IRC log of pf on 2013-08-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:01:19 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #pf

14:01:19 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/19-pf-irc

14:01:21 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs member

14:01:23 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_PF

14:01:23 [Zakim]

WAI_PF matches both WAI_PFWG(HTML A11Y)9:00AM and WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM

14:01:24 [trackbot]

Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference

14:01:24 [trackbot]

Date: 19 August 2013

14:01:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]

RRSAgent, make log public

14:01:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]

chair: Rich

14:01:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]

meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

14:03:47 [janina]

trackbot, start meeting

14:03:49 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs member

14:03:50 [clown]

zakim, who's here?

14:03:50 [Zakim]

apparently WAI_PF()12:00PM has ended, clown

14:03:51 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_PF

14:03:52 [trackbot]

Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference

14:03:52 [trackbot]

Date: 19 August 2013

14:03:52 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, clown, richardschwerdtfeger, jongund, janina, scott_gonzalez, Zakim, trackbot

14:03:52 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM already started

14:04:22 [clown]

zakim, who's here?

14:04:22 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Jon_Gunderson, [GVoice], ??P5, Rich

14:04:22 [janina]

agenda?

14:04:23 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, clown, richardschwerdtfeger, jongund, janina, scott_gonzalez, Zakim, trackbot

14:04:33 [jcraig]

jcraig has joined #pf

14:04:38 [clown]

zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer

14:04:38 [Zakim]

+Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it

14:04:45 [clown]

zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer

14:04:45 [Zakim]

ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer

14:05:14 [janina]

zakim, who's here?

14:05:14 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Jon_Gunderson, Joseph_Scheuhammer, ??P5, Rich

14:05:15 [Zakim]

On IRC I see jcraig, RRSAgent, clown, richardschwerdtfeger, jongund, janina, scott_gonzalez, Zakim, trackbot

14:05:24 [janina]

zakim, ??P5 is me

14:05:24 [Zakim]

+janina; got it

14:05:26 [richardschwerdtfeger]

RRSAgent, make log public

14:05:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]

chair: Rich

14:05:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]

Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

14:05:54 [Zakim]

+James_Craig

14:07:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2013Aug/0027.html

14:07:45 [MichaelC]

MichaelC has joined #pf

14:08:38 [Zakim]

+Cooper

14:09:27 [jcraig]

scribe: jcraig

14:09:58 [jcraig]

TOPIC: next steps on @aria-describedat

14:10:23 [jcraig]

RS: group thought taking an ID would be a good idea

14:10:26 [jcraig]

q+

14:10:32 [MichaelC]

q+

14:11:07 [MichaelC]

ack j

14:11:36 [MichaelC]

ack me

14:11:38 [jcraig]

RS: IDREF of a@ref, link@rel, iframe, etc.

14:12:17 [jcraig]

MC: I think this goes against the idea of @decribedat

14:12:31 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q+

14:12:36 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q?

14:12:51 [jcraig]

ack r

14:13:03 [janina]

q+

14:13:24 [jcraig]

MC: author confusion with @aria-describedby, additional processing for UA, etc.

14:14:31 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q?

14:14:35 [jcraig]

RS: One example use is what description has multiple translations, like source sets or media tracks.

14:15:33 [MichaelC]

q+

14:15:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q+

14:15:56 [jcraig]

MC: confusion is that one is the description contents, and the other is a link to the description. Authors may not understand that.

14:16:00 [jcraig]

ack j

14:16:02 [jcraig]

ack m

14:16:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q?

14:17:01 [clown]

q+ where is the email that outlines the rationale for the new syntax for describeat?

14:17:22 [jcraig]

MC: "at" (as in describedat) indicates a pointer. If we want to repurpose this one, we should rename it too. possibly @aria-descreference?

14:17:24 [MichaelC]

q+ to propose we add both ¨describedat¨ with URI and ¨descriptionreference¨ with IDREF / href

14:17:35 [jcraig]

aria-descref?

14:17:56 [MichaelC]

ack me

14:17:56 [Zakim]

MichaelC, you wanted to propose we add both ¨describedat¨ with URI and ¨descriptionreference¨ with IDREF / href

14:18:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q?

14:18:41 [jcraig]

RS: consensus is that @longdesc is not enough.

14:18:53 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q?

14:18:59 [MichaelC]

ack r

14:19:38 [jcraig]

MC: @aria-describedat would still take a URI. If we need an IDREF to a linking element (e.g. link, iframe), that should be a different attr

14:19:44 [MichaelC]

q+

14:20:10 [janina]

Head of email thread (with 2 messages):

14:20:11 [janina]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2013Aug/0003.html

14:21:02 [jcraig]

MC: I am not arguing against the IDREF to linking element, but saying we still need the IDREF use case

14:21:19 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q?

14:21:22 [MichaelC]

ack me

14:24:03 [janina]

q+

14:24:09 [clown]

q+ for an example of how to use describedat with an iframe element

14:24:28 [jongund]

1+

14:24:32 [jongund]

q+

14:24:42 [jcraig]

RS: Multiple descriptions in different languages, and potentially different media formats, different grade level?

14:24:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q?

14:24:57 [jcraig]

ack j

14:25:07 [jcraig]

ack jan

14:25:47 [jcraig]

JS: @aria-describedby is auto-spoken, where this new would be be an on-demand user navigation

14:26:36 [jcraig]

ack jo

14:26:45 [jcraig]

q- jos

14:28:36 [jcraig]

RS: The IDREF of this new attr could be a element or elements representing a collection of resources representing the various forms (whether, language, format, etc) of descriptions.

14:29:49 [jcraig]

q+ to request clarification from Janina on her comment about different grade level

14:29:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q?

14:30:03 [jcraig]

s/different grade level?/different grade level (Janina)?/

14:30:05 [clown]

q+

14:30:26 [MichaelC]

q+ to say that the proposal for describedat was when we were looking for a solution around overloading describedby with a URI; so would like to keep the simple design pattern for that and use the indirection on another attribute

14:31:04 [MichaelC]

q+ to say if we don´t have a solution for a simple URI pointer, we force authors to add extra elements to the document that they don´t want to deal with

14:31:13 [jcraig]

JG: If you allow describedby to take a URI, would that satisfy the requirement?

14:31:28 [jcraig]

JS: not if it's auto-presented to the user

14:31:29 [MichaelC]

q+ to say which greatly increases error likelihood

14:31:42 [jcraig]

JC: That could be a UA processing difference

14:32:02 [jcraig]

JS: Concern that the processing difference would be overloading.

14:32:09 [jcraig]

ack j

14:32:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q?

14:32:13 [jcraig]

ack james

14:32:19 [jcraig]

ack jcra

14:32:19 [Zakim]

jcraig, you wanted to request clarification from Janina on her comment about different grade level

14:32:21 [MichaelC]

q+ to say I think the indirection attribute is going to be the ¨advanced usage¨ one

14:32:37 [clown]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/Overview.html#Descriptions_external

14:32:48 [jcraig]

q+ to request clarification from Janina on her comment about different grade level

14:34:06 [jcraig]

Clown: example in authoring practices saying you can do that now

14:34:26 [jcraig]

MC: You should remove that example from the authoring practices

14:35:57 [MichaelC]

ack me

14:35:57 [Zakim]

MichaelC, you wanted to say that the proposal for describedat was when we were looking for a solution around overloading describedby with a URI; so would like to keep the simple

14:35:58 [jcraig]

Clown: what about using a URI or Fragment-Identifier

14:36:00 [Zakim]

... design pattern for that and use the indirection on another attribute and to say if we don´t have a solution for a simple URI pointer, we force authors to add extra elements to

14:36:00 [Zakim]

... the document that they don´t want to deal with and to say which greatly increases error likelihood and to say I think the indirection attribute is going to be the ¨advanced

14:36:00 [Zakim]

... usage¨ one

14:37:14 [jcraig]

MC: thought it was crazy to overload a single attr with both IDREF and URI

14:37:38 [jcraig]

q+ to say frag-id is the not the same as URI

14:38:09 [janina]

Call it DescHref ?

14:38:28 [jcraig]

ack me

14:38:28 [Zakim]

jcraig, you wanted to request clarification from Janina on her comment about different grade level and to say frag-id is the not the same as URI

14:38:47 [jcraig]

describedby="foo"

14:39:04 [jcraig]

describedat="#foo"

14:39:45 [jcraig]

q+ to request clarification from Janina on her comment about different grade level

14:40:12 [jcraig]

ack me

14:40:12 [Zakim]

jcraig, you wanted to request clarification from Janina on her comment about different grade level

14:42:47 [jcraig]

JS: DAISY/IDPF suggested this use case for content negotiation based on different reading level

14:43:24 [jcraig]

JC: I agree with the need for that use case, but I don't think the content negotiation part of it should be ARIA

14:46:00 [clown]

q+ to point out that the describeby eg. in the APG is handled by FF

14:47:31 [jcraig]

MC: want to clarify with implementors: in-document IDREF processing can use a difference processing path that getting an element from a fragment identifier

14:48:30 [jcraig]

RS: Consensus?

14:48:52 [jcraig]

MC: Consensus for *proposal* of this approach

14:49:20 [jcraig]

MC: Mapped out by Sept?

14:49:45 [jcraig]

RS: A public editors draft would be sufficient

14:50:51 [jcraig]

q+ to mention concern that we're rushing based on some arbitrary timeline "commitment" to outside groups. Are the "commitments" publicly documented?

14:51:05 [jcraig]

ack jos

14:51:05 [Zakim]

Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to point out that the describeby eg. in the APG is handled by FF

14:54:05 [jcraig]

JS: point is, that it's not abundantly clear that this use case is not already handled by browsers

14:54:36 [jcraig]

JS: +1 for the URI (with potential frag id) idea

14:54:40 [jcraig]

ack me

14:54:40 [Zakim]

jcraig, you wanted to mention concern that we're rushing based on some arbitrary timeline "commitment" to outside groups. Are the "commitments" publicly documented?

14:56:21 [MichaelC]

q+ to say we should definitely publish with lots of ¨this is early days¨ disclaimers

14:59:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/aria-unofficial/raw-file/tip/describedat.html

15:00:51 [clown]

<canvas aria-describedat="#canvas-desc">

15:03:10 [jcraig]

ACTION: jcraig to add describedat using URI+FragID starting from Steve and Rich's proposed: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/aria-unofficial/raw-file/tip/describedat.html

15:03:11 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1250 - Add describedat using uri+fragid starting from steve and rich's proposed: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/aria-unofficial/raw-file/tip/describedat.html [on James Craig - due 2013-08-26].

15:06:01 [clown]

action-691?

15:06:01 [trackbot]

action-691 -- Michael Cooper to Propose an approach for adding ARIA landmarks to the specs and work with editors -- due 2012-11-23 -- OPEN

15:06:01 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/691

15:06:25 [clown]

action-1138?

15:06:25 [trackbot]

action-1138 -- Michael Cooper to Update Role Attr ref after it gets to Recommendation status -- due 2012-01-20 -- OPEN

15:06:25 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1138

15:06:47 [clown]

action-1201?

15:06:47 [trackbot]

action-1201 -- James Nurthen to Generate example list where options can be unselectable -- due 2013-05-01 -- OPEN

15:06:47 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1201

15:06:54 [clown]

action-1218?

15:06:54 [trackbot]

action-1218 -- James Craig to Add informative note to ARIA 1.0 that authors should not rely on rowgroup mappings on all platforms and therefore should not use additional attributes on an element with role rowgroup. -- due 2013-07-31 -- OPEN

15:06:54 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1218

15:07:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/

15:07:45 [jcraig]

Action: Jcraig to check if action-691, action-1138, action-1151, action-1201, and action-1218 impact 1.0 source, if so, complete edits before branching for 1.1.

15:07:45 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1251 - Check if action-691, action-1138, action-1151, action-1201, and action-1218 impact 1.0 source, if so, complete edits before branching for 1.1. [on James Craig - due 2013-08-26].

15:07:48 [clown]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/

15:12:55 [richardschwerdtfeger]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testreport?testsuite_id=1&filter_required=on&filter_cr_met=on&filter=Filter+view

15:15:38 [clown]

issue-595?

15:15:38 [trackbot]

issue-595 -- treegrid for UIA has outline roles vs. gridcell roles. IE implemented gridcell - Change it? -- closed

15:15:38 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/595

15:18:36 [jongund]

q+

15:24:32 [MichaelC]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/

15:26:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=2&testcase_id=1

15:28:34 [MichaelC]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=2

15:28:52 [MichaelC]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#keyboard-focus_tabindex

15:29:11 [MichaelC]

¨When a keydown event is cancelled, also cancel the keypress event.¨

15:32:41 [clown]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#keyboard-focus_tabindex

15:33:55 [clown]

step 7. for above link ^

15:34:20 [Zakim]

-James_Craig

15:34:25 [Zakim]

-Rich

15:34:28 [Zakim]

-Jon_Gunderson

15:34:32 [Zakim]

-Joseph_Scheuhammer

15:34:45 [Zakim]

-Cooper

15:34:47 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM has ended

15:34:47 [Zakim]

Attendees were Jon_Gunderson, Rich, Joseph_Scheuhammer, janina, James_Craig, Cooper

15:34:49 [janina]

zakim, bye

15:34:49 [Zakim]

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15:34:57 [janina]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:34:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/19-pf-minutes.html janina

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