15:01:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/08-wai-wcag-irc
15:01:58 <AWK> Chair: AWK
15:02:51 <MichaelC> trackbot, start meeting
15:02:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:02:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:02:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started
15:02:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:02:56 <trackbot> Date: 08 October 2013
15:03:04 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P29 is Michael_Cooper
15:03:04 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper; got it
15:03:11 <MichaelC> zakim, Adobe is AWK
15:03:11 <Zakim> +AWK; got it
15:03:41 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Kathy_Wahlbin
15:03:41 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin; got it
15:03:48 <korn> Zakim, aabb is Peter_Korn
15:03:50 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn; got it
15:04:05 <AWK> Agenda+ Survey for October 8 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/results
15:04:18 <MichaelC> zakim, aacc is Sailesh_Panchang
15:04:18 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang; got it
15:05:29 <AWK> regrets+ Alan
15:05:40 <AWK> Regrets+ David
15:05:50 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013OctDec/0009.html
15:07:04 <Joshue108> Joshue108 has joined #wai-wcag
15:07:11 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see AWK, Kathy_Wahlbin, Peter_Korn, Sailesh_Panchang, Michael_Cooper
15:07:17 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:07:23 <Joshue108> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:07:23 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:07:26 <Kathy> scribe: Kathy
15:07:49 <Joshue108> zaki, take up item 1
15:07:55 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 1
15:07:55 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Survey for October 8 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/results" taken up [from AWK]
15:09:10 <Kathy> AWK: survey is on the lengthy side, Number 1, 5, 7, 10 are unanimous
15:09:34 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:09:40 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:09:40 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:09:58 <Kathy> RESOLUTION:  Accepting 1, 5, 7 and 10 as proposed
15:09:58 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:10:50 <Kathy> TOPIC:  2. ARIA Technique: Using ARIA Live Regions or role=alert to Identify Errors
15:11:57 <Kathy> AWK:  People like the idea of this but there are a couple of concerns.
15:13:40 <Joshue108> +q
15:14:24 <Kathy> KW:  If you add aria-describedby and aria-invalid to the form fields then a screen reader users does not have to remember what they heard through the live region
15:14:28 <Joshue108> zakim, unmute me
15:14:28 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:14:42 <AWK> ack sa
15:15:33 <Kathy> Sailesh:  Concerns about #10 and would like to know what the reasoning is
15:17:54 <Kathy> Sailesh:  On the aria live region, if using the role="alert" do you need to use aria-live region.  If you just use role="alert" then you do not need to use aria-live region - it works across browsers and AT
15:19:02 <AWK> q+
15:19:16 <Joshue108> ack me
15:20:47 <AWK> ack me
15:21:10 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:21:10 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:21:11 <Kathy> Josh:  what is the ways to do discover the error message; role = alert and errors message being read when get to the field
15:22:09 <Kathy> AWK:  what is the bug with aria-atomic issue.  Was this in the past?  What currently supports.  We can add this to the support notes
15:24:04 <Joshue108> KW: Well its definitely not required, so if its not done its not a WCAG error - but its a good technique.
15:24:18 <Joshue108> KW: Especially if there is a long list of errors.
15:24:30 <Kathy> AWK:  We should not make this too complex but we should let people know what the limitations are.  Maybe adding the additional information and have the task force create the technique to show the aria-describedby and aria-invalid
15:24:51 <Joshue108> zakim, unmute me
15:24:51 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:24:53 <Kathy> Sailesh: Sent the example through the email
15:25:03 <AWK> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/form-alert2.htm
15:25:15 <Kathy> AWK: here is the link from Sailesh
15:26:13 <Kathy> Sailesh: this is for aria role="alert" and aria live region, does not have aria-describedby
15:26:36 <AWK> Zakim, Queue?
15:26:36 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:27:36 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:27:36 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:28:02 <Kathy> AWK:  Goal is to get the technique passed through and a sufficient way to describe errors.  Adding aria-describedby is not required.  Suggest to the taskforce to create an example of this.  We can add note about the connection of error message to the field and link to the example when it exists
15:28:42 <Kathy> Sailesh:  It should be a separate technique.  It depends on the number of error message and how the errors are implemented in the field
15:29:09 <Kathy> Kathy:  agree
15:29:13 <Joshue108> +1
15:30:01 <Joshue108> zakim, unmute me
15:30:01 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:30:04 <Kathy> AWK:  if this is equivalent aria-live=assertive then we should add an example.  Josh mentioned that this may be confusing.
15:30:37 <Kathy> AWK:  is this necessary?
15:30:40 <Kathy> q+
15:31:15 <Kathy> Josh:  the use cases are not always clear.  We should indicate which is the preferred method
15:32:03 <Joshue108> KW: There is a reason to do aria-live=assertive - sometimes role="alert" isn't announced in FF and IE -
15:32:23 <Joshue108> KW: So there is a case, we can't cover all versions but it is important to show various use cases.
15:33:14 <Kathy> Josh:  Where do we draw the line.  Should we include in user agent notes.  This one could get messy.
15:34:01 <Kathy> AWK:  Another way to handle it, is to add a note about the difference
15:34:29 <Kathy> Josh:  The aria live region is assertive when using role="alert"
15:35:15 <kerstin> kerstin has joined #wai-wcag
15:36:07 <Kathy> AWK:  Someone needs to spend some time for the suggestions for this.  We need to give a note to the taskforce about aria-describedby and aria-live='assertive".
15:36:26 <Kathy> Josh:  I will do this.
15:36:28 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:36:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see AWK, Kathy_Wahlbin, Peter_Korn, Sailesh_Panchang, Michael_Cooper, Joshue, Marc_Johlic
15:37:00 <AWK> ACTION: Josh to provide suggested edits to http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_ARIA_Live_Regions_or_role%3Dalert_to_Identify_Errors
15:37:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-219 - Provide suggested edits to http://www.w3.org/wai/gl/wiki/using_aria_live_regions_or_role%3dalert_to_identify_errors [on Joshue O Connor - due 2013-10-15].
15:37:17 <kerstin> I'm trying to join via skype (facing some problems)
15:37:17 <Kathy> RESOLUTION:  Leave open.
15:37:37 <Kathy> TOPIC:  3. LC-2844: Out of date User Agent Support info
15:38:00 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:38:00 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:38:26 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
15:38:26 <Zakim> I see Kathy on the speaker queue
15:39:03 <Kathy> AWK:  Comment about the user agent support is not current.  This is something that changes.  Combine the user agent support into separate document.  The information may be redundant.  We could have a place where we link to the user agent support
15:39:08 <Kathy> q-
15:39:49 <Kathy> AWK:  One of the comments, the ARIA should not be handled in a different way.  The proposal is to have all the user agent notes handled in a separate document
15:39:55 <MichaelC> ack sai
15:40:04 <AWK> Zakim, Queue?
15:40:04 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:40:12 <korn> Zakim, who is here?
15:40:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see AWK, Kathy_Wahlbin, Peter_Korn, Sailesh_Panchang, Michael_Cooper, Joshue (muted), Marc_Johlic
15:40:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see kerstin, marcjohlic, Joshue108, RRSAgent, Zakim, SaileshP, AWK, Kathy, korn, MichaelC, trackbot
15:41:12 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
15:41:19 <MichaelC> zakim, mute sailesh
15:41:19 <Zakim> Sailesh_Panchang should now be muted
15:41:19 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:41:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
15:41:25 <Kathy> AWK:  The comments had a few ideas about where these should go
15:41:53 <Kathy> AWK:  edit the proposed resolution based on the comments
15:42:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:42:34 <kerstin> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:42:34 <Zakim> +kerstin; got it
15:42:45 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
15:42:45 <Zakim> kerstin should now be muted
15:42:57 <Joshue108> zakim, unmute me
15:42:57 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
15:43:00 <kerstin> sorry for delay
15:43:21 <Kathy> AWK: take a look at the change
15:43:36 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/2844
15:43:59 <Joshue108> +1
15:44:10 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:44:10 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:44:17 <Kathy> AWK: questions, comments, concerns
15:44:23 <kerstin> +1
15:44:28 <Kathy> +1
15:44:39 <Kathy> RESOLUTION:  accept as amended
15:45:07 <Zakim> -Peter_Korn
15:45:11 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
15:45:13 <korn> korn has left #wai-wcag
15:45:33 <Joshue108> +q
15:46:06 <AWK> ACTION: Michael to handle the transition to handling user agent support notes in a single separate document.
15:46:06 <trackbot> 'Michael' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., cooper, melledge).
15:46:15 <AWK> ACTION: Michaelc to handle the transition to handling user agent support notes in a single separate document.
15:46:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-220 - Handle the transition to handling user agent support notes in a single separate document. [on Michael Cooper - due 2013-10-15].
15:46:44 <MichaelC> drop action 2
15:47:04 <Joshue108> ack me
15:47:39 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:47:39 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:47:43 <Kathy> TOPIC: LC-2853: H45 update for chromevox
15:48:13 <Joshue108> +1
15:48:15 <Kathy> RESOLUTION:  Accepted as amended
15:48:54 <Kathy> TOPIC:  6. aria-describedby comments LC-2848 and LC-2847
15:49:43 <Kathy> AWK: a few comments.  Loretta's we will take under advisement.
15:50:06 <Kathy> James:  We removed a number of items from this technique to confuse items with longdesc
15:50:42 <AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-describedby_to_provide_descriptions_of_objects
15:51:05 <Joshue108> +1 to rename
15:51:16 <Kathy> James:  maybe we should rename the images example and remove the 3.2.2 reference
15:52:29 <Joshue108> yes, agree with James
15:52:52 <Kathy> James:  we don't want to lose the rest of the aria-describedby; we don't want to soften it too much
15:53:14 <Kathy> James:  we need to include user agent note about aria-describedby not reading in all user agents
15:54:53 <Kathy> James: most user agents ask to hear additional information.  NVDA does not - it reads automatically.
15:54:59 <Kathy> AWK: should we say some
15:55:30 <Kathy> James:  have to be careful not to imply how this works with the API
15:56:05 <Kathy> James: suggests some proposed language
15:56:10 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/2848
15:56:12 <Kathy> AWK: updated the language
15:56:13 <AWK> Zakim, Queue?
15:56:13 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:57:14 <Kathy> AWK: does this capture what James was saying
15:57:41 <Kathy> James: yes, we may want to point out the Voiceover does not support longdesc but does support aria-describedby
15:57:49 <Joshue108> correct
15:58:35 <Kathy> AWK:  it goes deeper still but I am not sure we want to do that.  We do in the longdesc technique we have user agent information.  Either technique is ok
15:58:52 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
15:58:52 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:59:00 <Kathy> AWK:  is the information balanced?
15:59:17 <Joshue108> +q
15:59:31 <Joshue108> ack me
15:59:47 <Kathy> Josh: I think it is fine.
16:00:26 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:00:26 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:00:44 <Joshue108> +1
16:00:48 <Kathy> AWK:  any objections?
16:01:06 <Kathy> RESOLUTION:  accepted as amended
16:01:52 <Kathy> TOPIC:  8. HTML Technique: Using heading tags to markup row header cells that group rows
16:02:06 <Kathy> AWK:  Comment show concern about this
16:02:28 <MichaelC> ack sai
16:02:41 <Kathy> AWK:  Saliesh was this from you?
16:02:54 <AWK> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/Census_2013.htm
16:03:15 <Kathy> Saliesh:  yes, this technique was created with table headers with groups
16:04:14 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:04:14 <Zakim> Joshue was already muted, Joshue108
16:04:30 <Kathy> Saliesh:  under each of the groups there is series of form fields.  The group can be defined as a heading.  A user can scan the headings and understand the structure of the table.  The table navigation keys can then move through the table.  The group header can be read by JAWS
16:04:53 <Joshue108> +q
16:05:00 <Kathy> Sailesh:  method avoids headers and id markup
16:05:20 <Kathy> AWK:  there are two tables
16:05:32 <AWK> Zakim, Queue?
16:05:32 <Zakim> I see Joshue on the speaker queue
16:05:32 <Kathy> Sailesh: the one on the bottom shows this technique
16:05:35 <Joshue108> ack me
16:06:46 <Kathy> Josh: I am confused about this.   I wonder degree this will work on complex tables by user agents
16:07:53 <Joshue108> s/I wonder degree this will work on complex tables by user agents/ to what degree this is made accessible by user agent heuristics
16:08:14 <Kathy> Sailesh: the headings provide a way to navigate to the section of the table you want to view.  In this technique assumes one level of headings
16:08:37 <Kathy> Josh:  concerned about adding headings
16:09:01 <Kathy> Sailesh:  it is valid code and you can add headings
16:09:21 <Kathy> Josh: extra layer of complexity, HTML has semantics to mark this up
16:09:53 <Kathy> James:  what about using both;  the header and id could be added with headings
16:10:01 <Joshue108> +q
16:10:25 <Kathy> Sailesh:  the second example simplifies the markup for the developer
16:10:47 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:10:47 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:11:25 <Kathy> Sailesh:  tools if used to create the table markup but developers need to remember to add it
16:11:51 <Kathy> Sailesh: Voiceover support is limited
16:11:54 <AWK> Zakim, Queue?
16:11:54 <Zakim> I see Joshue on the speaker queue
16:12:26 <Joshue108> ack me
16:12:27 <Kathy> Sailesh: is it is another method but not required
16:13:36 <Kathy> Josh:  interesting case.  Could also have these as 4 separate tables.  Not convinced about this and it may be confusing
16:13:38 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:13:38 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:14:41 <Kathy> James:  it would simply for some developers; people who are auditing code would state that it does not meet 1.3.1 for relationship between header cells
16:16:00 <Kathy> AWK:  Also concerned about this.  There is markup for conveying these relationships within tables.   It does not look like there is not full support
16:16:38 <Kathy> Sailesh:  it is valid code.  Josh mentioned about breaking it up into multiple tables but this is not always an option
16:17:08 <Kathy> James:  If you are moving down the column.  How do I know I am skipping the cells?  It is not reading the new headings
16:17:21 <Kathy> Sailesh:  the markup will provide the structure of the table
16:18:00 <Joshue108> +q
16:18:03 <Kathy> James: we would not know what all the headings are for the cell.  You would need read multiple different items - headings and cell headers
16:18:23 <Kathy> Sailesh: Ins+D in JAWS will read the nearest heading
16:18:34 <Kathy> James:  one keystroke vs. two keystrokes
16:18:43 <Joshue108> -q
16:19:37 <Kathy> Sailesh: this is alternative to headers and id; some developers do not code like this.  The recommended way is headers/id but this is an alternative approach where it cannot be used
16:20:02 <Joshue108> KW: I wouldn't want to give devs an out from using header/ids.
16:20:15 <Joshue108> +1 from me too.
16:21:35 <Kathy> AWK:  agree with Kathy.  Users will be navigating using table navigation.  There is value to having headings within cells but have a hard time passing a table if there is not markup to associate the headers
16:22:17 <AWK> Zakim, Queue?
16:22:17 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:22:41 <Kathy> James: what about making this an advisory technique
16:22:49 <Joshue108> ack me
16:23:22 <Kathy> AWK: do you think that the example is sufficient to meet 1.3.1
16:23:47 <Kathy> Josh: with headings a user could get into the middle of heading without knowing that they are in the table
16:24:21 <Kathy> AWK: what is the advisory?
16:24:46 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:24:46 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:24:52 <Kathy> Sailesh: Advisory is when you don't have assistive technology support
16:25:17 <Kathy> AWK: This could also be a usability technique
16:25:34 <Joshue108> s/with headings a user could get into the middle of heading without knowing that they are in the table/navigating by headings could bounce the user into the middle of a table without them knowing it, so I don't like the sound of that.
16:25:57 <Kathy> AWK:  if we say it is not sufficient then another technique would need to used
16:26:37 <Kathy> Sailesh: it is similar to landmarks and headings being used.  Users will figure out the structure
16:26:56 <Kathy> AWK:  what do we want to do here
16:27:37 <kerstin> what about leaving it open having a second look on it and asking SR-users?
16:27:39 <Kathy> AWK:  do we have any heading technique about adding it within a table?
16:28:04 <Joshue108> I'll do that.
16:28:13 <Joshue108> ack me
16:28:18 <Kathy> AWK:  does someone want to look at the techniques for heading to see if we can incorporate this into the technique
16:28:20 <Joshue108> zakim,mute me
16:28:20 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:28:30 <Kathy> Josh: I will do that
16:29:46 <Joshue108> ack me
16:29:59 <AWK> ACTION: Josh to investigate adding table example to existing table techniques.
16:29:59 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:29:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-221 - Investigate adding table example to existing table techniques. [on Joshue O Connor - due 2013-10-15].
16:30:20 <Kathy> RESOLUTION:  not accepted
16:30:31 <Kathy> AWK:  We will pick up next week at #9
16:30:40 <Kathy> AWK:  Sailesh is asking about #10
16:31:18 <Kathy> AWK:  there is a technique and it is ready for review for the working group
16:32:09 <kerstin> bye
16:32:10 <AWK> We start next week with #9
16:32:12 <Kathy> bye
16:32:12 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:32:13 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:32:13 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
16:32:16 <Zakim> -kerstin
16:32:17 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
16:32:17 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:32:19 <Zakim> -AWK
16:32:19 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
16:32:19 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.978.443.aaaa, +1.650.506.aabb, +1.703.225.aacc, Michael_Cooper, AWK, Kathy_Wahlbin, Peter_Korn, Sailesh_Panchang, Joshue, Marc_Johlic, kerstin, James_Nurthen
16:32:54 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:32:54 <Zakim> apparently WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended, AWK
16:32:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see jamesn, RRSAgent, Zakim, AWK, MichaelC, trackbot
16:32:58 <AWK> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html AWK
16:33:22 <AWK> Zakim, bye
16:33:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
16:33:56 <AWK> rrsagent, please part
16:33:56 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/08-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :
16:33:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Josh to provide suggested edits to http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_ARIA_Live_Regions_or_role%3Dalert_to_Identify_Errors [1]
16:33:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-37-00
16:33:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to handle the transition to handling user agent support notes in a single separate document. [2]
16:33:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-46-06
16:33:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michaelc to handle the transition to handling user agent support notes in a single separate document. [3]
16:33:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-46-15
16:33:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Josh to investigate adding table example to existing table techniques. [4]
16:33:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/08-wai-wcag-irc#T16-29-59