IRC log of ldp on 2013-10-14
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:58:18 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #ldp
- 13:58:18 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/14-ldp-irc
- 13:58:20 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 13:58:20 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #ldp
- 13:58:22 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be LDP
- 13:58:22 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
- 13:58:23 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
- 13:58:23 [trackbot]
- Date: 14 October 2013
- 14:00:15 [Zakim]
- SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started
- 14:00:22 [Zakim]
- +??P20
- 14:00:32 [Zakim]
- +Arnaud
- 14:01:16 [Zakim]
- + +1.857.928.aaaa
- 14:01:28 [betehess]
- Zakim, aaaa is Alexandre
- 14:01:28 [Zakim]
- +Alexandre; got it
- 14:01:34 [Zakim]
- + +1.919.306.aabb
- 14:02:00 [betehess]
- Zakim, aabb is SteveS
- 14:02:00 [Zakim]
- +SteveS; got it
- 14:02:35 [stevebattle6]
- zakim, who is on the line
- 14:02:35 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who is on the line', stevebattle6
- 14:02:35 [SteveS]
- SteveS has joined #ldp
- 14:02:39 [betehess]
- Zakim, mute Alexandre
- 14:02:39 [Zakim]
- Alexandre should now be muted
- 14:02:54 [Zakim]
- +JohnArwe
- 14:03:00 [JohnArwe]
- JohnArwe has joined #ldp
- 14:03:03 [Arnaud]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 14:03:03 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P20, Arnaud, Alexandre (muted), SteveS, JohnArwe
- 14:03:13 [stevebattle6]
- zakim, p20 is me
- 14:03:13 [Zakim]
- sorry, stevebattle6, I do not recognize a party named 'p20'
- 14:03:22 [stevebattle6]
- zakim, ??p20 is me
- 14:03:22 [Zakim]
- +stevebattle6; got it
- 14:04:18 [JohnArwe]
- regrets: sandro
- 14:04:35 [betehess]
- scribe: Alexandre
- 14:04:43 [krp]
- krp has joined #ldp
- 14:04:43 [betehess]
- scribenick: betehess
- 14:04:53 [betehess]
- Zakim, please make minutes
- 14:04:53 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'please make minutes', betehess
- 14:05:00 [betehess]
- RRSAgent, please make minutes
- 14:05:00 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/14-ldp-minutes.html betehess
- 14:05:36 [Ashok]
- Ashok has joined #ldp
- 14:05:49 [Ashok]
- zakim, code?
- 14:05:49 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Ashok
- 14:05:52 [betehess]
- you guys need to ask the team contact to put the publication on /TR
- 14:06:07 [betehess]
- chair: Arnaud
- 14:06:20 [betehess]
- Arnaud: let's start with the minutes of last meeting
- 14:06:24 [betehess]
- ... can be approved?
- 14:06:40 [Zakim]
- +Ashok_Malhotra
- 14:06:43 [Zakim]
- +??P13
- 14:06:50 [krp]
- zakim, ??P13 is me
- 14:06:50 [Zakim]
- +krp; got it
- 14:06:52 [betehess]
- ... there were some resolutions
- 14:06:54 [betehess]
- ... hope we captured them well
- 14:07:04 [stevebattle6]
- no objections from me.
- 14:07:23 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- BartvanLeeuwen has joined #ldp
- 14:07:29 [betehess]
- APPROVED: minutes from last week
- 14:07:41 [betehess]
- Arnaud: is that a holyday?
- 14:08:10 [betehess]
- ... hope it won't be a holyday next week, we'll have a call
- 14:08:30 [betehess]
- ... are there any actions we can dispose of somehow?
- 14:08:34 [betehess]
- ... we don't have too many
- 14:08:40 [betehess]
- ... getting better at it
- 14:08:49 [betehess]
- ... let's go with agenda
- 14:09:15 [Zakim]
- +bblfish
- 14:09:16 [betehess]
- ... last time, JohnArwe pointed it us at a diff in Mercurial
- 14:09:38 [bblfish]
- hi
- 14:09:41 [betehess]
- ... would like to get this officially this in
- 14:09:57 [Arnaud]
- Proposal: Change following to informative (re: redefining HTTP), diff: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/rev/eeff2a51723d
- 14:10:18 [stevebattle6]
- +1
- 14:10:20 [betehess]
- Arnaud: people should have had time to review it
- 14:10:23 [Zakim]
- -krp
- 14:10:38 [Zakim]
- +??P26
- 14:10:51 [JohnArwe]
- +1
- 14:10:53 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- Zakim, ??P26 is me
- 14:10:53 [Zakim]
- +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
- 14:11:07 [betehess]
- +0
- 14:11:46 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- +0
- 14:12:01 [JohnArwe]
- (Steve Speicher having IRC trouble ... voice +1)
- 14:12:04 [betehess]
- q+
- 14:12:10 [betehess]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 14:12:10 [Zakim]
- sorry, betehess, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
- 14:12:14 [betehess]
- Zakim, unmute Alexandre
- 14:12:14 [Zakim]
- Alexandre should no longer be muted
- 14:13:04 [ericP]
- Zakim, please dial ericP-gvoice
- 14:13:04 [Zakim]
- ok, ericP; the call is being made
- 14:13:05 [Zakim]
- +EricP
- 14:13:26 [betehess]
- betehess: what about hash-uris
- 14:13:30 [SteveS]
- SteveS has joined #ldp
- 14:14:06 [betehess]
- JohnArwe: just copied from before. anybody who knows HTTP knows not send the hash part
- 14:14:14 [JohnArwe]
- betehess question was on section 5.2.6
- 14:14:28 [betehess]
- Arnaud: we're not redefining HTTP
- 14:14:38 [bblfish]
- that remark seems to stem from the problem arising out of confusing LDPC members that are LDPRs ( resources that are docs without a hash ) and the fact that some people want members with hash uris. That is still why I think one should put it in terms of ldp:created
- 14:14:52 [betehess]
- +1
- 14:14:57 [Arnaud]
- ack betehess
- 14:15:10 [Arnaud]
- Resolved: Change following to informative (re: redefining HTTP), diff: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/rev/eeff2a51723d
- 14:15:24 [ericP]
- +1 to the spirit, though i've not done my homework
- 14:15:52 [betehess]
- Arnaud: next topic is the straw poll
- 14:16:04 [betehess]
- ... about to use those two kind of servers
- 14:16:11 [betehess]
- ... chocolate vs vanilla?
- 14:16:18 [betehess]
- ... it's just terminology
- 14:16:18 [SteveS]
- +1
- 14:16:21 [nmihindu]
- nmihindu has joined #ldp
- 14:16:30 [betehess]
- ... how to define the two modes in the spec
- 14:16:47 [betehess]
- ... do people have an opinion to help the editors?
- 14:17:06 [betehess]
- ... must decide between SHOULD and MUST
- 14:17:16 [betehess]
- ... some forms are more compact than others
- 14:17:23 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- +q
- 14:17:38 [Arnaud]
- ack BartvanLeeuwen
- 14:17:45 [JohnArwe]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013Oct/0040.html
- 14:18:02 [Zakim]
- +??P13
- 14:18:08 [krp]
- zakim, ??P13 is me
- 14:18:08 [Zakim]
- +krp; got it
- 14:18:23 [betehess]
- BartvanLeeuwen: what seems unclear to me is where you're allowed to @@@
- 14:18:29 [Zakim]
- +??P27
- 14:18:34 [betehess]
- ... with the spec right now, was confused
- 14:19:01 [nmihindu]
- zakim, ??P27 is me
- 14:19:01 [Zakim]
- +nmihindu; got it
- 14:19:08 [betehess]
- JohnArwe: if you look at the draft, I've given more information
- 14:19:09 [nmihindu]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:19:09 [Zakim]
- nmihindu should now be muted
- 14:19:26 [betehess]
- ... making difference between the server and the client
- 14:19:34 [betehess]
- ... the client only sees the interface
- 14:20:01 [betehess]
- ... you don't have to obey all rules when you serve an image for example (it's not an LDPR)
- 14:20:29 [betehess]
- ... if the client doesn't know, it's just plain HTTP
- 14:20:32 [ericP]
- JohnArwe: an LDP server MUST adhere to the defined LDPR interface when serving an LDPR. (not when serving other docs)
- 14:20:37 [betehess]
- BartvanLeeuwen: not exactly what I meant
- 14:20:55 [betehess]
- ... had the impression that I could mix vaniall and chocolate
- 14:21:24 [betehess]
- Arnaud: I think there is no mixing, it's either chocolate or vanilla
- 14:21:41 [betehess]
- BartvanLeeuwen: had the impression it wasn't clear
- 14:22:30 [betehess]
- Arnaud: if there is anywhere a MUST that you don't make, then you end up being chocolate
- 14:22:43 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- Zakim, ack me
- 14:22:43 [Zakim]
- I see no one on the speaker queue
- 14:23:14 [ericP]
- +1 to 1
- 14:23:24 [betehess]
- ... do people have preference for editorial style?
- 14:23:25 [ericP]
- i find 1 the easiest to scan
- 14:23:33 [betehess]
- ... I prefer 1
- 14:23:45 [JohnArwe]
- sandro is not here, but offline he said +0/+1/+1
- 14:23:52 [betehess]
- +1 to 1
- 14:24:12 [bblfish]
- q+
- 14:24:12 [betehess]
- ... minimizes the duplication, makes it easier to read
- 14:24:17 [Arnaud]
- ack bblfish
- 14:25:22 [betehess]
- bblfish: you need to make the different between vanilla and chocolate
- 14:25:37 [betehess]
- ... eg. POSTing anythign to LDPC unless there is a restriction
- 14:26:03 [betehess]
- ... not sure there is a difference there, it's a rule that applies to both, right?
- 14:26:28 [betehess]
- Arnaud: people are still trying to understand the difference between the two
- 14:26:31 [Zakim]
- -nmihindu
- 14:26:56 [betehess]
- ... as of now, we have a proposal to make changes, introducing those two modes
- 14:27:10 [betehess]
- ... emphasizing the MUST/SHOULD
- 14:27:46 [betehess]
- ... it's editorial style for when we need to deal with MUST and SHOULD
- 14:27:52 [SteveS]
- +1 to 1
- 14:27:55 [Zakim]
- +??P27
- 14:28:01 [bblfish]
- my suggestion: LDP servers MUST xxx unless a restriction on the LDPC of R is stated in which case ...
- 14:28:19 [nmihindu]
- Zakim, ??P27 is me
- 14:28:19 [Zakim]
- +nmihindu; got it
- 14:28:22 [betehess]
- ... the editors could have done than on their own, but they ask for input
- 14:28:26 [krp]
- +1 to 2 (weak preference)
- 14:28:36 [nmihindu]
- Zakim, mute me
- 14:28:36 [Zakim]
- nmihindu should now be muted
- 14:28:43 [betehess]
- ericP: looks like people are going for proposal 1
- 14:29:20 [krp]
- trying to unmute :)
- 14:29:27 [bblfish]
- I think these ways of putting things do not make clear how a client would know he is dealing with one server or the other
- 14:29:35 [bblfish]
- -1
- 14:29:36 [stevebattle6]
- +1 to option 1
- 14:29:37 [krp]
- but just due to preference of language
- 14:29:49 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- +1 option 1
- 14:30:21 [bblfish]
- that is in my view the vanilla/chocolate is an a posteriori distinction.
- 14:30:38 [betehess]
- Arnaud: it's not like we need to make a resolution
- 14:30:47 [betehess]
- ... let's move with the agenda
- 14:31:02 [betehess]
- ... would like to speak about LC comments
- 14:31:08 [betehess]
- ... not sure we're handling them well
- 14:31:29 [Zakim]
- -Ashok_Malhotra
- 14:31:30 [betehess]
- ... would like the team to discuss with timbl
- 14:31:31 [JohnArwe]
- The tracker's output does not seem so useful today.
- 14:31:37 [betehess]
- ... see if the changes are ok with him
- 14:31:48 [betehess]
- ... would like to save us another LC
- 14:32:06 [betehess]
- ... for the other comments, we have a tracker
- 14:32:11 [JohnArwe]
- Most tracker output lines start with (for me at least): Warning: mb_detect_encoding() expects parameter 1 to be string,
- 14:32:17 [betehess]
- ... to keep track of them and respond to them
- 14:33:28 [betehess]
- ... commenters have a period to say if they agree with our responses
- 14:33:34 [betehess]
- ... not sure we're doing a good job so far
- 14:34:29 [betehess]
- ... looks like the editors are in sync there
- 14:35:00 [betehess]
- Arnaud: issue 81
- 14:35:05 [betehess]
- http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/81
- 14:35:10 [nmihindu_]
- nmihindu_ has joined #ldp
- 14:35:18 [betehess]
- ... about membership predicates names
- 14:35:37 [betehess]
- ... but people have been ignoring my poll
- 14:35:39 [bblfish]
- we are hearing some typing I think
- 14:35:41 [Zakim]
- -nmihindu
- 14:35:42 [betehess]
- ... so I put it on this agenda
- 14:35:54 [bblfish]
- zakim, who is making noise?
- 14:36:05 [betehess]
- ... it's different from the description of the issue
- 14:36:05 [Zakim]
- bblfish, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Arnaud (55%), EricP (81%)
- 14:36:19 [betehess]
- Zakim, mute ericP
- 14:36:19 [Zakim]
- EricP should now be muted
- 14:37:23 [betehess]
- steveS: must include pierre-antoine's comment
- 14:37:23 [bblfish]
- typing
- 14:37:29 [betehess]
- s/typing//
- 14:37:57 [betehess]
- Arnaud: naming is a challenge
- 14:38:02 [bblfish]
- q+
- 14:38:09 [Arnaud]
- ack bblfish
- 14:38:22 [betehess]
- bblfish: there may be another possibility
- 14:38:37 [betehess]
- ... don't think it was added as an option
- 14:38:47 [betehess]
- ... maybe was too radical?
- 14:38:48 [JohnArwe]
- something funky with the doodle survey too. I definitely voted (even mentioned +0s in comments), but it's not showing up here.
- 14:38:52 [Zakim]
- +??P11
- 14:38:53 [Zakim]
- +??P17
- 14:39:17 [Zakim]
- -??P11
- 14:39:17 [betehess]
- steves: I've put forward what dwoods put together
- 14:39:29 [betehess]
- Arnaud: don't think anything was intentional
- 14:39:36 [Zakim]
- +??P11
- 14:39:41 [krp]
- zakim, ??P11 is me
- 14:39:41 [Zakim]
- +krp; got it
- 14:39:44 [betehess]
- ... bblfish, you can add that to the wiki
- 14:39:47 [betehess]
- bblfish: ok
- 14:39:52 [bblfish]
- where is the wiki again?
- 14:40:01 [SteveS]
- http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/ISSUE-81
- 14:40:41 [betehess]
- Arnaud: can you do that now?
- 14:41:43 [nmihindu_]
- Zakim, ??P17 is me
- 14:41:43 [Zakim]
- +nmihindu_; got it
- 14:41:53 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- q+
- 14:41:57 [betehess]
- ... bblfish, please add that to wiki and we can postpone to next week
- 14:42:02 [nmihindu_]
- Zakim, mute me
- 14:42:02 [Zakim]
- nmihindu_ should now be muted
- 14:42:14 [betehess]
- ... is there an issue with timezones and not having time to answer?
- 14:42:28 [bblfish]
- q+
- 14:42:30 [betehess]
- ericP: had questions as well
- 14:42:52 [betehess]
- [people discussing meaning of proposals]
- 14:43:10 [betehess]
- ericP: aaaaaaouwww
- 14:43:19 [bblfish]
- q?
- 14:43:42 [Arnaud]
- ack BartvanLeeuwen
- 14:44:07 [betehess]
- BartvanLeeuwen: was everything coming from lat f2f?
- 14:44:16 [betehess]
- ... was missing references to the minutes
- 14:44:21 [betehess]
- Arnaud: that's the case
- 14:44:22 [JohnArwe]
- s/lat f2f/last f2f/
- 14:44:30 [betehess]
- ... look at issue 81
- 14:44:36 [betehess]
- ... it's written there
- 14:45:06 [betehess]
- ... what we call memberSubject is the object for the membership inverse
- 14:45:07 [JohnArwe]
- last F2f minutes (day 1) http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2013-09-12 (day 2) http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2013-09-13
- 14:45:15 [betehess]
- ... led to people saying that the spec is confusing
- 14:45:41 [betehess]
- ... added membershipInverse, and @@, and those additions made everything bogus
- 14:46:00 [Arnaud]
- ack bblfish
- 14:46:10 [JohnArwe]
- w3c server is serving them "slowly" now for some reason.
- 14:46:17 [betehess]
- BartvanLeeuwen: will take time to review before next week
- 14:46:27 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- ack me
- 14:46:52 [betehess]
- bblfish: my proposal is a structural one
- 14:47:12 [betehess]
- ... was interested in quick straw poll to understand what people want
- 14:47:21 [betehess]
- steves: the proposal is about the words
- 14:47:33 [betehess]
- ... if structural proposal just add it there
- 14:47:55 [betehess]
- bblfish: ok, I'll take that into account
- 14:47:57 [Zakim]
- -krp
- 14:48:29 [betehess]
- Arnaud: people, please respond to the polls
- 14:48:57 [betehess]
- ... let's not talk about the PATCH
- 14:49:13 [betehess]
- ... even though we want a solution, I don't see it coming
- 14:49:17 [betehess]
- q+
- 14:49:40 [betehess]
- ericP: I remember sandro sending mail
- 14:49:51 [bblfish]
- q?
- 14:50:08 [betehess]
- ... suggesting an approach
- 14:50:14 [betehess]
- ... as we had conflicting proposals
- 14:50:31 [betehess]
- ... implementation feedback would help move forward
- 14:50:52 [betehess]
- Arnaud: I think there are other proposals being sent
- 14:51:04 [betehess]
- ... my fear there will be more than 2, more like 3 or 4
- 14:51:10 [Arnaud]
- ack betehess
- 14:51:17 [bblfish]
- zakim, who is making noise?
- 14:51:27 [Zakim]
- bblfish, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Arnaud (10%), Alexandre (94%)
- 14:51:55 [betehess]
- betehess: what would it take to work on patch
- 14:52:04 [betehess]
- Arnaud: I've seen too many proposals
- 14:52:14 [betehess]
- ... the problem is time
- 14:52:21 [betehess]
- ... the feature is at risk
- 14:52:32 [betehess]
- ... a ML was set up
- 14:52:41 [bblfish]
- what was the mailing list?
- 14:52:46 [betehess]
- ... people should work there to sort it out
- 14:53:00 [betehess]
- bblfish, public-ldp-patch@w3.org
- 14:53:08 [bblfish]
- thanks
- 14:53:31 [betehess]
- Arnaud: back to chocolate vs vanilla
- 14:53:48 [betehess]
- ... answered by pierre-antoine
- 14:53:55 [betehess]
- ... wish there would be more discussions
- 14:54:13 [betehess]
- JohnArwe: you're confusing 2 threads
- 14:54:21 [betehess]
- ... only roger answered to that thread
- 14:54:31 [betehess]
- ... didn't appear to make concrete proposals
- 14:54:55 [betehess]
- Arnaud: what do people think?
- 14:56:14 [betehess]
- ... is there a real need for this vanilla vs chocolate thing?
- 14:56:37 [betehess]
- ... eg. we never say "if we have authentication, then..."
- 14:56:52 [betehess]
- ... true for all kind of constraints
- 14:57:33 [betehess]
- ... we said that we can reject a request
- 14:57:59 [betehess]
- ... since we don't have PATCH (only PUT), that's a real problem
- 14:58:44 [betehess]
- ... are people confused about what's been proposed?
- 14:58:50 [betehess]
- ... we need to make progress
- 14:59:14 [bblfish]
- q+
- 14:59:23 [Arnaud]
- ack bblfish
- 14:59:43 [betehess]
- bblfish: some much change going on in the docs, need time to read it
- 14:59:56 [Zakim]
- -EricP
- 15:00:06 [betehess]
- ... the client need to know when there is an exception
- 15:00:21 [betehess]
- ... it's like non-monotonic things
- 15:00:29 [betehess]
- ... maybe put things in the headers?
- 15:00:52 [betehess]
- Arnaud: john's email list all the sentences that would change
- 15:01:10 [betehess]
- ... I think that people just didn't take the time to review those
- 15:01:15 [bblfish]
- what is the url for John's e-mail?
- 15:01:21 [betehess]
- ... we reached the LC, was exciting, but we're not done
- 15:01:32 [JohnArwe]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013Sep/0067.html
- 15:01:39 [JohnArwe]
- (also linked to from agenda)
- 15:01:57 [bblfish]
- thanks
- 15:02:01 [betehess]
- ... please don't be silent, ask for clarifications
- 15:02:09 [stevebattle6]
- Bye
- 15:02:09 [Zakim]
- -JohnArwe
- 15:02:11 [Zakim]
- -bblfish
- 15:02:13 [Zakim]
- -SteveS
- 15:02:14 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- thx
- 15:02:14 [bblfish]
- bye
- 15:02:17 [Zakim]
- -Arnaud
- 15:02:18 [Zakim]
- -BartvanLeeuwen
- 15:02:20 [Zakim]
- -nmihindu_
- 15:02:22 [Zakim]
- -stevebattle6
- 15:02:31 [Zakim]
- -Alexandre
- 15:02:36 [Arnaud]
- thanks
- 15:02:48 [Arnaud]
- trackbot, end meeting
- 15:02:48 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 15:02:48 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, +1.857.928.aaaa, Alexandre, +1.919.306.aabb, SteveS, JohnArwe, stevebattle6, Ashok_Malhotra, krp, bblfish, BartvanLeeuwen, EricP,
- 15:02:52 [Zakim]
- ... nmihindu, nmihindu_
- 15:02:56 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 15:02:56 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/14-ldp-minutes.html trackbot
- 15:02:57 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 15:02:57 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items