15:00:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:00:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-forms-irc
15:00:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:00:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
15:00:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:31 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:00:31 <trackbot> Date: 03 July 2013
15:00:52 <Steven_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Jul/0007.html
15:01:01 <Steven_> Steven_ has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Jul/0007
15:01:10 <Steven_> Regrets: Philip
15:01:46 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
15:01:53 <Zakim> +??P6
15:01:58 <Steven_> zakim, I am ?
15:01:58 <Zakim> +Steven_; got it
15:03:50 <Zakim> +ebruchez
15:07:49 <nvdbleek> zakim, code
15:07:49 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
15:07:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', nvdbleek
15:07:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:08:27 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
15:13:04 <Steven_> Topic: Coming calls
15:13:49 <Steven_> Steven: I'm on holiday from next week, until the 24tgh
15:14:00 <Steven_> ... I anticipate being on the call of the 24th
15:14:06 <Steven_> s/tgh/th/
15:18:28 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XPath_Expressions_Module#The_relevant.28.29_Function
15:18:55 <Steven_> Topic: ACTION-1933 - Suggest spec text for MIP functions
15:18:55 <Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Jul/0002.html
15:19:10 <Steven_> Erik: I had questions about the relevant and valid functions
15:20:03 <Steven_> "1. What should the default return values be when there are no selected items?"
15:22:45 <Steven_> ... what to do if the set is empty? Scala does TRUE
15:22:57 <ebruchez> scala> Seq[Int]() forall (_ < 10)
15:22:58 <ebruchez> res3: Boolean = true
15:23:01 <Steven_> Steven: My rule of thumb is TRUE for AND, and FALSE for OR
15:23:44 <ebruchez> scala> Seq[Int]() exists (_ < 10)
15:23:45 <ebruchez> res4: Boolean = false
15:25:18 <Steven_> Steven: In Maths, ∀ (for all) is a logical AND and the empty version returns true, while ∃ is a logical OR and returns FALSE for an empty set
15:26:22 <Steven_> ... I think we should use that rule
15:26:55 <Steven_> Erik: the idea of validity, the tree is valid if all nodes are valid, so it is an AND, so the default is true.
15:27:30 <Steven_> ... for relevance, I think the idea is the same, if any node is nonrelevant, then so the whole tree
15:27:36 <Steven_> ... how about readonly?
15:29:02 <Steven_> Nick: We have to be careful, because of the default for nodes
15:29:43 <Steven_> Erik: So readonly is OR. So default would be false.
15:30:31 <Steven_> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms20/#Model_Item_Property_Definitions
15:31:43 <Steven_> Steven: That table "all" means the default would be TRUE and "one" would mean the default would be FALSE
15:32:03 <Steven_> Erik: I think we can apply this logic to the functions
15:32:35 <Steven_> ... OK, so I will modify the definitions to reflect this
15:33:15 <Steven_> Erik: Question 2: 2. valid() and attributes
15:34:19 <Steven_> <price type="bar">10.42</price>
15:34:19 <Steven_> <bind ref="price" type="xs:decimal"/>
15:34:19 <Steven_> <bind ref="price/@type" constraint=". = 'a' or . = 'b'"/>
15:34:19 <Steven_> => valid(price) returns false()
15:34:34 <Steven_> Erik: Is this OK?
15:34:40 <Steven_> Steven: I think it is reasonable
15:35:03 <Steven_> Erik: We have a function that takes an extra flag
15:35:29 <Steven_> Steven: You can use an XPath function to get just the element value if that's what you mean.
15:35:55 <Steven_> ... I think we should take attributes into account
15:36:41 <Steven_> Nick: If a node is not readonly, but has an attribute that is readonly, you can still change the node
15:37:07 <Steven_> Steven: That is consistent I think
15:37:36 <Steven_> ... because readonly is an OR
15:38:12 <Steven_> Nick: And that treatment of valid is consistent with how submission works
15:38:16 <ebruchez> "Inheritance Rules: If any ancestor node evaluates to true, this value is treated as true. Otherwise, the local value is used."
15:38:17 <Steven_> Erik: Right
15:38:51 <Steven_> ... both are recursive, and we have a consistent approach
15:39:24 <Steven_> Erik: SO how do we ignore the validity of the attribute?
15:39:29 <Steven_> s/SO/So/
15:40:25 <Steven_> Steven: valid(price::text())
15:41:32 <Steven_> ... or valid(price/text())
15:41:41 <ebruchez> Note: The simpleContent binding restriction is intended to allow controls to bind to attribute and element nodes. This specification does not prevent binding controls directly to text nodes, however doing so can yield undesirable behavior, such as a form control becoming non-relevant if a user enters empty data. This specification also does not prevent implementers supporting binding controls directly to comment or processing instruction nodes, however the
15:41:42 <ebruchez> resulting behavior is implementation-dependent and may also yield undesirable behavior.
15:41:57 <Steven_> Erik: Wouldn't work
15:44:50 <Steven_> Steven: Is there a real use-case? <price><type>bar</type>10.42</price>
15:45:09 <Steven_> ... you wouldn;t want to deal with the special case here.
15:45:19 <Steven_> s/;/'/
15:45:57 <Steven_> Erik: True, but we discourage binding to complex values
15:46:14 <Steven_> ... there may even be an exception
15:46:31 <ebruchez> "Element nodes: If element child nodes are present, then an xforms-binding-exception occurs"
15:46:42 <Steven_> Steven: Ah, yes
15:48:46 <Steven_> Steven: In a case like this: <price valuta="usd">10</price>
15:49:28 <Steven_> ... if you said that @valuta could only be gbp usd and eur, then a value of "bar" would make the price invalid
15:50:30 <Steven_> ... I'd like a use-case of where the attribute is irrelevant to the validatty
15:51:02 <Steven_> Erik: In XForms, a control can still be valid if an attribute is invalid
15:51:24 <Steven_> ... so we do have an independent validity property
15:52:09 <Steven_> ... but on the other hand submission does check all the subtrees.
15:52:25 <Steven_> ... So finding a consistent position here is tricky.
15:53:15 <Steven_> ... So a parameter may be the solution here. In the normal case you reciurse, and in the special case you don't.
15:53:20 <Steven_> s/iu/u/
15:53:33 <ebruchez> xf:valid() as xs:boolean
15:53:34 <ebruchez> xf:valid($items as item()*) as xs:boolean
15:53:34 <ebruchez> xf:valid($items as item()*, $relevant as xs:boolean) as xs:boolean
15:53:58 <ebruchez> xf:valid($items as item()*, $relevant as xs:boolean, $recurse as xs:boolean) as xs:boolean
15:54:36 <Steven_> Erik: That would be a possibility then
15:54:55 <Steven_> Steven: Well, shall we go with that then?
15:57:07 <Steven_> s/gbp/gbp,/
15:58:09 <Steven_> Topic: AOB
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15:58:41 <Steven_> Action: Erik to add the bind() function
15:58:41 <Steven_> (http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Bind_function) to XForms 2.0.
15:58:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1954 - Add the bind() function [on Erik Bruchez - due 2013-07-10].
15:59:28 <Steven_> Topic: Timeline
15:59:39 <Steven_> Erik: Progress is slow because we all have little time
15:59:50 <Steven_> Nick: I'm finishing dialog
16:00:41 <Steven_> Nick: I'll organise the calls in the next two weeks
16:00:46 <Steven_> ... we don't have many open items
16:01:50 <Steven_> [ADJOURN]
16:01:52 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
16:01:54 <Zakim> -Steven_
16:01:57 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:01:58 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:01:58 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven_, ebruchez, nvdbleek
16:02:05 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-forms-minutes.html Steven_
16:02:29 <Steven_> Chair: Steven
16:02:33 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-forms-minutes.html Steven_
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