14:28:22 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 14:28:22 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-rdf-wg-irc 14:28:24 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:28:24 Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 14:28:26 Zakim, this will be 73394 14:28:26 ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 32 minutes 14:28:27 Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference 14:28:27 Date: 02 October 2013 14:28:32 Chair: Ivan 14:53:40 I can scribe if someone will produce the minutes afterwards 14:54:50 AndyS has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.10.02 14:55:41 SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started 14:55:42 +GavinC 14:55:52 scribenick: AndyS 14:55:59 scribe: Andy 14:56:14 Regrets: Guus Schreiber 14:58:08 +Ivan 14:58:08 -Ivan 14:58:08 +Ivan 14:59:10 +[IPcaller] 14:59:15 zakim, IPCaller is me 14:59:15 +AndyS; got it 14:59:26 gkellogg has joined #rdf-wg 14:59:46 pfps has joined #rdf-wg 14:59:51 + +1.408.992.aaaa 14:59:59 zakim, aaaa is me 14:59:59 +pfps; got it 15:00:27 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:00:27 On the phone I see GavinC, Ivan, AndyS, pfps 15:02:38 + +1.415.686.aabb 15:02:44 zakim, I am aabb 15:02:44 +gkellogg; got it 15:04:24 +Sandro 15:05:05 +??P24 15:05:08 zakim, who is here? 15:05:08 On the phone I see GavinC, Ivan, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, Sandro, ??P24 15:05:10 On IRC I see pfps, gkellogg, Zakim, RRSAgent, TallTed, davidwood, ivan, AndyS, gavinc, yvesr, manu, trackbot, sandro, ericP 15:05:13 Zakim, ??P24 is me 15:05:15 +yvesr; got it 15:05:26 PatH has joined #rdf-wg 15:06:07 +PatH 15:06:15 -> https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-09-25 minutes of last week 15:06:22 minutes are even more beautiful than usual 15:07:17 RESOLVED; Accept the minutes https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-09-25 15:07:21 RESOLVED: Accept the minutes https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-09-25 15:07:25 ACTION-299 15:07:25 ACTION-299 -- Gavin Carothers to Draft response to paul groth -- due 2013-10-02 -- OPEN 15:07:25 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/299 15:07:51 gavinc: pending 15:07:52 scribenick: ericP 15:08:16 scribenick: AndyS 15:08:40 ACTION-293? 15:08:40 ACTION-293 -- Gavin Carothers to Update turtle ed to match published turtle cr document -- due 2013-09-18 -- OPEN 15:08:40 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/293 15:09:19 In progress -- ACTION-293 15:09:25 ACTION-289? 15:09:25 ACTION-289 -- Sandro Hawke to Read http://www.w3.org/mid/20130703143355.ga25039@w3.org and respond to greg willians's comment http://www.w3.org/mid/4d9d27b0-2161-4805-ac3b-ddc9e03cc80e@evilfunhouse.com -- due 2013-09-04 -- OPEN 15:09:25 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/289 15:09:35 sandro: err ... 15:09:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Apr/0062.html 15:09:59 ... not yet done 15:10:16 action-281? 15:10:16 action-281 -- Gavin Carothers to Provide sandro text for http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/ to NOT say it's the test suite -- due 2013-07-31 -- OPEN 15:10:16 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/281 15:10:36 gavinc: pending 15:10:48 zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg 15:10:58 Figure out what to say since http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/ should never have ended up in TR space :( 15:11:20 action-270? 15:11:21 action-270 -- Gavin Carothers to Write resolution text for issue-23 -- due 2013-06-12 -- OPEN 15:11:21 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/270 15:11:34 + +1.619.663.aacc 15:11:38 gavinc: pending 15:11:50 zakim, +1.619.663.aacc is me 15:11:50 +zwu2; got it 15:11:53 AZ has joined #rdf-wg 15:13:03 oops 15:13:29 next meeting, next week 15:13:37 topic: test suite for semantics 15:13:54 pfps: Converted to new format in hg 15:14:04 ... and correct WRT new semantics 15:14:16 ... commented for significant changes 15:14:19 + +081165aadd 15:14:27 can you post a link to the current state of this? 15:14:27 Zakim, aadd is me 15:14:27 +AZ; got it 15:14:37 ... not sure what next - something needs to refer to it 15:15:15 + +1.540.898.aaee 15:15:21 Zakim, aaee is me 15:15:21 +davidwood; got it 15:16:12 ivan: skolemization? 15:16:26 pfps: Optional extra, not needed for test coverage. 15:16:34 ... coverage is now better than RDF-2004. 15:17:03 ... no tests for new datatypes - consider to be outside semantics 15:17:29 ivan: Open action on antoine - tests ? 15:17:56 ACTION-297? 15:17:56 ACTION-297 -- Antoine Zimmermann to Write semantics tests with help of sandro -- due 2013-09-25 -- OPEN 15:17:56 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/297 15:17:58 q+ 15:18:39 ack gkellogg 15:19:08 gregg: negative tests for datasets needed? 15:20:36 path: no entailment relationship in datasets across graphs 15:20:40 no we did not say what a dataset means 15:20:47 "RDF datasets may be used to express RDF content. When used in this way, a dataset should be understood to have at least the same content as its default graph. Note however that replacing the default graph of a dataset by a logically equivalent graph will not in general produce a structurally similar dataset, since it may for example disrupt co-occurrences of blank nodes between the default graph and other graphs in the dataset, which may be important for 15:20:48 reasons other than the semantics of the graphs in the dataset." 15:21:26 markus has joined #rdf-wg 15:21:31 SHOULD is testable. 15:22:12 2013/06/12-rdf-wg RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-136 adopting Option 2; the formal interpretation (truth conditions) of a datasets is the formal interpretation (truth conditions) of its default graph 15:22:35 +??P31 15:22:39 zakim, ?P?P31 is me 15:22:40 sorry, markus, I do not recognize a party named '?P?P31' 15:22:46 zakim, ??P31 is me 15:22:46 +markus; got it 15:23:37 gregg: was thinking about entailment in one graph appearing in another in same dataset. 15:24:18 <> {:a rdfs:subClassOf :b} 15:24:28 { :foo a :a} 15:24:38 {:foo a :a, :b} 15:25:02 gregg: that is not expected as an entailment 15:27:40 gregg: will send email. 15:28:15 ivan: status of test suite - is it finished? Looks like yes pending discussion above. 15:28:30 where is the wiki page? 15:28:41 gregg: wiki page for how to run the tests is needed. 15:28:55 .. submit results to comment list 15:29:15 q+ to say we need a place to describe the manifest vocabulary 15:29:56 gregg: needs a semantics expert to manage the comments 15:30:09 ack az 15:30:09 AZ, you wanted to say we need a place to describe the manifest vocabulary 15:30:13 Thanks to gregg for his work on tests 15:30:39 AZ: need description of manifests - deref of URIs etc 15:30:52 we need someone to say what mechanical steps need to be taken - where does a page need to be created, what needs to link to it? 15:31:35 ivan: need a owner to write the text 15:32:06 path: can write about the semantics part 15:32:36 snadro: see other tests - wiki page and link from official location 15:32:38 Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg 15:32:45 s/snardo/sandro/ 15:32:49 q+ 15:33:11 +Arnaud 15:33:35 q- 15:33:40 http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/ 15:33:54 http://www.w3.org/2013/TrigTests/ 15:33:59 http://www.w3.org/2013/N-TriplesTests/ 15:34:55 Eh? http://json-ld.org/test-suite/ 15:35:38 yes, Gavin? 15:35:46 ivan: process owner needed 15:36:10 sandro: will do the website stuff - need someone for the rest 15:38:39 action pfps: add readme and license to semantics tests 15:38:39 Created ACTION-300 - Add readme and license to semantics tests [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2013-10-09]. 15:38:54 action sandro: create landing page for semantics tests 15:38:54 Created ACTION-301 - Create landing page for semantics tests [on Sandro Hawke - due 2013-10-09]. 15:40:00 topic: LC Comments on Concepts, Semantics 15:40:15 ISSUE-146? 15:40:16 ISSUE-146 -- LC comment: procedural comment on LC of Concepts and Semantics -- open 15:40:16 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/146 15:40:33 sandro: didn't do the full range of announcements 15:41:28 "announcement begins a review period that should last at least three weeks but may last longer if the technical report is complex or has significant external dependencies" 15:41:30 THREE WEEKS 15:41:32 not four 15:41:52 http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#last-call 15:42:26 ivan: action on Guus or David to send msg to chairs list 15:43:53 action: guus to announce all our LC documents to chairs@w3.org and semantic-web@w3.org and other places 15:43:53 Created ACTION-302 - Announce all our lc documents to chairs@w3.org and semantic-web@w3.org and other places [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-10-09]. 15:44:04 action: sandro to tell Jeremy we're doing this. 15:44:05 Created ACTION-303 - Tell jeremy we're doing this. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2013-10-09]. 15:44:09 ivan: sandro please contact JJC 15:44:19 close issue-146 15:44:19 Closed issue-146. 15:44:51 ivan: issue-142 15:44:57 issue-142? 15:44:58 issue-142 -- LC comment: rdfs:Graph ? comment -- open 15:44:58 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/142 15:45:01 issue-142? 15:45:01 issue-142 -- LC comment: rdfs:Graph ? comment -- open 15:45:01 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/142 15:45:05 ... long thread 15:45:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Oct/0001.html 15:45:18 ivan: unclear as to current status 15:45:48 pfps: jeremy made a proposal 15:46:33 ivan: large change 15:46:44 pfps: summary para is accurate 15:46:47 the important part is the summary 15:47:03 the important part is the "summary" 15:47:30 the important part of that is "MAY" 15:49:53 ivan: large amount of editorial changes could mean new LC. 15:50:19 :) 15:50:23 +q 15:50:23 path: peter+I disagree with the change suggestion on a technical level. 15:51:16 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Oct/0007.html 15:51:41 pfps: my response to the RDF-WG list ^^^^^ 15:51:51 ack gavinc 15:52:16 path: I believe there are possible solutions acceptable to JJC (offlist discussion) 15:52:51 q+ to respond to Gavin 15:52:57 q+ 15:53:00 gavinc: don't believe the change makes anything better or worse 15:53:08 ack sandro 15:53:08 sandro, you wanted to respond to Gavin 15:53:22 sandro: this issue-136 15:53:26 issue-136? 15:53:26 issue-136 -- How can one indicate which semantics are intended for a Dataset? -- closed 15:53:26 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/136 15:53:45 sandro: which has been resolved - docs not caught up. 15:54:14 path: worry is that it seems to add something when it does not i.e. it is confusing 15:54:32 q? 15:54:35 ... it is already and intuitive reading 15:54:36 ack PatH 15:54:40 q- 15:55:38 +1 ivan 15:55:38 ivan: we have this discussion for a long time - wary of changing anything at this stage 15:55:57 ... discussion is not best done on the current timescale of the WG. 15:55:58 i also agree with Ivan. 15:56:11 my message suggests that this issu could be handled by a note that defines an entailment regime, i.e., I agree with Ivan 15:56:18 ... a later WG may do more but today we are where we are. 15:56:30 ... 15:56:39 path: agree with ivan-no-hat 15:56:51 +1 from me as well. 15:57:48 +0 15:57:52 PROPOSAL: This WG leaves open issues of semantics for datasets and naming graphs for later work by another WG 15:58:11 -PatH 15:58:27 +1 15:58:43 +0.5 15:58:50 PROPOSAL: This WG leaves semantics for datasets and naming graphs undefined and to be addressed by another WG in the future. 15:58:54 +1 with much sadness 15:58:58 +1 15:59:00 +1 we need a closure for this WG 15:59:00 +1 with much sadness 15:59:02 +1 15:59:03 +PatH 15:59:04 +1 15:59:07 +0 15:59:14 +1 :/ 15:59:19 +1 15:59:20 +1 15:59:23 +1 except that there could be a note about dataset semantics 15:59:23 +1, it's a very unfortunate state of affair though 15:59:46 ivan: Yes, this is about the Rec Track. We may still do Notes. 16:00:04 RESOLVED: This WG leaves semantics for datasets and naming graphs undefined and to be addressed by another WG in the future. 16:00:23 I don't view this as an unfortunate state of affairs - Named graphs are trying to do much too much - A good solution would have multiple parts 16:00:30 0 16:01:08 action pfps: send a proposed response to Jeremy to the WG for comments 16:01:08 Created ACTION-304 - Send a proposed response to jeremy to the wg for comments [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2013-10-09]. 16:01:23 ivan: on the hour 16:01:31 ... d booth comments .... 16:01:39 issue-147? 16:01:39 issue-147 -- LC comment: Definition of "Generalized RDF" -- open 16:01:39 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/147 16:01:43 -Arnaud 16:02:27 pfps: suggestion for issues-147 - I believe it is in the right place and ED is now done. Adds "except that" text 16:02:50 path: better wording in email (scribe AZ email?) 16:03:18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Oct/0024.html 16:03:50 my email was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Oct/0011.html 16:04:02 pfps: suggest edit Concepts in hg and tell editors 16:04:42 ... other edits already done 16:05:14 ivan: issue-147 is in progress and needs confirmation from David Booth. 16:05:29 issue-149? 16:05:29 issue-149 -- LC comment: Intuitive summary needs to be scoped to interpretations -- open 16:05:29 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/149 16:07:02 path: no proposal for changes - will draft a reply 16:07:16 action path: draft reply to issue-149 and send to WG list 16:07:17 Created ACTION-305 - Draft reply to issue-149 and send to wg list [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-10-09]. 16:07:21 action-144? 16:07:21 action-144 -- Ted Thibodeau to Investigate what the relationship is, and document it -- due 2012-02-15 -- CLOSED 16:07:21 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/144 16:07:32 issue-144? 16:07:32 issue-144 -- LC comment: Minor normative error in LC drafts -- open 16:07:32 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/144 16:08:10 pfps: will deal with issue-144 16:08:13 issue-145? 16:08:13 issue-145 -- LC comment: Identify vs. Denote distinction is not helpful -- open 16:08:13 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/145 16:08:16 issue-148? 16:08:16 issue-148 -- LC comment: IRIs do *not* always denote the same resource -- open 16:08:16 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/148 16:09:06 I think 145 is not a major issue 16:09:12 ivan: look at issue-145 16:10:00 path: can handle as editorial if discussion suggests it is needed 16:10:58 scribe: sandro 16:11:12 pat: There's a need for something like "identify" 16:11:22 .. cf "Social Meaning" debate. 16:11:31 .. THere's got to be some way to refer to that. 16:11:42 -yvesr 16:11:42 path: this touches on social meaning 16:11:54 .. David is very attached to the idea of meaning being formal. I think he takes that too far. 16:11:59 .. His view is not standard. 16:12:01 scribenick: sandro 16:12:03 have to go to another meeting. bye 16:12:13 -zwu2 16:12:15 .. It's a philosophical disagreement, and I think I represent the mainstream. 16:12:15 -markus 16:12:55 sandro: Makes sense. 16:13:00 issue-148 16:13:00 issue-148 -- LC comment: IRIs do *not* always denote the same resource -- open 16:13:00 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/148 16:13:26 pat: On that one he's just wrong... 16:14:50 intending to add "intending" sounds like a solution here 16:14:56 sandro: THere's a little point to david's proposed text change. Maybe we can include something in that direction 16:14:58 pat: I'll see if I can some up with some kind of wording here, yes. 16:15:40 https://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/open 16:17:00 sandro: I beleive we're planning to close all of these and and request CR i fpossible next week 16:17:31 peter: yes, let's be ready next week if we can. 16:18:01 peter: two weeks from now is ISWC 16:19:39 peter: ISSUE-23 shouldn't be sitting there like that. 16:19:53 2013/01/16-rdf-wg RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-23; we are indeed defining new formats and new media types for multi-graph. 16:21:19 -AZ 16:22:24 issue-23? 16:22:24 issue-23 -- Does going from single-graph to multi-graph require new format and new media types? -- closed 16:22:24 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/23 16:23:31 -PatH 16:23:42 -gkellogg 16:23:43 -Ivan 16:23:44 -Sandro 16:23:45 -GavinC 16:23:49 -davidwood 16:23:54 trackbot, end meeting 16:23:54 Zakim, list attendees 16:23:54 As of this point the attendees have been GavinC, Ivan, AndyS, +1.408.992.aaaa, pfps, +1.415.686.aabb, gkellogg, Sandro, yvesr, PatH, zwu2, +081165aadd, AZ, +1.540.898.aaee, 16:23:57 ... davidwood, markus, Arnaud 16:24:01 -pfps 16:24:02 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:24:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot 16:24:03 RRSAgent, bye 16:24:03 I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-rdf-wg-actions.rdf : 16:24:03 ACTION: pfps to add readme and license to semantics tests [1] 16:24:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-rdf-wg-irc#T15-38-39 16:24:03 ACTION: sandro to create landing page for semantics tests [2] 16:24:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-rdf-wg-irc#T15-38-54 16:24:03 ACTION: guus to announce all our LC documents to chairs@w3.org and semantic-web@w3.org and other places [3] 16:24:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-rdf-wg-irc#T15-43-53 16:24:03 ACTION: sandro to tell Jeremy we're doing this. [4] 16:24:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-rdf-wg-irc#T15-44-04 16:24:03 ACTION: pfps to send a proposed response to Jeremy to the WG for comments [5] 16:24:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-rdf-wg-irc#T16-01-08 16:24:03 ACTION: path to draft reply to issue-149 and send to WG list [6] 16:24:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-rdf-wg-irc#T16-07-16 16:24:09 -AndyS 16:24:10 SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended 16:24:10 Attendees were GavinC, Ivan, AndyS, +1.408.992.aaaa, pfps, +1.415.686.aabb, gkellogg, Sandro, yvesr, PatH, zwu2, +081165aadd, AZ, +1.540.898.aaee, davidwood, markus, Arnaud