IRC log of pointerevents on 2013-07-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/30-pointerevents-irc

15:01:22 [Zakim]

+Art_Barstow

15:01:23 [smaug]

Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay

15:01:23 [Zakim]

+Olli_Pettay; got it

15:01:33 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make log Public

15:01:38 [smaug]

Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay

15:01:38 [Zakim]

ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay

15:01:44 [ArtB]

ScribeNick: ArtB

15:01:44 [ArtB]

Scribe: Art

15:01:44 [ArtB]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JulSep/0005.html

15:01:44 [ArtB]

Chair: Art

15:01:44 [ArtB]

Meeting: Pointer Events WG Voice Conference

15:01:50 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft.a]

15:01:52 [mbrubeck]

Zakim, I am Matt_Brubeck

15:01:52 [Zakim]

ok, mbrubeck, I now associate you with Matt_Brubeck

15:02:30 [Zakim]

+Cathy

15:02:43 [ArtB]

Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Jacob_Rossi, Asir_Vedamuthu, Cathy_Chan, Olli_Pettay

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15:03:23 [ArtB]

Present+ Scott_González

15:03:29 [ArtB]

Regrets: Rick_Byers

15:03:48 [ArtB]

Topic: Tweak agenda

15:03:54 [ArtB]

AB: Welcome back everyone ;-)!

15:04:16 [jrossi]

Congrats, Cathy!

15:04:27 [ArtB]

AB: I published a draft agenda yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JulSep/0005.html. Any change requests?

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15:05:07 [ArtB]

[ No change requests for the agenda ]

15:05:16 [Zakim]

+Doug_Schepers

15:05:16 [ArtB]

Topic: CR implementation status

15:05:26 [ArtB]

Present+ Doug_Schepers

15:05:34 [ArtB]

AB: let's talk about CR implementation status.

15:05:45 [ArtB]

AB: Rick submitted an update re Blink/Chrome http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JulSep/0007.html

15:06:33 [ArtB]

AB: Rick says a few weeks for touch-actions

15:06:48 [ArtB]

JR: and Rick said a few months before the impl is complete

15:07:23 [ArtB]

AS: the "few months" from Rick was about the touch-action-delay

15:07:46 [ArtB]

MB: re Firefox, a Microsoft person (?) submitted a Gecko patch

15:07:47 [mbrubeck]

Microsoft contributed patches to Gecko, currently being reviewed: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=822898

15:07:48 [mbrubeck]

http://msopentech.com/blog/2013/06/17/w3c-pointer-events-gains-further-web-momentum-with-patch-for-mozilla-firefox/

15:07:50 [ArtB]

… still a WIP

15:08:08 [ArtB]

OP: that is in my review queue

15:08:32 [ArtB]

… that patch was about the PE events and not the CSS property

15:08:42 [ArtB]

… but I expect that person to implement that too

15:08:59 [mbrubeck]

The contributor, Oleg Romashin ("romaxa") is a long-time Firefox developer.

15:09:02 [jrossi]

Oleg Romashin <Oleg.Romashin@microsoft.com>

15:09:24 [ArtB]

AB: thanks Matt and Olli

15:09:44 [ArtB]

OP: I think there needs to be some work on mouse and pointer events interaction

15:09:55 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:09:56 [ArtB]

… we need some tests to work on that

15:10:03 [ArtB]

… Oleg is working on that

15:10:19 [ArtB]

MB: Wes Johnson is interested in doing some work too

15:10:26 [ArtB]

… he mentioned that to Oleg

15:10:31 [sangwhan]

Zakim, IPcaller is me

15:10:31 [Zakim]

+sangwhan; got it

15:10:52 [ArtB]

AB: is there a timeframe for FF/Gecko?

15:10:54 [ArtB]

MB: no

15:11:11 [ArtB]

OP: no, events stuff is "easy" but the CSS property is not

15:11:22 [ArtB]

Present+ Sangwhan_Moon

15:11:47 [ArtB]

AB: Scott, any news from jQuery?

15:12:25 [ArtB]

SG: working on Polymer. The goal is to use Polymer and not our own implementation

15:12:52 [sangwhan]

Opera 14+ is a ditto of Rick's status update

15:12:58 [ArtB]

AB: Jacob, Asir, what about IE?

15:13:08 [ArtB]

JR: we release IE11 Preview a few weeks ago

15:13:26 [ArtB]

… it includes updated MSPointerEvents

15:13:34 [ArtB]

… it is still member-prefixed

15:13:47 [ArtB]

… We will ship IE 11 without prefixes

15:14:02 [ArtB]

… we will announce this on our blog later this week

15:14:11 [ArtB]

… We think the compat hit will be minimal

15:14:36 [ArtB]

AB: when can we expect that to hit the street?

15:14:46 [ArtB]

JR: we don't have an announced date

15:14:57 [ArtB]

… other than we expect IE11 to be in Windows 8.1

15:15:38 [ArtB]

AB: thanks Jacob

15:15:41 [jrossi]

Windows 8.1 will be available before the end of the calendar year

15:16:00 [ArtB]

JR: one thing to note is that now we don't expect to build support for the constructor

15:16:18 [ArtB]

… we need to do that across the board

15:16:24 [ArtB]

… not clear if that will be in IE11

15:17:01 [ArtB]

DS: that's not a problem per se from the standarization PoV, but if that constructor is in the spec, we will need 2 impls that do support the constructor

15:17:07 [ArtB]

… Will we get that?

15:17:20 [ArtB]

JR: think it will be supported by Blink and WebKit

15:17:26 [mbrubeck]

s/WebKit/Firefox/

15:17:32 [ArtB]

OP: I expect us to support it in Gecko

15:17:39 [ArtB]

DS: ok, thanks

15:18:52 [ArtB]

AB: Sangwhan, what about Opera?

15:19:11 [ArtB]

SM: our impl will depend on Rick (Chromium's) work

15:19:32 [ArtB]

… Opera's Presto - it seems unlikely we will add PE support

15:19:49 [ArtB]

… unless there becomes lots of content that use it and we have an interop problem

15:20:31 [ArtB]

AS: so Opera's work depends on Chromium?

15:20:34 [ArtB]

SM: yes

15:20:47 [ArtB]

AS: what about Presto?

15:20:50 [sangwhan]

Bottom line is Opera's work now depends on Chromium

15:21:16 [sangwhan]

As the rendering engine is now using Blink starting from Opera (Mobile) 14+

15:21:38 [Zakim]

-sangwhan

15:21:45 [sangwhan]

Nothing else from Opera

15:21:53 [ArtB]

AB: any news about Polymer?

15:22:22 [ArtB]

SG: one place is a deviation is the touch-action attribute

15:22:30 [ArtB]

… they've done a lot of work to remove it

15:22:36 [ArtB]

… not sure where that stands now

15:22:43 [scott_gonzalez]

https://github.com/Polymer/PointerEvents/issues/92

15:23:01 [ArtB]

JR: Rick mentioned Polymer in his status report

15:23:02 [Zakim]

+??P27

15:23:29 [ArtB]

AB: anything about WebKit?

15:23:30 [sangwhan]

Zakim, ??P27 is me

15:23:30 [Zakim]

+sangwhan; got it

15:23:51 [ArtB]

… as I understand it, Microsoft submitted a patch for WebKit. Is that true?

15:23:58 [ArtB]

AS: our patches are all online

15:24:07 [ArtB]

… I don't have any new info

15:24:23 [ArtB]

AB: any other impl data to share?

15:24:38 [ArtB]

Topic: Test Suite status

15:24:46 [ArtB]

AB: the general topic is what needs to be done to make the test suite sufficient to test an implementation of the CR.

15:25:00 [asir]

s/what about Presto?/what did you say about Presto? Because I could not hear the full summary/

15:25:01 [ArtB]

AB: and, more specifically, I think it would be useful if we had an understanding about Who is going to do What and by When.

15:25:13 [ArtB]

AB: Matt proposed an overall testing process in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013AprJun/0167.html and earlier today I codified quite a bit of that in http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/Testing.

15:26:32 [ArtB]

AB: let's start with an inventory

15:26:46 [ArtB]

... We have Scott's pointerdown file as "approved" https://raw.github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/master/pointerevents/pointerdown.html so it is now mirrored and thus can be run directly in a browser via http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/pointerevents/

15:27:33 [ArtB]

AB: Last April, there were some TTWF submissions http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013AprJun/0092.html and they are not in the pointerevents repo https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/pointerevents

15:27:56 [ArtB]

AB: how do we get review on those submissions

15:28:55 [ArtB]

SM: those are put in new repos, they are not PRs

15:29:11 [ArtB]

MB: correct, they were created before we had the pointerevents repo

15:29:21 [ArtB]

SG: I can ask Dave to make a PR to the new repo

15:29:43 [scott_gonzalez]

https://github.com/dmethvin/pointerevents-test

15:29:46 [ArtB]

AB: that would be great; then we need PRs for the other submissions

15:30:21 [ArtB]

SG: I think Dave needs to do a merge and then after that is done to make a PR for the pointerevents repo

15:31:01 [ArtB]

ACTION: scott follow up with Dave to get a PR from the April TTWF to the pointerevents repo

15:31:01 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-44 - Follow up with Dave to get a PR from the April TTWF to the pointerevents repo [on Scott González - due 2013-08-06].

15:31:10 [ArtB]

SM: please let me know when that PR is made

15:31:12 [ArtB]

SG: OK

15:32:58 [ArtB]

AB: re notifications, I think it would be useful for people to send an email to the list after they submit a PR

15:33:36 [ArtB]

AB: do we need to chase the other submitters or is Dave doing that?

15:33:52 [ArtB]

SG: Dave's PR will include a merge of the other submissions

15:34:31 [ArtB]

AB: one of the next Qs is about coverage/breath and then depth

15:34:40 [mbrubeck]

sangwhan: Where/who should I ask for write access to that repo?

15:34:52 [ArtB]

… wrt coverage, the Test Assertion table is a good way to get a handle on that

15:35:02 [ArtB]

AB: Cathy, is the Test Assertions table complete? http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/TestAssertions

15:35:10 [jrossi]

mbrubeck: Mike Smith gave me my write access

15:35:27 [ArtB]

CC: there could be a couple of sections that still need some work

15:35:33 [sangwhan]

mbrubeck: Tobie/Mike/Robin

15:35:34 [ArtB]

… f.ex. the CSS property

15:35:42 [ArtB]

… other than that, I think I'm done

15:36:50 [ArtB]

AB: so one Q is if the TAs are sufficient to qualify an impl re the CR

15:37:02 [ArtB]

JR: I think we now have sufficient breadth

15:37:13 [ArtB]

… the feature coverage seems adequate

15:37:20 [ArtB]

… The depth Q is different

15:37:25 [ArtB]

… I would need to do a path

15:37:32 [ArtB]

… but I think what we have is pretty good

15:37:35 [jrossi]

http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/#pointerevents

15:37:40 [ArtB]

… Microsoft will contribute some tests

15:37:50 [ArtB]

… I need to prep then and create a PR

15:37:57 [ArtB]

… and that will cover more assertions

15:38:40 [ArtB]

SM: re TouchEvents, there is some variability when running them, hope we can do better with PointerEvents

15:39:09 [ArtB]

SG: agree we should be more clear here, especially why some tests are not run

15:39:52 [ArtB]

… we need to describe what we expect to happen and then what actually happens

15:40:32 [scott_gonzalez]

If possible, we should generate a failing test if we can detect that a block of event assertions never ran.

15:40:43 [ArtB]

AB: Jacob, when can we expect those tests?

15:40:50 [ArtB]

JR: within the next two weeks.

15:40:53 [scott_gonzalez]

But we may not be able to reliably determine that based on differing pointer types.

15:41:22 [scott_gonzalez]

At a minimum, we should have a short description of what we expected to happen so the tester can easily determine if all assertions have run.

15:41:32 [ArtB]

AB: thanks Jacob

15:41:44 [ArtB]

… can you think of any features that you don't test?

15:41:56 [ArtB]

JR: not sure but perhaps the touch-action property

15:42:27 [ArtB]

… I will update the wiki with our tests and that will help with understanding which features we have coverage

15:42:47 [ArtB]

SG: the Test Status data isn't particuarly useful

15:42:55 [ArtB]

… they need to be changed to more useful status

15:43:01 [ArtB]

… like "Approved"

15:43:12 [ArtB]

AB: +1 Scott!

15:43:47 [ArtB]

AS: re approval, is there a way they can approved in August?

15:43:59 [ArtB]

SG: all of the tests, or those with PRs

15:44:09 [ArtB]

AS: I mean all of the coverage we need

15:44:34 [ArtB]

SG: I don't think I will be able to review everything by August

15:45:00 [ArtB]

… based on history, not sure we will have all of the tests by August

15:46:03 [ArtB]

AB: the minimum req is to have at least one person review each test

15:46:15 [ArtB]

… and we should certaily strive to do better than that

15:46:28 [ArtB]

… and avoid the "fox guarding the chicken coop"

15:47:04 [ArtB]

AS: reviewing tests can be really useful, especially for the implementers

15:48:41 [ArtB]

SM: how do we handle duplicates?

15:48:55 [ArtB]

SG: for Dave's PR, we will take care of that

15:49:09 [ArtB]

… unless a test Seattle is more comprehensive

15:49:32 [ArtB]

SM: looking at the IE tests, they could be covered by Seattle tests

15:49:41 [ArtB]

… who is going to take care of duplicates

15:50:41 [ArtB]

JR: it could be helpful to review our submissions versus the Seattle tests

15:50:58 [ArtB]

… I think it's OK for PRs to include dups

15:51:15 [ArtB]

… and then we remove the dups before being merged to master

15:51:41 [ArtB]

SG: perhaps it would be best if Dave waits until Microsoft submits its tests

15:52:23 [ArtB]

… if the Seattle tests overlap IE, Dave could just ignore the Seattle tests

15:52:56 [ArtB]

AB: so Scott will ask Dave to block until Jacob submits his tests. Is this correct?

15:52:58 [ArtB]

SG: yes

15:53:23 [ArtB]

AB: so I think we have a good plan then

15:53:50 [ArtB]

… and Jacob is going to update the TA table re the Microsoft tests

15:54:07 [jrossi]

Yes, Cathy's table was a big help!

15:54:12 [asir]

Indeed!!!

15:54:21 [ArtB]

AB: the TA table is really great Cathy

15:54:28 [ArtB]

AB: anything else on testing for today?

15:54:31 [ArtB]

[ No ]

15:54:35 [ArtB]

Topic: AoB

15:54:42 [ArtB]

AB: anything else for today?

15:54:47 [ArtB]

AS: when is the next call?

15:56:00 [ArtB]

AB: is the current process working?

15:56:14 [ArtB]

AS: let's meet after Jacob submits his tests

15:56:26 [ArtB]

AB: that sounds like a good working assumption

15:56:46 [ArtB]

AB: is the current meeting frequency working OK?

15:56:52 [ArtB]

DS: I'd leave it to you Art

15:57:08 [asir]

+1

15:57:17 [ArtB]

AB: ok, we'll continue along the way we are going

15:58:29 [ArtB]

DS: I went to OSCON last week in PDX, PointerEvents was a topic

15:58:49 [ArtB]

… and there is an upcoming conf with Jacob on a PE panel

15:59:04 [ArtB]

s/upcoming conf/HTML DevConf/

15:59:38 [jrossi]

http://html5devconf.com/

15:59:43 [Zakim]

-asir

15:59:44 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

15:59:46 [Zakim]

-Olli_Pettay

15:59:46 [ArtB]

AB: meeting adjourned

15:59:46 [Zakim]

-sangwhan

15:59:47 [Zakim]

-Doug_Schepers

15:59:51 [Zakim]

-Cathy

15:59:52 [Zakim]

-Art_Barstow

16:00:01 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

16:00:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/30-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB

16:00:02 [Zakim]

- +1.717.578.aaaa

16:00:03 [Zakim]

RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended

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Attendees were +1.717.578.aaaa, [Microsoft], Matt_Brubeck, Art_Barstow, Olli_Pettay, Cathy, Doug_Schepers, sangwhan, asir

16:02:56 [ArtB]

zakim, bye

16:02:56 [Zakim]

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