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00:25:31 <TabAtkins> plinss: Not today, but sometime soon, I need to pick your brain more about how to use the widlparser correctly.  I'm obviously not doing so right now, and my attempt to fix it this afternoon was extremely confusing and unsuccessful.
00:26:04 <plinss> TabAtkins: ok
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01:05:26 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: tweaking gradient syntax again? :)
01:05:38 <TabAtkins> GRADIENT TWEAKS FOREVER
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15:54:35 <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
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15:54:44 <plinss> zakim, this will be style
15:54:44 <Zakim> ok, plinss, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
15:55:38 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
15:55:44 <plinss> plinss has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0271.html
15:55:47 <krit> krit has joined #css
15:56:15 <Zakim> +plinss
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15:56:35 <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaaa
15:56:43 <dael> zakim, aaaa is me
15:56:43 <Zakim> +dael; got it
15:56:48 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
15:56:53 <Zakim> +krit
15:56:53 <Zakim> +glenn
15:57:35 <plinss> dael: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
15:57:47 <cabanier> cabanier has joined #css
15:57:55 <dael> plinss: Thank you!
15:58:14 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:58:51 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aabb
15:58:59 <rhauck> Zakim, aabb is me
15:59:00 <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
15:59:11 <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aacc
15:59:20 <jerenkrantz> zakim, aacc is me
15:59:20 <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
15:59:21 <Zakim> -[Adobe]
15:59:23 <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aadd
15:59:35 <Zakim> +[Adobe]
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16:00:24 <dael> ScribeNick: dael
16:00:25 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aaee
16:00:30 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:00:30 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
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16:01:16 <Zakim> +smfr
16:01:21 <Zakim> +??P62
16:01:31 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P62 is me
16:01:31 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:01:42 <Zakim> + +93192aaff
16:01:46 <antonp> Zakim, aaff is me
16:01:46 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:01:59 <Zakim> +??P69
16:02:09 <jdaggett> zakim, p69 is me
16:02:09 <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named 'p69'
16:02:20 <jdaggett> zakim, ??p69 is me
16:02:20 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
16:02:27 <c_palmer> c_palmer has joined #css
16:02:41 <Zakim> +Bert
16:02:53 <Zakim> +jerenkrantz.a
16:03:07 <c_palmer> Zakim, jerenkrantz.a is me
16:03:07 <michou> how do I make Zakim know that what he currently recognizes as +[Adobe] should actually be miChou ?
16:03:08 <Zakim> +c_palmer; got it
16:03:27 <SimonSapin> Zakim, [Adobe] has michou
16:03:27 <Zakim> +michou; got it
16:03:57 <Zakim> + +1.520.280.aagg
16:04:10 <SimonSapin> michou, I think your mike is close to your keyboard
16:04:30 <bkardell> zakin: +1.520.280 is me
16:04:31 <dael> plinss: Let's get started
16:04:41 <dael> plinss: Still expecting a few more people
16:04:48 <bkardell> zakim: +1.520.280 is me
16:04:50 <dael> plinss: Agenda?
16:05:00 <dael> ???: Editing CSS Sytle Attr. spec
16:05:01 <florian> florian has joined #css
16:05:09 <dael> plinss: Let's start there
16:05:11 <SimonSapin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0307.html
16:05:20 <stearns> s/???/SimonSapin/
16:05:20 <plinss> s/???/SimonSapin/
16:05:22 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:05:23 <dael> SimonSapin: We agreed to have some changes in syntax spec
16:05:36 <dael> SimonSapin: we're talking about everthing CSS 2.1
16:05:39 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:05:43 <dael> SimonSapin: updates, recc.
16:05:48 <Zakim> +Plh
16:05:50 <dael> SimonSapin: That should effect style attr spc
16:05:59 <dael> SimonSapin: according to fantasai we need an edit
16:06:03 <Rossen_> Rossen_ has joined #css
16:06:07 <Zakim> +??P89
16:06:15 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:06:16 <SimonSapin> s/edit/errata/
16:06:17 <dael> SimonSapin: I'd like to know if this spec needs another rec or if I can edit it
16:06:24 <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
16:06:24 <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
16:06:30 <dael> plinss: Taking a look
16:06:38 <dael> plinss: Is it only the generated version?
16:06:49 <dael> plinss: Bert, are you on the call?
16:06:57 <Rossen_> ?
16:06:59 <dael> plinss: Apperently not
16:07:18 <dael> SimonSapin: I'm sorry it is in the repository, I expecetd it not to be
16:07:22 <dael> SimonSapin: I can work from that
16:07:24 <Zakim> -Bert
16:07:30 <florian> Zakim, ??P89 is me
16:07:31 <Zakim> +florian; got it
16:07:32 <dael> SimonSapin: My q is how do i make an errata?
16:07:35 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:07:50 <dael> fantasai: Bert need to do the errata
16:07:52 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:07:54 <Zakim> +Bert
16:08:05 <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
16:08:05 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:08:07 <dael> fantasai: b/c has has access on the CSS server
16:08:23 <dael> fantasai: you need to put the edits in and highlight like Bert has done with other changes
16:08:34 <dael> plinss: Bert, you back?
16:09:00 <dael> Bert: You talking about errata?
16:09:05 <dael> Bert: Tell me what it is an I'll put it in
16:09:22 <dael> SimonSapin: It's about errors in style attr. to maybe allow attr. in the future
16:09:28 <dael> SimonSapin: I can make edits.  What format?
16:09:39 <dael> Bert: If you make a patch that's easiest
16:09:40 <israelh> israelh has joined #CSS
16:09:49 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:09:52 <dael> Bert: I need to put it in changes and errata doc so format isn't important
16:09:58 <dael> SimonSapin: Okay, I'll do patch
16:10:12 <dael> plinss: I clarify, you're talking about hash rules?
16:10:15 <plinss> s/allow attr./allow @rules/
16:10:20 <dael> SimonSapin: Not yet, but we're editing so we can add in the future
16:10:25 <plh> q+
16:10:31 <plinss> s/hash/@rules/
16:10:46 <dael> SimonSapin: Thi sis the same as CSS 2.1
16:10:48 <SimonSapin> @page
16:11:05 <plh> q-
16:11:14 <dael> plinss: great, you and Bert will sort it out
16:11:29 <dael> Topic: CSS Masking
16:11:33 <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/
16:11:37 <dael> plinss: krit, you wanted this to go to LC?
16:11:44 <leif1> leif1 has joined #css
16:12:11 <dael> krit: CSS Masking at F2F asked for review
16:12:19 <dael> krit: got 3 responces
16:12:27 <dael> krit: 1 was select function
16:12:38 <dael> krit: lets you use compound to select elemets
16:12:47 <dael> ...: It was on ask risk I rmv for now
16:12:57 <dael> ...: 2nd was waht a fragment is and how we can use in CSS specefications
16:13:02 <dael> ...: answer on mail list
16:13:08 <dael> ...: last wasy clip()
16:13:28 <dael> ...:usually we have short hand and extended, for this we decided to use clip-patch
16:13:36 <dael> krit: fantasia thought it was confusing
16:13:40 <plinss> s/clip-patch/clip-path/
16:13:46 <dael> ...: in the past we thought clip would have auto and shape
16:13:55 <dael> ...: a value just applies to an element
16:14:02 <dael> ...: patch has pecific shape
16:14:04 <Zakim> +??P104
16:14:07 <dael> ...: that can bet o any element
16:14:10 <leif1> Zakim, ??P104 is me
16:14:10 <Zakim> +leif1; got it
16:14:27 <leif1> Zakim, mute me
16:14:27 <Zakim> leif1 should now be muted
16:14:28 <dael> ....: there was a question where we can have it address a specific function but need compat.
16:14:41 <dael> ...:we can't change this without a lot of issues
16:14:50 <dael> ...: I think it's a worse scenario
16:15:02 <dael> ...: that's one reason we didn't have clip-path and clip share
16:15:11 <dael> ...: another reason is auto is normal- clip
16:15:24 <dael> ...: so we'd need a new prop. for auto with clip as short hand for both
16:15:31 <dael> ...: i think we should keep discussing
16:15:40 <dael> ...: and use clip-path with clip manditory for impl.
16:15:42 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:15:57 <dael> ...: I don't know what she got before she dropped
16:16:10 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:16:13 <krit> fantasai: did you got everything?
16:16:17 <dael> smfr: I'm in favor of changing clip b/c it's so bizarre
16:16:26 <dael> krit: Did you get all I said?
16:16:31 <dael> fantasai: I think so, let me check
16:16:33 <antonp> s/changing/deprecating/
16:16:50 <dael> krit: I think we should keep what decision made on clip property
16:17:03 <dael> ...: and keep deprecating cip
16:17:09 <dael> plinss: opinions?
16:17:22 <smfr> sgalineau: i have seen it once or twice
16:17:39 <dael> smfr: If we keep what you have this is the last thing that needs discussed
16:17:59 <dael> antonp: should clip-path create stacking?
16:18:01 <dael> krit: yes
16:18:09 <dael> antonp: good
16:18:16 <antonp> s/antonp/smfr/ (twice)
16:18:17 <dael> plinss: I'm not hearing obj.
16:18:18 <SimonSapin> s/stacking/stacking context/
16:18:29 <dael> plinss: That's all the issues.  Ready to go LC
16:18:37 <dael> krit: I'd say yes
16:18:42 <dael> plinss: Obj. to LC?
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16:19:01 <dael> smfr: I think we'd still clarify how we take it to HMTL, but can do after LC
16:19:16 <dael> krit: your concern dep. of CSS2.1 so doesn't block masking
16:19:32 <dael> ...: I don't think we need to clarify more b/c ??? defines how frag. should work
16:19:41 <dael> smfr: Can we find that?
16:19:48 <dael> krit: I sent it to ML
16:19:49 <dbaron> s/smfr/SimonSapin/ (twice, I think)
16:19:51 <plinss> s/???/css 2.1/
16:20:05 <dael> ???: I have a question, what goup should we target to get comments?
16:20:09 <dbaron> s/???/plh/
16:20:10 <dael> ???: Obv. not SVG
16:20:18 <dael> plh: Any other groups?
16:20:33 <dael> krit: I'll bring it to SVG and I'll send a review request to both public MLs
16:20:44 <dael> ???: Are we assuming that SVG is okay for LC?
16:20:50 <dael> krit: I need both WG to agree.
16:21:00 <dael> ???: What I'm hearing is we're not expecting outside those two groups
16:21:01 <plinss> s/???/plh/
16:21:10 <dael> plh: So we sholdn't recieve other comments
16:21:19 <dael> plinss: How long of a LC period?
16:21:23 <dael> krit: what's usual?
16:21:35 <dael> plinss: 6 weeks
16:21:41 <dael> krit: I'm fine with 6
16:21:59 <dael> RESOLVED: CSS Masking to LC, 6 week period
16:22:09 <dael> plh: Who are we asking for feedback?
16:22:15 <dael> krit: SVG needs to do LC
16:22:20 <Bert> s/plh/bert/
16:22:21 <dael> plh: Do we need to ask others?
16:22:27 <dael> krit: Just SVG
16:22:39 <dael> Topic: DOMMatrix, DOMPoint and DOMPointLiteral
16:22:45 <dael> plinss: Any followup needed?
16:22:56 <dael> ??? There was conf. about do we accept ED
16:23:09 <dael> ???; The conf was glazou thought there was resolution and there wasn't
16:23:16 <dael> plinss: And what was to split to own doc?
16:23:22 <dael> plinss: Any obj to doing that?
16:23:25 <krit> s/???;/krit:/
16:23:48 <dael> RESOLVED: split DomMatrix etc. to own draft
16:24:05 <dael> RESOLVED: CSS Masking to LC, 6 week period
16:24:20 <dael> Tpic: Writing Modes
16:24:31 <dael> jdaggett: I'm not sure how much we can get in w/o koji
16:24:42 <dael> jdaggett: What should we do?  Wait?
16:24:56 <dael> ???: Keep on list?
16:25:04 <SimonSapin> s/???/rossen/
16:25:05 <dael> jdaggett: I think it's technical in nature, so better on list
16:25:19 <dael> Rossen_: Seems like it's going in circles on list
16:25:21 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:25:33 <dael> jdaggett: I think it would help if you could clarify on list where you said drop 5.1.1
16:25:40 <dael> jdaggett: Is that was you meant?
16:25:43 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:25:53 <dael> Rossen_: For whatever reason ML has been rej. e-mails
16:25:59 <dael> jdaggett: Your posts through now?
16:26:08 <dael> Rossen_: I hope so, just see one that went
16:26:17 <dael> Rossen_: Now there should be a reply to explain better
16:26:36 <dael> jdaggett: Okay, so I think I can respond on list
16:26:51 <dael> Rossen_: Let's keep it there for now, wait for next week if Koji there
16:26:57 <dael> jdaggett: I have a schedule to talk with him this week
16:27:05 <dael> fantasai: I think I can explain if I understand correctly
16:27:12 <dael> fantasai: Just to add summary
16:27:44 <dael> fantasai: If I understand issues areoung tr was unicode defined this characters in vertical should be repl. with alt glyph, if not sub with rotated org. glyph
16:28:11 <dael> fantasai: CSS spec right now allows 2 diff behaviours.  One you typeset and apply sub.  Doesn't matter if there is, you tried which is enough
16:28:21 <dael> fantasai: 2nd option is you check for sub and if not, you manually rotate
16:28:34 <dael> fantasai: obj from jdaggett, we should only allow one of these
16:28:49 <smfr> jdaggett: you are VERY quiet
16:28:53 <dael> jdaggett: Not my only obj.  Just practically speaking, there's no reason for fallback
16:29:26 <dael> jdaggett: # of code poitns that are eff by fallback is in realm of 2 or 3 code points
16:29:36 <dael> jdaggett: my obj is that there's optional behaviour
16:29:49 <dael> jdaggett: and it's not practical to make it normative b/c it's not impt.
16:30:01 <dael> ???; I agree w/ jdaggett in part due to practicality
16:30:15 <dael> ???: It's not straightforward to see if it made sub or if it's realted to what you think it was
16:30:24 <stearns> s/???/glenn/
16:30:30 <dael> ???; Having to choose in user agent impl it could be impractical
16:31:09 <dael> fantasai: Those were the two obj and Koji's concern about not allow b/c there are impl that want fallback rotation and there are places where the fallback is impl
16:31:18 <dael> fantasai: So CSS would have to work harder to not rotate
16:31:30 <fantasai> is built into lower levels of the system
16:31:48 <dael> glenn: There 2nd part of Koji's feed back is the one that concerns me most
16:32:08 <dael> glenn: I'm wondering if we could raise the requirements so that once we've tried the execution is considered sucessful
16:32:10 <glenn> that wasn't me
16:32:19 <dael> fantasai: Generally we don't say what layer something is impl at
16:32:21 <antonp> s/glenn/florian/
16:32:28 <dael> fantasai: That's the summary of the issues.
16:32:51 <dael> fantasai: Koji also said Unicode doesn't want CSS to disallow what they're built in
16:32:57 <florian> s/there 2nd part/the second part/
16:33:13 <dael> jdaggett: On that point I wrote to Eric and his concussion was that UTC had a desire for req.
16:33:25 <dael> jdaggett: If you look at the wording they're talking about normative behavior
16:33:46 <dael> jdaggett: It's a character property that can be desplayed as a fallback, not req. no wording that says you have to
16:34:15 <dael> jdaggett: My arguement is that it's practical with other fonts that we should assume ??? that's what happened
16:34:29 <dael> glenn: I agree that we shouldnt disallow if someone wants to impl fallback
16:34:37 <dael> glenn: I would oppose lang. that prevents that
16:34:52 <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
16:34:55 <dael> hober: Purpose is introp so allowing optional decreases that
16:35:04 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:35:14 <dael> glenn: problem is fonts themselves are optional and I don't know how to reconcille that optionality
16:35:44 <jet> jet has joined #css
16:35:44 <dael> fantasai: On interop, jdaggett has pointed out in real fonts this is an edge case that is rare and therefore introp isn't that important b/c won't fundimentally break a page
16:35:51 <glenn> s/fonts themselves/font support for specific features/
16:36:05 <dael> fantasai: will either get correct rendering or not, this allows better fallback
16:36:11 <dael> fantasai: nothing author would do different
16:36:19 <dael> fantasai: It's a small case and hard to run into
16:36:33 <dael> fantasai: also a case where optional we want is better then default
16:36:50 <dael> fantasai: Don't think introp is a problem and allowing diff behavior is worth diff in interop
16:36:51 <glenn> +1 re: fantasai's statement about interop being a non-issue
16:37:20 <dael> ???:That brings us back to rossen's proposal
16:37:20 <dael> ???:Not drop 2nd part since most of the time it's the same?
16:37:22 <dael> fantasai: Let me see paragraph, hang on
16:37:29 <Bert> q+ to ask if author has a way to force a glyph if the UA *doesn't* do what he wants?
16:37:40 <dael> jdaggett: Rossen is arguing that 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentance be dropped
16:37:40 <plinss> s/???/sylvaing/
16:37:53 <dael> sylvaing: Most of the time the fonts are right so fine
16:38:08 <dael> jdaggett: I think if you put Tr into catagory above and treat as upright
16:38:29 <fantasai> Bert, yes
16:38:37 <dael> jdaggett: in that para. the points that are UTR points and ?? points are treated as upright
16:38:45 <Bert> q-
16:38:54 <dael> ...:if you inc Tr code points, it's fine to remove 2nd part
16:39:05 <dael> jdaggett: You need normative behavior
16:39:15 <dael> fantasai: I think rmv paragraph makes it less clear
16:39:23 <dael> fantasai: Right now it's clear there are 2 behav. poss.
16:39:33 <dael> fantasai: I don't think removing sent. would improve
16:39:42 <dael> jdaggett: One concern is what we're def. creating abmiguity
16:40:08 <dael> jdaggett: the problem is I think that we leave ambiguiity if leave as is
16:40:27 <dael> jdaggett: It becomes no longer clear to font designers if they need Tr code poins or if can omit
16:40:34 <dael> jdaggett: That's abd signal to send
16:40:39 <bkardell> jdaggett: it's very hard to hear you
16:40:47 <dael> jdaggett: Well designed fonts alreay inc. alternates for rotation
16:40:59 <dael> jdaggett: All other fonts should converge.
16:41:18 <dael> ???: I don't htink it's a problem.  Assumed plaform supported
16:41:20 <stearns> s/???/glenn/
16:41:22 <dael> ???: That doesn't prevent from using other systems.
16:41:33 <dael> glenn: I don't think there's a problem, agree with fantasai
16:41:33 <fantasai> glenn was giving example of shaping features etc.
16:41:39 <dael> glenn: There's no interop problem
16:41:56 <dael> glenn: There's already optional behavior because support for rotation is already optional
16:42:04 <dael> glenn: I think we're looking at this too much
16:42:13 <dael> jdaggett: If that's the case we should rmv sentence
16:42:27 <dael> glenn: Taking it out doesn't do anything and leaving it doesn't have harm.  Pref. to leave it
16:42:39 <dael> jdaggett: To resolve this we need Koji to agree
16:42:52 <dael> jdaggett: part of problem is impl doing this, it's not clear why they're doing it
16:43:00 <dael> jdaggett: There hasn't been discussion about the fallback
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16:43:15 <dael> jdaggett: So I think we should wrap up here and do more with Koji on the list
16:43:37 <dael> plinss: Is there specific feedback from Koji to help, or will we continue disucssion?
16:43:47 <dael> jdaggett: I think need to see if he's comfortable with modification
16:43:53 <dael> fantasai: What modification? rmv sentence?
16:44:05 <dael> jdaggett: rmv sentece with Tr in previous sentence
16:44:18 <dael> plinss: So you're okay with that if Koji is okay?
16:44:36 <dael> florian: I'm not sure asking this to Koji will help b/c he's not the only one that disagrees
16:44:47 <dael> plinss: Anyone else disagree not on call?
16:45:01 <dael> florian: He needs to be involved, but just getting him to agree won't resolve
16:45:13 <dael> plinss: My point is if everyone else is here we can work here without Koji
16:45:23 <dael> florian: What I can hear is glenn and jdaggett disagree
16:45:29 <dael> glenn: I'd rather leave the sentence
16:45:32 <dael> fantasai: Yes
16:45:36 <Zakim> - +1.520.280.aagg
16:45:41 <dael> plinss: That's your pref. but can live with?
16:45:51 <dael> glenn: That's my pref. but if Koji drops it, okay
16:45:54 <Zakim> -c_palmer
16:46:01 <dael> rossen I don't think he wants it in
16:46:20 <dael> fantasai: I think Koji can defer to unicode, but doesn't want must defer
16:46:31 <dael> plinss: Anyone disagree witht hat viewpoint?
16:46:42 <dael> plinss: So we have a solution and we need to confir with Koji
16:47:04 <dael> fantasai: proposal is defer to UTC50 and not say in our draft how to handle
16:47:14 <dael> glenn: I'm not sure that's a solution
16:47:26 <glenn> s/glenn/florian/
16:47:27 <dael> jdaggett: There's several proposals, not one
16:47:40 <dael> fantasai: I'm looking at Rossen_ and it defines U and not Tr
16:47:46 <dael> jdaggett: I think you need to add Tr to list
16:48:00 <dael> ???: I think we made that clear 10 minutes ago, that's what jdaggett said first and I agree
16:48:06 <dael> fantasai: That's what Koji opposes
16:48:08 <fantasai> s/???/Rossen/
16:48:21 <dael> plinss: Can someone sum where we are and put on e-mail?
16:48:27 <dael> fantasai: I think 3 things can do
16:48:39 <dael> fantasai: Rmv handling of Tr and not say how to doesn't make sense
16:48:55 <dael> fantasai: 1 leave as is, Tr can work 2 way and clarify fonts expected to proide glyphs
16:49:15 <dael> fantasai: 2 is rmv the option for fallback rotation and req. Tr to work like U
16:49:37 <dael> fantasai: 3 rmv any sentences ref. to how to typeset anything are refer to UTR50 and expect fill in details
16:49:53 <dael> jdaggett: I think 3 is what we've been discussion.  It's what Rossen_ posted on list
16:49:53 <Bert> s/are/and/
16:49:58 <dael> fantasai: That's #2
16:50:16 <dael> plinss: Can someone take actions to document on ML?
16:50:24 <dael> jdaggett: I think for each we need clear wording
16:50:31 <dael> Rossen_: Can you create a wiki?
16:50:38 <dael> jdaggett: Better on the list
16:50:39 <fantasai> s/Rossen_/Dirk/
16:50:46 <dael> plinss: Again, can someone take an action?
16:51:00 <dael> ACTION fantasai post options to list
16:51:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-586 - Post options to list [on Elika Etemad - due 2013-10-16].
16:51:26 <dael> Rossen_: I'm not sure I understand ??? It doesn't say what you should be doing.  Am I wrong?
16:51:39 <dael> jdaggett: You're right.  There's something that needs to connect the orientation classifications
16:51:49 <dael> jdaggett: If you look in spec you can find a whole paragraph
16:51:51 <florian> s/rossen/florian/
16:51:56 <dael> fantasai: For what it's worth, I don't like 3
16:52:07 <dael> fantasai: Given URT50 doesn't have details
16:52:13 <dael> plinss: Let's take it to the list
16:52:23 <dael> Topic: Shapes Syntax Issues
16:52:37 <florian> I am not sure I understand 3, because as far as I can tell, UTR50 merely describe the meaning of Tr, but does not describe what you should do.
16:52:40 <dael> astearns: We've gotten good feedback on shapes syntax
16:52:47 <dael> ...: almost all in current ED
16:53:02 <dael> ...: remaining is do we follow SVG attr. and specify positions using x and y
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16:53:15 <dbaron> I'm not clear on how (1) and (2) deal with whether implementations are (a) required (b) forbidden (c) neither required nor forbidden from doing fallback.
16:53:18 <dael> ...: or do we use CSS3 position syntax and more complicatied positions
16:53:25 <dael> ...: Benefits to both
16:53:27 <jdaggett> i think for all three proposals we need explicit wording changes
16:53:35 <dael> ...: SVG lets us have consistant shapes
16:53:44 <dael> ...: It's easy to translate between
16:54:02 <dael> ...: CSS position syntax would let you descript a gradient and a circle in basic syntax
16:54:09 <fantasai> dbaron, (1) means (c), (2) means (b)
16:54:10 <dael> ..: question is how we allow both approached
16:54:27 <dael> ...: that can be adding @ keyward.  width and height @x,y
16:54:38 <florian> s/@/at/
16:54:39 <dael> ...: that lets us sub x and y for options in position syntax
16:54:47 <sgalineau> dbaron, I think #2 forbids fallback while #1 and #3 allow it.
16:54:51 <SimonSapin> s/@x, y/at x y/
16:55:05 <dael> ...: other choice is to add shape as a function name and arguements would have a css syntax compat way to desc everything CSS can desc.
16:55:15 <dael> ...: is that a fair summary fantasai
16:55:17 <dael> fantasai: Yes
16:55:29 <dael> fantasai: I wish I had a clear idea of what makes sense but I don't
16:55:51 <florian> dbaron, sgalineau, I think #2 forbids, #1 allows, and #3 does say
16:55:51 <dael> astearns: we can do both, add at keyword to add in future and put css syntax in new shape function
16:56:12 <dael> fantasai: on thing that's on my mind is we need to have shape functions compat with gradiatient so can us both
16:56:24 <sgalineau> florian, yes. #3 doesn't say which means it doesn't requires or forbid fallback. up to implementors.
16:56:36 <dael> fantasai: one disadvantage is if you want to place...the one confusing bit is %s
16:56:53 <dael> fantasai: now that I've been thinking gradient syntax treats position as center of shape
16:57:12 <dael> fantasai: for circle and elipses it doesn't matter how you do % because posistion in respect to box
16:57:28 <dael> astearns: it only matters for rectangle b/c you're describing a corner
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16:57:50 <dael> fantasai: for concistancy, the rectangle should be like and eliplse b/c is same except border
16:57:58 <Zakim> -dbaron
16:58:08 <dael> ???: I think it matters with SVG b/c shape syntax will be used for SVG
16:58:27 <dael> astearns: I think that ecourages new shape that deals with % in CSS wy and leaves exisiting to be compat with SVG
16:58:40 <Rossen_> s/???/krit
16:58:46 <dael> fantasai: Thing I'm dealing with is circle and eliplse is concsitant with SVG so new shape doesn't make sense for them
16:58:46 <Rossen_> s/???/krit/
16:59:02 <dael> fantasai: ONly place we have this issue is rectangle where SVG is different, top left corner
16:59:15 <dael> fantasai: Top left corner of the rectangle itself
16:59:25 <dael> ???; It's not always top left for SVG?
16:59:33 <dael> fantasai: Fo what becides a transform?
16:59:56 <dael> ???: For CSS you have top left, for SVG if you have a rectangle the coordinate space isn't top left
17:00:02 <dael> fantasai: I see
17:00:32 <dael> astearns: It's certainly not an issue with circle, but it makes sense to be consistant for all shapes so people using clip could still work
17:00:39 <dael> ...: Doens't make sense to move things over
17:00:43 <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
17:00:50 <dael> plinss: Top of hour, proposals to move forward?
17:00:57 <dael> fantasai: I want to think about krit's comments
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17:01:06 <dael> astearns: discuss more on mailing list
17:01:13 <Zakim> -jerenkrantz
17:01:15 <Zakim> - +1.206.675.aadd
17:01:16 <Zakim> - +1.619.846.aaee
17:01:17 <dael> plinss: Sounds good.  Thank you everyone.
17:01:17 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:01:19 <Zakim> -glenn
17:01:20 <Zakim> -rhauck
17:01:21 <Zakim> -antonp
17:01:21 <smfr> smfr has left #css
17:01:22 <Zakim> -[Adobe]
17:01:23 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:01:24 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:01:24 <Zakim> -MaRakow
17:01:26 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:26 <Zakim> -leif1
17:01:26 <Zakim> -dauwhe
17:01:27 <dael> [Meeting ended]
17:01:32 <Zakim> -dael
17:01:38 <Zakim> -florian
17:01:39 <Zakim> -Plh
17:01:41 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:01:45 <Zakim> -Bert
17:01:46 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:01:49 <Zakim> -krit
17:01:50 <Zakim> -smfr
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17:06:50 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, jdaggett, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:06:51 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:06:51 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, +1.610.324.aaaa, dael, krit, glenn, dauwhe, +1.415.832.aabb, rhauck, +1.212.318.aacc, jerenkrantz, +1.206.675.aadd, +1.619.846.aaee, Stearns, smfr,
17:06:52 <Zakim> ... SimonSapin, +93192aaff, antonp, jdaggett, Bert, c_palmer, michou, +1.520.280.aagg, fantasai, SteveZ, Plh, Rossen_, florian, dbaron, [Microsoft], MaRakow, leif1
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18:42:02 <dholbert> TabAtkins, hi! I think I like your updated proposal. Question, though, just for my understanding - is it equivalent to adding a special case to Step 5 of http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#resolve-flexible-lengths , where we'd use a different ratio ( = the flex grow factor) if the sum of the flex grow factors is < 1?
18:42:39 <TabAtkins> Maybe, but it gets complicated when you to deal with adjusting the flex grow factor to the new free space amount.
18:42:48 <TabAtkins> Rather than try and come up with an elegant way to do that, I reworded it.
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18:43:26 <TabAtkins> In my example, you don't want the first item to end up 22.5px wide (since that's .2/.8=.25 of 90px, the new free space amount).
18:43:26 <dholbert> Hmm, OK. I'm wondering slightly because I prefer the idea of normalizing flex-grow factors (or ratios) rather than normalizing "space"
18:43:44 <dholbert> TabAtkins, [looking]
18:43:46 <TabAtkins> Nor do you want it to be 18px wide.
18:43:52 <TabAtkins> (.2 of 90px)
18:45:32 <dholbert> TabAtkins, hmm. What if the flex items had nonzero base sizes, though? wouldn't that mess this up a bit?
18:45:45 <TabAtkins> Nah, that'll all work the same.
18:46:03 <TabAtkins> I mean, a flex:.2 item won't be 20% of the total space, but that's what you're asking for when you start with a non-zero base size.
18:49:44 <dholbert> TabAtkins, OK, makes sense
18:50:30 <TabAtkins> Hehe, that's what I did. I had two version of the end of that email before I finally wrote the one that I sent it with.
18:50:41 <TabAtkins> Gradually convincing myself into my current position.
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18:52:44 <dholbert> TabAtkins, (we still need to allow the algorithm to go from "free space for everyone! grow!" to "not enough space, shrink" between successive loop iterations, of course)
18:53:14 <dholbert> TabAtkins, (that's easy enough to merge into your suggested new algorithm, though)
18:53:15 <TabAtkins> dholbert: The algo doesn't switch between those two.
18:53:32 <dholbert> TabAtkins, the existing algo, you mean?
18:54:14 <TabAtkins> Yeah, it determines total space at the beginning, and does either growing or shrinking based on that.
18:54:45 <dholbert> oh right
18:57:23 <dholbert> [yeah, I was misremembering the "If the sign of the free space is positive and the algorithm is using the flex-grow factor" business]
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20:37:25 <fantasai> plh: If you could give webreq a hand getting https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013OctDec/0065.html ready for publication, I'd appreciate it! Should just require unzipping into place... I ran pubrules as best I could, so it *should* just pass.
20:37:51 <plh> sure
20:38:07 <plh> gimme 5 minutes
20:38:20 <fantasai> Thanks!
20:43:43 <plh> I see that you use css-test-3 now
20:43:57 <plh> do you also want css-text to point to css-text-3 ?
20:44:16 <fantasai> Ah! Yes
20:44:28 <fantasai> /TR/css-text-3/ should be the shortname
20:44:36 <plh> yep
20:44:38 <fantasai> /TR/css-text/ should alias to /TR/css-text/
20:44:49 <fantasai> and /TR/css3-text/ should give a Permanent Redirecto to /TR/css-text-3/
20:45:18 <fantasai> Should I write a mail to webreq, or is that something you will set up?
20:45:30 <plh>  /TR/css-text/ should alias to /TR/css-text-3/ , correct?
20:45:48 <fantasai> yes
20:45:51 <plh> ok
20:45:55 <plh> you're all set
20:45:59 <plh> the document is already in place
20:46:25 <fantasai> wow, thanks!
20:46:52 <plh> I'll follow with the webmaster for the aliasis, etc.
20:47:00 <plh> as soonas my mailer is willing to cooperate
20:47:22 <plh> who takes care of the LC announcement btw?
20:47:27 <fantasai> the editor
20:47:35 <plh> ok, I won't worry about it then
20:57:11 <fantasai> :)
20:57:18 <fantasai> Thanks for the publication, I really appreciate it!
20:57:24 <plh> welcome
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