14:57:34 RRSAgent has joined #html-media 14:57:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-html-media-irc 14:57:35 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:57:35 Zakim has joined #html-media 14:57:37 Zakim, this will be 63342 14:57:37 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 14:57:38 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference 14:57:38 Date: 27 August 2013 14:57:47 zakim, this will be HTML 14:57:47 ok, glenn; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 14:58:28 HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started 14:58:35 +??P5 14:58:40 zakim, ??p5 is me 14:58:40 +glenn; got it 14:58:42 +[Microsoft] 14:59:06 paulc has joined #html-media 14:59:39 pal has joined #html-media 15:00:01 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Aug/0038.html 15:00:14 joesteele has joined #html-media 15:00:26 trackbot, start meeting 15:00:28 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:00:30 Zakim, this will be 63342 15:00:30 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start now 15:00:31 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference 15:00:31 Date: 27 August 2013 15:00:37 BobLund has joined #html-media 15:00:43 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:00:43 I notice HTML_WG()11:00AM has restarted 15:00:45 On the phone I see glenn, [Microsoft] 15:00:48 +niels_thorwirth 15:00:54 zakim, [Microsoft] is me 15:00:55 +paulc; got it 15:00:58 markw has joined #html-media 15:01:10 +[Adobe] 15:01:10 davide has joined #html-media 15:01:20 Zakim, Adobe has joesteele 15:01:22 +joesteele; got it 15:01:30 +davide 15:01:50 +markw 15:01:54 Niels_VMX has joined #html-media 15:02:10 +pladd 15:02:17 JamilEllis has joined #html-media 15:02:22 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:22 On the phone I see glenn, paulc, niels_thorwirth, [Adobe], davide, markw, pladd 15:02:25 [Adobe] has joesteele 15:02:34 pladd has joined #html-media 15:03:14 +pal 15:03:23 ddorwin has joined #html-media 15:03:23 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:03:23 On the phone I see glenn, paulc, niels_thorwirth, [Adobe], davide, markw, pladd, pal 15:03:25 [Adobe] has joesteele 15:03:32 scribenick: joesteele 15:04:10 +BobLund 15:04:20 +[Microsoft] 15:04:23 zakim, [Microsoft] is me 15:04:23 +adrianba; got it 15:04:32 Chair: paulc 15:04:46 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Aug/0038.html 15:04:46 Topic: Agenda 15:05:00 +ddorwin 15:05:11 paulc: not sure where to start on the bugs 15:05:22 Zakim, who is here? 15:05:22 On the phone I see glenn, paulc, niels_thorwirth, [Adobe], davide, markw, pladd, pal, BobLund, adrianba, ddorwin 15:05:24 [Adobe] has joesteele 15:05:24 On IRC I see ddorwin, pladd, JamilEllis, Niels_VMX, davide, markw, BobLund, joesteele, pal, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, adrianba, glenn, trackbot, wseltzer 15:05:33 Topic: Heartbeat Docs 15:05:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Aug/0023.html 15:06:14 paulc: last week looked like Adrian agreed to produce the stable doc - checked with Robin and had not seen a response from EME editors 15:06:34 adrianba: said last week we would do in two weeks, can't publish this week 15:06:54 paulc: saw reference to that - was that the consensus? 15:07:09 ... were there bugs we should look at and review? 15:07:52 adrianba: conclusion was that we did not need to wait for specific bugs, but felt that with planned work we would have more up to date spec next week 15:08:04 paulc: trying to have two weeks or ready this week? 15:08:05 jdsmith has joined #html-media 15:08:09 adrianba: not sure 15:08:26 +[Microsoft] 15:08:29 paulc: moratorium this week, some docs will be published next week, e.g. MSE Last Call 15:08:44 ... not obvious that we need to do a CFC at the working group 15:08:56 ... need a stable draft to do that 15:09:02 ... out of this meeting 15:09:35 ... can the participants today look at agenda today and decide which items we want to close today 15:09:35 I'm just completing ACTION-37 now 15:12:04 joesteele: not ready on bug#17673 yet (action-25) -- apologies 15:12:27 paulc: are you suggesting action-31 is moot now? 15:12:46 ddorwin: tried to resolve a couple of weeks ago, realized we had not made a decision yet 15:12:55 ... last comment refers to that 15:13:11 paulc: any other bugs we should focus on for candidate heartbeat? 15:13:14 q+ 15:13:48 adrianba: did close ACTION-30 this morning 15:13:56 ... closing bug#20966 15:14:17 ... reason I had not done this till now was I wanted to add the privacy considerations spec 15:14:35 s/considerations spec/considerations language/ 15:14:50 q- 15:14:55 Topic: Bug#18515 15:15:02 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18515#c13 15:15:19 paulc: believe this is the comment to look at 15:15:53 adrianba: ACTION-36 on Gary and I to review the comments David had made and decide what we thought 15:16:09 ... at the point where playback locks because of a piece of encrypted media and no key is available 15:16:17 ... consensus is that playback should stall 15:16:27 ... should media state of the element actually change to reflect the stall 15:16:34 ... or should stall just be implicit? 15:16:44 ... our position is to not change the ready state 15:16:49 zakim, who's noisy? 15:16:59 ... reason is that is you are using MSE and EME together 15:17:02 glenn, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: paulc (92%), adrianba (75%) 15:17:16 ... using playback code for adaptive streaming 15:17:37 ... changing the ready state might change the playback code and trigger downloading more data 15:17:43 ... proboably not the right thing to do 15:18:56 q+ 15:18:57 q+ 15:19:00 s/proboably/probably/ 15:19:06 q+ 15:19:07 joesteele: ok 15:19:07 ack dd 15:19:23 ddorwin: still need to figure out the wording - any suggestions? 15:19:28 q- later 15:20:12 markw: proposal is that the media element could still be playing, and the fact that we are waiting for a key is represented on the key session? 15:20:21 +[Microsoft.a] 15:20:23 -paulc 15:20:34 ... isn't that strange that the media element cannot play although it indicates it can? 15:20:35 zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me 15:20:35 +paulc; got it 15:20:51 (swapping phones to avoid the air flow noise in my office) 15:21:00 adrianba: if you have a counterproposal that can handle the adaptive case, we should consider that 15:21:20 markw: need to check but let's go ahead 15:21:28 q+ to say that I'm fine not changing readyState, but any state should be reflected in HTMLMediaElement 15:21:32 q? 15:21:41 ack markw 15:21:58 adrianba: comment that we still have action-31 to define some text 15:22:06 ... does David still want to own that action? 15:22:22 paulc: so action-31 not covered by your proposal? 15:22:27 ack ad 15:22:45 adrianba: action-31 was the proposal text, our action-36 was to review the question which we have done 15:22:58 ... sounds like we have consensus on how to resolve, just need the text now 15:23:13 paulc: david, was that your point? 15:23:33 ddorwin: yes, we have mostly consensus on what to change 15:23:43 ... just not how to reflect it 15:23:51 ... should not change the media session to reflect it 15:24:01 ... maybe in the media element or not at all 15:24:02 q+ 15:24:07 ack dd 15:24:07 ddorwin, you wanted to say that I'm fine not changing readyState, but any state should be reflected in HTMLMediaElement 15:24:10 ... just have a pseudo-state like it is currently 15:24:23 ack ad 15:24:44 adrianba: I think it was clear that you would have a session in a pending state to get into this situation 15:24:58 ... but it is possible that you have a needKey but have not created the session yet 15:25:16 ... don't think I have a problem with adding something to the media element that indicates that 15:25:34 ddorwin: what would that be? event, attribute 15:25:58 adrianba: maybe an attribute, parallel to media element, like an enum 15:26:13 ... think we get events already that lead to this 15:26:22 ... may not need ot know the point at which it stalled 15:26:29 ... what would the app do with the event? 15:26:31 q+ 15:26:40 ddorwin: not sure we need to reflect it 15:27:08 ... we could add text about what the UA should do 15:27:15 ... not about what we provide to the app 15:27:26 ... not sure what the app would do 15:27:47 adrianba: could add it but not sure if it would be useful 15:28:12 ... maybe start with just being clear in the spec that you are supposed to stall waiting for the key 15:28:24 ... if we find some gaps implementing then we can look at adding it 15:28:33 ddorwin: that sounds good to me 15:28:56 ... cpoy "future data or not future data from the spec" or I can seach around 15:29:01 ack joe 15:29:59 joesteele: not worth adding until we have implementation experience or specific need 15:30:15 somewhere on this page: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html 15:30:15 paulc: can we point to that text directly? 15:30:36 paulc: section 4.8? 15:31:38 what about 4.8.10.7 "Ready states"? 15:31:48 Maybe we should fire |waiting|: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#event-media-waiting 15:31:49 for text I mean 15:32:00 There is a definition of a blocked media element: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#blocked-media-element 15:33:01 ddorwin: we are asking for existing text that could reflect when we are waiting for a key 15:33:08 ... nothing exact right now 15:33:19 ... about what "should happen" in that state 15:33:32 ... probably have to make it up 15:33:44 paulc: should we resolve now or assign to the editors? 15:34:00 ... or could leave ACTION-31 open until David can propose some text? 15:34:11 ddorwin: don't need to block the heartbeat on this one 15:34:16 ... has some existing text 15:34:37 paulc: reopened ACTION-31 at original state 15:34:47 ... David you still have this action 15:34:47 close ACTION-36 15:34:47 Closed ACTION-36. 15:35:02 ACTION-31? 15:35:02 ACTION-31 -- David Dorwin to Propose text to resolve bug 18515 -- due 2013-09-10 -- OPEN 15:35:02 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/31 15:35:36 RESOLVED: David will attend the ACTION-31 with text proposed by ACTION-36 15:35:46 s/attend the/attend to/ 15:35:54 Topic: Bug#20966 15:36:04 paulc: you closed ACTION-30? 15:36:07 ACTION-30? 15:36:07 ACTION-30 -- Adrian Bateman to Implement closing 20966 -- due 2013-08-27 -- CLOSED 15:36:07 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/30 15:36:40 paulc: referred to comment #9 that it was resolved pointing to August 6th minutes 15:36:41 See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20966#c9 15:37:02 adrianba: this bug has been around for awhile and reopened without specific information 15:37:18 ... just realized that I need to remove the note in the document about the state of this bug 15:37:44 ... bug#20965 is the main placeholder for privacy issues 15:38:07 glenn: 22909 is the generic bug I would recommend to handle this 15:38:41 paulc: if this bug depends on bug#22909 how do we resolve? 15:38:54 adrianba: looks like we have duplicate bugs 15:39:13 ... 20966 is a dup of 20965 unless there is more information 15:39:28 ... I resolved that adding the privacy condierations section later today 15:39:36 ... should resolve the other also 15:39:57 Security considerations? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22909#c1 15:39:59 paulc: if you add this security considerations section - that is from this comment 15:40:04 ... ? 15:40:21 adrianba: we have ended up with lots of bugs that say the same thing 15:40:39 ... original plan was to add this section with a placeholder 15:40:57 ... added the text from 22910 verbatim from Glenns proposal without review 15:41:01 ... needs review 15:41:14 ... bit more discussion on the security considerations 15:41:23 ... on whether the right suggestions are being made 15:41:24 Privacy considerations are proposed in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22910#c1 15:41:42 ... still recommend keeping the master bug open 15:41:56 ... from prior to FPWD 15:42:32 paulc: so 20966 is resolved as NEEDSINFO 15:42:55 ... what do we do with the dependcey on bug#22909? 15:43:05 s/dependcey/dependency/ 15:43:16 adrianba: remove it 15:43:23 ddorwin: think it is useful as a reference 15:44:03 glenn: 20966 has been closed and ir makred as dependant -- dependency can continue to exist 15:44:21 s/makred/marked. 15:44:23 s/makred/marked/ 15:45:08 paulc: adrian you were proposing to add a security section as per bug#22909 and privacy section from bug#22910 15:45:12 ... does that resolve? 15:45:17 adrianba: I believe so 15:45:20 Security section from https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22909#c2 15:45:36 Privacy section from tps://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22910#c1 15:45:49 That can resolve 22909 and 22910 leaving open 20965 15:45:52 paulc: this can resolve these bugs, leaving open 20965 15:46:01 adrianba: yes 15:46:58 paulc: so bug#20965 will remain open as the master bug 15:47:01 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20965 15:47:06 -BobLund 15:47:57 RESOLVED bug#22909, bug#22910, bug#20966 will be closed and bug#20965 will remain open 15:48:22 paulc: other candidate bug#17673 was mentioned but joe said is not done 15:48:28 ... any other items we can look at? 15:49:23 ... ACTION-35 was on me -- still need to do it 15:49:33 ... putting in heartbeat means this is slightly changed 15:49:56 ACTION-37? 15:49:56 ACTION-37 -- Mark Watson to Update wiki provided for bug 20944 to cover the case where the drm is supporting by the os -- due 2013-08-20 -- CLOSED 15:49:56 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/37 15:50:04 markw: did that this morning 15:50:16 Topic: Bug#20944 15:50:47 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20944 15:50:52 s/ tps:\/\//https:\/\// 15:51:00 What is the status with this bug given ACTION-37 is closed. 15:51:03 ACTION-37? 15:51:03 ACTION-37 -- Mark Watson to Update wiki provided for bug 20944 to cover the case where the drm is supporting by the os -- due 2013-08-20 -- CLOSED 15:51:03 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/37 15:51:20 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20944#c30 15:51:57 glenn: I can implement the change to the registry text as suggested 15:52:21 paulc: on Feb 13th we added a note to the abstract that this was an open issue 15:52:32 q+ 15:52:36 ... if we close would need to make that cascading change 15:52:44 Glenn's proposal in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20944#c15 15:52:55 ... comment #15 is where you proposed a resolution 15:53:11 ... simple registry and informative note, clearkey as the first entry 15:53:41 ... Robert Callahan said "this is not as strong as I proposed" 15:54:14 glenn: not clear what Robert is proposing - he has not written it down clearly 15:54:44 ... I referred to this in comment#22 with the draft registry text 15:54:54 ... comments since then by a number of people 15:55:10 paulc: maybe best best is to implement the changes to the wiki and the doc to refer to wiki 15:55:23 q+ 15:55:26 ... and then ask for feedback in the status section and leave the bug open 15:55:33 ack markw 15:55:34 markw: open issues 15:55:59 ... I think what Robert proposed is fairly clear 15:56:35 Mark's comment https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20944#c23 15:56:40 ... one -- we require that a key system that uses private system APIs be documented 15:56:48 Mark's suggestion is still outstanding. 15:57:03 ... second -- Roberts question is to ask why can't we do his proposal 15:57:25 ... think we should explain why this would not work (CDM implementors) 15:57:35 ack dd 15:57:44 -pladd 15:58:00 ddorwin: as far as adding to the spec, not sure whether folks would use it or that this would solve anything 15:58:05 s/private system APIs be documented/private system APIs be not allowed to be registered/ 15:58:12 ... we do have an improve interop bug already 15:58:21 s/bug already/issue already/ 15:58:37 paulc: would like to resolve the issues that Mark pointed to 15:58:54 ... any volunteers? 15:59:19 glenn: two implementors on this call (Microsoft and Adobe), maybe Cisco as well 15:59:28 joesteele: Google is also a CDM implementor 15:59:45 q+ 15:59:47 glenn: most specs require very strict NDAs to get the keys and/or implememtations 15:59:57 ack pal 16:00:22 pal: I am not sure how the W3C or any standards org can compel an implementor to publish their source code 16:00:24 @pal: the proposal is a specification, not source code 16:00:33 ... could be thirdparty source as well 16:00:49 ... don't see how this can be resolved except by making this requirement 16:00:57 @pal: and we can't compel anyone, but Robert question is to ask why we can't make it a requirement of compliance to the specification 16:01:02 paulc: will put this bug#20944 on the agenda for next time 16:01:23 pal: what information would you like to see to help the group close the bug? 16:01:38 paulc: Marks comment #23 should be either refuted or supported 16:01:58 .. and also respond to Roberts question about why we can't do what he is suggesting 16:02:02 q+ 16:02:56 ack markw 16:03:32 markw: my first suggestion seems to be non-controversial about public APIs, second suggestion about private APIs is more interesting, should we require that to be documented 16:03:34 -adrianba 16:03:57 paulc: suggesting that we continue the dialog along these lines 16:04:41 pal: Marks first suggestion is captured in comment #30 16:04:57 ... other part of the comment on private APIs - where is that captured? 16:05:01 markw: comment #23 16:05:41 pal: open comments on those two suggestions, but not sure that would satisfy the questioner 16:06:05 ... the commenter had asked for specific opinions from implementors, will bug remain open until then? 16:06:09 paulc: won't predict 16:06:15 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:06:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-html-media-minutes.html joesteele 16:06:21 Zakim, who is here? 16:06:21 On the phone I see glenn, niels_thorwirth, [Adobe], davide, markw, pal, ddorwin, [Microsoft], paulc 16:06:23 [Adobe] has joesteele 16:06:23 On IRC I see jdsmith, ddorwin, JamilEllis, Niels_VMX, davide, markw, joesteele, pal, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, adrianba, glenn, trackbot, wseltzer 16:06:43 paulc: adrian do you have clear instructions on what to do? 16:06:53 ... assume he does 16:07:11 ... past time but we will continue to propose we meet until we have closed more bugs 16:07:24 -pal 16:07:26 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:07:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-html-media-minutes.html joesteele 16:07:28 -davide 16:07:31 -[Microsoft] 16:07:32 -glenn 16:07:33 -[Adobe] 16:07:36 -niels_thorwirth 16:07:37 @pal: it may not be obvious to people why the drm specifications are covered by NDAs etc. when a more common approach to security is to publish algorithms (NIST etc.). If noone can explain why that approach shouldn't apply to DRM too, why not publish is ? 16:07:41 -markw 16:07:49 -ddorwin 16:07:50 -paulc 16:07:51 HTML_WG()11:00AM has ended 16:07:51 Attendees were glenn, niels_thorwirth, paulc, joesteele, davide, markw, pladd, pal, BobLund, adrianba, ddorwin, [Microsoft] 16:07:58 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:07:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-html-media-minutes.html joesteele 16:08:49 s/what about/joesteele\: what about/ 16:08:52 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:08:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-html-media-minutes.html joesteele 16:09:20 s/RESOLVED/RESOLUTION/ 16:09:23 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:09:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-html-media-minutes.html joesteele 16:10:06 s/from tps/from https/ 16:10:07 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:10:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-html-media-minutes.html joesteele 16:10:36 s/s\/makred\/marked\/// 16:10:37 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:10:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-html-media-minutes.html joesteele 16:11:19 s/implememtations/implementations/ 16:11:20 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:11:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-html-media-minutes.html joesteele 16:13:27 Zakim, bye 16:13:27 Zakim has left #html-media 16:13:39 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:13:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-html-media-minutes.html joesteele 16:13:44 rrsagent, bye 16:13:44 I see no action items