IRC log of i18n on 2013-09-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:41:15 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc
14:41:19 [Zakim]
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14:41:26 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconferece
14:41:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:41:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
14:41:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
14:41:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:41:31 [trackbot]
Date: 26 September 2013
14:41:49 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:41:53 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:41:56 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
14:42:01 [aphillip]
Regrets: Felix
14:42:21 [aphillip]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Sep/0019.html
14:42:36 [aphillip]
agenda+ RADAR
14:42:49 [aphillip]
agenda+ Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note
14:43:00 [aphillip]
agenda+ Authoring HTML: Handling RTL Scripts
14:43:13 [aphillip]
agenda+ QA Translate Flag (any unfinished business??)
14:43:26 [aphillip]
agenda+ 'Tr' defaulting behavior in Vertical Text
14:43:33 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:43:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:45:28 [aphillip]
agenda
14:45:31 [aphillip]
agenda?
14:53:07 [jdaggett]
aphillip: would it be possible to tweak the order a bit to discuss the Tr default behavior issue a little earlier?
14:53:27 [jdaggett]
for purely selfish reasons, it's relatively late here...
14:53:43 [aphillip]
sure john, no problem
14:53:56 [jdaggett]
thanks!
14:54:55 [jdaggett]
right
14:55:16 [jdaggett]
i'm not expecting a resolution of anything
14:55:27 [jdaggett]
just helpful to have more eyes looking at the problem
14:57:45 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
14:57:45 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has not yet started, aphillip
14:57:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, jdaggett, r12a, trackbot
14:58:34 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.666.aaaa
14:58:51 [aphillip]
zakim, +1.408.666.aaaa is me
14:58:51 [Zakim]
+aphillip; got it
14:58:58 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
14:58:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip
14:58:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, jdaggett, r12a, trackbot
14:59:23 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:59:33 [jdaggett]
zakim, ipcaller is me
14:59:33 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
15:00:19 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard please
15:00:19 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:00:20 [Zakim]
+Richard
15:04:50 [r12a]
zakim, who's here?
15:04:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, jdaggett, Richard
15:04:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, jdaggett, r12a, trackbot
15:05:14 [JcK]
JcK has joined #i18n
15:05:28 [Najib-ma]
Najib-ma has joined #i18n
15:05:53 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
15:06:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.245.aabb
15:06:08 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
15:06:18 [aphillip]
agenda?
15:06:42 [aphillip]
Regrets+ DavidClarke
15:07:42 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
15:08:31 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:08:40 [aphillip]
action-251?
15:08:40 [trackbot]
action-251 -- Addison Phillips to Contact the epub folks and see if they will write to html asking about ruby -- due 2013-09-05 -- OPEN
15:08:40 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/251
15:12:30 [aphillip]
close action-258
15:12:30 [trackbot]
Closed action-258.
15:12:42 [aphillip]
action: addison: change the teleconference time per action-258
15:12:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-261 - Change the teleconference time per action-258 [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
15:13:52 [aphillip]
close action-259
15:13:52 [trackbot]
Closed action-259.
15:14:19 [aphillip]
action: addison: cancel tpac room reserveration, notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be around
15:14:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-262 - Cancel tpac room reserveration, notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be around [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
15:14:43 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
15:14:56 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:15:20 [aphillip]
richard: when I'm at TPAC, the web platform docs guys want to talk about nav between translated pages
15:16:03 [aphillip]
richard: ICS 2.0 went to PR
15:16:30 [aphillip]
richard: CSS ruby module was published as WD
15:16:45 [aphillip]
(a hearty round of cheers)
15:17:14 [aphillip]
agenda?
15:17:55 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:17:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "RADAR" taken up [from aphillip]
15:18:12 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar
15:18:24 [r12a]
Topic: Review radar
15:19:00 [aphillip]
agenda?
15:19:02 [r12a]
nothing with deadline or of note this week
15:19:18 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 5
15:19:18 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "'Tr' defaulting behavior in Vertical Text" taken up [from aphillip]
15:19:38 [aphillip]
addison: visitor john daggett
15:19:53 [jdaggett]
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr50/japanese.png
15:19:59 [aphillip]
john: vertical text layout has distinct characters that can have mixed orientations
15:20:02 [r12a]
johnD: vertical layout has mixed orientations for characters
15:20:46 [jdaggett]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#text-orientation
15:20:51 [r12a]
... there is not necessarily a definitive orientation for a given character
15:21:06 [r12a]
... UTR50 defines default orientations
15:21:32 [r12a]
... for use when there is no markup or other indication available
15:21:57 [r12a]
... question is: for a given code point what's the best default?
15:22:15 [r12a]
... in some cases it's clear, latin is rotated, kanji is upright
15:22:34 [jdaggett]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-writing-modes-20110531/#vertical-typesetting-details
15:23:36 [r12a]
... in writing modes the situation was not too clear, so it was proposed to define a Unicode property
15:23:56 [r12a]
... as new codepoints are added the Unicode Consortium will maintain the data
15:24:09 [jdaggett]
http://www.unicode.org/Public/vertical/revision-11/VerticalOrientation-11.html
15:24:18 [r12a]
... this led to UTR50 which defines the vertical orientation property
15:25:41 [r12a]
... if the author has not set a text orientation property explicitly, the user agent will use the UTR50 properties to determine orientation
15:25:58 [r12a]
... there are two T (transform) values
15:26:09 [r12a]
... Tu needs a different glyph
15:26:15 [jdaggett]
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr50/#vertcal_alternates
15:26:16 [aphillip]
Tu 3001 、 IDEOGRAPHIC COMMA Tu 3002 。 IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP
15:26:25 [aphillip]
those are examples
15:27:03 [r12a]
... it's not just orientation
15:27:04 [aphillip]
Tr 3008 〈 LEFT ANGLE BRACKET Tr 3009 〉 RIGHT ANGLE BRACKET Tr 300A 《 LEFT DOUBLE ANGLE BRACKET
15:27:20 [r12a]
Tr needs transformation but that transformation is a rotation
15:28:06 [r12a]
... in OpenType layout is typically done the same way for Tu and Tr - they are laid out upright and a feature causes substitution to create needed glyph
15:28:25 [r12a]
... most fonts will cover the Tu and Tr codepoints
15:28:30 [jdaggett]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0501.html
15:28:47 [r12a]
... however, the spec allows optional fallback for Tr (only) codepoints
15:29:07 [aphillip]
# For Tr characters, which are intended to be either transformed or # rotated sideways, the UA may assume that appropriate glyphs for # upright typesetting are given in the font and render them upright; # alternately it may check for such glyphs first, and fall back to # typesetting them sideways if the appropriate glyphs are missing.
15:29:46 [r12a]
... two problems: [1] it's optional behaviour, but there's actually only one way that's right
15:30:15 [r12a]
... it's not like alternative algorithms for say justification
15:30:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:35:20 [r12a]
... determining the ability of the opentype features to deal with this is not straightforward
15:35:42 [r12a]
... it's not a good idea to do layout operations on a glyph out of context
15:36:24 [r12a]
... there may be stylistic contexts based on adjacent characters
15:38:06 [r12a]
... unicode is defining an informative property, but the mechanics of the fallback mechanism is not what unicode is defining
15:40:58 [aphillip]
Vertical_Orientation (vo) property value, one of the following: U – Upright, the same orientation as in the character code charts R – Rotated 90 degrees clockwise compared to the code charts Tu – Transformed typographically, with fallback to Upright Tr – Transformed typographically, with fallback to Rotated
15:41:46 [aphillip]
Tr Same as Tu except that, as a fallback, the character can be displayed with the code chart glyph rotated 90 degrees clockwise.
15:45:20 [r12a]
... existing fonts already provide alternates and the data is in the font
15:45:34 [r12a]
... if the font doesn't have an alternate, we should view it as a font problem
15:45:57 [r12a]
addison: i have run into this in my day job in vertical text in Kindle, and it was a problem
15:46:10 [r12a]
... some of our fonts don't have a complete set of rotated glyphs
15:46:37 [r12a]
... in order to get the right results without manual styling we had to provide a fallback in the layout for those cases
15:47:22 [r12a]
johnd: it's equally wrong for Tu text if you don't have the right glyph
15:47:49 [r12a]
... if we were talking about a large number of code points this may be a different discussion
15:48:08 [r12a]
... and i'm not sure about the accuracy of some cases in UTR50
15:48:32 [r12a]
... eg the semicolon is displayed upright in Chinese
15:50:44 [r12a]
addison: this is not a normative spec, so it can be adapted to solve problems
15:51:37 [r12a]
johnd: what has been specified in writing=modes is optional behaviour, and the complexity of the machinery requirements doesn't seem necessary given the extent of the problem
15:52:16 [r12a]
addison: we had to do fallback behaviour in kindle for corner cases - when you exceed a font capability you fall back to chinese or other fonts
15:52:35 [r12a]
... we had complaints about glyphs not being properly rotated
15:52:50 [r12a]
johnd: i'd like to know more about the specifics of that example
15:53:27 [r12a]
addison: it may indeed by a quirky character, but a font can't have every glyph in it, so if you leave out something then people will complain
15:54:07 [aphillip]
agenda?
15:54:13 [r12a]
addison: this is a useful introduction, i think we need to have koji's viewpoint
15:55:32 [r12a]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:55:32 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "QA Translate Flag (any unfinished business??)" taken up [from aphillip]
15:56:04 [r12a]
action: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered
15:56:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-263 - Provide further information about issues he encountered [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
15:56:29 [r12a]
action: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues
15:56:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-264 - Provide further information about issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
15:56:39 [r12a]
close action-263
15:56:39 [trackbot]
Closed action-263.
15:57:28 [r12a]
still waiting for comments from Felix
15:57:39 [r12a]
if not received by tomorrow morning, proceed to wide review
15:57:47 [r12a]
felix can submit comments with others
15:58:28 [aphillip]
addison to send announcement tomorrow (Friday)
15:58:32 [aphillip]
agenda?
15:58:41 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:58:41 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note" taken up [from aphillip]
15:58:48 [r12a]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:58:50 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note" taken up [from aphillip]
15:59:13 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-ruby-use-cases-20120710/
15:59:26 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby-use-cases/
15:59:27 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ruby-use-cases-20130910/Overview.html
15:59:46 [aphillip]
richard; can we publish as WG Note
15:59:55 [aphillip]
chair: any objections?
16:00:02 [Zakim]
-jdaggett
16:00:25 [aphillip]
addison: support
16:00:31 [aphillip]
JcK: ok
16:00:47 [aphillip]
richard: sent email out and have had no comments
16:01:08 [r12a]
Agreed: publish Ruby Use Cases Doc as WG Note
16:01:14 [aphillip]
action: richard: publish Ruby Use Cases as WG-Note
16:01:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-265 - Publish ruby use cases as wg-note [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-10-03].
16:01:29 [aphillip]
agenda?
16:02:08 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 3
16:02:08 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Authoring HTML: Handling RTL Scripts" taken up [from aphillip]
16:02:58 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
16:03:02 [Najib-ma]
q+
16:03:06 [r12a]
r12a: some comments from Mati i'll integrate, but we should move it soonish to review
16:03:09 [aphillip]
ack najib-ma
16:03:19 [koji]
koji has joined #i18n
16:03:21 [Najib-ma]
Reading it diagonally.
16:03:23 [Najib-ma]
A general remark.
16:03:25 [Najib-ma]
In the arabic exemple, choosing significative words would be less confusing.
16:03:33 [Najib-ma]
For exemple in the first examples one cannot see which arabic text is actually the attribute value and which one is the element value.
16:03:34 [Najib-ma]
I suggest for example (line breaks here for readability)
16:03:36 [Najib-ma]
<p class="myclass" title="عنوان">
16:03:37 [Najib-ma]
عربية
16:03:39 [Najib-ma]
</p>
16:03:40 [Najib-ma]
where the attribute value is the translation of the word "title" and the <p> content is the word Arabic
16:03:42 [Najib-ma]
More specific comments in a separate mail.
16:03:43 [Najib-ma]
/That's it, Thanks
16:04:02 [aphillip]
addison: thanks Najib! will look for the email
16:04:04 [r12a]
email would be good, najib
16:04:10 [r12a]
please send asap, thanks
16:04:11 [Najib-ma]
Ok
16:04:26 [Najib-ma]
By friday
16:04:26 [r12a]
najib, also see mati's comments
16:04:38 [Najib-ma]
I have to reply to
16:04:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:06:28 [Zakim]
- +1.617.245.aabb
16:06:29 [Zakim]
-aphillip
16:06:32 [r12a]
Meeting Adjourned
16:06:39 [JcK]
JcK has left #i18n
16:06:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:06:44 [Zakim]
-Richard
16:06:44 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
16:06:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were aphillip, jdaggett, Richard, +1.617.245.aabb
16:06:51 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:06:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:07:01 [r12a]
rrsagent, bye
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-actions.rdf :
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: change the teleconference time per action-258 [1]
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-12-42
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: cancel tpac room reserveration, notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be around [2]
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-14-19
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered [3]
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-56-04
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues [4]
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-56-29
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: richard: publish Ruby Use Cases as WG-Note [5]
16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T16-01-14
16:07:20 [r12a]
hi koji, started one hour ago
16:07:21 [aphillip]
Present: Addison, Richard, John K, John Daggett (guest), Najib (via IRC)