IRC log of rdfval on 2013-09-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/10-rdfval-irc

12:58:40 [ericP]

meeting: RDF Validation Workshop

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+[IPcaller]

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13:23:53 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

13:24:11 [aisaac]

Zakim, IPcaller is me

13:24:11 [Zakim]

+aisaac; got it

13:24:51 [dbooth]

Meeting: RDF Validation Workshop

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13:30:57 [Ashok_Malhotra]

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13:31:25 [mesteban]

Miguel Esteban Gutiérrez - Center for Open Middleware (Universidad Politecnica de Madrid)

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13:32:36 [labra]

Jose Labra presentation: My name is Jose Emilio Labra Gayo (University of Oviedo, Spain). I am interested in this workshop because we have a practical use case on the WebIndex and we have used a SPARQL queries based tool to validate RDF called Computex. We are also interested on RDF profiles

13:32:55 [arthur]

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13:33:18 [GR]

Graham Rong, PhD, from MIT has been working on semantic web application in financial industry

13:33:20 [sandro]

Sandro Hawke, W3C. Staff contact for RDF-WG, GLD-WG, and was for SPARQL, RIF, OWL, Prov

13:34:34 [GR]

http://bit.ly/azitMU Consuming XBRL Financial Information: Semantic Web Prototype App Aims To Make It Easier, Faster, Automatic — And Socially Connected

13:34:42 [GR]

http://bit.ly/RxzPyr Linking XBRL to RDF: The Road To Extracting Financial Data For Business Value

13:35:03 [roger]

Roger Menday, Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe. Working on using Linked Data technologies in the Enterprise

13:35:10 [guoqian]

Hello, my name is Guoqian Jiang from Mayo Clinic, Rochester MN. I am a clinical informatics researcher. My research interests focus on clinical data standards and using semantic web tools for data validation and quality assurance in health domain.

13:35:32 [sandro]

RRSAgent, pointer?

13:35:32 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2013/09/10-rdfval-irc#T13-35-32

13:36:41 [hsolbri]

Harold Solbrig - Mayo Clinic. Focus on Ontologies in clinical research and standardized ontology representation. Editor and author of OMG LQS specification, HL7/ISO Common Terminology Services (CTS) and OMG CTS2. Participant in ISO 11179 and XMDR projects, IHTSDO SNOMED CT, WHO ICD-11 project.

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13:37:23 [DavidBooth]

David Booth, KnowMED. Applying RDF and other semantic web technology to medical records and other healthcare information to facilitate better research and help measure quality of care.

13:37:58 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Oracle. Member of LDP WG. Worked on XML Schema for many, many years!

13:38:07 [mSkjaeveland]

My name is Martin G. Skjæveland, PhD student from University of Oslo, Norway. Will present work on validating incoming RDF data based on what in the receiving dataset.

13:38:16 [arthur]

Arthur Ryman, IBM Rational, developed OSLC Resource Shape spec to fill the void where XML Schema lived, for documenting and specifying REST APIs for Linked Data

13:39:09 [rmb]

Robert Beideman - GS1 - Leveraging RDF and LOD to facilitate availability of trusted, authentic data about Products, Companies, and Services on the Web

13:40:22 [mgh]

Hello - I'm Mark Harrison from the Auto-ID Lab at the University of Cambridge. We have a close collaboration with GS1 in the development of technical standards for supply chain visibility, traceability and electronic pedigree and we've recently been involved in the GS1 Digital project, which is looking at ways to use Linked Open Data for products

13:40:24 [Anamitra]

Anamitra - IBM/Maximo - RDF data introspection

13:40:42 [evrensirin]

Evren Sirin - Clark & Parsia, We develop Stardog RDF database that provide RDF validation capabilities

13:42:06 [timCole]

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13:42:33 [Arnaud]

Arnaud Le Hors ("Arno Luh Oarss"), IBM Linked Data Standards Lead, chair of the LDP WG and of this workshop (former W3C Team member :-)

13:43:14 [timCole]

Tim Cole, Univ of Illinois and W3C Open Annotation Community Group

13:44:02 [Arnaud]

zakim, who's on the phone?

13:44:02 [Zakim]

On the phone I see +1.617.715.aaaa, dbs, DaveReynolds (muted), aisaac

13:44:42 [ericP]

Zakim, who is here?

13:44:42 [Zakim]

On the phone I see +1.617.715.aaaa, dbs, DaveReynolds (muted), aisaac

13:44:43 [Zakim]

On IRC I see timCole, nmihindu, arthur, sandro, guoqian, Ashok_Malhotra, roger, SteveS_, aisaac, labra, DaveReynolds, kcoyle, mSkjaeveland, rmb, GR, mgh, Anamitra, evrensirin,

13:44:43 [Zakim]

... DavidBooth, RRSAgent, hsolbri, Zakim, Arnaud, dbs, ericP

13:45:44 [SteveS_]

Steve Speicher - IBM SWG Rational - LDP Editor - OSLC community/standards, I work with arthur

13:46:08 [DaveReynolds]

Dave Reynolds, Epimorphics Ltd. Part of GLD working group co-editing Data Cube and Org specs. Among other things work with UK public sector on use of Linked Data which has raised a number of validation-like requirements.

13:47:21 [aisaac]

aisaac is Antoine Isaac, from Europeana - previously working on SKOS. Interested in getting good quality data from numerous, heterogeneous datasets

13:49:12 [Arnaud]

Eric is presenting http://www.w3.org/2012/12/rdf-val/SOTA

13:50:26 [sandro]

Ashok_Malhotra: When we started RDF, folks said it was great BECAUSE it had no schema. Are we changing our mind?

13:50:33 [sandro]

Arnaud: Sounds like JSON :-)

13:51:09 [sandro]

hsolbri: <not scribed :-( >

13:51:30 [sandro]

DaveReynolds: There are lots of different schemas in RDF.

13:51:48 [sandro]

s/DaveReynolds/DavidBooth/

13:51:57 [arthur]

PDF version of my charts at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/File:OSLC_Resource_Shapes.pdf

13:52:10 [sandro]

(who is scribing? Arnaud?)

13:52:37 [Arnaud]

sandro, did you just volunteer? ;-)

13:52:46 [sandro]

scribe: sandro

13:52:50 [Arnaud]

thank you

13:53:08 [sandro]

hsolbri, can you type in what you said to Ashok? I didn't catch it.

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13:54:22 [sandro]

topic: Presentation from Mark Harrison (U Cambrdige)

13:55:01 [sandro]

Robert: GS1 - we did bar codes. We work with the Auto-Id Labs (at MIT)

13:55:12 [sandro]

s/at MIT/started here at MIT/

13:55:37 [sandro]

.. GS1 digital, trying to leveral all the master data in the supply chain, business-to-consumer

13:56:16 [sandro]

Mark: (slide with iPones, LOD for products, Pre-Sale)

13:56:38 [sandro]

RRSAgent, pointer?

13:56:38 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2013/09/10-rdfval-irc#T13-56-38

13:57:11 [sandro]

RRSAgent, make logs public

13:57:57 [sandro]

.. more informed choices, eg products with particular environmental impact

14:00:16 [ericP]

-> http://www.w3.org/2012/12/rdf-val/submissions/GS1%20Digital%20-%20W3C%20RDF%20Validation%20Workshop.pdf Mark Harrison's slides

14:00:41 [ericP]

[slide 8]

14:00:51 [ericP]

[slide 9]

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14:05:02 [ericP]

Mark: do we want broken hyperlink checking?

14:05:28 [ericP]

... (can we validate offline)

14:06:04 [Arnaud]

... what is the scope/boundary of what we validate?

14:06:22 [sandro]

mark: When we have these huge code lists, the scale of validation queries might be problematic

14:07:09 [ericP]

Mark: 3000 attributes, hundreds of which are code-list-driven

14:08:09 [hsolbri]

Focus on markup and validation tools rather than the actual validation

14:08:11 [Zakim]

+ +1.510.435.aabb

14:08:35 [aisaac]

zakim, please mute aabb

14:08:35 [Zakim]

+1.510.435.aabb should now be muted

14:08:48 [ericP]

Zakim, aaaa is Workshop_room

14:08:48 [Zakim]

+Workshop_room; got it

14:08:55 [aisaac]

zakim, please unmute aabb

14:08:55 [Zakim]

+1.510.435.aabb should no longer be muted

14:11:28 [DaveReynolds]

+1, publishing and inspecting the contract is at least as important as enforcing the contract

14:11:33 [sandro]

hsolbri: Happy to see these use cases. I think RDF "validation" is not the best framing. I think it's MORE important to publish the characters of what's in a store, rather than just validating.

14:12:08 [sandro]

arthur: This sounds a lot like what we've done at IBM. Can you describe....

14:13:02 [sandro]

mark: It's about making sure you can ... We need to make sure the two datasets are in sync with each other. You need to have confidence that these are the true values asserted by manufacturer. Maybe we could use Dig. Sigs. There's liability to consider.

14:13:26 [sandro]

arthur: you're comparing published data with Reference data. you don't need to comopute a sig

14:13:35 [sandro]

mark: true, we could use prov as an alterantive to sigs

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14:14:13 [arthur]

GS1 uses cases very similar to OSLC, except for digital signatures

14:14:29 [sandro]

timcole: The issue cardinality, not validations. Value is correct... unit transformations. 600g = 1.2lbs or whatever. Are you encompassing that in validation?

14:14:34 [sandro]

mark: Yes.

14:14:58 [sandro]

mark: like in eric's example of Reproducted Date -- you want to do checking like that, with units conversion

14:15:28 [sandro]

.. EU legislation says vitamins are expressed in certain units. Sanity checking on values -- to make sure we're not off my orders of magnitude

14:15:39 [sandro]

timCole: Does broaden the scope.

14:15:41 [sandro]

mark: Yes.

14:16:08 [sandro]

Robert: We used to have a closed network for this. To open it to millions of producers makes this more complex.

14:16:34 [sandro]

Ashok_Malhotra: If you want to test whether this date follows this other date, there are xquery functions to handle all of that stuff. So we can just pick them up. We don;t have to invent them again

14:16:41 [sandro]

mark: We should leverage what we can, yes.

14:16:54 [sandro]

mark: And using qudt for conversion of units, and so on.

14:17:11 [sandro]

topic: Harld Solbrig, Mayo Clinic

14:17:20 [sandro]

(slides)

14:18:08 [sandro]

hsolbri: we had "strings" where were kind of like rdf graphs. a ptext code was a sort of ontology

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14:18:26 [sandro]

ptxt

14:20:23 [ericP]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/9/94/GS1_Digital_-_W3C_RDF_Validation_Workshop.pdf Harold Solbrig's slides

14:21:04 [mgh]

Slides by Mark Harrison and Robert Beideman

14:22:12 [ericP]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/7/77/RDF_Validation.pptx Harold Solbrig's slides

14:22:28 [Arnaud]

Arnaud has changed the topic to: W3C RDF Validation Workshop - http://www.w3.org/2012/12/rdf-val/agenda (upload slides to: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Special:Upload - preferably PDF or HTML)

14:22:32 [guoqian]

hsolbrig: from ptxt to ASN.1

14:23:27 [mgh]

Slides by Mark Harrison and Robert Beideman are at "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/9/94/GS1_Digital_-_W3C_RDF_Validation_Workshop.pdf"

14:23:30 [sandro]

hsolbri: RDF only guarantees triples, literals

14:25:53 [sandro]

hsolbri: With SPARQL, you have to code EVERYTHING as optional!

14:25:59 [mgh]

In SPARQL need to use OPTIONAL extensively for defensive coding in case value is not present

14:26:03 [sandro]

hsolbri: ... which is NP

14:26:59 [sandro]

hsolbri: SIde note: Dataset (identity is content), Triple store (Identity separate from content)

14:27:38 [guoqian]

hsolbri: a definition about what is RDF store

14:28:20 [sandro]

hsolbri: We should focus on the invariants in an RDF store. The synax MUST provide a way to state the invariants. What will always be true of this store, so when you're writing queries, you know what's optional, what can be in there, what can't be in there.

14:28:32 [sandro]

hsolbri: We need a way for them to be published, and for them to be discovered.

14:28:48 [sandro]

hsolbri: Future -- invariants will change over time.

14:28:48 [guoqian]

hsolbri:RDF validation must provide a standard syntax and semantics for describing RDF invariants

14:29:14 [sandro]

hsolbri: Semantic Versioning. semver.org

14:29:26 [sandro]

hsolbri: That was the MUST. Here's the SHOULD.

14:29:41 [sandro]

.. representable in RDF, maybe also a DSL

14:29:53 [sandro]

.. formally verifiable, consistent, maybe complete

14:29:59 [sandro]

.. self-defining

14:30:18 [sandro]

.. able to express subset of UM 2. class and attribute assertions (and some OCL?)

14:30:31 [sandro]

.. able to express XML Schema invariants

14:30:52 [sandro]

.. implementable in exising tooling and infrastructure (RDF, SPARQL, REST, ...)

14:31:05 [sandro]

(this is slide 17)

14:33:49 [sandro]

hsolbri: Example of allowed transitions -- you're allowed to add subjects, but not to add predicates.

14:34:12 [sandro]

.. spectrum from read-only to write-any-triple.

14:37:57 [guoqian]

hsolbri: LOD today OK for research but not for production systerms

14:38:33 [guoqian]

... OK for relatively static stores but not for federation and evolution

14:38:58 [aisaac]

Question for Harold: Just checking, when you say "All constraints of XML Schema", this includes sequences?

14:39:36 [sandro]

guoqian: You're offering another definition of "store". Is this different from existing defn of named graphs?

14:40:24 [sandro]

hsolbri: I'd have to go back and look at that. I think Named Graphs are local to quad store. ANd I'm focussing on having the identity of a store, but have the contents be constrainted.

14:40:25 [sandro]

q+

14:40:37 [Arnaud]

ack sandro

14:41:04 [ericP]

sandro: as i understand SPARQL11 terminology, a "graph store" can have multiple "states"

14:41:19 [ericP]

... so you're talking about a particular graph store to only contain certain datasets

14:41:32 [aisaac]

q+

14:42:21 [sandro]

Arnaud: people use the term "graph" sometimes to mean something mutable or not, gboxes and gsnaps.

14:42:39 [Arnaud]

ack aisaac

14:42:41 [sandro]

hsolbri: "magic box" was a term we onces used.

14:43:12 [sandro]

aisaac: I heard Harold say he wants to represent all that's allowed by XML Schema. Does that include Sequence Information?

14:43:24 [arthur]

q+

14:44:06 [sandro]

hsolbri: Great question. There are situations where people take advantage of order, but this may be a drawback. so, maybe MOST of XML schema. The challenge is how to get it back out in the right order....

14:44:55 [sandro]

Arnaud: We have on the agenda a presentation from Noah Mendelson, to talk about XML Schema, warning us against reproducing some of their mistakes.

14:45:07 [Arnaud]

ack arthur

14:45:10 [sandro]

Arnaud: Some people will say 20/80 rule, but which 80?

14:45:29 [sandro]

Arnaud: Your summary slide was a bit disappointing/negative.

14:45:40 [Arnaud]

s/Arnaud/Arthur/

14:46:08 [sandro]

hsolbri: I believe fixing this is necessary to to make RDF able to be a primary source for content.

14:46:15 [evrensirin]

q+

14:46:57 [JimMcCusker]

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14:47:03 [sandro]

arthur: I consider your second negative to be a positive. It's why we've adopted RDF. Traditional data warehouses are very expensive because they completely enforce the schema. RDF allows more graceful evolution.

14:48:17 [sandro]

hsolbri: So, the flexibility of RDF is seen as a real advantage. A fellow at OMG used to distinguish between precise and detailed. We publish the invariants that are known, but it's important to be able to leave flexibility. If we make no assertion about firsttname and lastname, then that's important to know, too.

14:48:21 [Arnaud]

ack evrensirin

14:48:51 [sandro]

evrensirin: Graceful evolution of data is an advantage of RDF. That's not about enforcement of schema, but about having the option to not have a schema.

14:49:11 [sandro]

evrensirin: Clarification on post-conditions. State transitions, or states?

14:50:06 [sandro]

hsolbri: Closely related to reasoning. If you're doing anything beyong a basic PUT, adding a triple to a store may involve doing additional inferences, eg adding a firstname may result in the presence of a fullname in a store.

14:50:25 [sandro]

.. what has to be true for this set of rules to fire; what is true if they do.

14:50:33 [sandro]

(not sure I scribed that right!)

14:51:01 [sandro]

topic: Miguel Gutierrez presentation

14:51:36 [sandro]

topic: Miguel Esteban-Gutiérrez presentation

14:51:53 [nmihindu]

slides --> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/3/3f/RVW2013-RDFValidationInALinkedData_World.pptx

15:15:49 [roger]

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15:17:24 [Zakim]

- +1.510.435.aabb

15:17:38 [DaveReynolds]

My slides are at: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/4/43/Dave-reynolds-validation-slides.pdf

15:29:53 [Zakim]

-dbs

15:32:08 [ssimister]

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15:35:08 [Zakim]

+??P68

15:36:44 [Arnaud]

Paul Davidson's video: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-KHr8T2fP_KNXd0cm4wTG9hSjA/edit

15:37:24 [dbs]

Zakim, ??P68 is dbs

15:37:24 [Zakim]

+dbs; got it

15:37:37 [SteveS]

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15:39:26 [DaveReynolds]

aisaac - I'd be happy to swap slots, though that'll only save you 5 mins

15:40:09 [sandro]

scribe: arthur

15:40:16 [mgh]

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15:40:37 [arthur]

video of Linked Data Profiles by Paul Davidson up next

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15:41:05 [aisaac]

@DaveRaynolds: thx a lot - let's see what happens with the others, and decide during Dave Booth's presentation?

15:42:46 [Arnaud]

aisaac, we can have you sooner

15:43:26 [Arnaud]

aisaac, how about you go just after Roger?

15:43:46 [Arnaud]

ok

15:44:52 [arthur]

Pauls wants a "Linked Data Profile" that describes the properties, values, etc., that should be used so that multiple coucils in England can share data

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15:45:32 [arthur]

Roger up next

15:45:59 [Arnaud]

Roger's slides: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/File:20130909_rdfvalidation.pdf

15:46:03 [arthur]

described used of REST APIs at Fujitsu

15:46:12 [sandro]

+1 Paul Davidson, make it easier to share municipal data

15:46:20 [arthur]

participating in LDP activity

15:47:21 [Zakim]

+ +1.510.435.aacc

15:47:25 [arthur]

need to descibe parameters to create resources (Progenitor)

15:49:07 [arthur]

use case: enable robots to fill in forms

15:50:04 [arthur]

proposed a vocab (f:parameterSet ...) to be included in an LDP container

15:50:11 [aisaac]

my slides on slideshare: http://www.slideshare.net/antoineisaac/europeana-rdf-validation

15:50:20 [aisaac]

PDF: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/6/6f/Europeana_RDFValidation.pdf

15:51:04 [arthur]

Next: Antoine Isaac - Europeana and RDF data Validation

15:51:44 [arthur]

aggregates data from multiple sources (musems) and need to enforce constraints

15:52:55 [arthur]

described as table: property, occurence, range

15:53:28 [arthur]

using OWL now

15:54:33 [arthur]

EDM is implemented as XML Schema (for RDF) with Schematron rules

15:54:48 [dbs]

EDM = Europeana Data Model

15:55:47 [arthur]

Also using Dublin Core Description Set

15:57:33 [arthur]

OWL = hard, SPARQL = low-level

15:57:37 [DavidBooth]

David Booth's slides: http://dbooth.org/2013/validation/dbooth-slides.pdf

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15:59:04 [arthur]

Next - David Booth -

16:00:11 [arthur]

topic: Thoughs on Healthcare

16:00:40 [guoqian]

-- Schema promiscuous - why RDF?

16:01:38 [aisaac]

Bye folks. It was a great morning. Enjoy the rest of your day, and thx a lot for the slide moving!

16:01:40 [arthur]

multiple schema, multiple data sources

16:01:50 [Zakim]

-aisaac

16:02:21 [arthur]

==> need multiple perspectives on validation of the same data

16:03:47 [arthur]

wish list: build on SPARQL,

16:04:16 [arthur]

use SPARQL UPDATE to build intermediate results (instead of one giant SPARQL query)

16:04:30 [arthur]

check URI patterns

16:05:07 [arthur]

must be incremental so you can do it continuously, e.g. like rgression testing

16:06:03 [arthur]

declarative is too awkward for complex rules ==> need operational (imperative) - SPARQL UPDATE pipelines

16:06:25 [DaveReynolds]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/4/43/Dave-reynolds-validation-slides.pdf

16:06:57 [arthur]

Next - Dave Reynolds - Validate requirements and approaches

16:07:44 [arthur]

currently working with UK gov - multiple vocabs, manual docs, each publsiher validates their data

16:08:21 [arthur]

need a shared validation approach - need to specify "shape" of data

16:08:46 [arthur]

declarative rules are desirable

16:09:13 [arthur]

understandable by "mortals"

16:09:17 [hsolbri]

Interesting - does Reynold's declarative requirement clash with Booth's procedural?

16:10:11 [arthur]

cites W3C Datacube vocab

16:10:28 [DavidBooth]

Harold, I think it depends on the complexity of the validation check. If it can be expressed in a simple declarative rule, then that is easiest. My point is that for more complex checks, operational is needed.

16:10:52 [arthur]

SPARQL used to express Datacube integrity constraints

16:11:21 [arthur]

SPARQL queries hard to understand

16:12:03 [arthur]

for irregular data, OWL is also too hard

16:12:38 [guoqian]

need ability to validate against external services such as registries

16:13:03 [arthur]

need to specify controlled terms too

16:13:32 [arthur]

END OF LIGHTNING TALKS

16:13:41 [arthur]

Start discussion

16:13:55 [DavidBooth]

Topic: Discussion

16:14:53 [arthur]

Arnaud framing discussion - what do we need? What can we afford?

16:16:14 [arthur]

Harold - compare need for procedural steps versus declarative constraints

16:18:10 [arthur]

Harold - must declarative description also be executable (for validation) e.g. by translation to SPARQL

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16:18:56 [arthur]

Harold - e.g. in many cases, the datastore content is already valid, so the missing capability is to advertise what's in a store

16:19:30 [DaveReynolds]

zakim, +q

16:19:30 [Zakim]

I see DaveReynolds on the speaker queue

16:19:31 [ericP]

q+ to discus XML Schema/RNG + schematron

16:19:43 [evrensirin]

q+

16:19:58 [arthur]

David - desirable to have high-level specification that is translatable to an executable language (SPARQL)

16:20:42 [Arnaud]

ack dave

16:20:54 [arthur]

Arnaud - use the IRC queue system "q+" to get on queue

16:21:32 [DavidBooth]

David: Want the best of both worlds: declarative when a constraint can be easily expressed that way, while allowing fall back to SPARQL when necessary. So to my mind the ideal would be declarative *within* the SPARQL framework.

16:21:47 [Arnaud]

ack eric

16:21:47 [Zakim]

ericP, you wanted to discus XML Schema/RNG + schematron

16:21:52 [arthur]

Dave - SPARQL is too low level - need high-level description

16:22:24 [arthur]

Eric - uses multiple schema langauges XSD, RelaxNG, Schematron

16:22:56 [Arnaud]

ack evren

16:23:10 [arthur]

Eric - we'll probably have a high-level validation language that is extensible with low-level rules in SPARQL, JS, etc

16:23:11 [hsolbri]

UML has Class, property and OCL (schematron equivalent)

16:24:09 [arthur]

Evren - SPARQL has extension points. Concern about SPARQL UPDATE since it changes data

16:24:19 [timCole]

q+

16:24:26 [arthur]

David - didn't imply to actually change data

16:24:30 [Arnaud]

ack timcole

16:24:38 [hsolbri]

q+ Preconditions validate state of incoming data, postconditions "side effects"

16:24:55 [hsolbri]

q+

16:25:11 [Arnaud]

ack hsolbri

16:25:25 [Ashok_Malhotra]

q+

16:25:30 [arthur]

Tim - OWL wasn't developed for validation, SPARQL wasn't developed for validation - why not have a language without baggage

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16:26:18 [arthur]

Harold - we should be informed by UML

16:26:47 [Arnaud]

ack ashok

16:26:52 [DavidBooth]

s/ - /: /g

16:27:56 [arthur]

Ashok: should split up problem, 1) state, 2) structure, 3) constraints

16:28:24 [DavidBooth]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:28:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/10-rdfval-minutes.html DavidBooth

16:28:34 [DavidBooth]

rrsagent, make logs public

16:29:17 [arthur]

Arnaud: perspectives are 1) validation, 2) description

16:29:46 [arthur]

Eric: description should be translatable to SPARQL, SPIN, whatever

16:29:50 [hsolbri]

q+ to say if it isn't compatible, I think we need a good justification as to why.

16:30:11 [Arnaud]

ack hsolbri

16:30:11 [Zakim]

hsolbri, you wanted to say if it isn't compatible, I think we need a good justification as to why.

16:30:20 [arthur]

Eric: cites Stephan Decker proposal to translate description into SPARQL

16:30:42 [evrensirin]

q+ to talk about what we can afford with sparql translation

16:30:50 [ericP]

q+ to say that coverage of all triples may be tricky in SPARQL

16:30:56 [labra]

q+ to talk about RDF profiles

16:31:04 [arthur]

Harold: cites project to translate UML -> Z - SPARQL

16:31:09 [Arnaud]

ack evren

16:31:09 [Zakim]

evrensirin, you wanted to talk about what we can afford with sparql translation

16:31:31 [guoqian]

hsholbri: working on translating from UML to Z to Sparql

16:31:52 [arthur]

Evren: translation is good implementation strategy, but not for state transitions

16:31:56 [arthur]

q+

16:32:02 [hsolbri]

q+ to say proposed requirement - invariants (and rules?) expressible in RDF

16:32:16 [arthur]

q+ Can use SPARQL by refering to multiple graphs

16:32:33 [Arnaud]

ack eric

16:32:33 [Zakim]

ericP, you wanted to say that coverage of all triples may be tricky in SPARQL

16:32:49 [DavidBooth]

Chair: Arnaud Le Hors and Harold Solbrig

16:33:04 [arthur]

David: use multiple graphs or datasets to describe pre/post conditions

16:33:47 [Arnaud]

ack labra

16:33:47 [Zakim]

labra, you wanted to talk about RDF profiles

16:33:47 [arthur]

q-

16:34:48 [arthur]

Labra: descibes work on RDF validation based on profiles

16:35:26 [arthur]

Labra: like Schematron, using SPARQL instead of XPath

16:35:38 [Arnaud]

ack hsolbri

16:35:38 [Zakim]

hsolbri, you wanted to say proposed requirement - invariants (and rules?) expressible in RDF

16:36:32 [arthur]

Harold: SPARQL not using RDF (unlike SPIN) - we should require an RDF representation

16:36:36 [evrensirin]

q+ about rdf syntax for constraints

16:36:49 [Arnaud]

ack evren

16:36:53 [guoqian]

hsolbri:SPARQL should be able to be defined in RDF with meta data

16:37:00 [ericP]

q+ to ask if the expressivity of SPIN in RDF is of opperational valye

16:37:18 [arthur]

Evren: SPIN is going to allow a literal string of SPARQL

16:37:22 [sandro]

q?

16:37:30 [arthur]

Harold: don't want to parse another grammar

16:37:50 [arthur]

Evren: SPIN has both - RDF based and literal SPARQL string

16:38:45 [Arnaud]

ack eric

16:38:45 [Zakim]

ericP, you wanted to ask if the expressivity of SPIN in RDF is of opperational valye

16:39:33 [arthur]

Evren: what is the value of the RDF representation of SPARQL in SPIN? Is this just for query governance?

16:40:24 [DavidBooth]

q+ to say I think a main reason for the RDF-based SPIN syntax is the ability to change namespaces in the query

16:40:24 [arthur]

Harold: RDF is useful for impact analysis

16:40:34 [Arnaud]

ack david

16:40:34 [Zakim]

DavidBooth, you wanted to say I think a main reason for the RDF-based SPIN syntax is the ability to change namespaces in the query

16:40:50 [SteveS]

q+ validation results

16:41:02 [Arnaud]

ack steve

16:41:11 [Arnaud]

q=

16:41:27 [Arnaud]

queue=

16:41:30 [hsolbri]

q+

16:41:33 [arthur]

Steve: need to also see why validation fails

16:41:37 [Arnaud]

ack hsolbri

16:42:32 [DavidBooth]

q+ to say one thing I particularly like about SPIN CONSTRUCT rules is the ability to attach arbitrary data to a validation error

16:42:38 [guoqian]

hsolbri: meta-repository may be an argument for RDF validation

16:42:41 [Arnaud]

ack david

16:42:41 [Zakim]

DavidBooth, you wanted to say one thing I particularly like about SPIN CONSTRUCT rules is the ability to attach arbitrary data to a validation error

16:42:45 [arthur]

Harold: metadata merging is important so RDF is useful in that use case

16:43:07 [arthur]

David" SPIN CONSTRUCT rules allow attachment of other data

16:43:37 [SteveS]

I'd like the validation results to not only provide a useful message that a tool could possibly recover, but also the context such as the triples causing problem and rules that cause it (some guidance on how to become validate would be helpful)

16:44:00 [arthur]

Arnaud: need to discuss what is affordable

16:44:34 [arthur]

Arnaud: need to prioritize what we can do in a 2-year period

16:44:57 [dbs]

Arnaud: experience shows that the experience of developing standards in charter groups can be brutal [laughs]

16:45:12 [arthur]

End

16:45:14 [Zakim]

- +1.510.435.aacc

16:45:16 [Zakim]

-DaveReynolds

16:45:26 [arthur]

Break for lunch courtesy of W3C

16:45:51 [Zakim]

-dbs

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17:04:44 [arthur]

check out this w3c spec that contains Z notation http://www.w3.org/TR/wsdl20/wsdl20-z.html

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17:25:27 [guoqian]

guoqian: my presentation slides: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/d/d6/RDF-Validation-Workshop-GJiang-v1.0.pdf

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17:57:32 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Topic: Guoquin Jian presentation - Mayo Clinic

17:58:21 [Ashok_Malhotra]

s/Jian/Jiang/

17:58:40 [Arnaud]

zakim, who's on the phone?

17:58:40 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Workshop_room

18:02:24 [Zakim]

+ +1.510.435.aadd

18:02:38 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 1: Secondary Use of EHR Data

18:03:13 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 2: Dimensions of data quality and quality assessment

18:03:29 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 3: Use of Data Standards

18:04:32 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 4: Clinical Info Modelling Initiave

18:04:50 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 5: CIMI Ideas

18:05:34 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 6: Sdantardized clinical info models for secondary use

18:06:26 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 7: Clinical Element Models: -- Authored in CDL distributed as XML Schema

18:06:41 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 8: Architecture

18:07:48 [hsolbri]

Clinical Element Models converted to XML Schema, Instance data to XML then Schema to OWL and instance to RDF

18:08:37 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 9: Screen shot - Clinical Admin Browser. Publicly available

18:09:27 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 10: CEMs from XML to OWL

18:09:50 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 11: Check constraints and validate

18:10:05 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... Use SPARQL

18:10:25 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Eric: Is SPIN generated fron Schema

18:10:41 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Jiang: No, by hand ... perhaps in future'

18:11:13 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 12: Another SPARQL example

18:11:45 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 13: Standardized Semantic Web Services

18:12:35 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 14: Background on CIMI model

18:12:53 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 15: Reference Model picture

18:13:24 [arthur]

there is a SPARQL error on chart 16

18:13:34 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 16: Data values

18:14:03 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 17: Case Studies

18:15:02 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 18: Mindmap View

18:15:59 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 19: RDF Rendering of Domain Template

18:16:43 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... usinf SPIN in an RDF Form

18:16:55 [Ashok_Malhotra]

s/usinf/using/

18:17:28 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 20: Discussion Points

18:17:50 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... RDF Validation against CIMI Models

18:18:14 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... Challenging issues (data types, value set binding)

18:18:38 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... XML Semantics Resuse Technology

18:19:33 [Ashok_Malhotra]

scribenick: Ashok_Malhotra

18:19:41 [arthur]

i don't undertand XSD->OWL

18:19:56 [arthur]

XSD = constraints, OWL = Inference

18:21:16 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Slide 21: Picure showing Technologies and their Relationships

18:21:42 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Overlay: BRIDGing Technology

18:22:11 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Arthur: How can you translate XML Schema to OWL or UML to OWL?

18:23:23 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Eric explains ... they are different but can be used in similar ways

18:24:28 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Discussion on translation between UML and OWL, XML and OWL

18:25:49 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... constraints and reasoning are just different

18:26:29 [Arnaud]

zakim, who's on the phone?

18:26:29 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Workshop_room, +1.510.435.aadd

18:27:39 [kcoyle]

aadd is kcoyle

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18:28:29 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Q&A

18:28:49 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Discussion of constraint checking vs. inference

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18:30:30 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Arnaud: Are you doing this mapping on Slide 10 or are you thinking of doing this?

18:31:24 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... asks about validation at different levels

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18:34:44 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Harold: This is a vision ...

18:38:10 [Ashok_Malhotra]

MIF is an extension of UML with a higher degree of expressivity

18:38:37 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Harold: Effort to translate MIF to OWL

18:38:54 [ssimister]

My slides are online here: http://rdf-validation.appspot.com

18:41:12 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Topic: Presentation by Shawn Simister, Google

18:41:35 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... RDF Validation at Google

18:42:25 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... we are triplifying the Web

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18:44:50 [Ashok_Malhotra]

SS: What approaches did we consider?

18:45:14 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... Schematron, SchemaRama

18:45:46 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... SPIN constraints

18:46:54 [sandro]

ss: nice to be able to have metadata on constraints, like for severity of violations

18:47:13 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... OWL Integrity Constraints

18:47:30 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... Our Solution ... path-based constraints

18:53:17 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... What did we learn

18:53:42 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... Most constraints are property paths. SPARQL handles the rest

18:55:18 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... constraints describes the app, not the world it inhabits

18:55:32 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... Constraints need to be app specific

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18:57:05 [sandro]

q+ to ask about required-vs-optional property paths

18:57:28 [sandro]

arnaud: how do the constraints get created? do you do it, does the developer?

18:57:58 [sandro]

ss: some of each. gmail team had their own internal software with their internal test cases, so it as easy to get them to generate stuff for us.

18:58:08 [guoqian]

-- schema.org

19:00:01 [sandro]

sandro: surely an app has one set of property paths for what's needed to use the data at all, and another that it might be able to use.

19:01:34 [sandro]

ss: we only talk about the required stuff. for one thing, we're trying to not discourage people from providing information we don't happen to use yet.

19:01:55 [sandro]

sandro: It would be nice, probably, to still tell folks what data you can use if provided.

19:02:00 [sandro]

ss: good idea.

19:06:29 [Ashok_Malhotra]

DBooth: Are the paths RDF property paths?

19:06:46 [Ashok_Malhotra]

SS: No they are not ... very similar

19:07:40 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Arthur: Why do you split into context and constraints when you can use a single SPARQL query?

19:07:54 [Ashok_Malhotra]

SS: The design came from Schematron

19:08:07 [mgh]

Seems like a constrained subset of the property paths that can be used in SPARQL 1.1 - not supporting *, + notation

19:10:14 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Question about the parser

19:11:10 [Ashok_Malhotra]

SS: Superset of RDF ...

19:11:42 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... not public yet

19:14:07 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Topic: Tim Cole - Using SPARQL to validate Open Annotation RDF Graphs

19:14:43 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Context: W3C Open Annotation CG

19:15:06 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... has 102 members

19:16:19 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... narrow and easy usecase for RDF

19:17:28 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Tim describes the OA data model

19:19:45 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... describes the OA Ontology

19:20:58 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... LoreStore Annotation Repository

19:21:21 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... store, search, query, display and validate annotations

19:23:47 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... approach

19:29:23 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Bob Morros on FilteredPush RDF Validation

19:29:51 [Ashok_Malhotra]

s/Morros/Morris/

19:35:34 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... rules are groups into RuleSets. All rules in a set must be valid

19:36:03 [Ashok_Malhotra]

s/groups/grouped/

19:39:01 [Ashok_Malhotra]

... the OAD namespace has some extensions to the OA namespace

19:40:36 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Q&A

19:41:01 [Ashok_Malhotra]

Tim: I was happy that most of these topics came up in the more complex cases as well

19:48:00 [Ashok_Malhotra]

COFEE BREAK for 15 Minutes

19:50:06 [Zakim]

- +1.510.435.aadd

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20:14:24 [ericP]

-> http://piratepad.net/E255z6M73S pirate pad

20:15:45 [roger]

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20:16:26 [Ashok_Malhotra]

REQUIREMENTS using PiratePad ... link above

20:16:42 [arthur]

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20:16:49 [roger]

can you re-send link please Ashok ?

20:18:35 [Ashok_Malhotra]

http://piratepad.net/E255z6M73S pirate pad

20:19:20 [sandro]

(pad is full now)

20:20:36 [Zakim]

+ +1.510.435.aaee

20:20:39 [Zakim]

-Workshop_room

20:20:40 [Zakim]

+Workshop_room

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20:21:54 [kcoyle]

Zakim, aaee is kcoyle

20:21:54 [Zakim]

+kcoyle; got it

20:52:48 [Zakim]

-kcoyle

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21:49:21 [Zakim]

-Workshop_room

21:49:22 [Zakim]

SW_(RDFVal)8:30AM has ended

21:49:22 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.617.715.aaaa, dbs, DaveReynolds, aisaac, +1.510.435.aabb, Workshop_room, +1.510.435.aacc, +1.510.435.aadd, +1.510.435.aaee, kcoyle

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