IRC log of i18n on 2013-09-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:41:15 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #i18n
- 14:41:15 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc
- 14:41:19 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #i18n
- 14:41:26 [aphillip]
- trackbot, prepare teleconferece
- 14:41:28 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 14:41:30 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 4186
- 14:41:30 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
- 14:41:31 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
- 14:41:31 [trackbot]
- Date: 26 September 2013
- 14:41:49 [aphillip]
- Chair: Addison Phillips
- 14:41:53 [aphillip]
- Scribe: Addison Phillips
- 14:41:56 [aphillip]
- ScribeNick: aphillip
- 14:42:01 [aphillip]
- Regrets: Felix
- 14:42:21 [aphillip]
- Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Sep/0019.html
- 14:42:36 [aphillip]
- agenda+ RADAR
- 14:42:49 [aphillip]
- agenda+ Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note
- 14:43:00 [aphillip]
- agenda+ Authoring HTML: Handling RTL Scripts
- 14:43:13 [aphillip]
- agenda+ QA Translate Flag (any unfinished business??)
- 14:43:26 [aphillip]
- agenda+ 'Tr' defaulting behavior in Vertical Text
- 14:43:33 [aphillip]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 14:43:33 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
- 14:45:28 [aphillip]
- agenda
- 14:45:31 [aphillip]
- agenda?
- 14:53:07 [jdaggett]
- aphillip: would it be possible to tweak the order a bit to discuss the Tr default behavior issue a little earlier?
- 14:53:27 [jdaggett]
- for purely selfish reasons, it's relatively late here...
- 14:53:43 [aphillip]
- sure john, no problem
- 14:53:56 [jdaggett]
- thanks!
- 14:54:55 [jdaggett]
- right
- 14:55:16 [jdaggett]
- i'm not expecting a resolution of anything
- 14:55:27 [jdaggett]
- just helpful to have more eyes looking at the problem
- 14:57:45 [aphillip]
- zakim, who is here?
- 14:57:45 [Zakim]
- I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has not yet started, aphillip
- 14:57:46 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, jdaggett, r12a, trackbot
- 14:58:34 [Zakim]
- I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
- 14:58:41 [Zakim]
- + +1.408.666.aaaa
- 14:58:51 [aphillip]
- zakim, +1.408.666.aaaa is me
- 14:58:51 [Zakim]
- +aphillip; got it
- 14:58:58 [aphillip]
- zakim, who is here?
- 14:58:58 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see aphillip
- 14:58:59 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, jdaggett, r12a, trackbot
- 14:59:23 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:59:33 [jdaggett]
- zakim, ipcaller is me
- 14:59:33 [Zakim]
- +jdaggett; got it
- 15:00:19 [r12a]
- zakim, dial richard please
- 15:00:19 [Zakim]
- ok, r12a; the call is being made
- 15:00:20 [Zakim]
- +Richard
- 15:04:50 [r12a]
- zakim, who's here?
- 15:04:50 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see aphillip, jdaggett, Richard
- 15:04:51 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, jdaggett, r12a, trackbot
- 15:05:14 [JcK]
- JcK has joined #i18n
- 15:05:28 [Najib-ma]
- Najib-ma has joined #i18n
- 15:05:53 [DavidClarke]
- DavidClarke has joined #i18n
- 15:06:00 [Zakim]
- + +1.617.245.aabb
- 15:06:08 [aphillip]
- Topic: Agenda
- 15:06:18 [aphillip]
- agenda?
- 15:06:42 [aphillip]
- Regrets+ DavidClarke
- 15:07:42 [aphillip]
- Topic: Action Items
- 15:08:31 [r12a]
- http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
- 15:08:40 [aphillip]
- action-251?
- 15:08:40 [trackbot]
- action-251 -- Addison Phillips to Contact the epub folks and see if they will write to html asking about ruby -- due 2013-09-05 -- OPEN
- 15:08:40 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/251
- 15:12:30 [aphillip]
- close action-258
- 15:12:30 [trackbot]
- Closed action-258.
- 15:12:42 [aphillip]
- action: addison: change the teleconference time per action-258
- 15:12:42 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-261 - Change the teleconference time per action-258 [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
- 15:13:52 [aphillip]
- close action-259
- 15:13:52 [trackbot]
- Closed action-259.
- 15:14:19 [aphillip]
- action: addison: cancel tpac room reserveration, notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be around
- 15:14:19 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-262 - Cancel tpac room reserveration, notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be around [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
- 15:14:43 [aphillip]
- Topic: Info Share
- 15:14:56 [aphillip]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 15:14:56 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
- 15:15:20 [aphillip]
- richard: when I'm at TPAC, the web platform docs guys want to talk about nav between translated pages
- 15:16:03 [aphillip]
- richard: ICS 2.0 went to PR
- 15:16:30 [aphillip]
- richard: CSS ruby module was published as WD
- 15:16:45 [aphillip]
- (a hearty round of cheers)
- 15:17:14 [aphillip]
- agenda?
- 15:17:55 [aphillip]
- zakim, take up agendum 1
- 15:17:55 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "RADAR" taken up [from aphillip]
- 15:18:12 [aphillip]
- http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar
- 15:18:24 [r12a]
- Topic: Review radar
- 15:19:00 [aphillip]
- agenda?
- 15:19:02 [r12a]
- nothing with deadline or of note this week
- 15:19:18 [aphillip]
- zakim, take up agendum 5
- 15:19:18 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "'Tr' defaulting behavior in Vertical Text" taken up [from aphillip]
- 15:19:38 [aphillip]
- addison: visitor john daggett
- 15:19:53 [jdaggett]
- http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr50/japanese.png
- 15:19:59 [aphillip]
- john: vertical text layout has distinct characters that can have mixed orientations
- 15:20:02 [r12a]
- johnD: vertical layout has mixed orientations for characters
- 15:20:46 [jdaggett]
- http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#text-orientation
- 15:20:51 [r12a]
- ... there is not necessarily a definitive orientation for a given character
- 15:21:06 [r12a]
- ... UTR50 defines default orientations
- 15:21:32 [r12a]
- ... for use when there is no markup or other indication available
- 15:21:57 [r12a]
- ... question is: for a given code point what's the best default?
- 15:22:15 [r12a]
- ... in some cases it's clear, latin is rotated, kanji is upright
- 15:22:34 [jdaggett]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-writing-modes-20110531/#vertical-typesetting-details
- 15:23:36 [r12a]
- ... in writing modes the situation was not too clear, so it was proposed to define a Unicode property
- 15:23:56 [r12a]
- ... as new codepoints are added the Unicode Consortium will maintain the data
- 15:24:09 [jdaggett]
- http://www.unicode.org/Public/vertical/revision-11/VerticalOrientation-11.html
- 15:24:18 [r12a]
- ... this led to UTR50 which defines the vertical orientation property
- 15:25:41 [r12a]
- ... if the author has not set a text orientation property explicitly, the user agent will use the UTR50 properties to determine orientation
- 15:25:58 [r12a]
- ... there are two T (transform) values
- 15:26:09 [r12a]
- ... Tu needs a different glyph
- 15:26:15 [jdaggett]
- http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr50/#vertcal_alternates
- 15:26:16 [aphillip]
- Tu 3001 、 IDEOGRAPHIC COMMA Tu 3002 。 IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP
- 15:26:25 [aphillip]
- those are examples
- 15:27:03 [r12a]
- ... it's not just orientation
- 15:27:04 [aphillip]
- Tr 3008 〈 LEFT ANGLE BRACKET Tr 3009 〉 RIGHT ANGLE BRACKET Tr 300A 《 LEFT DOUBLE ANGLE BRACKET
- 15:27:20 [r12a]
- Tr needs transformation but that transformation is a rotation
- 15:28:06 [r12a]
- ... in OpenType layout is typically done the same way for Tu and Tr - they are laid out upright and a feature causes substitution to create needed glyph
- 15:28:25 [r12a]
- ... most fonts will cover the Tu and Tr codepoints
- 15:28:30 [jdaggett]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0501.html
- 15:28:47 [r12a]
- ... however, the spec allows optional fallback for Tr (only) codepoints
- 15:29:07 [aphillip]
- # For Tr characters, which are intended to be either transformed or # rotated sideways, the UA may assume that appropriate glyphs for # upright typesetting are given in the font and render them upright; # alternately it may check for such glyphs first, and fall back to # typesetting them sideways if the appropriate glyphs are missing.
- 15:29:46 [r12a]
- ... two problems: [1] it's optional behaviour, but there's actually only one way that's right
- 15:30:15 [r12a]
- ... it's not like alternative algorithms for say justification
- 15:30:22 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
- 15:35:20 [r12a]
- ... determining the ability of the opentype features to deal with this is not straightforward
- 15:35:42 [r12a]
- ... it's not a good idea to do layout operations on a glyph out of context
- 15:36:24 [r12a]
- ... there may be stylistic contexts based on adjacent characters
- 15:38:06 [r12a]
- ... unicode is defining an informative property, but the mechanics of the fallback mechanism is not what unicode is defining
- 15:40:58 [aphillip]
- Vertical_Orientation (vo) property value, one of the following: U – Upright, the same orientation as in the character code charts R – Rotated 90 degrees clockwise compared to the code charts Tu – Transformed typographically, with fallback to Upright Tr – Transformed typographically, with fallback to Rotated
- 15:41:46 [aphillip]
- Tr Same as Tu except that, as a fallback, the character can be displayed with the code chart glyph rotated 90 degrees clockwise.
- 15:45:20 [r12a]
- ... existing fonts already provide alternates and the data is in the font
- 15:45:34 [r12a]
- ... if the font doesn't have an alternate, we should view it as a font problem
- 15:45:57 [r12a]
- addison: i have run into this in my day job in vertical text in Kindle, and it was a problem
- 15:46:10 [r12a]
- ... some of our fonts don't have a complete set of rotated glyphs
- 15:46:37 [r12a]
- ... in order to get the right results without manual styling we had to provide a fallback in the layout for those cases
- 15:47:22 [r12a]
- johnd: it's equally wrong for Tu text if you don't have the right glyph
- 15:47:49 [r12a]
- ... if we were talking about a large number of code points this may be a different discussion
- 15:48:08 [r12a]
- ... and i'm not sure about the accuracy of some cases in UTR50
- 15:48:32 [r12a]
- ... eg the semicolon is displayed upright in Chinese
- 15:50:44 [r12a]
- addison: this is not a normative spec, so it can be adapted to solve problems
- 15:51:37 [r12a]
- johnd: what has been specified in writing=modes is optional behaviour, and the complexity of the machinery requirements doesn't seem necessary given the extent of the problem
- 15:52:16 [r12a]
- addison: we had to do fallback behaviour in kindle for corner cases - when you exceed a font capability you fall back to chinese or other fonts
- 15:52:35 [r12a]
- ... we had complaints about glyphs not being properly rotated
- 15:52:50 [r12a]
- johnd: i'd like to know more about the specifics of that example
- 15:53:27 [r12a]
- addison: it may indeed by a quirky character, but a font can't have every glyph in it, so if you leave out something then people will complain
- 15:54:07 [aphillip]
- agenda?
- 15:54:13 [r12a]
- addison: this is a useful introduction, i think we need to have koji's viewpoint
- 15:55:32 [r12a]
- zakim, take up agendum 4
- 15:55:32 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. "QA Translate Flag (any unfinished business??)" taken up [from aphillip]
- 15:56:04 [r12a]
- action: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered
- 15:56:04 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-263 - Provide further information about issues he encountered [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
- 15:56:29 [r12a]
- action: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues
- 15:56:29 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-264 - Provide further information about issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
- 15:56:39 [r12a]
- close action-263
- 15:56:39 [trackbot]
- Closed action-263.
- 15:57:28 [r12a]
- still waiting for comments from Felix
- 15:57:39 [r12a]
- if not received by tomorrow morning, proceed to wide review
- 15:57:47 [r12a]
- felix can submit comments with others
- 15:58:28 [aphillip]
- addison to send announcement tomorrow (Friday)
- 15:58:32 [aphillip]
- agenda?
- 15:58:41 [aphillip]
- zakim, take up agendum 2
- 15:58:41 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note" taken up [from aphillip]
- 15:58:48 [r12a]
- zakim, take up agendum 2
- 15:58:50 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note" taken up [from aphillip]
- 15:59:13 [aphillip]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-ruby-use-cases-20120710/
- 15:59:26 [aphillip]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby-use-cases/
- 15:59:27 [r12a]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ruby-use-cases-20130910/Overview.html
- 15:59:46 [aphillip]
- richard; can we publish as WG Note
- 15:59:55 [aphillip]
- chair: any objections?
- 16:00:02 [Zakim]
- -jdaggett
- 16:00:25 [aphillip]
- addison: support
- 16:00:31 [aphillip]
- JcK: ok
- 16:00:47 [aphillip]
- richard: sent email out and have had no comments
- 16:01:08 [r12a]
- Agreed: publish Ruby Use Cases Doc as WG Note
- 16:01:14 [aphillip]
- action: richard: publish Ruby Use Cases as WG-Note
- 16:01:15 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-265 - Publish ruby use cases as wg-note [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-10-03].
- 16:01:29 [aphillip]
- agenda?
- 16:02:08 [aphillip]
- zakim, take up agendum 3
- 16:02:08 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "Authoring HTML: Handling RTL Scripts" taken up [from aphillip]
- 16:02:58 [aphillip]
- Topic: AOB?
- 16:03:02 [Najib-ma]
- q+
- 16:03:06 [r12a]
- r12a: some comments from Mati i'll integrate, but we should move it soonish to review
- 16:03:09 [aphillip]
- ack najib-ma
- 16:03:19 [koji]
- koji has joined #i18n
- 16:03:21 [Najib-ma]
- Reading it diagonally.
- 16:03:23 [Najib-ma]
- A general remark.
- 16:03:25 [Najib-ma]
- In the arabic exemple, choosing significative words would be less confusing.
- 16:03:33 [Najib-ma]
- For exemple in the first examples one cannot see which arabic text is actually the attribute value and which one is the element value.
- 16:03:34 [Najib-ma]
- I suggest for example (line breaks here for readability)
- 16:03:36 [Najib-ma]
- <p class="myclass" title="عنوان">
- 16:03:37 [Najib-ma]
- عربية
- 16:03:39 [Najib-ma]
- </p>
- 16:03:40 [Najib-ma]
- where the attribute value is the translation of the word "title" and the <p> content is the word Arabic
- 16:03:42 [Najib-ma]
- More specific comments in a separate mail.
- 16:03:43 [Najib-ma]
- /That's it, Thanks
- 16:04:02 [aphillip]
- addison: thanks Najib! will look for the email
- 16:04:04 [r12a]
- email would be good, najib
- 16:04:10 [r12a]
- please send asap, thanks
- 16:04:11 [Najib-ma]
- Ok
- 16:04:26 [Najib-ma]
- By friday
- 16:04:26 [r12a]
- najib, also see mati's comments
- 16:04:38 [Najib-ma]
- I have to reply to
- 16:04:40 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
- 16:06:28 [Zakim]
- - +1.617.245.aabb
- 16:06:29 [Zakim]
- -aphillip
- 16:06:32 [r12a]
- Meeting Adjourned
- 16:06:39 [JcK]
- JcK has left #i18n
- 16:06:43 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
- 16:06:44 [Zakim]
- -Richard
- 16:06:44 [Zakim]
- I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
- 16:06:44 [Zakim]
- Attendees were aphillip, jdaggett, Richard, +1.617.245.aabb
- 16:06:51 [r12a]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 16:06:51 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html r12a
- 16:07:01 [r12a]
- rrsagent, bye
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-actions.rdf :
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: addison: change the teleconference time per action-258 [1]
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-12-42
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: addison: cancel tpac room reserveration, notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be around [2]
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-14-19
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered [3]
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-56-04
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues [4]
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-56-29
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: richard: publish Ruby Use Cases as WG-Note [5]
- 16:07:01 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T16-01-14
- 16:07:20 [r12a]
- hi koji, started one hour ago
- 16:07:21 [aphillip]
- Present: Addison, Richard, John K, John Daggett (guest), Najib (via IRC)