IRC log of tt on 2013-09-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:54:01 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #tt
13:54:01 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-tt-irc
13:54:03 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
13:54:03 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #tt
13:54:05 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be TTML
13:54:05 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
13:54:06 [trackbot]: Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
13:54:06 [trackbot]: Date: 05 September 2013
13:59:01 [pal]: pal has joined #tt
13:59:22 [Zakim]: SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started
13:59:29 [Zakim]: +??P7
13:59:36 [glenn]: zakim, ??p7 is me
13:59:36 [Zakim]: +glenn; got it
13:59:37 [Zakim]: +pal
13:59:50 [Zakim]: +??P9
13:59:53 [nigel]: zakim, ??P9 is me
13:59:53 [Zakim]: +nigel; got it
14:00:30 [tmichel]: tmichel has joined #tt
14:01:10 [Zakim]: + +1.858.882.aaaa
14:01:24 [glenn]: zakim, aaaa is mike
14:01:24 [Zakim]: +mike; got it
14:01:50 [glenn]: chair: glenn
14:02:13 [nigel]: scribeNick: nigel
14:02:34 [glenn]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/agenda
14:03:31 [nigel]: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac
14:04:14 [nigel]: action-190
14:04:14 [trackbot]: action-190 -- Thierry Michel to Will create a wiki for the face-to-face meeting -- due 2013-08-15 -- OPEN
14:04:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/190
14:04:18 [glenn]: close action-190
14:04:18 [trackbot]: Closed action-190.
14:04:38 [nigel]: actino-184
14:04:41 [nigel]: action-184
14:04:41 [trackbot]: action-184 -- Thierry Michel to Check with Angel if Monday/Friday is ok for TPAC 2013 -- due 2013-08-01 -- OPEN
14:04:41 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/184
14:04:57 [Zakim]: +??P19
14:05:06 [tmichel]: zakim, ???P19 is me
14:05:06 [Zakim]: sorry, tmichel, I do not recognize a party named '???P19'
14:05:22 [plh]: plh has joined #tt
14:05:35 [nigel]: zakim, ??P19 is tmichel
14:05:35 [Zakim]: +tmichel; got it
14:05:36 [Zakim]: +Plh
14:05:48 [nigel]: close action-184
14:05:48 [trackbot]: Closed action-184.
14:07:48 [nigel]: topic: face to face at TPAC
14:08:16 [nigel]: glenn: profiles is likely to be a popular topic for discussion.
14:09:10 [tmichel]: TTwG is registered for monday and Friday at TPAC
14:09:12 [tmichel]: http://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/#GroupSchedule
14:09:21 [nigel]: glenn: folk should add items for discussion onto that subpage of the wiki for consideration by sean on his return
14:09:56 [mijordan]: mijordan has joined #tt
14:09:58 [nigel]: mike: add IANA registration to discussion topics
14:10:18 [nigel]: action-192
14:10:18 [trackbot]: action-192 -- Mike Dolan to Work with phillipe to deal with IANA submission -- due 2013-08-29 -- OPEN
14:10:18 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/192
14:10:59 [nigel]: plh: will seek registration today or tomorrow and proceed with this action
14:11:04 [Zakim]: +[Adobe]
14:11:35 [nigel]: glenn: important to use the content of the editorial draft for resubmission.
14:11:40 [nigel]: plh: will use that.
14:13:13 [nigel]: action-88
14:13:13 [trackbot]: action-88 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Make sure the TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175. -- due 2013-07-31 -- OPEN
14:13:13 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88
14:13:37 [nigel]: glenn: can close when registration process is finished.
14:13:43 [nigel]: glenn: also close action 192 when that happens
14:13:55 [nigel]: close action-192
14:13:55 [trackbot]: Closed action-192.
14:14:24 [nigel]: action-194
14:14:24 [trackbot]: action-194 -- Glenn Adams to Move "120% of" from current ed text in 8.2.12 into informative note as recommendation to presentation processor implementers -- due 2013-09-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:14:24 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/194
14:15:14 [glenn]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml1/spec/ttml1.html#style-attribute-lineHeight
14:16:45 [nigel]: glenn: informative note in TTML1 is normative in draft for TTML2
14:17:18 [nigel]: glenn: does this meet nigel's concern?
14:17:36 [nigel]: nigel: yes, you could also add that it is intended to be normative in TTML2, but not necessary.
14:17:48 [nigel]: mike: agree no need to add the extra note.
14:17:51 [nigel]: close action-194
14:17:51 [trackbot]: Closed action-194.
14:17:59 [nigel]: action-197
14:17:59 [trackbot]: action-197 -- Glenn Adams to Check whether issue-173 has already been dealt with -- due 2013-09-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:17:59 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/197
14:18:11 [glenn]: iissue-173
14:18:15 [glenn]: issue-173
14:18:15 [trackbot]: issue-173 -- presentation semantics of control characters and other unmapped characters -- pending review
14:18:15 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/173
14:18:48 [nigel]: glenn: reviewed issue-173 and believes no action needed to edit spec now. marked as pending review.
14:19:15 [nigel]: close issue-173
14:19:15 [trackbot]: Closed issue-173.
14:19:29 [nigel]: close action-197
14:19:29 [trackbot]: Closed action-197.
14:20:04 [nigel]: action-195
14:20:04 [trackbot]: action-195 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Proposing resolution to multiple choices for minimum euclidean distance -- due 2013-09-05 -- OPEN
14:20:04 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/195
14:21:11 [nigel]: nigel: do we need an absolute value reference rather than the term 'highest'?
14:21:20 [nigel]: pal: yes we can improve that sentence
14:21:26 [nigel]: glenn: i.e. round up not down?
14:21:28 [nigel]: pal: yes
14:22:38 [nigel]: glenn: this raises the issue of tracker not generating notifications on changes to actions or issues.
14:23:13 [nigel]: plh: unfortunately there is no such feature. For new actions an email is sent, but not when the status changes. Will check re new comments.
14:23:50 [nigel]: glenn: also requested this feature on the AC list recently. In the meantime we'll have to manually review actions and issues.
14:24:20 [nigel]: plh: I understand the issue. I hope sysreq knows about this. I will check this is on the tracker page list.
14:24:25 [plh]: s/plh/thierry/
14:24:27 [plh]: s/plh/thierry/
14:25:07 [glenn]: action thierry to check if feature request for tracker notifications on action/issue new comment or status change has been added to requested feature list
14:25:07 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-198 - Check if feature request for tracker notifications on action/issue new comment or status change has been added to requested feature list [on Thierry Michel - due 2013-09-12].
14:26:47 [nigel]: glenn: phillipe, we're close to packaging TTML1 with editorial changes since the PER so you can start the publishing process.
14:27:02 [nigel]: glenn: guidance on that, e.g. a target date, would be useful.
14:28:29 [nigel]: plh: need to close the loop with IANA and then get director's approval for publishing the recommendation. Any changes since the end of the last review?
14:28:30 [pal_]: pal_ has joined #tt
14:28:40 [nigel]: glenn: yes, a variety of editorial changes, documented here:
14:29:50 [glenn]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml1/spec/ttml1-changes.html
14:30:45 [nigel]: glenn: this lists changes since the PER was published, which all basically resolve comments made on PER or in working group review.
14:31:29 [nigel]: action-196
14:31:29 [trackbot]: action-196 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Check proposed resolution to issue-159 in relationship to issue-231 and issue-229 -- due 2013-09-05 -- OPEN
14:31:30 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/196
14:32:02 [nigel]: issue-231
14:32:02 [trackbot]: issue-231 -- Individual character rotation -- open
14:32:02 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/231
14:32:24 [nigel]: pal: it looks like the proposed resolution to issue-159 solves issue-231 as well
14:33:18 [nigel]: glenn: was the request intended to support arbitrary angles or just 90 degrees either way?
14:33:24 [nigel]: pal: 90 degrees only.
14:34:21 [nigel]: glenn: the values in issue-159 were mixed sideways and upright where sideways could be clockwise or anti-clockwise depending on the block progression in vertical mode
14:35:05 [nigel]: ... and the writing mode. There are use cases for both directions, but they are effectively controlled by the writing mode.
14:35:42 [nigel]: ... CSS3 defines two additional modes: sideways-left and sideways-right which allow the direction to be set independently of the writing mode.
14:36:28 [nigel]: pal: I think this matches the SMPTE requirement, i.e. individual rotation of each character left or right by 90 degrees.
14:37:06 [nigel]: glenn: the other issue is rotation around the centre of the glyph. In general rotation is around the origin of the glyph rather than the centre.
14:37:24 [nigel]: glenn: this depends also on whether the baseline is horizontal or vertical.
14:38:00 [nigel]: pal: 'around its centre' really means that each glyph should be rotated individually so we need not worry about that.
14:38:18 [nigel]: issue-159
14:38:18 [trackbot]: issue-159 -- Text orientation in I18n script processing -- pending review
14:38:18 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/159
14:38:26 [glenn]: issue-159: glenn to add sidewaysLeft and sidewaysRight values
14:38:26 [trackbot]: Notes added to issue-159 Text orientation in I18n script processing.
14:38:51 [glenn]: issue-159: see also issue-231
14:38:51 [trackbot]: Notes added to issue-159 Text orientation in I18n script processing.
14:39:20 [nigel]: pal: need to wait for Sean to confirm if this resolves issue-159
14:40:17 [nigel]: pal: issue-229 seems different from issue-231 and issue-159. It is instead of glyph rotation concerned with changing the progression direction.
14:40:32 [glenn]: issue-229: glenn thinks this isn't related to issue-159, so sean needs to elaborate if he thinks otherwise
14:40:32 [trackbot]: Notes added to issue-229 Mixed vertical-horizontal progression direction.
14:40:38 [nigel]: ... so the resolution to issue-159 will not resolve issue-229
14:41:06 [nigel]: close action-196
14:41:06 [trackbot]: Closed action-196.
14:41:23 [mike]: I need to drop for this week. Hear everyone next week.
14:41:31 [Zakim]: -mike
14:42:56 [nigel]: issue-170
14:42:56 [trackbot]: issue-170 -- Section 5.2 para 8 is vague regarding optionality of specifying profile in case where profile is negotiated/determined by 'document interchange process' -- pending review
14:42:56 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/170
14:43:00 [nigel]: action-170
14:43:00 [trackbot]: action-170 -- Glenn Adams to Create issue to remove "(in pixels)" from new definition of computed cell size -- due 2013-07-04 -- CLOSED
14:43:00 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/170
14:44:31 [nigel]: close issue-170
14:44:31 [trackbot]: Closed issue-170.
14:44:48 [nigel]: issue-173
14:44:48 [trackbot]: issue-173 -- presentation semantics of control characters and other unmapped characters -- closed
14:44:48 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/173
14:45:21 [nigel]: issue-176
14:45:21 [trackbot]: issue-176 -- Adding support for extent and origin attributes on block elements -- pending review
14:45:21 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/176
14:47:55 [nigel]: glenn: the problem with putting origin and extent directly on p or div could be misinterpreted as meaning the size of the allocation rectangle or the content rectangle to apply
14:48:26 [nigel]: glenn: this is the case if for example in CSS you specify a width for a block element then it is interpreted as a declaration of how much allocation area to assign to the block and not
14:48:37 [nigel]: ... a declaration of an absolutely positioned region in which to put the block.
14:49:34 [nigel]: glenn: my proposal, subject to Sean's review, is to add an inline region, like an inline animation element, as a child of a block element.
14:49:54 [nigel]: ... This is a shorthand for defining the region in the header and referring to it via IDs.
14:50:29 [nigel]: glenn: this is one for the agenda in the f2f meeting. Want to keep as pending review for the time being.
14:51:12 [nigel]: ... in the TTML2 editorial draft, under the terminology section 2.2 I have added new definitions for inline region and out of line region, also incidentally inline and out of line animation,
14:52:04 [nigel]: ... I also modified the syntax for the div and p elements in 7.1.4 and 7.1.5 to add to its content models an optional layout class immediately after the animation class.
14:53:03 [nigel]: ... Under the section 9.3 on layout semantics I have pencilled in a new subsection called Inline Regions 9.3.2 which needs to be filled in.
14:53:19 [nigel]: ... Minor changes are likely in 9.3.3 as a consequence.
14:53:44 [nigel]: ... This technique will minimise the changes to the semantics of the parent synchronic document construction and layout processing.
14:54:19 [nigel]: ... The original idea came from a desire to serialise content in a way that doesn't require pre-defining all of the regions up-front and instead allow them to be defined coincident with the block element
14:56:18 [glenn]: issue-176: nigel asks about whether region needs full specification or can be inherited
14:56:18 [trackbot]: Notes added to issue-176 Adding support for extent and origin attributes on block elements.
14:57:55 [nigel]: glenn: we could specify on the root or layout element the styles etc to inherit in inline or out of line regions
15:00:57 [glenn]: action: glenn to create new issue about need for region elements to obtain inherited styles, possibly from layout or tt element
15:00:58 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-199 - Create new issue about need for region elements to obtain inherited styles, possibly from layout or tt element [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-09-12].
15:01:20 [nigel]: issue-178
15:01:20 [trackbot]: issue-178 -- initial values and style set calculations are unclear, especially for transformable attributes -- pending review
15:01:21 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/178
15:02:08 [nigel]: issue-183
15:02:08 [trackbot]: issue-183 -- semantics of using profile in a document -- pending review
15:02:08 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/183
15:02:39 [nigel]: issue-193
15:02:39 [trackbot]: issue-193 -- Address SMPTE Questions for Region, Border, etc. related to character edge attributes -- pending review
15:02:39 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/193
15:03:56 [nigel]: issue-203
15:03:56 [trackbot]: issue-203 -- Add ttp:version to allow author to indicate which version of TTML content was created for. -- pending review
15:03:56 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/203
15:04:35 [nigel]: glenn: this now implemented in TTML2 draft
15:04:42 [nigel]: pal: is the namespace going to change for TTML2?
15:05:02 [nigel]: glenn: there's no plan to change it. The namespace is defined as being extensible under control of the TTWG.
15:05:17 [nigel]: pal: so this would be a way to tell if a TTML document conforms to TTML1 or TTML2?
15:06:30 [nigel]: glenn: reads draft text.
15:08:01 [nigel]: glenn: this is intended to be separate from profile conformance and definition. It should have no mandatory normative role in processing.
15:09:14 [nigel]: nigel: might this be used for behaviour changes in processors that don't have defined profiles?
15:10:04 [nigel]: glenn: there are two questions there: firstly profile mechanisms and secondly the definition of new profile features to cover changes in behaviour
15:11:21 [nigel]: ... For the time being we can't concretely answer this - we may in the end take it out as being unnecessary or add more semantics that trigger off its value. For future discussion.
15:12:09 [nigel]: glenn: It would be useful to add this to the discussion list for the TPAC meeting.
15:12:45 [glenn]: action: glenn to add ttp:version to items for possible F2F agenda
15:12:45 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-200 - Add ttp:version to items for possible f2f agenda [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-09-12].
15:12:53 [nigel]: pal: we have three mechanisms now: namespace, content profile and version. It would be good to understand the interplay between those three.
15:14:26 [nigel]: glenn: we can not redefine existing profile labels; we can only add new profiles. Similarly with features.
15:15:52 [nigel]: pal: will the TTML2 profiles unambiguously define the version used?
15:16:21 [nigel]: glenn: no - I could create a TTML2 version document that requires dfxp-full or dfxp-presentation so they're orthogonal concepts
15:16:58 [nigel]: pal: so ttp:version is completely informative because the processor only needs to know which normative provisions were used.
15:17:26 [nigel]: ... unless we're really clear people will come up with crazy ways to process/reject documents using faulty logic
15:18:03 [nigel]: glenn: we don't know yet if we will not define normative semantics around the use of a version defined this way. For example we may change basic conformance processing changes
15:18:35 [nigel]: ... we are also making changes about concrete syntax - in version 1 there were recommendations that will be normative in v2. Similarly with time expressions.
15:19:23 [nigel]: ... I can't predict where we'll end up. In SVG it seems to be useful. Similarly in XML headers, and by analogy it could be useful here.
15:20:13 [nigel]: nigel: there's one use case here that's clear - processors will need to know the TTML version to understand the profile mechanism if we change that.
15:20:40 [nigel]: pal: we can already use the profile mechanism.
15:21:05 [nigel]: glenn: we're thinking about declaring content profile independently of what's required by a processor. You could create a TTML2 document that declares conformance with a TTML1 profile and use
15:21:16 [nigel]: ... a TTML1 profile for declaring what support a processor requires.
15:21:36 [nigel]: pal: That's still unambiguous without needing version.
15:21:59 [nigel]: glenn: I don't expect to mandate that a TTML2 document declares its conformance with a particular profile
15:23:20 [nigel]: glenn: If it's pure metadata we can consider removing it. I suggest you submit an issue for this - could be to change it to ttm:version instead of ttp:version.
15:23:43 [nigel]: glenn: I suggest we need to think more about this.
15:23:55 [nigel]: pal: I will file an issue.
15:26:02 [nigel]: pal: we need to specify very clearly how we communicate semantics and version conformance.
15:27:26 [nigel]: close issue-203
15:27:26 [trackbot]: Closed issue-203.
15:27:35 [nigel]: issue-204
15:27:35 [trackbot]: issue-204 -- TTML.next should probably be 2.0, not 1.1 -- pending review
15:27:35 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/204
15:27:45 [nigel]: close issue-204
15:27:45 [trackbot]: Closed issue-204.
15:27:50 [nigel]: issue-208
15:27:50 [trackbot]: issue-208 -- Define behavior for unsupported colors. -- pending review
15:27:50 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/208
15:30:43 [tmichel]: I am sorry I must leave to an appointement ...
15:30:57 [tmichel]: Bye.
15:31:09 [Zakim]: -tmichel
15:31:46 [nigel]: nigel: unsure how this is resolved by the closest color calculation
15:32:38 [nigel]: ... it doesn't maintain contrast where indicated, so foreground and background colors could end up the same where contrast is required.
15:32:58 [nigel]: close issue-208
15:32:58 [trackbot]: Closed issue-208.
15:33:08 [nigel]: issue-225
15:33:13 [trackbot]: issue-225 -- tts:fontSize as percentage of container dimensions -- pending review
15:33:13 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/225
15:34:05 [glenn]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html#style-value-length
15:34:12 [Zakim]: -Plh
15:34:21 [nigel]: pal: likes the idea of an explicit viewport size relationship mechanism
15:34:41 [nigel]: pal: there are now two ways to do this. Either use cell resolution or this one which is really explicit.
15:35:09 [nigel]: glenn: that's correct. If it happens that an em square matches a cell size then there's a third way.
15:37:37 [nigel]: nigel: when calculating vmin or vmax should non-square aspect ratios be taken into account?
15:38:27 [nigel]: glenn: the width and height of the root container region turns into a specific value in TTML pixels, not related to aspect ratio. The pixel aspect ratio parameter comes into play independently.
15:41:40 [nigel]: action nigel to check if pixel aspect ratio makes a difference when performing the min and max comparison
15:41:41 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-201 - Check if pixel aspect ratio makes a difference when performing the min and max comparison [on Nigel Megitt - due 2013-09-12].
15:44:04 [nigel]: pal: what should the preferred way of achieving this be, for document authors?
15:45:24 [glenn]: issue-225: add comment under tts:fontSize indicating that vw/vh could also be expressed using cell (c) units
15:45:24 [trackbot]: Notes added to issue-225 tts:fontSize as percentage of container dimensions.
15:47:26 [glenn]: action-201: is associated with issue-225
15:47:26 [trackbot]: Notes added to action-201 Check if pixel aspect ratio makes a difference when performing the min and max comparison.
15:47:55 [nigel]: issue-227
15:47:55 [trackbot]: issue-227 -- <p> fade-up and –down -- pending review
15:47:55 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/227
15:57:51 [nigel]: glenn: describes new animation feature that addresses both fade up and fade down and other use cases.
15:58:52 [nigel]: pal: this appears to resolve the opacity requirement. There's another issue open relating more closely to animation requirements.
15:59:32 [nigel]: glenn: animation is needed for the opacity requirement and could not be with set.
15:59:40 [nigel]: close issue-227
15:59:40 [trackbot]: Closed issue-227.
15:59:58 [nigel]: glenn: won't be able to attend next week
16:00:25 [nigel]: nigel: won't be able to attend next week or the week after.
16:00:31 [nigel]: pal: won't be able to attend the 19th.
16:00:46 [glenn]: regrets for nigel and glenn for Sep 12
16:01:21 [glenn]: regrets for nigel and pal for Sep 19
16:01:35 [glenn]: note that IBC overlaps Sep 12 so others may be absent
16:02:12 [Zakim]: -pal
16:02:20 [Zakim]: -[Adobe]
16:02:20 [nigel]: trackbot, end meeting
16:02:20 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
16:02:22 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been glenn, pal, nigel, +1.858.882.aaaa, mike, tmichel, Plh, [Adobe]
16:02:28 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:02:28 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-tt-minutes.html trackbot
16:02:29 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
16:02:29 [RRSAgent]: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-tt-actions.rdf :
16:02:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: glenn to create new issue about need for region elements to obtain inherited styles, possibly from layout or tt element [1]
16:02:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-tt-irc#T15-00-57
16:02:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: glenn to add ttp:version to items for possible F2F agenda [2]
16:02:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-tt-irc#T15-12-45