IRC log of dap on 2013-08-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:30:27 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:30:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:30:29 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
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Zakim, this will be DAP
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ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 30 minutes
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Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference
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Date: 21 August 2013
13:31:06 [fjh]
13:31:21 [fjh]
fjh has changed the topic to: dap 3279; agenda
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Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
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Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
13:32:06 [fjh]
Regrets+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
13:32:37 [fjh]
Topic: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection, announcements
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UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
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13:58:06 [Zakim]
13:58:13 [fjh]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
13:58:13 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
13:58:41 [fjh]
scribenick: fjh
14:00:15 [fjh]
Reminder: No DAP F2F at TPAC.
14:00:15 [fjh]
Publishing moratoria (26 Aug, 11 Nov, 18 Dec)
14:00:16 [fjh]
Reminder (28 Aug deadline): meeting time proposal:
14:00:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.750.aaaa
14:00:32 [Zakim]
14:00:35 [fjh]
zakim, where is 858?
14:00:35 [Zakim]
North American dialing code 1.858 is California
14:00:45 [gmandyam]
gmandyam has joined #dap
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zakim, aaaa is gmandyam
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+gmandyam; got it
14:01:09 [Cathy]
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14:01:31 [fjh]
Present+ Rich_Tibbett, Cathy_Chan, Giri_Mandyam
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Present+ Josh_Soref
14:01:44 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:01:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Josh_Soref, fjh, richt
14:01:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Cathy, gmandyam, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, tobie, richt, anssik, Josh_Soref, trackbot, mounir, slightlyoff
14:02:13 [Zakim]
14:04:13 [fjh]
fjh: if you are attending TPAC, please consider attending the Media Capture TF meeting, as they would like attendance from members of DAP
14:04:32 [fjh]
many of those on the call indicated they are attending TPAC
14:04:44 [Zakim]
14:04:45 [fjh]
fjh: please let the TF know you plan to attend, perhaps by sending mail to the TF public list
14:05:20 [anssik]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:07:41 [fjh]
please note meeting time proposal:
14:08:08 [fjh]
fjh: and respond if any issue, otherwise we will shift to Thursdays at same time starting 12 Sept (unless objection heard on the list)
14:08:17 [fjh]
Topic: Minutes approval
14:08:23 [fjh]
Approve minutes from 14 August 2013
14:08:24 [fjh]
14:08:29 [fjh]
RESOLUTION: Minutes from 14 August 2013 are approved
14:08:49 [fjh]
Topic: Network Discovery
14:10:06 [fjh]
fjh: additional comment, Cathy:
14:10:09 [fjh]
richt: some of the issues can be closed
14:11:01 [fjh]
14:11:01 [trackbot]
ISSUE-129 -- Simplify Network Service Discovery API -- open
14:11:01 [trackbot]
14:11:15 [fjh]
14:11:15 [trackbot]
ISSUE-130 -- Enable variety of protocols (e.g. UPnP, Bonour) with protocol independent developer code -- open
14:11:15 [trackbot]
14:11:34 [richt]
ISSUE-129, we talked about this at some length in a previous conf call:
14:12:02 [fjh]
fjh: I think we need to seriously consider extension points, pulling Dial out etc
14:14:04 [Zakim]
14:14:08 [anssik]
zakim, ??P9 is me
14:14:08 [Zakim]
+anssik; got it
14:14:22 [fjh]
cathy: this is a separate issue
14:14:34 [fjh]
richt: these two should be closed
14:15:55 [fjh]
richt: re ISSUE-129 jean claude has different model in mind, specification allows different interaction mechanisms, levels so events allow different models
14:16:58 [richt]
Regarding ISSUE-129, JCD is looking at this from one implementation perspective: return zero services then use the onserviceavailable event to then re-call getNetworkServices....
14:17:21 [fjh]
ACTION: fjh to close ISSUE-129 and ISSUE-130
14:17:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-651 - Close issue-129 and issue-130 [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2013-08-28].
14:17:23 [richt]
a user agent MAY return 1 or more services on the first call, making the onserviceavailable event useful for monitoring changes on the network.
14:17:33 [richt]
Allowing that kind of flexibility is good.
14:17:49 [richt]
Therefore we don't want to change the specification as suggested in ISSUE-129.
14:18:20 [richt]
we also discussed this in
14:18:37 [richt]
14:18:37 [trackbot]
Notes added to ISSUE-130 Enable variety of protocols (e.g. UPnP, Bonour) with protocol independent developer code.
14:19:29 [fjh]
richt: sent mail to list, introduces more problems to do this, especially since no commonality among the various protocols
14:19:56 [Cathy]
+1 on closing ISSUE-129 and ISSUE-130
14:20:06 [fjh]
richt: so that proposal is not mature
14:20:06 [fjh]
close ISSUE-129
14:20:06 [trackbot]
Closed ISSUE-129.
14:20:08 [fjh]
close ISSUE-130
14:20:08 [trackbot]
Closed ISSUE-130.
14:20:17 [fjh]
close ACTION-651
14:20:17 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-651.
14:20:38 [fjh]
14:20:38 [trackbot]
ISSUE-131 -- Support UPnP device discovery by Device Type? -- open
14:20:38 [trackbot]
14:21:04 [richt]
FYI, my email to the list RE: ISSUE-130 is @
14:21:42 [fjh]
cathy: still open, Rich noted want to be able to group by device not device type, agree with this, but need to work through the details
14:21:50 [richt]
FYI, response to ISSUE-131:
14:21:57 [fjh]
cathy: up to UA to group by device, but what if UA does not do grouping
14:22:13 [fjh]
cathy: how can UA handle permissions in that case
14:22:39 [fjh]
cathy: I am working on defining the issue, then we can consider a proposal
14:23:01 [fjh]
14:23:01 [trackbot]
ISSUE-132 -- Announce a webapp as a Network Services Discovery -- open
14:23:01 [trackbot]
14:23:48 [fjh]
fjh: this is a separate issue, announcing self on network
14:24:04 [fjh]
cathy: yes, agreed that this could be a separate spec at some point if needed, so can close
14:24:16 [fjh]
ISSUE-132: WG agreed that this could be a separate spec at some point if needed
14:24:16 [trackbot]
Notes added to ISSUE-132 Announce a webapp as a Network Services Discovery.
14:24:20 [fjh]
close ISSUE-132
14:24:20 [trackbot]
Closed ISSUE-132.
14:24:29 [fjh]
14:24:29 [trackbot]
ISSUE-133 -- Fix UPnP events subscription and unsubscription -- open
14:24:29 [trackbot]
14:25:07 [fjh]
cathy: came up much earlier comments, UPnP event subscription issue
14:25:30 [fjh]
cathy: spec has some bugs, so needs to be cleaned up, processing model is currently unclear, so the spec needs revision
14:25:46 [fjh]
cathy: jean claude raised issue as to why we do this at all
14:26:10 [fjh]
rich: these are good and helpful comments, need to review
14:26:26 [fjh]
richt: should we be handling event subscriptions is an issue, have heard question from others
14:26:33 [fjh]
14:26:46 [fjh]
richt: it is in there so we can get pushed messages
14:26:57 [fjh]
richt: it is quite useful
14:27:43 [fjh]
richt: do we need it in the spec, maybe we don't , but it is there to have bi-directional communication channel and to allow publish subscribe, not offered by browsers
14:28:27 [fjh]
richt: it is a UPnP only feature, so for that reason it might make sense to remove
14:28:44 [fjh]
fjh: is this a feature we need, is it nice to have but not needed?
14:29:01 [fjh]
richt: removing it would remove capability from UPnP services
14:29:12 [fjh]
richt: fixing it would be significant work
14:30:07 [fjh]
fjh: I'm wondering if it makes sense to remove, to err on the side of simplicity, simplify testing etc
14:30:27 [fjh]
fjh: maybe send message saying will remove see who complains
14:30:49 [fjh]
cathy: goal was to have full UPnP experience, if removed, can web application still accomplish this
14:31:02 [fjh]
richt: maybe could accomplish in other more modular way
14:31:14 [fjh]
richt: like idea of keeping it simple
14:31:31 [fjh]
richt: there may be other places in platform to solve it in better
14:32:22 [fjh]
fjh: perhaps remove, simplify testing
14:32:31 [fjh]
richt: not much coupling since specific to UPnP
14:33:20 [fjh]
richt: will try to fix ISSUE-133 before we publish WD
14:33:33 [fjh]
14:33:33 [trackbot]
ISSUE-134 -- Rename NetworkServices and NetworkService events -- open
14:33:33 [trackbot]
14:34:14 [fjh]
cathy: suggestion to rename events, proposal in ISSUE
14:34:29 [fjh]
fjh: makes sense to me
14:34:33 [fjh]
richt: makes sense to me
14:34:45 [fjh]
richt: will make this change
14:34:58 [fjh]
14:34:58 [trackbot]
ISSUE-135 -- Add security and privacy considerations section -- open
14:34:58 [trackbot]
14:35:04 [fjh]
fjh: done
14:35:19 [fjh]
close ISSUE-135
14:35:19 [trackbot]
Closed ISSUE-135.
14:35:28 [fjh]
14:35:28 [trackbot]
ISSUE-136 -- Issues related to garbage collection -- open
14:35:28 [trackbot]
14:35:45 [fjh]
close ISSUE-136
14:35:45 [trackbot]
Closed ISSUE-136.
14:36:11 [fjh]
fjh: we should respond to Adam regarding ISSUE-135 and ISSUE-136 once we have new WD
14:37:39 [fjh]
fjh: shall we plan to publish an updated WD on the 5 Sept
14:37:48 [fjh]
fjh: would need publication ready draft by Wed 4th
14:37:52 [fjh]
richt: that should work
14:38:25 [fjh]
fjh: others things to talk about with regards to Network Service Disovery
14:38:41 [fjh]
richt: question about security with UPnP, also dubious services
14:38:44 [fjh]
richt: XXX?
14:38:55 [fjh]
richt: need to talk about those in security and privacy section
14:39:04 [fjh]
richt: dom sent pointer related to this
14:39:32 [fjh]
richt: second item, looking for feedback from other vendors now as well
14:39:39 [fjh]
fjh: publishing WD will help us request that
14:39:50 [fjh]
richt: TPAC would be good place for that
14:40:06 [fjh]
fjh: maybe a birds session on this would be helpful
14:42:03 [richt]
some other security-related issues for NSD to think about:
14:42:07 [fjh]
fjh: you can propose a session:
14:42:17 [richt]
my response @
14:42:26 [fjh]
fjh: I meant break-out session
14:43:00 [fjh]
Topic: Proximity and Light
14:43:08 [fjh]
Newly raised issues addressed in editors draft, see
14:43:21 [fjh]
fjh: thanks Anssi for the updates
14:43:30 [fjh]
anssik: thanks Dom for the very careful review
14:44:05 [fjh]
fjh: we do not have formal resolution of some issues, so am waiting on CfC
14:44:06 [fjh]
Proximity Event API LC-2740 requires resolution:
14:44:07 [fjh]
Ambient Light Event API LC-2739 requires resolution:
14:44:32 [fjh]
fjh: these are the "one document" versus separate specs
14:46:02 [fjh]
fjh: good arguments either way, I suggest we go with our current direction
14:46:52 [fjh]
josh_soref: current approach allows to implement only one, without confusion of what it means to be conformant if only implementing Light but not Proximity for example
14:47:37 [fjh]
anssik: this is editorial
14:47:48 [fjh]
fjh: can we go to REC with two specs
14:48:25 [fjh]
josh_soref: can go forward to REC with two specifications but allow creation of consolidated version
14:49:45 [fjh]
josh_soref: having a single document can still introduce errors when material from one is not appropriate to another
14:50:06 [fjh]
josh_soref: talking about simply generating merge from two documents
14:51:29 [fjh]
RESOLUTION: WG agrees to keep Proximity Event API and Ambient Light Event API as separate REC Track specifications to enable clarity regarding testing and conformance
14:51:46 [fjh]
WG notes that combined version can be generated for convenience from these two documents.
14:52:03 [fjh]
No confirmations on Proximity LC-2731, LC-2742 and Light LC-2737 and LC-2738.
14:52:26 [fjh]
fjh: as with other specs, will assume confirmation unless response received during CfC period
14:52:46 [fjh]
fjh: I believe this means that I can send the CfCs now
14:52:58 [fjh]
Topic: Vibration
14:53:08 [fjh]
Question/Comment on CR draft:
14:53:08 [fjh]
Question Vibration and iframes,
14:53:09 [fjh]
Question: Vibration strength
14:53:20 [fjh]
fjh: I suggest you look at these and respond on the list
14:53:25 [fjh]
anssik: will look at them
14:54:43 [fjh]
fjh: if we need a clarification it would be useful to add
14:55:18 [fjh]
josh_soref: will work on the git pull requests for vibration test cases
14:55:35 [fjh]
Topic; Action Review
14:56:55 [fjh]
14:58:18 [Zakim]
14:58:22 [Zakim]
14:58:24 [Zakim]
14:58:27 [Zakim]
15:01:09 [fjh]
15:01:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-523 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Work on test cases for battery, vibration, and HTML Media Capture -- due 2012-08-31 -- OPEN
15:01:09 [trackbot]
15:01:13 [fjh]
15:01:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-621 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Create test cases for HTML Media Capture -- due 2013-03-13 -- OPEN
15:01:13 [trackbot]
15:01:26 [fjh]
15:01:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-642 -- Dominique Hazaƫl-Massieux to Review proximity and ambient light test cases -- due 2013-09-18 -- OPEN
15:01:26 [trackbot]
15:01:31 [fjh]
15:01:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-643 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Review Ambient Light and Proximity test cases by Sept -- due 2013-07-10 -- OPEN
15:01:31 [trackbot]
15:01:36 [fjh]
15:01:36 [trackbot]
ACTION-645 -- Frederick Hirsch to Share Network Service Discovery editors draft with PING -- due 2013-07-31 -- OPEN
15:01:36 [trackbot]
15:01:44 [fjh]
15:01:44 [trackbot]
ACTION-646 -- Frederick Hirsch to Organize joint call with web and tv group re network service discovery -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN
15:01:44 [trackbot]
15:01:49 [Zakim]
15:01:50 [fjh]
15:01:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-647 -- Frederick Hirsch to Send cfc to progress light to cr, two week cfc -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN
15:01:50 [trackbot]
15:01:56 [fjh]
15:01:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-648 -- Frederick Hirsch to Send cfc to progress proxmity to cr, two week cfc -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN
15:01:56 [trackbot]
15:02:00 [fjh]
15:02:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-649 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Review todo items associated with battery test cases -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN
15:02:00 [trackbot]
15:02:08 [fjh]
close ACTION-650
15:02:08 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-650.
15:02:27 [fjh]
Topic: Other business
15:02:28 [fjh]
15:02:32 [fjh]
Topic: Adjourn
15:02:40 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:02:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
15:04:19 [fjh]
s/birds session/break-out session/
15:04:27 [fjh]
s/ I meant break-out session//
15:04:59 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
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I have made the request to generate fjh
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UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Josh_Soref, fjh, +1.858.750.aaaa, gmandyam, richt, Cathy, anssik
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