IRC log of eval on 2013-07-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:52:51 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #eval
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/18-eval-irc
- 13:52:53 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 13:52:53 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #eval
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- Zakim, this will be 3825
- 13:52:55 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
- 13:52:56 [trackbot]
- Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
- 13:52:56 [trackbot]
- Date: 18 July 2013
- 13:57:55 [Zakim]
- WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
- 13:58:02 [Zakim]
- +Shadi
- 13:58:38 [ericvelleman]
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- 13:59:09 [shadi]
- agenda+ New Editor Draft, DoC and survey
- 13:59:27 [shadi]
- agenda+ Rewrite of section 1.b
- 13:59:28 [shadi]
- agenda+ Parameters of the sample size
- 13:59:39 [shadi]
- agenda+ Planning of next meetings
- 13:59:46 [shadi]
- chair: Eric
- 13:59:47 [Zakim]
- +??P8
- 14:00:04 [shadi]
- Regrets: Detlev, Kathy, Tim
- 14:00:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, ??P8 is me
- 14:00:08 [Zakim]
- +MartijnHoutepen; got it
- 14:00:40 [Liz]
- Liz has joined #eval
- 14:00:55 [Zakim]
- + +31.30.239.aaaa
- 14:01:06 [ericvelleman]
- zakim, aaaa is me
- 14:01:06 [Zakim]
- +ericvelleman; got it
- 14:01:12 [Zakim]
- + +1.301.975.aabb
- 14:01:37 [Liz]
- zakim, aabb is Liz
- 14:01:37 [Zakim]
- +Liz; got it
- 14:02:12 [Vivienne]
- Vivienne has joined #eval
- 14:03:10 [korn]
- korn has joined #eval
- 14:03:20 [Zakim]
- + +1.517.432.aacc
- 14:03:21 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:03:26 [Vivienne]
- Zakim, IPcaller is me
- 14:03:26 [Zakim]
- +Vivienne; got it
- 14:03:47 [shadi]
- scribe: shadi
- 14:03:58 [Sarah_Swierenga]
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- 14:04:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
- zakim, please mute me
- 14:04:08 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 14:04:29 [shadi]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2013Jul/0037.html
- 14:04:41 [shadi]
- Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq10/
- 14:04:41 [shadi]
- Editor Draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/methodology/
- 14:04:41 [shadi]
- DoC: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20130226
- 14:05:02 [Zakim]
- + +1.703.861.aadd
- 14:05:27 [shadi]
- EV: circulated documents, including new Editor Draft and survey
- 14:05:36 [shadi]
- zakim, aacc is Sarah_Swierenga
- 14:05:36 [Zakim]
- +Sarah_Swierenga; got it
- 14:05:43 [shadi]
- zakim, aadd is korn
- 14:05:43 [Zakim]
- +korn; got it
- 14:05:51 [Ryladog]
- Ryladog has joined #eval
- 14:06:09 [shadi]
- ...comments addressed in batches
- 14:06:09 [Zakim]
- +Peter_Korn
- 14:06:30 [shadi]
- ...please complete survey by next Tuesday
- 14:06:32 [korn]
- Zakim, aadd is NOT korn...
- 14:06:32 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'aadd is NOT korn', korn
- 14:06:45 [shadi]
- zakim, korn is Ryladog
- 14:06:45 [Zakim]
- +Ryladog; got it
- 14:06:53 [shadi]
- zakim, where is 703?
- 14:06:53 [Zakim]
- North American dialing code 1.703 is Virginia
- 14:06:56 [MoeKraft]
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- 14:07:13 [Zakim]
- +MoeKraft
- 14:07:42 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:07:47 [shadi]
- ...still have a number of large issues that need further discussion
- 14:08:08 [Vivienne]
- I haven't had time to look at the edited draft or other documents yet
- 14:08:23 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- Sorry, I haven't either.... too many fires for me, too.
- 14:08:39 [Vivienne]
- I'll set the time aside and make sure that I do it
- 14:10:13 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- i'll give it a try for next Tuesday, too
- 14:11:31 [shadi]
- EV: survey links to the corresponding sections in the Editor Draft
- 14:11:56 [shadi]
- zakim, take up next
- 14:11:56 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "New Editor Draft, DoC and survey" taken up [from shadi]
- 14:12:07 [shadi]
- zakim, close agendum 1
- 14:12:07 [Zakim]
- agendum 1, New Editor Draft, DoC and survey, closed
- 14:12:08 [Zakim]
- I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 14:12:08 [Zakim]
- 2. Rewrite of section 1.b [from shadi]
- 14:12:09 [shadi]
- zakim, take up next
- 14:12:10 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Rewrite of section 1.b" taken up [from shadi]
- 14:12:30 [ericvelleman]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130712#step1b
- 14:12:33 [shadi]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2013Jul/0035.html
- 14:14:07 [shadi]
- EV: tried to explain in the email
- 14:14:27 [shadi]
- ...propose to change the title of the section
- 14:14:32 [shadi]
- ...the goal of the evaluation is set by the document
- 14:14:46 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:14:52 [shadi]
- ...not really the goal being determined here
- 14:15:04 [shadi]
- PK: maybe "purpose" or "focus" instead?
- 14:15:32 [ericvelleman]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130712#audience
- 14:15:34 [shadi]
- ...assumption is that there are multiple usecases
- 14:15:47 [shadi]
- ...don't want to discourage use in other settings
- 14:16:03 [shadi]
- ...for example product team during development
- 14:16:07 [shadi]
- q+
- 14:16:27 [shadi]
- ...to say the only goal is full conformance evaluation would be a mistakre
- 14:19:40 [shadi]
- SAZ: think the document describes a process for conformance evaluation
- 14:20:05 [shadi]
- ...like the terms "purpose" or "focus"
- 14:20:34 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q+
- 14:20:40 [shadi]
- PK: seems we are not sufficiently expressing the dichtomy between absolute conformance
- 14:20:49 [shadi]
- ...and levels of conformance or performance
- 14:21:27 [shadi]
- EV: have purposes already listed in the introduction section
- 14:21:57 [shadi]
- ...would be nice to get to a minimum requirement that is flexible
- 14:22:06 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:22:12 [shadi]
- ack me
- 14:23:52 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack me
- 14:24:12 [shadi]
- SAZ: agree on dichotomy issue, but this is separate
- 14:24:35 [shadi]
- ...discussion not tying back into this section
- 14:24:45 [shadi]
- MH: agree with Shadi
- 14:24:53 [shadi]
- ...not best title for this section
- 14:25:19 [MartijnHoutepen]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:25:19 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 14:25:27 [shadi]
- ...purpose and goal should be in abstract or introduction
- 14:25:32 [shadi]
- PK: not commenting on title per se
- 14:25:46 [Vivienne]
- q+
- 14:25:55 [shadi]
- EV: agree, risk of what is sometimes understood by "conformance"
- 14:26:27 [shadi]
- PK: maybe section explaining what we mean by "conformance"
- 14:26:28 [shadi]
- ...as the extent to which, or something like that
- 14:26:32 [Ryladog]
- +1
- 14:26:32 [Liz]
- +1
- 14:26:35 [shadi]
- q+
- 14:26:44 [shadi]
- ack viv
- 14:26:47 [ericvelleman]
- +1
- 14:26:56 [shadi]
- VC: like the way Peter put this
- 14:27:27 [shadi]
- ...asked often by clients if they conform and what they need to fix it
- 14:27:27 [korn]
- "Representative Conformance"?
- 14:27:52 [shadi]
- ...then need to explain that we only evaluate a sample
- 14:28:11 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- I agree with Peter and Vivienne on making sure we clearly define 'conformance' - 'representative conformance' would be a term, but maybe appropriate for our document/approach
- 14:28:27 [shadi]
- ...different people have different understanding of what conformance is
- 14:28:32 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:28:52 [shadi]
- ...several other terms that also need explanation
- 14:29:27 [shadi]
- ...to avoid legal issues
- 14:29:34 [shadi]
- ...we put disclaimer on our evaluations
- 14:29:40 [korn]
- q?
- 14:29:41 [shadi]
- ...to explain this
- 14:29:59 [korn]
- q+ to say that this reminds me of home purchase pre-inspections (e.g. for termites).
- 14:31:27 [shadi]
- SAZ: agree with Peter's suggestion
- 14:31:35 [shadi]
- ...believe we even have the wording in the document
- 14:31:50 [shadi]
- ...but just not pulled out and clearly highlighted
- 14:32:11 [korn]
- +1 to the new section.
- 14:32:31 [Vivienne]
- +1 from me too
- 14:32:31 [MartijnHoutepen]
- +1
- 14:32:48 [Liz]
- +1 to add a new section on conformance.
- 14:32:52 [korn]
- q+
- 14:32:58 [shadi]
- q-
- 14:33:10 [shadi]
- EV: strong support, will add to document
- 14:33:27 [shadi]
- ...but different from our initial discussion
- 14:33:55 [shadi]
- PK: on Step 1.b, agree that title does not match the text
- 14:34:04 [shadi]
- ...text is about report results
- 14:34:13 [shadi]
- ...all about how much detail you want
- 14:34:27 [shadi]
- ...think need to be synched
- 14:35:03 [ericvelleman]
- So instead of branching out the current section 1.b. we narrow it down to scoping additional wishes by evaluation commissioners that would normally not fall within the minimum requirements for WCAG-EM. This will make the methodology more flexible.
- 14:35:10 [shadi]
- EV: thinking of it as "extra things that a commissioner asks for beyond the minimum of what you would do to evaluate the website"
- 14:35:17 [Vivienne]
- q+
- 14:35:23 [korn]
- q-
- 14:35:29 [shadi]
- ack viv
- 14:37:04 [shadi]
- EV: think goal is to do a conformance evaluation
- 14:37:30 [shadi]
- ...this document shold define the minimum requirements to do so
- 14:37:55 [shadi]
- ...evaluation commissioner may want more information than that minimum
- 14:38:27 [shadi]
- ...these additions need to be in the scope at first
- 14:38:28 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q+
- 14:38:41 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack me
- 14:39:27 [shadi]
- MH: maybe add this information in the "definition of scope" section?
- 14:39:28 [shadi]
- q+
- 14:39:53 [korn]
- q+
- 14:39:59 [shadi]
- ...could work with the basic report
- 14:40:11 [shadi]
- ...and extended based on the request
- 14:40:15 [MartijnHoutepen]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:40:15 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 14:40:27 [shadi]
- ack me
- 14:42:50 [shadi]
- SAZ: think relates to the depth rather than the breadth
- 14:43:11 [shadi]
- ...it is about detail rather than area scope
- 14:43:34 [shadi]
- PK: think may need a new 1.x section
- 14:43:46 [shadi]
- ...one that describes scope and detail
- 14:44:01 [shadi]
- ...and one about goal
- 14:44:02 [shadi]
- q+
- 14:44:05 [shadi]
- q- k
- 14:45:06 [korn]
- q+
- 14:45:30 [shadi]
- ack me
- 14:45:32 [Vivienne]
- q+
- 14:45:48 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q- k
- 14:45:56 [shadi]
- SAZ: how does this impact the remaining steps as opposed to the detail?
- 14:46:27 [shadi]
- PK: in a regression test, I will look at previous sample and add new pages
- 14:46:40 [shadi]
- ...that purpose impacts the sampling technique
- 14:47:05 [shadi]
- ...for development evaluation, I will prioritize areas of development
- 14:47:13 [shadi]
- ...so it influences the scope
- 14:49:27 [shadi]
- SAZ: think have something on "re-testing" in sampling
- 14:49:57 [shadi]
- ...wonder if current "Baic Report", "Detailed Report", and "In-Depth Analysis" works?
- 14:50:27 [shadi]
- PK: "Basic Report" to me is what I can give to a senior executive
- 14:50:38 [shadi]
- ..."Detailed" contains more about the issues
- 14:51:27 [shadi]
- ...and "In-Depth" is very useful for website owners and developers who are new to accessibility
- 14:51:51 [korn]
- q-
- 14:52:02 [shadi]
- ...depends on if you are looking for consultancy on "what is wrong", or on "what is wrong and how to fix it"
- 14:52:06 [shadi]
- ack viv
- 14:52:35 [shadi]
- VC: think need separate sections for goal and reporting
- 14:52:48 [shadi]
- ...also have other extras that we sometimes offer
- 14:53:06 [shadi]
- ...for example testing with users if the client wants
- 14:53:35 [shadi]
- ...don't offer three levels of reporting but mostly do "In-Depth"
- 14:53:43 [shadi]
- ...that is the service we offer
- 14:54:02 [shadi]
- ...but like the suggestion of "additions requested by the commissioner"
- 14:55:03 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:55:07 [Vivienne]
- I think we need to remember the difference between the purpose of the document and the purpose of the evaluation
- 14:56:49 [shadi]
- SAZ: hearing agreement that title and text are a mismatch
- 14:57:00 [ericvelleman]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2013Jul/0028.html
- 14:57:24 [shadi]
- ...also that "level of detail" seems to be one axis
- 14:57:35 [shadi]
- ...then also "additional services" like testing with users or providing repair suggestions
- 14:57:47 [shadi]
- zakim, take up next
- 14:57:47 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "Parameters of the sample size" taken up [from shadi]
- 14:57:59 [korn]
- Eric - I would add to the parameter list any additional requests from the eval commissioner
- 14:58:26 [shadi]
- EV: looking for parameters that influence the sample size
- 14:58:32 [shadi]
- ...please send feedback on this
- 14:59:32 [shadi]
- zakim, take up next
- 14:59:32 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. "Planning of next meetings" taken up [from shadi]
- 14:59:42 [shadi]
- EV: holiday season
- 15:00:11 [shadi]
- ...intending to meet next two weeks
- 15:00:27 [Zakim]
- -Peter_Korn
- 15:00:31 [korn]
- korn has left #eval
- 15:00:38 [shadi]
- [25.7 and 1.8]
- 15:00:39 [Liz]
- bye
- 15:00:41 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack me
- 15:00:43 [Vivienne]
- bye
- 15:00:44 [shadi]
- ...then two weeks break
- 15:00:45 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- I will be presenting at HCII next week and then will be on vacation the following week. Good luck in the next couple of meetings!
- 15:00:46 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- bye
- 15:00:46 [Zakim]
- -MartijnHoutepen
- 15:00:48 [Zakim]
- -Ryladog
- 15:00:49 [Zakim]
- -Liz
- 15:00:50 [Zakim]
- -MoeKraft
- 15:00:51 [Zakim]
- -Vivienne
- 15:00:56 [shadi]
- [8.8 and 15.8]
- 15:01:00 [Zakim]
- -Sarah_Swierenga
- 15:01:01 [ericvelleman]
- ericvelleman has left #eval
- 15:01:02 [Zakim]
- -ericvelleman
- 15:01:07 [shadi]
- trackbot, end meeting
- 15:01:07 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 15:01:07 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been Shadi, MartijnHoutepen, +31.30.239.aaaa, ericvelleman, +1.301.975.aabb, Liz, +1.517.432.aacc, Vivienne, +1.703.861.aadd, Sarah_Swierenga,
- 15:01:10 [Zakim]
- ... Peter_Korn, Ryladog, MoeKraft
- 15:01:14 [Zakim]
- -Shadi
- 15:01:15 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 15:01:15 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/18-eval-minutes.html trackbot
- 15:01:15 [Zakim]
- WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
- 15:01:15 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Shadi, MartijnHoutepen, +31.30.239.aaaa, ericvelleman, +1.301.975.aabb, Liz, +1.517.432.aacc, Vivienne, +1.703.861.aadd, Sarah_Swierenga, Peter_Korn, Ryladog,
- 15:01:15 [Zakim]
- ... MoeKraft
- 15:01:16 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 15:01:16 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items