IRC log of ua on 2013-08-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:10:35 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-irc
15:10:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:10:37 [Zakim]
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15:10:39 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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"WAI_UAWG" matches WAI_UAWG()11:30AM, and WAI_UAWG(CHAIRS)10:30AM, trackbot
15:10:40 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:10:40 [trackbot]
Date: 27 August 2013
15:11:05 [kford]
zakim, code?
15:11:05 [Zakim]
sorry, kford, I don't know what conference this is
15:11:33 [kford]
zakim, code?
15:11:34 [Zakim]
sorry, kford, I don't know what conference this is
15:51:19 [jeanne]
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meeting: UAWG F2F
15:52:17 [jeanne]
chair: Jim & Kelly
15:52:25 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html jeanne
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16:02:09 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html kford
16:02:21 [kford]
Scribe: kford
16:02:34 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/UAAG20/
16:05:05 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/commentsWD.html
16:05:30 [kford]
Topic: OCAD 48 5.1.2
16:07:38 [kford]
Group talking about different locations for this point.
16:08:35 [kford]
Group sees some value in moving standards compliance earlier
16:11:03 [kford]
Group talking about numbering.
16:11:11 [kford]
And perceived importance.
16:13:43 [kford]
KP: We covered some of the suggestions around standards in the last editorial pass.
16:14:24 [kford]
Resolution: Groupdecided to leave 5.1.2 as is and OCAD is closed.
16:14:33 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:14:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html kford
16:14:52 [kford]
Topic: OCAD 46 4.1.6
16:15:15 [Jan]
Action: Jeanne to check capitalization of handle of 5.1.2 and 5.1.3
16:15:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-870 - Check capitalization of handle of 5.1.2 and 5.1.3 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-03].
16:16:03 [jeanne]
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16:16:51 [kford]
JA 4.1.6 is related onscreen text
16:19:14 [AllanJ]
4.1.6 OCAD46
16:19:15 [AllanJ]
proposal not accepted. 416 items are related to onscreen text.
16:19:17 [AllanJ]
412 are related to user interface components that have a name, role, state.
16:20:39 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:20:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html jeanne
16:20:51 [kford]
GL: 4.1.6 K seems a bit quirksome.
16:21:04 [kford]
Group talks about history.
16:21:23 [kford]
JAN: Going to be hard to find implamentations.
16:23:01 [kford]
More discussion from GL and JR if parts of 4.1.6 are to platform specific.
16:33:17 [kford]
More discussion about separating 4.1.2 and 4.1.6
16:34:53 [kford]
JR: We do this separation in speech.
16:35:04 [kford]
JR reads from what we have in the doc around speech.
16:35:44 [kford]
JR: The speech model is an understandable model.
16:35:51 [kford]
KP I agree
16:36:36 [kford]
Discussion about keeping them separate, similar to what we do with speech synthesis.
16:40:49 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:40:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html kford
16:42:02 [kford]
JR now describing how ATAG conveys similar info from this area.
16:42:33 [kford]
KP asking if 4.1.1 covers this info.
16:43:18 [kford]
KP asking if 4.1.1 covers this info.Selection and focus are really important. They shuld be moved to 4.1.2 and then move leave 4.1.6
16:49:31 [Jan]
4.1.2 Expose basic properties: For all user interface components including user interface, rendered content, generated content, and alternative content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name, (b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus. (Level A)
16:50:01 [kford]
Group working on reworiding for 4.1.2 and 4.1.6
16:50:26 [Jan]
4.1.2 Expose basic properties: For all user interface components including the user agent user interface, rendered content, generated content, and unrendered alternative content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name, (b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus. (Level A)
16:51:28 [Jan]
4.1.2 Expose basic properties: For all user interface components including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name, (b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus. (Level A)
16:52:22 [Jan]
4.1.2 Expose basic properties: For all user interface components including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name, (b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus. (Level A)
16:53:07 [Jan]
4.1.2 Expose basic properties: For all user interface components, including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name, (b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus. (Level A)
17:01:21 [Jan]
4.1.6 Expose additional properties: For all user interface components, including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service, if the properties are supported by the service: (a) the bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements, (b) font family of text, (c) font size of...
17:01:22 [Jan]
...text, (d) foreground color of text, (e) background color of text, (f) highlighting, (g) keyboard commands. (Level AA)
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17:02:29 [Jan]
4.1.6 Expose additional properties: For all user interface components, including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service, if the properties are supported by the service: (a) the bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements, (b) font family of text, (c) font size of...
17:02:30 [Jan]
...text, (d) foreground color of text, (e) background color of text, (f) highlighting, (g) keyboard commands. (Level AA)
17:02:33 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:04:41 [Jan]
4.1.6 Expose additional properties: For all user interface components, including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service, if the properties are supported by the service: (a) the bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements, (b) font family of text, (c) font size of...
17:04:42 [Jan]
...text, (d) foreground and background colors for text, (e) highlighting, (f) keyboard commands. (Level AA)
17:05:11 [Jan]
4.1.6 Expose Additional Properties: For all user interface components, including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service, if the properties are supported by the service: (a) the bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements, (b) font family of text, (c) font size of...
17:05:12 [Jan]
...text, (d) foreground and background colors of text, (e) highlighting, (f) keyboard commands. (Level AA)
17:05:36 [Jan]
4.1.2 Expose Basic Properties: For all user interface components, including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name, (b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus. (Level A)
17:08:02 [Jan]
4.1.6 Expose Additional Properties: For all user interface components, including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service, if the properties are supported by the service: (a) the bounding dimensions and coordinates, (b) font family of text, (c) font size of text, (d) foreground...
17:08:04 [Jan]
...and background colors of text, (e) highlighting, (f) keyboard commands. (Level AA)
17:08:27 [Jan]
4.1.6 Expose Additional Properties: For all user interface components, including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service, if the properties are supported by the service: (a) bounding dimensions and coordinates, (b) font family of text, (c) font size of text, (d) foreground and...
17:08:28 [Jan]
...background colors of text, (e) highlighting, (f) keyboard commands. (Level AA)
17:10:06 [kford]
Scribe: JR
17:10:16 [Jan]
Scribe: Jan
17:10:49 [Jan]
Resolution: All agree to use "4.1.2 Expose Basic Properties: For all user interface components, including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name, (b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus. (Level A) "
17:11:15 [Jan]
Resolution: All agree to use "4.1.6 Expose Additional Properties: For all user interface components, including the user agent user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, via a platform accessibility service, if the properties are supported by the service: (a) bounding dimensions and coordinates, (b) font family of text, (c) font size...
17:11:17 [Jan]
...of text, (d) foreground and background colors of text, (e) highlighting, (f) keyboard commands. (Level AA)"
17:12:38 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130827/MasterUAAG20130827.html
17:12:56 [jeanne]
todays Master document <- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130827/MasterUAAG20130827.html
17:21:22 [Admin]
4.1.6 add to end of Intent:
17:21:23 [Admin]
Keyboard commands include direct keyboard commands (e.g. Control-f to select the find box) and keyboard sequences (e.g. Alternate-f, to call up the File menu and select Save As).
17:28:59 [Zakim]
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17:30:05 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:30:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html jeanne
17:30:17 [jeanne]
rrsagent, minutes span days
17:30:17 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'minutes span days', jeanne. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:31:18 [Jan]
Definition of: user interface
17:31:19 [Jan]
For the purposes of UAAG 2.0, *user interface* includes both:
17:31:21 [Jan]
- the *user agent user interface*: the controls (e.g. menus, buttons, prompts, and other components for input and output) and mechanisms (e.g. selection and focus) provided by the user agent ("out of the box") that are not created by content.
17:31:22 [Jan]
- the *content user interface*: the renderings created from the content, such as text, images, form controls, links, and applets.
17:31:24 [Jan]
The document distinguishes them only where required for clarity.
17:31:25 [Jan]
The term *user interface control* refers to a component of the user agent user interface or the content user interface, distinguished where necessary.
17:36:30 [AllanJ]
user agent user interface should include extensions that become part of the user agent user interface (e.g. toolbars, additional menus, etc.)
17:41:45 [kford]
RRSAgent: JA: Explain the difference between 4.1.1 and 5.1.3
17:41:45 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'JA: Explain the difference between 4.1.1 and 5.1.3', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:42:01 [kford]
JA: Explain the difference between 4.1.1 and 5.1.3
17:43:08 [greg]
scribe: greg
17:44:00 [greg]
Jan: 5.1.3 is about UI design, whereas the 4.1 is about exposing things to assistive technology.
17:45:38 [greg]
Resolution: 4.1.2 and 4.1.6 are done, having moved some bullet items from .6 to .2, reduced priority of .6 to AA, and done significant wordsmithing.
18:17:44 [jeanne]
#1 of user interface: the user agent user interface, the controls (e.g. menus, buttons, prompts, and other components for input and output) and mechanisms (e.g. selection and focus) provided by the user agent ("out of the box") that are not created by content. The user agent user interface also includes extensions that become part of the user agent user interface (e.g. toolbars, additional menus,
18:17:44 [jeanne]
etc.)
18:20:33 [greg]
Topic: OAD45 re 4.1.5
18:20:46 [greg]
s/OAD/OCAD/
18:21:24 [greg]
re 4.1.5 Write Access: If the user can modify the state or value of a piece of content through the user interface (e.g., by checking a box or editing a text area), the same degree of write access is available programmatically. (Level A)
18:21:33 [greg]
OCAD45: Still isn't possible for ARIA as far as I know.
18:21:50 [AllanJ]
This is unrelated to ARIA. it is only to allow AT to write to the interface the same way a user can when using a mouse or keyboard.
18:21:54 [greg]
Jan: It is related to ARIA because UI means both UA UI and rendered content.
18:23:05 [greg]
Jan: When an element's state is set using a script, it sets the ARIA state, causing the UA to set a state in the platform API.
18:24:30 [greg]
Jan: Joseph says that for Javascript-drawn checkbox, if you change its state using MSAA the UA does not correctly communicate this to the author's javascript, because it's not due to a Check Event.
18:24:40 [AllanJ]
is this another case of javascript being a blackhole, it is unrecognized by user agent or msaa?
18:24:52 [greg]
Greg: Is that a UA bug?
18:25:07 [greg]
Jan: More that everything hasn't been worked out yet.
18:27:03 [greg]
Greg: If AT uses MSAA to check a checkbox, the UA should map that to an event such as click that it can send to the script, thus hiding the fact that it was not done by a user with a real input device.
18:27:15 [greg]
Jeanne: Seems really important.
18:27:31 [greg]
Jim: Seems to fall into the broad category of javascript problems.
18:28:05 [greg]
Kelly: It will always be the case that there are situations where things cannot be done programmatically.
18:30:45 [greg]
Greg: It's important to ensure that AT can be used to edit content and driving UI the same was as mouse or keyboard, and we do want to support platform API as the method so that AT can be written to be app-neutral.
18:31:21 [greg]
Jan: It isn't worded to require platform API, just some programmatic method.
18:31:23 [greg]
Kelly: Can we take ARIA out of the equation?
18:31:47 [greg]
Jan: Gmail is an example of a complex script that keeps lots of its own state information.
18:32:57 [greg]
Jan: Browser has no problem changing state of a checkbox...
18:34:32 [greg]
Kelly: the browser should expect read and write to everything through the platform API.
18:34:38 [greg]
Jan: Agreed.
18:34:48 [greg]
Kelly: Thus ARIA seems irrelevant here.
18:35:05 [greg]
Jan: Just calling out that ARIA does not solve the write-access part of the problem.
18:35:29 [greg]
Jan: Using ARIA the UA and AT know this element acts as a checkbox...
18:35:54 [greg]
Jan: ...maybe this is fine, and authors just need to catch up.
18:36:02 [greg]
Kelly: I'd leave this, despite implementation questions.
18:36:09 [greg]
Jan: Just wanted to call this out as an issue.
18:36:20 [AllanJ]
+1 leaving it as is
18:36:43 [greg]
Kelly: I want to find out what Chrome and other UA do, what events are bubbled to scripts when element state is changed programmatically.
18:37:33 [greg]
Kelly: The general requirement is still true, this general state is what we need, we assume recognized part is covered somewhere else (at a high level)...
18:38:53 [greg]
Greg: Despite the wording of the comment, this is not about ARIA but about whether scripts get notified and *can* handle it correctly when element state is changed programmatically by anything other than the script itself.
18:39:05 [greg]
Jan: Correct.
18:39:13 [greg]
Kelly: I think we're okay on this.
18:40:03 [greg]
Resolution: No change. The general requirement is still true. Scripts need to be notified by the browser when element state is changed, including changed programmatically.
18:40:18 [greg]
Topic: OCAD43 re 3.4.1
18:40:31 [greg]
3.4.1 Avoid unpredictable focus: The user can prevent focus changes that are not a result of explicit user request. (Level A)
18:40:38 [greg]
CAD43: This seems like the superset (and so the possible replacement) of 1.8.9 and 2.1.4.
18:40:47 [greg]
s/CAD43/OCAD43/
18:41:30 [greg]
1.8.9 Open on Request: The user can specify whether author content can open new top-level viewports (e.g. windows or tabs). (Level AA)
18:41:35 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:41:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:41:42 [greg]
2.1.4 Separate Selection from Activation: The user can specify that focus and selection can be moved without causing further changes in focus, selection, or the state of controls, by either the user agent or author content. (Level A)
18:42:17 [AllanJ]
agree that 3.4.1 is the more general case that includes 1.8.9 (189 should be removed) and is only about focus changes. except 189 allows configuration??
18:42:19 [AllanJ]
2.1.4 is about change in state of selection for radio buttons and checkboxes when an item receives focus. this is different than moving focus in an unpredictable manner. 2.1.4 should remain as is.
18:42:57 [greg]
Jim: Agreed 3.1.4 is a more general case that includes 1.8.9, the latter could be removed, except 1.8.9 allows configuration as well.
18:45:49 [greg]
Jim: opening a new viewport changes focus...
18:46:15 [greg]
Greg: Opening a new viewport may not change focus, based on UA configuration as well as scripted behaviors.
18:48:46 [greg]
Jan: 3.4.1 is alone in 3.4 which is about predictable behaviors. Could anything else fit there?
18:50:21 [greg]
Greg: Examples of unpredictable behavior might include changing visible portion when window resized, random tab order when not specified by author, allowing scripts to close windows or tabs, etc.
18:50:43 [greg]
Kim: Tons of examples in the Implementing document. Most along the Perceivable lines.
18:50:58 [greg]
s/examples in/examples for 3.4.1 in/
18:53:47 [greg]
Jan: 1.8.9 and 2.1.4 are separate enough that they deserves to live.
18:54:14 [greg]
Kim: Each is necessary in its context, fitting in and contributing to the SC around them.
18:54:59 [AllanJ]
leaving these alone seems fine to me.
18:55:22 [AllanJ]
does no harm currently.
18:55:33 [greg]
Greg: We could leave it for now; if Jan finds a better way to combine or reorganize later he can submit that, but it seems we could move on for now.
18:56:02 [greg]
Jan: Goal is to streamline and shorten the document, and prevent readers from being turned off by perceived repetition.
18:56:48 [greg]
Kelly: two questions: does experience say this will be a problem, and what's the cost of message around with it at this point.
18:57:24 [greg]
Jan: if we felt 3.4.1 was completely covered by 2.1.4, we could safely remove it and not lose anything, combine the examples, etc.
18:58:13 [greg]
Kim: That would be better, taking out the one that has no context would be better than taking out either of the two others.
18:59:00 [greg]
Jeanne: Think these need to stay so that we don't lose the whole "unpredictable" part.
20:02:16 [Kim]
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20:09:32 [greg]
Resolution: Keep 3.4.1, 2.1.4, and 1.8.9 as are for now; Jan may come back with proposal later.
20:10:03 [greg]
Topic: OCAD39 re 2.11.8
20:10:25 [greg]
2.11.8 Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media: During time-based media playback, the user can determine which tracks are available and select or deselect tracks, overriding global default settings, such as captions or audio descriptions. (Level AA)
20:10:33 [greg]
OCAD39: Both the examples in the implementing document are taken care of by something in GL1.1? So perhaps this can be removed.
20:12:15 [Jan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0039.html
20:13:11 [greg]
Jim: 2.11.8 is covered by 1.1.1 and is an implementation detail. remove 2.11.8 add example to 1.1.1 Betty, has an auditory processing problem. she is watching a movie that has several caption and audio tracks . She pulls up a menu to determine which is available she switches between audio tracks until she find one she can understand. She also reinforces the audio by selecting a caption track.
20:13:45 [Jan]
1.1.1 Render Alternative Content: The user can choose to render any type of recognized alternative content that are present for a content element. (Level A)
20:14:20 [greg]
1.1.1 Render Alternative Content: The user can choose to render any type of recognized alternative content that are present for a content element. (Level A)
20:15:19 [greg]
Greg: They are not the same as 1.1.1 is about all forms of tracks, whereas 2.11.8 is just alternative content.
20:15:47 [greg]
Greg: Neither is a subset of the other.
20:16:29 [greg]
Jan: Our media player handles enabling/disabling alternative content tracks, but not other tracks, so would it fail?
20:16:35 [greg]
s/would/should/
20:17:34 [greg]
Greg: A use case a is if a video had a dialog track and a music track, for example, a person with impaired hearding or cognition may need to disable the background noises in order to understand the speech.
20:18:27 [greg]
Jan: Our tool should never be able to meet AA compliance then?
20:19:44 [greg]
Greg: We're saying that right now such a tool meets A but not AA because it doesn't let the user choose to disable arbitrary tracks.
20:21:26 [greg]
Greg: Another use case is my former coworker who had seizures triggered by low-level sounds such as white noise, and so had to turn off any audio that included fountains, surf, and the like.
20:24:18 [greg]
Jan: 2.11.8 is semi-redundant to 1.5.1 Global Volume, which lets the user turn down (off) audio tracks. However, it doesn't handle differenent video tracks.
20:25:04 [greg]
Jan interprets the SC as about alternative content, whereas Greg interpreted it as being about tracks in general. Greg emphasized "tracks", while Jan emphaized "such as captions and audio description".
20:25:19 [greg]
s/emphaized/emphasized/
20:26:33 [greg]
Jan: Greg's two use cases would be covered by 1.5.1.
20:26:56 [Jan]
Jan: Any concerns about audio track levels is handled by 1.5.1 Global Volume: The user can adjust the volume of each audio tracksindependently of other tracks, relative to the global volume level set through operating environment mechanisms. (Level A)
20:31:49 [AllanJ]
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20:32:22 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to move examples from 2.11.8 to 1.1.1 and remove 2.11.8
20:32:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-871 - Move examples from 2.11.8 to 1.1.1 and remove 2.11.8 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-03].
20:32:36 [greg]
Decided that we don't need 2.11.8's ability to disable video tracks, because the only important use cases we come up with involve alternative media, which are covered by 1.1.1.
20:33:46 [greg]
The important use cases regarding non-alternative audio tracks are covered by 1.5.1.
20:34:35 [greg]
Resolution: Delete 2.11.8 and move its examples and intent to 1.1.1.
20:35:30 [greg]
Resolution: Add to 1.5.1 Examples the use case above about a person who has seizures triggered by low-level sounds such as white noise, and so has to turn off any audio that included fountains, surf, and the like.
20:37:05 [AllanJ]
example: Betty, has an auditory processing problem. she is watching a movie that has several caption and audio tracks . She pulls up a menu to determine which is available she switches between audio tracks until she find one she n
20:37:07 [AllanJ]
understand. She also reinforces the audio by selecting a caption track.
20:37:42 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:37:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html jeanne
20:38:55 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to add Betty example from Jim's email of 27 August 2013 to 1.1.1
20:38:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-872 - Add betty example from jim's email of 27 august 2013 to 1.1.1 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-03].
20:39:29 [greg]
Topic: OCAD34 and OCAD35, re 2.10.1 and 2.10.2
20:40:13 [greg]
2.10.1 Three Flashes or Below Threshold: In its default configuration, the user agent does not display any user interface components or recognized content that flashes more than three times in any one-second period, unless the flash is below the general flash and red flash thresholds. (Level A)
20:40:25 [greg]
2.10.2 Three Flashes: In its default configuration, the user agent does not display any user interface components or recognized content that flashes more than three times in any one-second period (regardless of whether not the flash is below the general flash and red flash thresholds). (Level AAA)
20:40:46 [greg]
OCAD34: (Re 2.10.1) This is good for the User Agent UI, but hard to automatically determine in playing content. Perhaps 2.11.1 handles this?
20:40:59 [greg]
OCAD35: (Re 2.10.2) Could this also then be removed? (related to comment OCAD34)
20:43:31 [AllanJ]
jim's proposal: remove 2.10.1 and promote 2.10.2 to A (UI should not be doing this anyway, no browser does this so easy check), and change wording of 2.10.2 to : 2.10.2 Three Flashes: In its default configuration, the user agent does not display any user interface components that flashes more than three times in any one-second period (regardless of whether not the flash is below the general...
20:43:33 [AllanJ]
...flash and red flash thresholds). (Level A) [removed 'or recognized content' and changed level from AAA to A]
20:43:34 [AllanJ]
or keep 2.10.2 at AAA but still change wording. and keep 2.10.1 but change wording to
20:43:36 [AllanJ]
2.10.1 Three Flashes or Below Threshold:In its default configuration, the user agent does not display any user interface components that flashes more than three times in any one-second period, unless the flash is below general flash and red flash thresholds. (Level A) [removed "or recognized content"]
20:46:20 [greg]
Greg: I'd just cut out the "or rendered content" from both.
20:47:15 [greg]
Jan: A person who needs to avoid flashing already has the ability to avoid videos until they approve them.
20:47:50 [greg]
Resolution: remove "or rendered content" from 2.10.1 and 2.10.2.
20:48:09 [greg]
s/rendered/recognized/
20:48:19 [jeanne]
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20:48:19 [RRSAgent]
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20:48:32 [greg]
Topic: OCAD33 re 2.9.2
20:48:47 [greg]
2.9.2 Retrieval Progress: By default, the user agent shows the progress of content retrieval. (Level A)
20:48:53 [greg]
OCAD33: I think this is in the wrong GL, it doesn't allow time-independent interaction
20:50:22 [Kim]
addition to intent of 2.10.1 and 2.10.2:
20:50:23 [Kim]
It's recommended that this also be applied to recognized content.
20:51:41 [AllanJ]
jim's comment -
20:51:43 [AllanJ]
Agree, this is not about time independence. the download monitor is informing the user of what is happening. seems better in Understandable (GL4).
20:51:44 [AllanJ]
however,
20:51:46 [AllanJ]
Every browser does this. informing the user about downloading status is basic usability; as long as the download monitor is programatically accessible and its messaging is accessible as per our other guidelines. Proposal Delete it.
20:52:27 [greg]
Greg: Some browsers (e.g. Blackberry browser) don't tell you how much is being downloaded, just that *something* is being downloaded.
20:53:18 [greg]
Kelly: Recommend deleting this SC.
20:54:42 [greg]
Kim: For some people with disabilities its much more difficult if they have to start over. especially if they thought it was necessary when it wasn't.
20:55:28 [greg]
Kim: I've watched users go around and around and around trying it over and over again, which can use up their entire day's maximum amount of typing.
20:57:27 [greg]
Kelly: The examples included don't make a sufficient case for differential benefit for people with disabilities.
20:59:47 [greg]
Jim: The original comment was that this was in the wrong SC, but couldn't find a good place for it under Perceivable.
21:00:39 [greg]
Kelly: Willing to keep it if we move it and give it a more compelling example.
21:02:52 [jeanne]
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21:02:52 [RRSAgent]
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21:03:01 [greg]
Greg: I think it's important to clarify what this requires: does it mean percent complete, or it it enough to distinguish between "done" and "not yet done"?
21:03:52 [greg]
Kelly: Another reason for keeping it is that one often has a limited number of times you can ask for help.
21:05:40 [greg]
Jan: LIke the idea of phrasing it as "state of content retrieval activity", rather than "progress of content retrieval".
21:05:49 [greg]
s/LIke/Like/
21:07:30 [greg]
Greg: Should this also be about processing/rendering, as opposed to just about downloading? For example if the knows the page is still being rendered and so is still running and not yet ready to accept input, should the user be told?
21:07:51 [greg]
Jim: Propose keep the SC but move to 3.2, and add a new example that Kim will write.
21:08:08 [greg]
Resolution: Propose keep the SC but move to 3.2, and add a new example that Kim will write.
21:08:18 [greg]
s/Propose keep/Keep/
21:08:32 [greg]
s/the SC/SC 2.9.2/
21:08:49 [greg]
Topic: OCAD31 re 2.8.1
21:09:45 [AllanJ]
jim's comment: proposal. leave it. it was many SC, they were combined because they all interrelated and built upon each other.
21:09:45 [greg]
2.8.1 Customize display of controls representing user interface commands, functions, and extensions: The user can customize which user agent commands, functions, and extensions are displayed within the user agent's user interface as follows:(Level AA) (a) Show: The user can choose to display any controls available within the user agent user interface, including user-installed extensions. It...
21:09:47 [greg]
...is acceptable to limit the total number of controls that are displayed onscreen. (b) Simplify: The user can simplify the default user interface by choosing to display only commands essential for basic operation (e.g. by hiding some control). (c) Reposition: The user can choose to reposition individual controls within containers (e.g. Toolbars or tool palettes), as well as reposition the...
21:09:48 [greg]
...containers themselves to facilitate physical access (e.g. To minimize hand travel on touch screens, or to facilitate preferred hand access on handheld mobile devices). (d) Assign Activation Keystrokes or Gestures: The user can choose to view, assign or change default keystrokes or gestures used to activate controls. (e) Reset: The user has the option to reset the containers and controls...
21:09:50 [greg]
...to their original configuration.
21:09:58 [greg]
OCAD31: This SC is probably twice as long as the next biggest. Has a different feel.
21:10:17 [AllanJ]
jim's comment: proposal. leave it. it was many SC, they were combined because they all interrelated and built upon each other.
21:11:48 [greg]
Jan: Okay with that.
21:11:59 [Kim]
Extra example for 2.9.2 which is going to be moved to 3.2 Larry has severe repetitive strain injuries and is limited to typing for only a short period of time every day. He downloads a long document, and is surprised to see that the download is progressing slowly. He periodically checks the progress bar rather having to type to repeatedly check to see if it's done.
21:12:41 [greg]
Jan: Recognize it would be a lot of work to split 2.8.1 back into multiple SC, along with their Examples, etc.
21:13:45 [greg]
Jan: Odd to use "GUI" in the Guideline's title.
21:14:06 [greg]
Jeanne: Will change that to "graphical" controls.
21:14:07 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to go through the guidelines and remove any period at the end of a guideline.
21:14:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-873 - Go through the guidelines and remove any period at the end of a guideline. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-03].
21:30:11 [greg]
(The group worked on and incorporated Kim's new example for showing status of retrieval progress.)
21:31:28 [greg]
Topic: OCAD27 re 2.6.1 Access to input methods
21:31:56 [greg]
2.6.1 Access to input methods: The user can discover recognized input methods explicitly associated with an element, and activate those methods in a modality independent manner. (Level AA)
21:32:04 [greg]
OCAD27: User can discover?
21:32:36 [AllanJ]
jim's proposal: 2.6.1 Access to input methods: The user can have presented any recognized input methods explicitly associated with an element, and activate those methods in a modality independent manner.
21:34:28 [greg]
Kim: "the user can have presented" is ambiguous language, as it could be misread as "the user can have (themselves) presented" as opposed to "the user can have presented (to them)".
21:36:04 [greg]
Greg: "The user can determine which input methods" or "The user can identify the input methods"?
21:39:06 [greg]
Kelly: Can't say "the user can" as the UA doesn't know what the user is and is not capable of perceiving. The SC can't test the user.
21:40:55 [Kim]
The user agent provides a means for the user to determine recognized input methods explicitly associated with an element, and a means for the user to activate those methods in a modality independent manner.
21:40:59 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:40:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html jeanne
21:42:57 [greg]
Resolution: Change 2.6.1 to read "The user agent provides a means for the user to determine recognized input methods explicitly associated with an element, and a means for the user to activate those methods in a modality independent manner."
21:45:44 [greg]
Topic: OCAD26 re 2.5.3
21:45:55 [greg]
2.5.3 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation: The user can configure sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. (Level AAA)
21:46:06 [greg]
OCAD26: "configure sets of" implies ability to create multiple sets
21:47:08 [AllanJ]
jim's comment: this is level AAA, I know of no UA that does this. Suspect it will be eliminated because of lack of implementation.
21:47:09 [AllanJ]
Proposal: reword (make it singular)
21:47:11 [AllanJ]
2.5.3 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation: The user can configure a set of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view.
21:49:33 [greg]
Resolution: Change 2.5.3 to read "2.5.3 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation: The user can configure a set of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. (AAA)"
21:50:45 [greg]
Topic: OCAD25 re 2.5.2
21:50:58 [jeanne]
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21:50:58 [RRSAgent]
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21:51:00 [greg]
2.5.3 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation: The user can configure sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. (Level AAA)
21:51:09 [greg]
2.5.2 Navigate by structural element: The user agent provides at least the following types of structural navigation, where the structure types exist:(Level AA) (a) by heading (b) within tables
21:51:17 [greg]
OCAD25: How is this related to 1.10.1?
21:52:06 [AllanJ]
jim's comment: proposal: remove reference for 2.5.2 in Related resources for 1.10.1
21:53:52 [greg]
Resolution: from "2.5.1 Location in Hierarchy" from 1.10.1 Related Resources.
21:54:00 [greg]
s/from/Remove from/
21:56:20 [greg]
Topic: OCAD24 re 1.10.2
21:57:08 [greg]
Jan: This reference wasn't actually in 1.10.2 any more, so this is moot.
21:57:25 [greg]
Jim: But also propose deleting 1.10.2.
21:57:45 [greg]
2.5.2 Navigate by structural element: The user agent provides at least the following types of structural navigation, where the structure types exist:(Level AA) (a) by heading (b) within tables
21:57:47 [Jan]
1.10.2 Access to Element Hierarchy: The user can determine the path of element nodes going from the root element of the element hierarchy to the currently focused or selected element. (Level AAA)
21:58:20 [greg]
Starting over...
21:58:28 [Jan]
2.5.1 Location in Hierarchy: When the user agent is presenting hierarchical information, but the hierarchy is not reflected in a standardized fashion in the DOM or platform accessibility services, the user can view the path of nodes leading from the root of the hierarchy to a specified element. (Level AA)
21:58:29 [greg]
1.10.2 Access to Element Hierarchy: The user can determine the path of element nodes going from the root element of the element hierarchy to the currently focused or selected element. (Level AAA)
21:58:47 [greg]
The question is, are these redundant to each other?
22:00:15 [greg]
Greg: I thought the distinction was that one was about hierarchy of nodes in the DOM, the other was about hierarchy of information NOT in the DOM such as artists, albums, etc. in a media library.
22:00:50 [greg]
2.5.1 is iTunes Library (for example), 1.10.2 is the DOM.
22:01:29 [greg]
Agreement that they read confusingly similarly.
22:04:32 [greg]
Greg: I believe this was originally Simon's SC.
22:12:40 [greg]
Greg: I would not object to deleting 2.5.1, as it's only AAA.
22:15:08 [greg]
Jim: The comment was that they seemed to be the same, but discussion reveals they are very different. The question of whether 2.5.1 should stay, or be reworded, or deleted, is an open issue.
22:15:09 [greg]
Jan: If we as a group had trouble understanding it, it is potentially a problem.
22:15:44 [greg]
Jan: the original OCAD comment was very minor, only about a problem in the IER.
22:17:56 [Jan]
Action: Jan to look at 2.5.1 Location in Hierarchy including possibly to check in with Simon.
22:17:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-874 - Look at 2.5.1 location in hierarchy including possibly to check in with simon. [on Jan Richards - due 2013-09-03].
22:18:37 [greg]
Resolution: closed comment OCAD24, accepted.
22:18:48 [greg]
Topic: OCAD22 re 2.3.5
22:19:15 [greg]
2.3.5 Customize Keyboard Commands: The user can override any keyboard shortcut including recognized author supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user agent user interface controls, except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within menus). The rebinding options must include single-key and key-plus-modifier keys if available in the...
22:19:16 [greg]
...operating environment. The user must be able to save these settings beyond the current session. (Level AA)
22:19:18 [greg]
OCAD22: Save requirement should be removed as it is covered by 2.7.1. Also the single-key and key-plus-modifier text seems like overkill.
22:20:00 [AllanJ]
jim's comment: proposal: eliminate last sentence it is covered by 2.7.1. remove the sentence related to key-plus-modifier. That is covered by overriding accesskey which is a key plus modifier.
22:21:15 [greg]
Greg: I don't think it's obvious to a developer that 2.7.1 would cover this, but if we add to 2.7.1 a list of potentially overlooked implications such as this, then I'd be okay deleting this sentence.
22:21:58 [greg]
Kelly: Concern that if the user needs to be able to rebind the "D" key, it can make normal functionality unusable.
22:22:33 [greg]
Kim: Need to redo it, as if you're doing speech recognition and every key is interpreted as a long series of commands, it's a real problem.
22:23:15 [jeanne]
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22:23:15 [RRSAgent]
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22:24:20 [greg]
Jan: It doesn't say it has to allow rebinding of letter keys.
22:24:29 [greg]
Kelly: It doesn't say otherwise.
22:25:01 [AllanJ]
discussion of gmail and recognized keybindings....but gmail keybindings are all in javascipt and the browser is unaware of the keybindings.
22:25:32 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
22:26:11 [AllanJ]
kp: there are more webapps using single key keybindings. these are a huge problem
22:26:14 [greg]
Kim: Increasing number of web apps use single letter keys as command, and that's a problem.
22:26:22 [AllanJ]
scribe: greg
22:27:36 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
22:28:07 [AllanJ]
jim describes gmail (single keys turned on) and google chat conflicting.
22:28:51 [AllanJ]
greg: modal commands that are context sensitive are a problem
22:29:14 [AllanJ]
kp: single letter commands are becoming a nightmare
22:29:53 [AllanJ]
srcibe: gret
22:29:59 [AllanJ]
scribe: greg
22:30:15 [greg]
Kim: Would be fine narrowing to being able to change shortcuts, but avoid requiring the user be able to rebind letter keys.
22:30:56 [greg]
Discussion of conflicts between webapp key commands and those of the user agent.
22:32:30 [greg]
Kim: In favor of being able to redefine keys that are used for commands, but not letters and so forth that aren't used for commands.
22:34:06 [greg]
Kelly: Kim wants the user to have control over whether keypress is handled by the UA or a script, but this doesn't really address that.
22:34:36 [AllanJ]
briefly discussed the previous SC related to the browser serving itself first (keybindings) before javascript. currently all browsers let javascript have the keybindings first then anything not trapped is passed to the browser.
22:35:55 [AllanJ]
this was removed as it was never going to be implemented.
22:36:30 [greg]
Jan: Browsers reserve some command keys, correct?
22:36:45 [greg]
Kelly: IE reserved Alt+D; cannot be used as accesskey.
22:37:57 [greg]
Jan: The UA always grabs the keys first, regardless of whether they're reserved or passed on to the script first.
22:42:31 [AllanJ]
proposal: 2.3.5 Customize Keyboard Commands: The user can override any keyboard shortcut including recognized author supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user agent user interface controls, except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within menus). The user must be able to save these settings beyond the current session. (Level AA)
22:44:12 [AllanJ]
perhaps remove the last sentence also, and add a statement about saving in the intent.
22:44:31 [AllanJ]
proposal: 2.3.5 Customize Keyboard Commands: The user can override any keyboard shortcut including recognized author supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user agent user interface controls, except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within menus). (Level AA)
22:44:59 [greg]
Kim, Jan and Greg agree on removing the Save from the SC and instead noting it in the IER.
22:46:28 [AllanJ]
add to the intent "the user should be able to save these settings beyond the current session"
22:52:02 [Kim]
The user should be able to save, import and export these settings.
22:52:20 [AllanJ]
add to related resources: GL 2.7
22:52:51 [AllanJ]
proposal proposal: 2.3.5 Customize Keyboard Commands: The user can remap any keyboard shortcut including recognized author supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user agent user interface controls, except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within menus). (Level AA)
23:06:55 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
23:08:35 [kford]
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23:08:35 [RRSAgent]
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23:10:49 [greg]
Greg: I don't like the idea that UA could allow remapping only to a very limited set of inputs, such as Ctrl plus a single letter (which is a real-world case), but I'm not going to fight about it.
23:11:27 [AllanJ]
opera allows remaping, firefox does with extension
23:12:09 [AllanJ]
opera only allows remaping of accesskeys, but not its own controls
23:12:43 [greg]
Jan: We may have difficulty finding implementations that let one remap *all* keyboard commands.
23:13:58 [greg]
Resolution: Accept wording 2.3.5 Customize Keyboard Commands: The user can remap any keyboard shortcut including recognized author supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user agent user interface controls, except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within menus). (Level AA)
23:14:56 [kford]
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23:14:56 [RRSAgent]
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23:15:19 [greg]
Topic: OCAD16 re 2.1.4
23:15:55 [greg]
2.1.4 Separate Selection from Activation: The user can specify that focus and selection can be moved without causing further changes in focus, selection, or the state of controls, by either the user agent or author content. (Level A)
23:16:05 [greg]
OCAD16: Does "author content" need a definition? Sometimes also says "author supplied"
23:17:40 [AllanJ]
proposal: 2.1.4 Separate Selection from Activation: The user can specify that focus and selection can be moved without causing further changes in focus, selection, or the state of controls, by either the user agent or author supplied content. (Level A)
23:18:07 [greg]
Jim: That is, change "author content" to "author supplied content".
23:19:36 [jeanne]
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23:19:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html jeanne
23:20:03 [greg]
kford: Looked into it, determined it's at odds with how radio buttons have worked for a long time in Windows. May be tough to get implementations.
23:22:25 [greg]
Jan: What about scripted controls that move focus?
23:22:56 [greg]
Greg: They're not relevant, as this is only about recognized controls, e.g. standard HTML controls in web pages.
23:23:01 [greg]
Jan: Okay.
23:23:31 [greg]
Resolution: Accept wording 2.1.4 Separate Selection from Activation: The user can specify that focus and selection can be moved without causing further changes in focus, selection, or the state of controls, by either the user agent or author supplied content. (Level A)
23:24:21 [greg]
s/author supplied/author-supplied/
23:25:18 [greg]
Topic: OCAD15 re 2.1.2
23:25:42 [greg]
2.1.2 Keyboard Focus: Every viewport has an active or inactive keyboard focus at all times. (Level A)
23:25:49 [greg]
OCAD15: Is this still needed with 1.8.1 and 1.8.8?
23:26:00 [AllanJ]
jim's proposal: leave as is. 2.1.2 covers having a keyboard focus. 1.8.1 is about the highlighting the viewport that happens to contain the active keyboard focus. 1.8.8 is about the history mechanism for viewports and keyboard focus. While they are related, the SC cover separate aspects of viewport and keyboard focus accessibility.
23:26:06 [greg]
1.8.1 Highlight Viewport: The viewport with the input focus is highlighted and the user can customize attributes of the highlighting mechanism (e.g. shape, size, stroke width, color, blink rate). The viewport can include nested viewports and containers. (Level A)
23:26:19 [greg]
1.8.8 Viewport History: For user agents that implement a viewport history mechanism (e.g. "back" button), the user can return to any state in the viewport history that is allowed by the content, including a restored point of regard, input focus and selection. (Level AA)
23:27:04 [greg]
Greg: What's an example of something required by 2.1.2 that's not required by the other two?
23:28:13 [greg]
AllanJ: 2.1.2 requires there be a keyboard focus, the other two only require behaviors if there is one.
23:29:17 [greg]
Resolved: Keep 2.1.2, 1.8.1, and 1.8.8 as they stand.
23:34:13 [greg]
Topic: OCAD12 re 1.8.8
23:34:21 [greg]
1.8.8 Viewport History: For user agents that implement a viewport history mechanism (e.g. "back" button), the user can return to any state in the viewport history that is allowed by the content, including a restored point of regard, input focus and selection. (Level AA)
23:34:28 [greg]
OCAD12: I'm concerned this might be read that each viewport needs to be configurable separately? Should it say top-level viewport? Wording if we should group together top-level viewport SCs for clarity.
23:36:01 [greg]
Kim: 1.8.9 and 1.8.10 are limited to top-level viewports.
23:39:28 [greg]
Greg: It would be *nice* if you could put the focus in an iFrame and choose to back it up, just as one can with a top-level viewport, but I agree we should not require it.
23:40:39 [greg]
Kim: Should we have a comment in the IER that it would be nice to have it on non-top-level viewports?
23:42:45 [AllanJ]
1.8.8 Viewport History: For user agents that implement a history top-level viewport mechanism (e.g. "back" button), the user can return to any state in the viewport history that is allowed by the content, including a restored point of regard, input focus and selection. (Level AA)
23:42:58 [greg]
Resolution: Accept new wording 1.8.8 Viewport History: For user agents that implement a history mechanism for top-level viewports (e.g. "back" button), the user can return to any state in the viewport history that is allowed by the content, including a restored point of regard, input focus and selection. (Level AA)
23:44:34 [greg]
That is, we changed "a viewport history mechanism" to "a history mechanism for top-level viewports".
23:49:28 [greg]
Jan: While in the viewports section, want to make sure that where things should only apply to top-level viewports, that is reflected properly.
23:58:13 [Jan]
1.8.3 Resize Viewport: The user can resize viewports within the limits of the display, overriding any values specified by the author. (Level A)