

16:30:45 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.910.278.aaaa, Kathy_Wahlbin, Sailesh_Panchang, Peter_Korn, Michael_Cooper, Kathleen_Anderson, Cherie_Eckholm, David_MacDonald,

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... Katie_Haritos-Shea, Joshue, Marc_Johlic, James_Nurthen, kerstin

16:30:57 [David]

rrsagent, make log public

16:31:11 [David]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:31:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html David

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