14:56:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:56:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-irc
15:01:52 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:52 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
15:01:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, chaals, davidb, SteveF, MarkS, janina, hober, trackbot
15:02:30 <janina> zakim, this will be 2119
15:02:30 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 62 minutes ago
15:02:36 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:02:41 <SteveF> agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:02:43 <SteveF> agenda+ Publication of "Using WAI-ARIA in HTML" – PF WG must approve this heartbeat document.  [see below]
15:02:44 <SteveF> agenda+ Status of longdesc LC bugs – see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Sep/0006.html [see below]
15:02:46 <SteveF> agenda+ Confirmation that the TF is okay with the closure of the following two CfCs [see below]
15:02:47 <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:47 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has not yet started, paulc
15:02:47 <SteveF> agenda+ HTML5 testing
15:02:47 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see paulc, RRSAgent, Zakim, chaals, davidb, SteveF, MarkS, janina, hober, trackbot
15:02:48 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has not yet started, janina
15:02:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see paulc, RRSAgent, Zakim, chaals, davidb, SteveF, MarkS, janina, hober, trackbot
15:02:49 <SteveF> agenda+ Alt Edits Review [See Below]
15:02:50 <SteveF> agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media;
15:02:52 <SteveF> agenda+ Potential for TF Participation at TPAC 2013?
15:02:53 <SteveF> agenda+ HTML 5.1 Objectives -- Open Discussion
15:02:55 <SteveF> agenda+ Other Business
15:02:56 <SteveF> agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:02:58 <SteveF> agenda+ be done
15:03:06 <MarkS> regrets: david macdonald, chaals
15:03:13 <MarkS> zakim, this is 2119
15:03:13 <Zakim> ok, MarkS; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
15:03:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:03:34 <MarkS> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see MarkS, ??P22, [IPcaller], [Microsoft], John_Foliot, [IPcaller.a]
15:03:38 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:03:47 <Zakim> +Judy
15:04:36 <janina> zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)
15:04:36 <Zakim> ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM already started
15:04:47 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see MarkS, ??P22, [IPcaller], [Microsoft], John_Foliot, [IPcaller.a], Judy
15:04:57 <janina> zakim, ??P22 is me
15:04:57 <Zakim> +janina; got it
15:05:08 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
15:05:09 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
15:05:21 <LJWatson> scribenick LJWatson
15:05:30 <MarkS> zakim, P22 is janina
15:05:30 <Zakim> sorry, MarkS, I do not recognize a party named 'P22'
15:05:50 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:05:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from SteveF]
15:06:01 <LJWatson> Scribe: Léonie Watson
15:06:05 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 1
15:06:05 <Zakim> agendum 1, Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, closed
15:06:06 <MarkS> zakim, [IP is LJWatson
15:06:07 <Zakim> I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:06:07 <Zakim> 2. Publication of "Using WAI-ARIA in HTML" – PF WG must approve this heartbeat document.  [from see below via SteveF]
15:06:07 <Zakim> sorry, MarkS, I do not recognize a party named '[IP'
15:06:09 <paulc_> paulc_ has joined #html-a11y
15:06:12 <paulc_> rejoining
15:06:13 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:06:13 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Publication of "Using WAI-ARIA in HTML" – PF WG must approve this heartbeat document. " taken up [from see below]
15:06:40 <MarkS> zakim, [Microsoft] is paul
15:06:40 <Zakim> +paul; got it
15:06:51 <LJWatson> JS: PF hasn't discussed this yet.
15:07:03 <MarkS> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see MarkS, janina, [IPcaller], paul, John_Foliot, [IPcaller.a], Judy
15:07:14 <MarkS> zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
15:07:14 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
15:07:32 <LJWatson> JS: Do we have a previously open action on this?
15:07:38 <LJWatson> SF: I think the TF does.
15:07:50 <LJWatson> JS: Has the document changed since the last publication?
15:08:06 <LJWatson> SF: Yes. Changes in response to feedback.
15:08:46 <paulc_> From the SOTD: This document was developed through the HTML Accessibility Taskforce, with approval by the Protocols and Formats Working Group, and published by the HTML Working Group.
15:09:03 <LJWatson> JS: Shawn Henry will want to take a look, to ensure WAI is correctly represented in the document. That may add time.
15:09:14 <paulc_> See http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-in-html/
15:09:25 <LJWatson> JS: Will ensure this comes up on the PF call next week.
15:10:12 <LJWatson> JS: Is it reasonable to go out as a heartbeat?
15:10:52 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:11:15 <LJWatson> SF: It's more about the process.
15:12:01 <Judy> q+
15:12:06 <LJWatson> PC: You should do what's required. It appears to have been approved by all three groups.
15:12:11 <LJWatson> JB: It hasn't.
15:13:12 <LJWatson> JB: Accidently something was put in the document status that wasn't accurate. We need to clear that up. It won't be ready to go out with the other heartbeat documents, but let's do it the right way.
15:13:29 <LJWatson> PC: There is no batch of heartbeat documents. They're trickling out one at a time.
15:13:51 <LJWatson> PC: PF and the TF should decide what they want to do, and keep the chairs updated.
15:14:09 <LJWatson> SF: We need to get the CFC for PF and the TF under way then.
15:14:38 <LJWatson> JS: Is it ready for that?
15:14:45 <LJWatson> SF: Yes.
15:15:45 <LJWatson> JS: Next time there is a heartbeat call, that should trigger a response from the TF to "dot the Is and cross the Ts" of the document.
15:15:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:15:54 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:15:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:16:01 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:16:01 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LJWatson
15:16:16 <Judy> q?
15:16:19 <Judy> q-
15:16:23 <LJWatson> zakim, queue
15:16:23 <Zakim> I don't understand 'queue', LJWatson
15:16:38 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:16:38 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Status of longdesc LC bugs – see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Sep/0006.html" taken up [from see below]
15:17:20 <LJWatson> SF: Chaals sent his regrets.
15:17:44 <JF> Q+
15:18:01 <SteveF> chaals writes: We have some proposed tests, and I have posted some results in the wiki page - and added a new test, based on comments from Leonie. Next week I expect to have properly logged bugs matching comments received so far.
15:18:38 <LJWatson> PC: Chaals mentioned using a tracker tool. Will you not use Bugzilla?
15:19:00 <LJWatson> MS: The tracker tool is useful, but we'll also file bugs when we find them in Bugzilla.
15:19:19 <LJWatson> PC: It's a useful way of keeping a "paper trail".
15:19:42 <LJWatson> JF: Mark, do you mean the comment tracker?
15:19:47 <LJWatson> MS: Yes.
15:20:06 <LJWatson> JF: It's not clear how to comment via the tracker.
15:20:47 <LJWatson> MS: It's best for working on responses collaboratively. Best approach is to use email for comments, then the tracker for working up any resulting docs.
15:20:53 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:20:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:21:04 <JF> Q-
15:21:07 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:21:08 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Confirmation that the TF is okay with the closure of the following two CfCs" taken up [from see below]
15:21:32 <SteveF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Jun/0033.html
15:22:12 <LJWatson> SF: MS: We gave our formal respnse yesterday, and appreciate the flexibility from the HTML WG on the lateness of that response.
15:22:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:22:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, [IPCaller is Rich
15:22:28 <Zakim> sorry, richardschwerdtfeger, I do not recognize a party named '[IPCaller'
15:22:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, IPCaller is Rich
15:22:38 <Zakim> +Rich; got it
15:23:11 <LJWatson> PC: Where was the response sent?
15:23:54 <MarkS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Sep/0013.html
15:24:10 <MarkS> HTML5 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Sep/0012.html
15:25:33 <LJWatson> PC: High level summary is that this is a great job Mark. You've given the chairs what they need to take your input and come to a proposed decision on how to reflect it.
15:25:59 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:28:01 <LJWatson> MS: Spec states that an image with empty alt should have a role of presentation. We'll need to push the browsers to implement that.
15:28:25 <LJWatson> RS: That'll take the image out of the accessibility tree.
15:28:42 <LJWatson> CS: Is it in the HTML to Accessibility API mapping document?
15:28:56 <LJWatson> SF: Yes, think it is.
15:30:06 <LJWatson> JS: This is fundamental. I think we're just short of implementations though.
15:30:45 <LJWatson> JS: The question is whether we feel this is unimplementable, even though it hasn't yet been implemented?
15:31:00 <LJWatson> RS: It's definitely implementable.
15:31:11 <LJWatson> CS: Have we asked anyone other than Firefox about this?
15:31:49 <LJWatson> RS: There's a lot in HTML5 to implement, removing something from the acc tree probably wasn't a high priority!
15:31:59 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:32:49 <LJWatson> MS: the spec says the aria-level should be adjusted based on the outline algorithmn.
15:33:00 <LJWatson> RS: The outline algorithm is out the window now, right?
15:33:10 <LJWatson> SF: Yes.
15:34:18 <LJWatson> JS: Strikes me this is useful information - the h1, h2 etc.
15:34:47 <LJWatson> SF: So having heading levels not reflect the nesting level is something you'd like implemented?
15:34:56 <LJWatson> JS: I think so.
15:35:46 <LJWatson> SF: If you nest <section> elements, the subsequent heading would then be reported as an h4.
15:36:27 <LJWatson> SF: The spec would need updating.
15:37:13 <LJWatson> MS: Headings are still used arbitrarily by most developers. With this feature we give ATs the option to allow the user to switch.
15:37:43 <LJWatson> SF: The AT should receive information about the outline and/or what level the heading is.
15:38:18 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:38:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:39:29 <LJWatson> Think we need to revisit what's in the spec. HTML5.1 or ARIA 1.1, or do we make a case for it under HTML5.0?
15:40:01 <LJWatson> SF: 5.0 should reflect current implementations, we can revisit it in 5.1.
15:43:00 <LJWatson> SF: we need to look at how labels, sectioning elements and headings interlate.
15:43:39 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:43:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:44:30 <LJWatson> RS: On focus rings, in Chrome if something doesn't have focus, you can assign location information to it instead. It's a bandaid.
15:44:50 <LJWatson> SF: That's in Canary?
15:44:57 <LJWatson> RS: Yes.
15:46:04 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:46:04 <Zakim> agendum 5. "HTML5 testing" taken up [from SteveF]
15:46:40 <LJWatson> MS: We concluded the work on the CFC. We should continue looking at it though.
15:47:17 <LJWatson> JS: I'd like to suggest a motion of thank to Mark for his work on this.
15:47:24 <LJWatson> Thanks from everyone.
15:47:26 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:47:26 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Alt Edits Review" taken up [from See Below]
15:48:15 <LJWatson> SF: Have had a discussion with Joshue, they've conducted a review and have comments. Have asked him to send them through to the TF and file bugs.
15:48:33 <LJWatson> JS: We're getting close then?
15:49:08 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:49:08 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media;" taken up [from SteveF]
15:50:08 <MarkS> LW: bug triage met intermittently over summer season
15:50:11 <JF> Q+
15:50:39 <MarkS> …worked with mark on research required for html5 testing cfc
15:50:44 <SteveF> leonie: need people for bug triage
15:50:44 <MarkS> …continuing to have a hard time getting experienced members on the calls
15:52:01 <LJWatson> JF: Will help out but call times are difficult.
15:52:19 <LJWatson> LW: Calls are currently 6pm BST, think that's 10am PST.
15:53:33 <LJWatson> SF: API mapping is moving forward.There is a CFC coming up, but lots more work to do. Alexander Surkov is now on board and helping us greatly.
15:53:44 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:53:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:54:04 <LJWatson> SF: Media?
15:54:20 <LJWatson> JF: We keep trying, but Janina and I are "like ships in the night"...
15:54:30 <LJWatson> JB: Shall we give you a deadline?
15:54:57 <LJWatson> JS: 2pm yours, 5pm mine, that works!
15:55:05 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:55:05 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LJWatson
15:55:22 <JF> -
15:55:27 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:55:27 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LJWatson
15:55:31 <JF> Q-
15:55:37 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
15:55:37 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Potential for TF Participation at TPAC 2013?" taken up [from SteveF]
15:56:16 <LJWatson> SF: Won't be  at TPAC.
15:56:22 <LJWatson> JF: Neither will I.
15:56:25 <LJWatson> LW: Me either.
15:56:33 <LJWatson> MS: I'll be there and for Test It Forward too.
15:56:43 <LJWatson> JS: I'll be there for IndieUI.
15:56:51 <LJWatson> PC: Will the TF want any WG time?
15:57:01 <LJWatson> JS: Doesn't look like it.
15:57:15 <LJWatson> JB: There could be some remote participation?
15:57:24 <LJWatson> PC: The time difference is brutal.
15:58:58 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
15:58:58 <LJWatson> PC: One obvious topic would be longdesc, if we do meet at TPAC.
15:59:20 <LJWatson> PC: Also possibly Media Streaming?
15:59:39 <LJWatson> JB: Both are interesting ideas.
16:00:08 <LJWatson> JB: If we can hold open the possibility of a F2F at TPAC a little longer, that would be good.
16:00:14 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:00:48 <LJWatson> PC: There is a vicious circle, people not going because they feel there is no critical mass of people, and no critical mass because people aren't going.
16:01:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> dropping
16:01:38 <LJWatson> PC: Another possibility, if we don't have critical mass but many local observers, perhaps we could spend some time presenting on what the TF etc. is doing?
16:01:42 <Zakim> -Rich
16:01:53 <LJWatson> JB: We're working on this idea already.
16:02:08 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
16:02:52 <LJWatson> PC: Would be glad to help.
16:02:57 <LJWatson> B: Thank you.
16:03:08 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:03:13 <Zakim> -paul
16:03:38 <Zakim> -Judy
16:03:43 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:03:47 <Zakim> -MarkS
16:03:48 <Zakim> -janina
16:03:59 <Zakim> -LJWatson
16:03:59 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
16:03:59 <Zakim> Attendees were MarkS, John_Foliot, Judy, janina, paul, LJWatson, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly
16:05:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has left #html-a11y
16:05:13 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:05:21 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:06:06 <LJWatson> Meeting: HTML A11y TF telecon
16:06:13 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:06:46 <LJWatson> Chair: Steve Faulkner
16:06:54 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:07:23 <LJWatson> zakim, clear agenda
16:07:23 <Zakim> agenda cleared
16:07:28 <LJWatson> zakim, please part
16:07:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:07:34 <LJWatson> rrsagent, please part
16:07:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items