IRC log of svg on 2013-08-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:30:38 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM scheduled to start now
20:30:43 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:30:43 [trackbot]
Date: 22 August 2013
20:31:18 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM has now started
20:31:25 [Zakim]
20:31:57 [ed]
Zakim: +jimsch is me
20:32:14 [Zakim]
20:32:29 [Zakim]
20:32:35 [krit1]
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20:34:28 [birtles]
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20:34:44 [birtles]
Zakim: [IP is me
20:34:48 [ed]
Zakim, jimsch is really ed
20:34:48 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:34:57 [birtles]
Zakim, [IP is me
20:34:57 [Zakim]
sorry, birtles, I do not recognize a party named '[IP'
20:35:30 [birtles]
Zakim, who is on the call?
20:35:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ed, [IPcaller], krit, Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller.a]
20:35:36 [heycam]
20:35:40 [birtles]
Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
20:35:40 [Zakim]
+birtles; got it
20:35:45 [heycam]
20:35:49 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
20:35:51 [heycam]
Regrets: Chris
20:36:18 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
20:36:18 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:37:26 [ed]
scribeNick: ed
20:37:48 [ed]
topic: Review of comments on css3-fonts
20:37:58 [heycam]
20:38:13 [ed]
CM: csswg had requested our comments on css3 fonts, due today
20:38:35 [ed]
... put together chris and my comments on that wikipage
20:38:52 [Zakim]
20:38:59 [ed]
... first, have tests for features, and to convert them to svg tests
20:39:33 [ed]
... second, svg in opentype, selecting colors from the font or from outside, just to keep this in mind for next level of spec
20:39:42 [ed]
... the rest seems good to me
20:39:58 [Zakim]
20:40:00 [Zakim]
20:40:07 [ed]
krit1, BB: sounds good
20:40:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
20:40:19 [ThomasSmailus]
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20:40:20 [ed]
CM: ok, if everyone is happy then I'll send our comments
20:40:43 [Tav]
zakim, +?? is me
20:40:43 [Zakim]
sorry, Tav, I do not recognize a party named '+??'
20:40:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.373.aaaa
20:41:07 [ed]
topic: css3 cascade review
20:41:09 [Tav]
zakim, ?? is me
20:41:09 [Zakim]
+Tav; got it
20:41:22 [ed]
krit1: no incompat to svg spec
20:42:08 [ed]
... scoped styles introduced in html5, and css defines how they interact with cascades... would be nice to add to svg moving forward
20:42:24 [ed]
... but no specific comments on css3 cascade spec from the svg POV
20:42:27 [Zakim]
20:42:42 [ed]
CM: will you send a mail to www-style say that we're happy with it?
20:42:42 [Zakim]
20:42:47 [ed]
krit1: sure
20:43:14 [ed]
topic: Animation of CSS Filter Functions with url() function
20:43:32 [ed]
krit1: just added filter functions, can interpolate as long as the types match
20:44:02 [ed]
... shorter list can be interpolated with longer lists by appending to the end of the shorter list
20:44:21 [ed]
... question is: can we tolerate a url but interpolate things around the url()?
20:45:26 [ed]
... <explanation about time jumping and interpolation (missed) >
20:45:41 [ed]
CM: follow same rules as ...?
20:46:01 [ed]
krit1: similar to transforms interpolation, falls back to full interpolation of matrices
20:46:12 [ed]
... but something like that isn't possible with filter functions
20:46:28 [ed]
... some have just length values which are easy to interpolate
20:46:54 [ed]
CM: we might get the same problem with marker patterns too, interpolating between url and some values
20:47:11 [ed]
krit1: yes, it would be the same problem
20:47:32 [ed]
CM: with SMIL, does it switch half-way through?
20:47:47 [ed]
krit1: you have a timing function, f(t)
20:47:59 [ed]
... the function defines if you should jump or not
20:48:10 [Zakim]
20:48:12 [ed]
BB: once you swithc to discrete you ignore
20:48:19 [ed]
... any keysplines
20:48:31 [ed]
CM: if you have calcmode something else, can you interpolate?
20:49:02 [ed]
... are we the same as CSS animation?
20:49:08 [ed]
krit1: SMIL animation is different
20:49:17 [ed]
BB: the models are compatible
20:49:35 [ed]
krit1: both can be done with the same timing model
20:49:50 [Zakim]
20:50:03 [ed]
BB: in svg the output doesn't take keysplines into acconut in discrete mode, but in css it does
20:50:23 [ed]
krit1: we have a resoltuon in the csswg about this, but it hasn't been included in the specs yet
20:50:37 [ed]
... for properties that have enums
20:50:49 [ed]
CM: in the future the spec will say it does the switching?
20:50:55 [ed]
krit1: yes
20:51:15 [ed]
CM: in that case it should be fine to let filters behave like that too
20:51:43 [ed]
CM: can you interpolate between a longer and a short list if they have the same types?
20:51:46 [ed]
krit1: yes
20:51:59 [ed]
... it's specified how that should work
20:52:09 [ed]
CM: ok, happy with that then
20:52:15 [ed]
krit1: what do others think?
20:52:22 [ed]
DS: sounds fine
20:53:20 [ed]
RESOLUTION: url on filter property can be interpolated with discrete animations
20:53:46 [ed]
topic: SMIL animations on CSS filter property and filter functions
20:54:11 [ed]
krit1: when you look at svg, we had similar bugreports in mozilla
20:54:16 [birtles]
20:54:33 [birtles]
20:54:34 [ed]
... if we look 19.17
20:54:39 [krit1]
20:55:08 [krit1]
20:55:11 [ed]
... sorry, 19.2.17
20:55:25 [ed]
... there you have the datatypes that can be animated
20:55:33 [ed]
... we don't have filter functons there
20:55:50 [ed]
... SMIL animations can interpolate same as css animations
20:56:12 [ed]
CM: as david baron suggested, filter spec should say how to interpolate
20:56:28 [ed]
... not sure what to say in svg spec itself
20:56:44 [ed]
... will work how that should look
20:57:08 [ed]
krit1: just reference the filter effects (how they can be animated)
20:57:26 [ed]
CM: we wouldn't have to refer to filters from svg
20:57:43 [ed]
krit1: but you have to find all specs to find the animatable types
20:58:02 [ed]
CM: but then you have to update two specs and keep them in sync
20:58:22 [ed]
DS: question, about timelines, brian you'd be the one to put new animations in svg?
20:58:41 [ed]
... do you feel like it's an svg2 thing, or an svg3? or a module?
20:58:56 [ed]
BB: prefer a module, don't want to hold up the svg2 spe
20:59:41 [ed]
DS: what kind of timeframe do you have for mapping the svg animations to the new animation model?
20:59:46 [ed]
BB: within the next year
21:00:05 [ed]
DS: would be good to have something to review, in parallell with svg2 being finalized
21:00:21 [ed]
... just to let ppl know that declarative animations aren't dead
21:00:46 [ed]
... we've talked about letting svg2 be the core spec, and letting svg2.1 be the svg spec + some modules
21:01:03 [ed]
... animations might fit in there pretty well, your timeframe seems reasonable
21:01:30 [ed]
tav: how are you supposed to animate a 'width' in the future?
21:01:45 [ed]
BB: the proposal is to promote that to a property, and to animate that
21:02:02 [ed]
... focused on properties
21:02:19 [ed]
... so try to promote most things to properties, where it makes sense
21:03:13 [ed]
krit1: the table with types, should I add that to the filter spec?
21:03:21 [ed]
CM: yes, seems reasonable
21:03:25 [heycam]
21:03:54 [ed]
ACTION: krit to add filter function data type for declarative animations (to the filter effects spec)
21:03:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3519 - Add filter function data type for declarative animations (to the filter effects spec) [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-08-29].
21:04:24 [ed]
krit1: are filter functions additive? and can they be paced animations?
21:04:38 [ed]
Tav: don't understand the second one
21:04:59 [ed]
CM: intrinsic notion of ... between values, constant velocity
21:05:11 [ed]
... or speed
21:05:21 [ed]
krit1: would be a timing function, think it's keypoints, but not sure
21:05:33 [ed]
CM: yeah, duistance between the values
21:06:06 [ed]
BB: not sure theres a disctance between filter values, if there's not then there's no reason to do paced
21:06:24 [ed]
krit1: length and ... can both be paced
21:06:32 [ed]
CM: if you have the same types then yes
21:07:06 [ed]
... apart from transforms, color aslo has interesting distance type
21:07:07 [heycam]
21:07:25 [ed]
... there are the definitions for hte diff data types
21:07:34 [ed]
... that DOH wanted
21:07:49 [ed]
DS: did we ever anticipate animating between not having a filter to having a filter?
21:07:52 [birtles]
s/CM: if you have/BB: if you have/
21:08:13 [ed]
CM: think that was covered with animating between 'none' and some other values, and dirk said it would work
21:08:31 [ed]
DS: does it only work fro url filters, or jst shorthand filters?
21:08:36 [ed]
krit1: just shorthands
21:09:43 [ed]
DS: animating between my own drop shadow and my own blur, and transitions from regular HSL to sepia
21:10:03 [ed]
krit1: not really possible, unless you have custom filters, with custom variables that you can animate
21:10:11 [ed]
... svg parameters might let you do that too
21:10:40 [ed]
DS: got distracted when svg params seemed similar to css variables
21:11:00 [ed]
... if we want to do something with svgparams we should go back and look at use-cases
21:11:14 [ed]
krit1: ok, but it's a different discussion
21:11:36 [ed]
BB: back to additive and paced, makes sense to be both
21:12:06 [ed]
CM: when it makes sense to be additive, would it add or multply?
21:12:14 [ed]
krit1: you'd look at the distance functions
21:12:25 [ed]
... you'd look at the two filter functions
21:12:43 [ed]
CM: right, but for adding, it's smetimes different how things are additive
21:13:13 [ed]
... like scale and translate, postmultiply and add
21:13:38 [ed]
... so maybe we should look at where it makes sense to do what and in which contexts, for filter functions
21:13:53 [ed]
krit1: maybe, I have no idea what would make sense here
21:14:19 [ed]
CM: having animations for filters is similar to transforms where you want to concatenate two lists, for additive
21:14:37 [ed]
BB: hmm, yeah, might make sense
21:14:54 [ed]
CM: what's the diff between paced and additive?
21:15:01 [ed]
krit1: the distance function
21:15:14 [ed]
CM: don't think additive needs the distanec function
21:15:19 [ed]
... don't think that's necessary
21:15:35 [ed]
BB: yeah, distance is only used when doing paced animation
21:15:55 [ed]
krit1: not sure how ... could look like
21:16:13 [ed]
CM: should I write up how I think it should work, and send to list?
21:16:18 [ed]
krit1: yeah, sure
21:17:04 [ed]
ACTION: heycam to write up how additive animations should work on filter functions, and send to www-svg
21:17:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3520 - Write up how additive animations should work on filter functions, and send to www-svg [on Cameron McCormack - due 2013-08-29].
21:17:33 [ed]
topic: Review request on SVG 1.1 SVG filters
21:18:59 [ed]
krit1: I'm cleaning up the filter functions
21:19:37 [ed]
... if anyone have some suggestions for how to write descriptions of filter functions in a more clear way please send to the public mailinglist
21:20:05 [ed]
CM: yes, hard to understand what the filter functions do by looking at the algorithm code in the spec
21:20:28 [ed]
... what stage is the filter spec atm?
21:20:38 [ed]
krit1: i think we published second WD
21:21:11 [ed]
CM: should we not review the spec as it is right now?
21:21:18 [ed]
krit1: not until tomorrow at least
21:21:25 [ed]
... i'll ping you next week
21:21:49 [ed]
... by request on peter linss I have some more issues that i'll bring up next week
21:22:02 [ed]
topic: Should color values in all our specs be between 0.255 or 0..1?
21:22:29 [ed]
krit1: svg filters defntions not always clear which range we use
21:23:10 [ed]
Tav: one problem with 255 is that you can't have half
21:23:24 [ed]
DS: anyone disagree with 0..1 is the better way?
21:23:50 [ed]
Tav: maybe backwards compat?
21:24:18 [ed]
DS: it's only a spec-level change, shouldnt affect the implementations
21:25:14 [ed]
tav: how do we deal with displacement map, it's to 0..255, right?
21:25:35 [ed]
CM: we're only talking about the spec definitions, right?
21:25:46 [ed]
DS: yes, but in authoring practice
21:25:59 [ed]
... but we should resolve on using 0..1 for colors
21:26:11 [ed]
... and then we should look at where we use 0.255 in the spec
21:26:38 [ed]
tav: would like the lighting filters, where you have discontinuities, produces steps
21:26:43 [ed]
... you get a bump
21:26:55 [ed]
... you get angles in your bump maps
21:27:14 [ed]
DS: we could use a functions, instead of rgb we could use hsl, or some value
21:27:25 [ed]
tav: would like to see it addressed at some point
21:27:35 [ed]
DS: put forward a proposal?
21:28:09 [ed]
tav: red value for x direciton, blue for y direction, but you define the bumps in terms of color
21:28:25 [ed]
... <tries to find example>
21:28:36 [Tav]
21:28:50 [ed]
DS: maybe we should first have a proposal?
21:29:27 [ed]
tav: you can see the effects on that page
21:29:39 [ed]
krit1: do you want the artifacts, or smooth?
21:29:41 [ed]
tav: smooth
21:29:54 [ed]
... you define the map as a png or a bitmap or whatever
21:30:19 [ed]
CM: the intermediate thing you render to, are you allowed to have something more precise that you input to the lighting filter
21:30:22 [ed]
tav: right
21:30:43 [ed]
CM: in our internal operations in the spec we should use 0..1, correct?
21:30:46 [ed]
all: yes
21:31:34 [ed]
RESOLUTION: we should always use 0..1 for color values in svg specifications
21:31:52 [shepazu]
21:32:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]
21:32:10 [ed]
CM: this comes up in filter primitive definitions?
21:32:22 [ed]
krit1: would be good to specify in the beginning
21:32:56 [Zakim]
- +1.425.373.aaaa
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21:33:01 [Zakim]
21:33:01 [Zakim]
21:33:05 [Zakim]
21:33:07 [Zakim]
21:33:16 [Zakim]
21:37:34 [ed]
trackbot, end telcon
21:37:34 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
21:37:34 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been [IPcaller], krit, Doug_Schepers, ed, birtles, heycam, Rich, nikos, +1.425.373.aaaa, Tav
21:37:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:37:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
21:37:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
21:37:43 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
21:37:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: krit to add filter function data type for declarative animations (to the filter effects spec) [1]
21:37:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
21:37:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: heycam to write up how additive animations should work on filter functions, and send to www-svg [2]
21:37:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in