IRC log of dap on 2013-08-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:30:27 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dap

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-dap-irc

13:30:29 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:30:29 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #dap

13:30:31 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be DAP

13:30:31 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 30 minutes

13:30:32 [trackbot]

Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference

13:30:32 [trackbot]

Date: 21 August 2013

13:31:06 [fjh]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0046.html

13:31:21 [fjh]

fjh has changed the topic to: dap 3279; agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0046.html

13:31:37 [fjh]

Chair: Frederick_Hirsch

13:31:51 [fjh]

Present+ Frederick_Hirsch

13:32:06 [fjh]

Regrets+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux

13:32:37 [fjh]

Topic: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection, announcements

13:56:42 [Zakim]

UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started

13:56:49 [Zakim]

+Josh_Soref

13:58:06 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

13:58:13 [fjh]

zakim, [IPcaller] is me

13:58:13 [Zakim]

+fjh; got it

13:58:41 [fjh]

scribenick: fjh

14:00:15 [fjh]

Reminder: No DAP F2F at TPAC.

14:00:15 [fjh]

Publishing moratoria (26 Aug, 11 Nov, 18 Dec) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013JulSep/0029

14:00:16 [fjh]

Reminder (28 Aug deadline): meeting time proposal: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-device-apis/2013Aug/0000.html

14:00:22 [Zakim]

+ +1.858.750.aaaa

14:00:32 [Zakim]

+??P26

14:00:35 [fjh]

zakim, where is 858?

14:00:35 [Zakim]

North American dialing code 1.858 is California

14:00:45 [gmandyam]

gmandyam has joined #dap

14:00:53 [fjh]

zakim, aaaa is gmandyam

14:00:53 [Zakim]

+gmandyam; got it

14:01:09 [Cathy]

Cathy has joined #dap

14:01:22 [Zakim]

-gmandyam

14:01:31 [fjh]

Present+ Rich_Tibbett, Cathy_Chan, Giri_Mandyam

14:01:36 [fjh]

Present+ Josh_Soref

14:01:44 [fjh]

zakim, who is here?

14:01:44 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Josh_Soref, fjh, richt

14:01:46 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Cathy, gmandyam, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, tobie, richt, anssik, Josh_Soref, trackbot, mounir, slightlyoff

14:02:13 [Zakim]

+gmandyam

14:04:13 [fjh]

fjh: if you are attending TPAC, please consider attending the Media Capture TF meeting, as they would like attendance from members of DAP

14:04:32 [fjh]

many of those on the call indicated they are attending TPAC

14:04:44 [Zakim]

+Cathy

14:04:45 [fjh]

fjh: please let the TF know you plan to attend, perhaps by sending mail to the TF public list

14:05:20 [anssik]

Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen

14:07:41 [fjh]

please note meeting time proposal: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-device-apis/2013Aug/0000.html

14:08:08 [fjh]

fjh: and respond if any issue, otherwise we will shift to Thursdays at same time starting 12 Sept (unless objection heard on the list)

14:08:17 [fjh]

Topic: Minutes approval

14:08:23 [fjh]

Approve minutes from 14 August 2013

14:08:24 [fjh]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/att-0027/minutes-2013-08-14.html

14:08:29 [fjh]

RESOLUTION: Minutes from 14 August 2013 are approved

14:08:49 [fjh]

Topic: Network Discovery

14:10:06 [fjh]

fjh: additional comment, Cathy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0028.html

14:10:09 [fjh]

richt: some of the issues can be closed

14:11:01 [fjh]

ISSUE-129?

14:11:01 [trackbot]

ISSUE-129 -- Simplify Network Service Discovery API -- open

14:11:01 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/129

14:11:15 [fjh]

ISSUE-130?

14:11:15 [trackbot]

ISSUE-130 -- Enable variety of protocols (e.g. UPnP, Bonour) with protocol independent developer code -- open

14:11:15 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/130

14:11:34 [richt]

ISSUE-129, we talked about this at some length in a previous conf call: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/att-0002/minutes-2013-07-24.html#item03

14:12:02 [fjh]

fjh: I think we need to seriously consider extension points, pulling Dial out etc

14:14:04 [Zakim]

+??P9

14:14:08 [anssik]

zakim, ??P9 is me

14:14:08 [Zakim]

+anssik; got it

14:14:22 [fjh]

cathy: this is a separate issue

14:14:34 [fjh]

richt: these two should be closed

14:15:55 [fjh]

richt: re ISSUE-129 jean claude has different model in mind, specification allows different interaction mechanisms, levels so events allow different models

14:16:58 [richt]

Regarding ISSUE-129, JCD is looking at this from one implementation perspective: return zero services then use the onserviceavailable event to then re-call getNetworkServices....

14:17:21 [fjh]

ACTION: fjh to close ISSUE-129 and ISSUE-130

14:17:22 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-651 - Close issue-129 and issue-130 [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2013-08-28].

14:17:23 [richt]

a user agent MAY return 1 or more services on the first call, making the onserviceavailable event useful for monitoring changes on the network.

14:17:33 [richt]

Allowing that kind of flexibility is good.

14:17:49 [richt]

Therefore we don't want to change the specification as suggested in ISSUE-129.

14:18:20 [richt]

we also discussed this in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/att-0002/minutes-2013-07-24.html#item03

14:18:37 [richt]

ISSUE-130: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/att-0002/minutes-2013-07-24.html#item05

14:18:37 [trackbot]

Notes added to ISSUE-130 Enable variety of protocols (e.g. UPnP, Bonour) with protocol independent developer code.

14:19:29 [fjh]

richt: sent mail to list, introduces more problems to do this, especially since no commonality among the various protocols

14:19:56 [Cathy]

+1 on closing ISSUE-129 and ISSUE-130

14:20:06 [fjh]

richt: so that proposal is not mature

14:20:06 [fjh]

close ISSUE-129

14:20:06 [trackbot]

Closed ISSUE-129.

14:20:08 [fjh]

close ISSUE-130

14:20:08 [trackbot]

Closed ISSUE-130.

14:20:17 [fjh]

close ACTION-651

14:20:17 [trackbot]

Closed ACTION-651.

14:20:38 [fjh]

ISSUE-131?

14:20:38 [trackbot]

ISSUE-131 -- Support UPnP device discovery by Device Type? -- open

14:20:38 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/131

14:21:04 [richt]

FYI, my email to the list RE: ISSUE-130 is @ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Jul/0032.html

14:21:42 [fjh]

cathy: still open, Rich noted want to be able to group by device not device type, agree with this, but need to work through the details

14:21:50 [richt]

FYI, response to ISSUE-131: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Jul/0034.html

14:21:57 [fjh]

cathy: up to UA to group by device, but what if UA does not do grouping

14:22:13 [fjh]

cathy: how can UA handle permissions in that case

14:22:39 [fjh]

cathy: I am working on defining the issue, then we can consider a proposal

14:23:01 [fjh]

ISSUE-132?

14:23:01 [trackbot]

ISSUE-132 -- Announce a webapp as a Network Services Discovery -- open

14:23:01 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/132

14:23:48 [fjh]

fjh: this is a separate issue, announcing self on network

14:24:04 [fjh]

cathy: yes, agreed that this could be a separate spec at some point if needed, so can close

14:24:16 [fjh]

ISSUE-132: WG agreed that this could be a separate spec at some point if needed

14:24:16 [trackbot]

Notes added to ISSUE-132 Announce a webapp as a Network Services Discovery.

14:24:20 [fjh]

close ISSUE-132

14:24:20 [trackbot]

Closed ISSUE-132.

14:24:29 [fjh]

ISSUE-133?

14:24:29 [trackbot]

ISSUE-133 -- Fix UPnP events subscription and unsubscription -- open

14:24:29 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/133

14:25:07 [fjh]

cathy: came up much earlier comments, UPnP event subscription issue

14:25:30 [fjh]

cathy: spec has some bugs, so needs to be cleaned up, processing model is currently unclear, so the spec needs revision

14:25:46 [fjh]

cathy: jean claude raised issue as to why we do this at all

14:26:10 [fjh]

rich: these are good and helpful comments, need to review

14:26:26 [fjh]

richt: should we be handling event subscriptions is an issue, have heard question from others

14:26:33 [fjh]

s/rich:/richt:/

14:26:46 [fjh]

richt: it is in there so we can get pushed messages

14:26:57 [fjh]

richt: it is quite useful

14:27:43 [fjh]

richt: do we need it in the spec, maybe we don't , but it is there to have bi-directional communication channel and to allow publish subscribe, not offered by browsers

14:28:27 [fjh]

richt: it is a UPnP only feature, so for that reason it might make sense to remove

14:28:44 [fjh]

fjh: is this a feature we need, is it nice to have but not needed?

14:29:01 [fjh]

richt: removing it would remove capability from UPnP services

14:29:12 [fjh]

richt: fixing it would be significant work

14:30:07 [fjh]

fjh: I'm wondering if it makes sense to remove, to err on the side of simplicity, simplify testing etc

14:30:27 [fjh]

fjh: maybe send message saying will remove see who complains

14:30:49 [fjh]

cathy: goal was to have full UPnP experience, if removed, can web application still accomplish this

14:31:02 [fjh]

richt: maybe could accomplish in other more modular way

14:31:14 [fjh]

richt: like idea of keeping it simple

14:31:31 [fjh]

richt: there may be other places in platform to solve it in better

14:32:22 [fjh]

fjh: perhaps remove, simplify testing

14:32:31 [fjh]

richt: not much coupling since specific to UPnP

14:33:20 [fjh]

richt: will try to fix ISSUE-133 before we publish WD

14:33:33 [fjh]

ISSUE-134?

14:33:33 [trackbot]

ISSUE-134 -- Rename NetworkServices and NetworkService events -- open

14:33:33 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/134

14:34:14 [fjh]

cathy: suggestion to rename events, proposal in ISSUE

14:34:29 [fjh]

fjh: makes sense to me

14:34:33 [fjh]

richt: makes sense to me

14:34:45 [fjh]

richt: will make this change

14:34:58 [fjh]

ISSUE-135?

14:34:58 [trackbot]

ISSUE-135 -- Add security and privacy considerations section -- open

14:34:58 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/135

14:35:04 [fjh]

fjh: done

14:35:19 [fjh]

close ISSUE-135

14:35:19 [trackbot]

Closed ISSUE-135.

14:35:28 [fjh]

ISSUE-136?

14:35:28 [trackbot]

ISSUE-136 -- Issues related to garbage collection -- open

14:35:28 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/136

14:35:45 [fjh]

close ISSUE-136

14:35:45 [trackbot]

Closed ISSUE-136.

14:36:11 [fjh]

fjh: we should respond to Adam regarding ISSUE-135 and ISSUE-136 once we have new WD

14:37:39 [fjh]

fjh: shall we plan to publish an updated WD on the 5 Sept

14:37:48 [fjh]

fjh: would need publication ready draft by Wed 4th

14:37:52 [fjh]

richt: that should work

14:38:25 [fjh]

fjh: others things to talk about with regards to Network Service Disovery

14:38:41 [fjh]

richt: question about security with UPnP, also dubious services

14:38:44 [fjh]

richt: XXX?

14:38:55 [fjh]

richt: need to talk about those in security and privacy section

14:39:04 [fjh]

richt: dom sent pointer related to this

14:39:32 [fjh]

richt: second item, looking for feedback from other vendors now as well

14:39:39 [fjh]

fjh: publishing WD will help us request that

14:39:50 [fjh]

richt: TPAC would be good place for that

14:40:06 [fjh]

fjh: maybe a birds session on this would be helpful

14:42:03 [richt]

some other security-related issues for NSD to think about: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/HT0KZKuTLxM/DG9jOw6WzwoJ

14:42:07 [fjh]

fjh: you can propose a session: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas

14:42:17 [richt]

my response @ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0004.html

14:42:26 [fjh]

fjh: I meant break-out session

14:43:00 [fjh]

Topic: Proximity and Light

14:43:08 [fjh]

Newly raised issues addressed in editors draft, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0044.html

14:43:21 [fjh]

fjh: thanks Anssi for the updates

14:43:30 [fjh]

anssik: thanks Dom for the very careful review

14:44:05 [fjh]

fjh: we do not have formal resolution of some issues, so am waiting on CfC

14:44:06 [fjh]

Proximity Event API LC-2740 requires resolution: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/43696/WD-proximity-20121206/2740

14:44:07 [fjh]

Ambient Light Event API LC-2739 requires resolution: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/43696/WD-ambient-light-20121213/2739

14:44:32 [fjh]

fjh: these are the "one document" versus separate specs

14:46:02 [fjh]

fjh: good arguments either way, I suggest we go with our current direction

14:46:52 [fjh]

josh_soref: current approach allows to implement only one, without confusion of what it means to be conformant if only implementing Light but not Proximity for example

14:47:37 [fjh]

anssik: this is editorial

14:47:48 [fjh]

fjh: can we go to REC with two specs

14:48:25 [fjh]

josh_soref: can go forward to REC with two specifications but allow creation of consolidated version

14:49:45 [fjh]

josh_soref: having a single document can still introduce errors when material from one is not appropriate to another

14:50:06 [fjh]

josh_soref: talking about simply generating merge from two documents

14:51:29 [fjh]

RESOLUTION: WG agrees to keep Proximity Event API and Ambient Light Event API as separate REC Track specifications to enable clarity regarding testing and conformance

14:51:46 [fjh]

WG notes that combined version can be generated for convenience from these two documents.

14:52:03 [fjh]

No confirmations on Proximity LC-2731, LC-2742 and Light LC-2737 and LC-2738.

14:52:26 [fjh]

fjh: as with other specs, will assume confirmation unless response received during CfC period

14:52:46 [fjh]

fjh: I believe this means that I can send the CfCs now

14:52:58 [fjh]

Topic: Vibration

14:53:08 [fjh]

Question/Comment on CR draft: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Jul/0050.html

14:53:08 [fjh]

Question Vibration and iframes, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Jul/0055.html

14:53:09 [fjh]

Question: Vibration strength http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0040.html

14:53:20 [fjh]

fjh: I suggest you look at these and respond on the list

14:53:25 [fjh]

anssik: will look at them

14:54:43 [fjh]

fjh: if we need a clarification it would be useful to add

14:55:18 [fjh]

josh_soref: will work on the git pull requests for vibration test cases

14:55:35 [fjh]

Topic; Action Review

14:56:55 [fjh]

s/Topic;/Topic:/

14:58:18 [Zakim]

-anssik

14:58:22 [Zakim]

-Cathy

14:58:24 [Zakim]

-richt

14:58:27 [Zakim]

-gmandyam

15:01:09 [fjh]

ACTION-523?

15:01:09 [trackbot]

ACTION-523 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Work on test cases for battery, vibration, and HTML Media Capture -- due 2012-08-31 -- OPEN

15:01:09 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/523

15:01:13 [fjh]

ACTION-621?

15:01:13 [trackbot]

ACTION-621 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Create test cases for HTML Media Capture -- due 2013-03-13 -- OPEN

15:01:13 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/621

15:01:26 [fjh]

ACTION-642?

15:01:26 [trackbot]

ACTION-642 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to Review proximity and ambient light test cases -- due 2013-09-18 -- OPEN

15:01:26 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/642

15:01:31 [fjh]

ACTION-643?

15:01:31 [trackbot]

ACTION-643 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Review Ambient Light and Proximity test cases by Sept -- due 2013-07-10 -- OPEN

15:01:31 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/643

15:01:36 [fjh]

ACTION-645?

15:01:36 [trackbot]

ACTION-645 -- Frederick Hirsch to Share Network Service Discovery editors draft with PING -- due 2013-07-31 -- OPEN

15:01:36 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/645

15:01:44 [fjh]

ACTION-646?

15:01:44 [trackbot]

ACTION-646 -- Frederick Hirsch to Organize joint call with web and tv group re network service discovery -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN

15:01:44 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/646

15:01:49 [Zakim]

-Josh_Soref

15:01:50 [fjh]

ACTION-647?

15:01:50 [trackbot]

ACTION-647 -- Frederick Hirsch to Send cfc to progress light to cr, two week cfc -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN

15:01:50 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/647

15:01:56 [fjh]

ACTION-648?

15:01:56 [trackbot]

ACTION-648 -- Frederick Hirsch to Send cfc to progress proxmity to cr, two week cfc -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN

15:01:56 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/648

15:02:00 [fjh]

ACTION-649?

15:02:00 [trackbot]

ACTION-649 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Review todo items associated with battery test cases -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN

15:02:00 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/649

15:02:08 [fjh]

close ACTION-650

15:02:08 [trackbot]

Closed ACTION-650.

15:02:27 [fjh]

Topic: Other business

15:02:28 [fjh]

none

15:02:32 [fjh]

Topic: Adjourn

15:02:40 [fjh]

rrsagent, generate minutes

15:02:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-dap-minutes.html fjh

15:04:19 [fjh]

s/birds session/break-out session/

15:04:27 [fjh]

s/ I meant break-out session//

15:04:59 [fjh]

rrsagent, generate minutes

15:04:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-dap-minutes.html fjh

15:05:59 [Zakim]

-fjh

15:06:01 [Zakim]

UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended

15:06:01 [Zakim]

Attendees were Josh_Soref, fjh, +1.858.750.aaaa, gmandyam, richt, Cathy, anssik

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