15:23:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #audio
15:23:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/01-audio-irc
15:23:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:23:07 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #audio
15:23:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 28346
15:23:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see RWC_Audio()12:00PM scheduled to start in 37 minutes
15:23:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Audio Working Group Teleconference
15:23:10 <trackbot> Date: 01 August 2013
15:23:27 <olivier> Chair: Chris Lowis
15:23:30 <olivier> Scribe: Olivier
15:23:35 <olivier> ScribeNick: olivier
15:23:56 <olivier> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2013JulSep/0365.html
15:24:27 <olivier> Agenda+ Review of action items -  https://www.w3.org/2011/audio/track/actions/open
15:25:03 <olivier> Agenda+ Web audio API - Issue to close - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17374
15:25:12 <olivier> Agenda+ Web audio API - Issue to close - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20681
15:25:24 <olivier> Agenda+ Web Audio API - Open Issues and bugs
15:25:37 <olivier> Agenda+ Any other business
15:25:44 <olivier> Agenda+ Next meeting
15:26:19 <olivier> olivier has changed the topic to: Audio WG - Zakim conference code 28346 ("AUDIO")
15:40:18 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #audio
15:57:11 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/01-audio-minutes.html olivier
15:57:47 <olivier> zakim, agenda?
15:57:47 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:57:48 <Zakim> 1. Review of action items -  https://www.w3.org/2011/audio/track/actions/open [from olivier]
15:57:48 <Zakim> 2. Web audio API - Issue to close - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17374 [from olivier]
15:57:48 <Zakim> 3. Web audio API - Issue to close - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20681 [from olivier]
15:57:48 <Zakim> 4. Web Audio API - Open Issues and bugs [from olivier]
15:57:48 <Zakim> 5. Any other business [from olivier]
15:57:48 <Zakim> 6. Next meeting [from olivier]
15:59:11 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has now started
15:59:18 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
15:59:32 <ehsan> ehsan has joined #audio
16:00:01 <Zakim> + +1.408.772.aaaa
16:00:07 <jernoble> Zakim: aaaa is me
16:00:12 <jernoble> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:00:12 <Zakim> +jernoble; got it
16:00:38 <jernoble> Zakim, why you no understand colons?
16:00:38 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, jernoble.
16:01:30 <olivier> re- agenda, the issues I was suggesting we tackle were actually https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17339 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17366 and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17378
16:01:46 <chrislowis> Zakim, what's the code
16:01:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'what's the code', chrislowis
16:01:48 <chrislowis> Zakim, what's the code?
16:01:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 28346 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chrislowis
16:01:54 <Zakim> +gmandyam\
16:02:42 <Zakim> +??P14
16:02:47 <chrislowis> Zakim, P14 is me
16:02:47 <Zakim> sorry, chrislowis, I do not recognize a party named 'P14'
16:02:50 <chrislowis> Zakim, ??P14 is me
16:02:50 <Zakim> +chrislowis; got it
16:02:51 <gmandyam> gmandyam has joined #audio
16:02:55 <olivier> zakim, chrislowis also has me
16:02:55 <Zakim> +olivier; got it
16:03:17 <chrislowis> zakim, who's on the call?
16:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Mozilla], jernoble, gmandyam, chrislowis
16:03:18 <Zakim> chrislowis has chrislowis, olivier
16:03:45 <olivier> zakim, [Mozilla] has ehsan
16:03:45 <Zakim> +ehsan; got it
16:04:16 <olivier> agenda?
16:06:33 <chrislowis> shepazu: thanks.
16:07:54 <olivier> chrislowis: convening
16:07:59 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 1
16:07:59 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Review of action items -  https://www.w3.org/2011/audio/track/actions/open" taken up [from olivier]
16:08:04 <padenot> padenot has joined #audio
16:08:15 <olivier> https://www.w3.org/2011/audio/track/actions/open
16:08:22 <olivier> chrislowis: just want to review actions
16:09:03 <gmandyam> +q
16:09:24 <olivier> olivier: moving to close ACTION-59
16:09:27 <olivier> gmandyam: agree
16:09:51 <olivier> Close ACTION-59
16:09:51 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-59 Talk to webrtc chairs, see what their perspective is on web audio API.
16:09:54 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
16:09:57 <gmandyam> zakim, ack gmandyam
16:09:57 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:11:04 <olivier> chrislowis: wondering about ACTION-47
16:11:20 <olivier> shepazu: there was a reply off the record
16:11:46 <olivier> ... OpenAL was done in spirit of open source and implementations distributed in LGPL
16:12:21 <olivier> ... most people involved at the time are now gone
16:12:28 <olivier> chrislowis: do you think we need to take that any further?
16:12:43 <olivier> shepazu: we'd need to refine exactly what we are looking for from them
16:12:53 <olivier> ... maybe have a discussion about this at some point
16:13:37 <colinbdclark> colinbdclark has joined #audio
16:14:08 <olivier> ACTION: olivier to create a bugzilla issue to look into how web audio relates to openAL, whether we need to dig deeper re- IPR
16:14:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Create a bugzilla issue to look into how web audio relates to openAL, whether we need to dig deeper re- IPR [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2013-08-08].
16:14:15 <olivier> Close ACTION-47
16:14:15 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-47 Reach out to OpenAL folks to get firm commitment on IP status of OpenAL..
16:14:50 <olivier> chrislowis: looking at a group of action items from May related to OfflineAudioContext
16:15:31 <olivier> ehsan: there is general agreement on what we want the API to look like
16:15:44 <olivier> chrislowis: I think we can close these and track any detail on bugzilla
16:16:18 <jussi> jussi has joined #audio
16:16:29 <olivier> Close ACTION-61
16:16:30 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-61 Ask Ehsan to create a patch to the spec for the changes..
16:16:33 <olivier> Close ACTION-62
16:16:33 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-62 Propose idea for OfflineAudioContext to list.
16:16:34 <olivier> Close ACTION-63
16:16:34 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-63 Will reply to Chris's proposed changes to OfflineAudioContext with updated WebIDL..
16:16:49 <Zakim> +??P21
16:16:57 <olivier> ACTION-64 is still pending
16:17:16 <olivier> zakim, close agendum 1
16:17:16 <Zakim> agendum 1, Review of action items -  https://www.w3.org/2011/audio/track/actions/open, closed
16:17:18 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:17:18 <Zakim> 2. Web audio API - Issue to close - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17374 [from olivier]
16:17:25 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 2
16:17:25 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Web audio API - Issue to close - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17374" taken up [from olivier]
16:18:33 <colinbdclark_> colinbdclark_ has joined #audio
16:18:46 <Zakim> +??P22
16:19:03 <olivier> olivier: explains https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17374
16:19:12 <chrislowis> Zakim, mute ??P22
16:19:12 <Zakim> ??P22 should now be muted
16:19:21 <jussi> Zakim, ??P21 is me
16:19:21 <Zakim> +jussi; got it
16:19:21 <olivier> ... will apply the patch to remove these sections if there is no objection
16:19:45 <olivier> ehsan: fine with that
16:19:49 <jernoble> jernoble has joined #audio
16:19:50 <padenot> Zakim: ??P22 is me
16:19:55 <olivier> chrislowis: will double-check with editor and go ahead
16:20:02 <colinbdclark_> colinbdclark_ has joined #audio
16:20:02 <olivier> zakim, close agendum 2
16:20:02 <Zakim> agendum 2, Web audio API - Issue to close - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17374, closed
16:20:04 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:20:04 <Zakim> 3. Web audio API - Issue to close - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20681 [from olivier]
16:20:08 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 3
16:20:08 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Web audio API - Issue to close - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20681" taken up [from olivier]
16:20:49 <chrislowis> padenot: I muted you, your line was very noisy.
16:21:01 <chrislowis> padenot: Add yourself to the queue if you'd like to speak.
16:21:06 <padenot> chrislowis: thanks, I have a sketchy setup here
16:21:15 <chrislowis> padenot: no problem.
16:21:34 <olivier> olivier: wondering if we need more work on units
16:21:52 <olivier> ehsan: would rather have crogers in this conversation
16:23:07 <gmandyam> +q
16:23:15 <chrislowis> ack gmandyam
16:23:29 <olivier> olivier: crogers on the record as saying he's ok with openal-inspired undefined unit
16:23:47 <olivier> gmandyam: don't think openAL is the best reference here
16:24:03 <olivier> ... I think we defined units for a lot of other web apis
16:24:11 <olivier> ... will write comment on irc too
16:24:24 <olivier> chrislowis: want to add comment on bugzilla too
16:24:32 <olivier> zakim, close agendum 3
16:24:32 <Zakim> agendum 3, Web audio API - Issue to close - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20681, closed
16:24:35 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:24:35 <Zakim> 4. Web Audio API - Open Issues and bugs [from olivier]
16:24:38 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 4
16:24:38 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Web Audio API - Open Issues and bugs" taken up [from olivier]
16:25:12 <gmandyam> OpenAL is not a good model for deciding when to specify unit measures.  It is a native API, and developers many times make the assumption that there is variability in implementations (particularly for handheld devices).
16:25:36 <gmandyam> (cont.) Web developers will expect some level of consistency among implementations.
16:25:52 <olivier> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17339
16:25:55 <olivier> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17366
16:25:59 <olivier> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17378
16:27:05 <olivier> chrislowis: let's look at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17339 - De-zippering is not defined
16:27:24 <olivier> ... spec doesn't go far enough defining dezippering
16:27:42 <olivier> ... ehsan, any comment on how you've interpreted that in implementation
16:28:14 <olivier> ehsan: spec mentions smoothing for gain nodes, [scribe missed]
16:28:35 <olivier> ehsan: would have like to exactly how to implement this for each type of parameter
16:29:10 <olivier> ehsan: I believe that we don't do any dezippering in gain node
16:29:16 <olivier> ... it wasn't clear what we should be doing
16:29:48 <olivier> ... for delaynode, I think I looked at webkit source, ended up using similar value but think it should be in the spec
16:30:22 <olivier> ACTION: chrislowis to look into what dezippering in webkit was based on
16:30:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Look into what dezippering in webkit was based on [on Chris Lowis - due 2013-08-08].
16:30:48 <olivier> chrislowis: I will look at whether there is an accepted precedent or reference literature we can point to
16:31:05 <olivier> ... don't think this was added empirically for webkit, I'll try and find out what that is
16:31:33 <olivier> chrislowis: looking at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17366 - Oscillator types are not defined
16:32:00 <olivier> chrislowis: I don't think the definition is controversial
16:32:08 <olivier> ... and phase starts at 0 at time 0
16:32:37 <olivier> ehsan: I may be lacking necessary background
16:32:53 <olivier> ... finding the definition hard to understand
16:33:22 <olivier> ... don't think the definitions are very controversial
16:33:36 <olivier> ... but there could be different interpretations for phase
16:33:57 <olivier> chrislowis: we could say in spec that the implementation should support this kind of wave forms
16:34:09 <olivier> ... but how to generate them isn't really a solved problem
16:34:24 <olivier> ... I know the way webkit does is quite standard and complicated in how it avoids aliasing
16:34:33 <olivier> ... should we define mathematica ideal?
16:34:45 <olivier> ehsan: not sure where we should draw the line
16:35:22 <olivier> ... would prefer a spec that tries to define exactly the outcome
16:35:35 <olivier> ... that's my general preference but I understand this may not be ideal for audio
16:35:50 <olivier> q+
16:36:11 <olivier> ehsan: oscillatornode is the most underspecified node in the spec
16:36:19 <olivier> ... it has made it difficult to implement
16:36:42 <gmandyam> +q
16:36:47 <jussi> jussi has joined #audio
16:37:46 <chrislowis> ack gmandyam
16:37:46 <olivier> olivier: will make it a high priority in bugzilla... don't have a perfect solution either
16:37:49 <chrislowis> ack olivier
16:37:50 <olivier> q- me
16:38:27 <olivier> gmandyam: in practice there will be cases where waveform diverges from mathematical definition
16:38:35 <shepazu> q+
16:38:37 <olivier> ... should we add some language such as "ideally"
16:38:49 <olivier> ... so that developers don't expect a perfect level of precision
16:39:01 <olivier> q+ to wonder if this should be a SHOULD?
16:39:40 <olivier> chrislowis: reminds me of discussion about biquadfilternode, we found this reference doc which would be a possible reference guide for implementors
16:39:44 <chrislowis> ack shepazu
16:39:46 <olivier> ack shepazu
16:40:01 <olivier> shepazu: want to share experience with SVG
16:40:24 <olivier> ... very similar situation with graphics experts defining the spec and use conventions from the industry
16:40:54 <olivier> ... second wave of implementors were not experts in graphics and so we had very similar pain points with things left undefined
16:41:04 <olivier> ... made it hard to create interoperable implementations
16:41:18 <olivier> ... web developers were very unsatisfied with variations in implementations
16:41:42 <olivier> ... and I suspect that they would find it equally unsatisfied with audio rendering
16:41:49 <olivier> ... we should keep in mind what expectations are
16:42:21 <olivier> ... so I think more definitions could be helpful to match developer expectations
16:42:47 <olivier> q- me
16:43:17 <olivier> chrislowis: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17378 - AudioBufferSourceNode.playbackRate not strictly defined
16:44:36 <olivier> ehsan: right now the way implementation work is that negative playback rate are interpreted as playing backward
16:44:49 <olivier> ... there are a number of details of how resampling is achieved
16:45:48 <olivier> chrislowis: is this an urgent or important one to solve?
16:46:08 <olivier> ehsan: there is at least one demo relying on it
16:46:27 <olivier> ... this is definitely a concept that has a correspondence in the real world
16:46:42 <olivier> q+ to suggest a patch at least defining effect of negative values
16:47:03 <olivier> chrislowis: the question of how we handle resampling will come up again
16:47:07 <olivier> ack me
16:47:07 <Zakim> olivier, you wanted to suggest a patch at least defining effect of negative values
16:48:02 <ehsan> olivier: we seem to have lost you
16:48:24 <ehsan> chrislowis: olivier: are you on the call?
16:48:35 <chrislowis> ehsan: seems like it's at your end?
16:48:39 <ehsan> could be
16:48:42 <ehsan> let me redial in
16:49:10 <olivier> chrislowis: will put a call out on the ML to ask for a volunteer to suggest patch for 17378
16:49:28 <Zakim> +[Mozilla.a]
16:49:37 <olivier> zakim, close agendum 4
16:49:37 <Zakim> agendum 4, Web Audio API - Open Issues and bugs, closed
16:49:38 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:49:38 <Zakim> 5. Any other business [from olivier]
16:49:47 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 5
16:49:47 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Any other business" taken up [from olivier]
16:50:48 <olivier> chrislowis: Any Other Business?™
16:51:08 <olivier> zakim, close agendum 5
16:51:08 <Zakim> agendum 5, Any other business, closed
16:51:09 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:51:09 <Zakim> 6. Next meeting [from olivier]
16:51:24 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 6
16:51:24 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Next meeting" taken up [from olivier]
16:51:33 <olivier> olivier: no objection for next meeting in 2 weeks?
16:51:37 <olivier> [no objection]
16:52:19 <olivier> chrislowis: meeting adjourned
16:52:30 <Zakim> -jernoble
16:52:32 <Zakim> -gmandyam
16:52:59 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:52:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/01-audio-minutes.html olivier
16:53:01 <Zakim> -jussi
16:53:03 <Zakim> -chrislowis
16:53:05 <Zakim> -[Mozilla.a]
16:53:06 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
16:53:10 <Zakim> -??P22
16:54:12 <olivier> Present: chrislowis, olivier, shepazu, gmandyam, jernoble, ehsan, jussi
16:54:19 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/01-audio-minutes.html olivier
16:54:36 <olivier> Regrets: Chris Wilson
16:54:43 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/01-audio-minutes.html olivier
16:58:54 <olivier> zakim, bye
16:58:54 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.408.772.aaaa, jernoble, gmandyam\, chrislowis, olivier, ehsan, Doug_Schepers, jussi, [Mozilla]
16:58:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #audio
16:58:58 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/01-audio-minutes.html olivier
16:59:12 <olivier> RRSAgent, bye
16:59:12 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/01-audio-actions.rdf :
16:59:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: olivier to create a bugzilla issue to look into how web audio relates to openAL, whether we need to dig deeper re- IPR [1]
16:59:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/01-audio-irc#T16-14-08
16:59:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chrislowis to look into what dezippering in webkit was based on [2]
16:59:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/01-audio-irc#T16-30-22