IRC log of ebooki18n on 2013-06-03

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-irc

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23:48:33 [karl]

Meeting: W3C ebook Workshop - Tokyo, Japan - June 4, 2013

23:49:25 [karl]

Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/06/ebooks/program.php

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scribe: ivan

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scribenick: ivan

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rrsagent, set log public

00:03:09 [ivan]

masao: I am working for w3c keio, site manager

00:03:42 [ivan]

… very glad to see everybody here

00:03:42 [ivan]

… lots of people for Japan, European, Americans...

00:03:54 [ivan]

… Japan as a special spec specification for vertical writing

00:04:04 [ivan]

… many countries have many requirements

00:04:10 [ivan]

… i18n is very important for us

00:04:18 [ivan]

… a good opportonity for meet us all

00:04:28 [ivan]

… thank you!

00:04:50 [ivan]

(introducing the two co-chairs)

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Scribe: Ivan

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Richard: you can queue up questions by adding "q+" in this irc channel

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00:14:26 [ivan]

Markus Gylling: IDPF and W3C relationships

00:15:02 [ivan]

mgylling: I am CTO of IDPF, the organization that does the epub standard, current version 3

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00:15:16 [ivan]

… have a background in accessibility, working also for the Daisy consortium

00:15:44 [ivan]

… as you know, this is one out of 3 workshops

00:15:56 [ivan]

… a lead-in to a digital pubishing ig, that will kick of early autumn

00:16:01 [ivan]

… it is a historic event

00:16:06 [ivan]

… for us it is

00:16:23 [ivan]

… w3c has not really engaged in vertical industries

00:16:32 [ivan]

… web and tv is an example for a change

00:16:50 [ivan]

… asking how the open platform works for them

00:17:05 [ivan]

… I would really ike to encourage all of you who are part of this industry to join the ig

00:17:23 [ivan]

… it is really on the alignment of the opw and the digital publishing

00:17:25 [karl]

s/really ike/really like/

00:17:36 [ivan]

… for example breaching the gap between online and offline publishing

00:17:58 [karen_]

URL to Digital Publishing Interest Group Charter: http://www.w3.org/2013/02/digpub-charter-history/diff-digpub-6-7.html

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00:18:11 [ivan]

… or the publ industry metadata (like onyx or marc) : to have ways to add those to the owp

00:18:39 [ivan]

… the topic of adaption, personalization: spending 2-300 hours with a textbook, to be able to adapt that is not only an extra feature, it is a requirement

00:18:45 [ivan]

… and of course accessibility

00:19:02 [ivan]

… we also have the layout features in publishing which is not exactly the same as we

00:19:19 [ivan]

… eg pagination and css have to be better in that, but there are other examples

00:19:37 [ivan]

… we have, potentially, api alignments, eg for social reading, annotation, discovery of content

00:19:47 [ivan]

… like for education

00:19:53 [ivan]

… those were just examples

00:20:09 [Sharad]

will this group define a stabndard for metadata also?

00:20:23 [ivan]

… looking back of the idpf and ig: accessibility and i18n

00:20:34 [ivan]

… for idpf these are non negotiable

00:20:48 [ivan]

… reuse whatver there is to do what they need

00:21:03 [ivan]

… we have an idpf wild card to solve those solution

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00:21:13 [ivan]

… idpf has therefore a css profile for idpf

00:21:28 [ivan]

…. we did this at a time when the the webkit prefixes spread around

00:21:43 [ivan]

… we are aware of th eproblems when you do such a thing

00:22:17 [ivan]

… however, we do not regret this; these were in a large a part those that enables the ebook industry to move away from the propr. format

00:22:26 [stearns_]

Sharad: the draft charter mentions metadata: http://www.w3.org/2013/02/digpubig.html

00:22:28 [Sharad]

"q+ will this group also define a standard for metadata ?"

00:22:30 [ivan]

… that said, we are not done

00:22:43 [ivan]

… there are things that has to be done

00:22:52 [ivan]

… eg, ruby and ??? layout

00:23:08 [ivan]

… our hopes that we do not have to use epub prefixes again

00:23:26 [Sharad]

"q+ how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also?"

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00:23:43 [ivan]

… but that we can more effetively get to what we need

00:23:47 [ivan]

… I hope that you will help us identify a set of core issues

00:23:51 [ivan]

… thank you very much

00:23:52 [Sharad]

thank you Carl

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00:24:08 [Sharad]

q+ how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also

00:24:25 [kaz]

q?

00:25:08 [karl]

q+ to ask will this group define a standard for metadata also?

00:25:24 [karl]

q+ to ask how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also (for Sharad)

00:26:05 [ivan]

Markus: there is enough metadata, no need for a new one

00:26:14 [karl]

ack karl

00:26:14 [Zakim]

karl, you wanted to ask will this group define a standard for metadata also? and to ask how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also (for Sharad)

00:26:18 [ivan]

… the problem is on how to use them, and some of them are too poor

00:26:33 [ivan]

… i hope we may develop good guidellines how to use

00:26:54 [ivan]

… we know that security and drm is required for this industry

00:27:02 [ivan]

… but we do not want the ig to be bogged down

00:27:22 [ivan]

… it is not decided yet, but it will not be given the first point on the agenda

00:27:33 [ivan]

… but an ig is an ig, the members also set the agenda

00:27:47 [ivan]

… depending on what the members want to do

00:27:54 [karl]

q?

00:27:56 [ivan]

Richard Ishida: I18N & W3C

00:28:49 [ivan]

r12n: i18n activity at tha w3c is composed from a number of groups

00:29:14 [ivan]

… i18n wg, mlw-lt group, an interest group a number of task forces

00:29:27 [ivan]

… we review specifications giving advice

00:29:38 [ivan]

… we seek out requirements for owp

00:29:45 [ivan]

… liaise to other communities

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00:30:01 [ivan]

… we help people to use the i18n features for owp

00:30:19 [ivan]

… we have a home page www.w3.org/International/

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00:31:09 [ivan]

r12n: some issues for today, not exhaustive

00:31:45 [ivan]

… html5: text direction, in particular arabic & co, where text flows in different directions, ruby, language declaration

00:31:51 [ivan]

… all these are markup

00:32:00 [ivan]

… time and date, charcter declarations

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00:32:10 [ivan]

… a lot of i18n stuff happens in css

00:32:19 [ivan]

… that is where the styling and typographic work is donw

00:32:53 [ivan]

… eg, css-text text transform, full width characters for example, or white space processing

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00:33:00 [ivan]

… people did not care so far

00:33:14 [mgylling]

s/ruby and ??? layout/bopomofo ruby and tobira layout/

00:33:43 [ivan]

… in chinese or thai if you add <br/> that are not good

00:33:43 [ivan]

… line breaking and word boundaries

00:33:47 [ivan]

… breaking within words

00:34:06 [ivan]

… alignments and justification, different scripts do it differently

00:34:18 [ivan]

… word and letter separation

00:34:38 [ivan]

… first line indentation and hanging in different scripts

00:34:50 [ivan]

… in indic the firs syllable has to be used

00:35:10 [ivan]

… css text decoration spec looks an underline and strike through, etc

00:35:15 [ivan]

… emphais mark

00:35:21 [ivan]

… text shadow

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00:35:37 [ivan]

… css writing mode: direction and bidirection text

00:35:48 [ivan]

… you also have vertical and variant in other languages

00:35:56 [ivan]

… sometimes mixed directions

00:36:04 [ivan]

… base line alignments

00:36:17 [karl]

s/emphais mark/emphasis mark/

00:36:34 [ivan]

… css3 ruby: how do you align the ruby according to your preference

00:36:52 [ivan]

… bopmofo ruby: has a vertical ruby with tone marks

00:37:04 [ivan]

… css font: font properties, vary according tot he scripts

00:37:12 [ivan]

… woff fonts

00:37:23 [ivan]

… fonts features properties

00:37:32 [ivan]

… those were just a few things

00:37:41 [ivan]

… then we have some of the things we have been doing

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00:37:53 [ivan]

… additional requirements for bidi in html and css

00:38:50 [ivan]

…… bidi isolation, we have provied some requirements, those have been put into the html5 spec

00:38:59 [ivan]

… form submission improvements

00:39:16 [ivan]

… requirement for japanese text layout: we produced a separate document

00:39:36 [ivan]

… with different aspects of typography in japan and how those are requirements

00:39:46 [ivan]

… b.t.w., that was produced by a task force in japan

00:40:04 [ivan]

… we have been doing work on ruby: use cases and exploratory approaches for ruby

00:40:18 [ivan]

… that will produce a requirement to the html5 group

00:40:35 [ivan]

… another is a first draft for hangul text layout and typography

00:40:45 [ivan]

… on the same a model as the japanese but for korean

00:41:01 [ivan]

… we put together a task force for indic layout, we are just starting it up

00:41:22 [ivan]

… has published a first draft document

00:41:48 [ivan]

… that will be run by people in INdia

00:42:05 [ivan]

… putting a document together for counter styles for numbered lists

00:42:23 [ivan]

… we plan to make this available as a note

00:42:41 [ivan]

… the question is whether we would need a community group to maintain that list

00:43:00 [ivan]

… multilingual linked open data group has been set up

00:43:47 [ivan]

… This is your Web, this is not W3C's web!

00:44:09 [ivan]

… if you believe that w3c will just do is produce things to what you need, that is a mistake, we do it together

00:44:33 [ivan]

… w3c brings people together, in all those success stories we bring people together

00:44:43 [ivan]

… get involved!

00:45:06 [ivan]

… the web is about people an not about technologies

00:46:23 [ivan]

Bert Bos: Can you typeset a book with CSS?

00:47:33 [ivan]

Bert: assuming you want to make a book, you have xml or html, and you want to make a book with css, is it possible

00:47:50 [ivan]

… I did it:-) I could do it

00:48:03 [ivan]

… if you stick to waht is standard: then the answer is no

00:48:26 [ivan]

… css was meant to be simple

00:48:36 [ivan]

… easy to use for web pages (mostly)

00:48:54 [ivan]

… we expected somethign else for the complex stuff, which became xslt and xsl-fo

00:48:58 [Liam-jp]

[Bert's slides: http://www.w3.org/Talks/2013/0604-CSS-Tokyo/ ]

00:49:15 [ivan]

… learning how to do all that would make time, so we decided to do the easy thing

00:49:20 [ivan]

… but time has changed

00:50:21 [ivan]

… we simplified the design, we assumed the layout was based on the document structure

00:50:29 [ivan]

… plus some few extension for first line, etc,

00:50:46 [ivan]

… but if you do magazines, we need more, we need to look at the regions on the page

00:51:02 [ivan]

… a number of requirements:

00:51:37 [ivan]

… running headers:

00:52:24 [ivan]

… we have simple positioning, page numebers, fixed text in them, proposal to copy text into the runing headers, special elements in the documents, ideas on how to position them on other places

00:52:48 [ivan]

(example on mathamatics)

00:53:23 [glazou]

s/mathamatics/mathematics

00:53:51 [ivan]

… a bunch of other topics, like footnotes, continued on, shapes, grid, ...

00:53:56 [ivan]

(grid example)

00:54:57 [ivan]

… copyfitting: ensure a book has neither too many nor too few pages

00:55:25 [ivan]

… for css: fitting on a smaller scale

00:55:43 [ivan]

.. eg by changing the font bigger or smaller

00:56:53 [ivan]

… styling a blank page, page size, printing marks, ...

00:57:10 [ivan]

… page size is important when you print,

00:57:30 [ivan]

… change bars are interesting, they do not follow the element structure

00:57:48 [ivan]

… for an ebook reader an annotation are important and their styling

00:58:19 [ivan]

… speech, lexicon and pronounciation is missing from there

00:58:24 [ivan]

… there is no standard for that

00:58:38 [ivan]

… vertical text: we have been working on that for a long time

00:58:58 [ivan]

… we found that the first attempt did not satisfy all cases

00:59:10 [ivan]

… we let it rest, did a 2nd attempt a few years later

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00:59:20 [ivan]

… but it was not enough

00:59:33 [ivan]

… now we are making the 3rd attempt, used in the epub3 spec

00:59:34 [mgylling]

Re standards for pronunciation, EPUB 3 references PLS as defined at http://www.w3.org/TR/pronunciation-lexicon/

00:59:42 [ivan]

… hoepfully we will get it right this time

00:59:57 [ivan]

… the japanese layout requirement helped a lot

01:00:06 [ivan]

…. this is a very large subject

01:00:30 [ivan]

… like rotating non ideographic letter or putting multiple narrow character together

01:01:00 [ivan]

… effect of vertical text many other modules, like alignments, floating

01:01:16 [ivan]

… we need aligntment to the top and bottom, or table caption side

01:01:35 [ivan]

… and other properties in a number of other modules

01:02:14 [ivan]

… alphabetic index:

01:02:46 [ivan]

… the question is whether we want to do it in css; we may have to do in formatting phase

01:03:14 [ivan]

… that may lead, eg, multiplication of the page numbers

01:03:43 [ivan]

… you may want to have formatting phase for this

01:03:45 [ivan]

… or make/collapse ranges

01:04:05 [ivan]

… we need to find out what is needed for that, looking at xsl, for example

01:04:13 [ivan]

… afaik nobody tried that yet

01:04:30 [ivan]

… mathml layout needs some css

01:04:38 [ivan]

… the math wg created a profile

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01:04:42 [ivan]

… we want to do more

01:04:57 [ivan]

… as least as nice as TeX can do it

01:05:10 [r12a]

q?

01:05:24 [ivan]

… conclusion: people want to use css, they have to rely extensions because the standard are not ready

01:05:50 [ivan]

… but this year looks like a good one, this workshop, the japanese (and later indic) IG helps a lot

01:07:37 [karen_]

Liam: ruby in running headers?

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01:07:56 [karen_]

Richard: tahnk you to all the speakers in the first sessioin

01:08:09 [karen_]

...we now take a break and will meet back here to start next session at 10:30am

01:08:10 [ivan]

s/tahnk/thank/

01:08:21 [karen_]

...Also, lunch will be here; food will be brought into this room at lunch time

01:08:32 [ivan]

scribe: karen

01:08:38 [ivan]

scribenick: karen_

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RRSAgent, make minutes

01:11:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html MikeSmith

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01:30:01 [karen_]

Topic: Session 1; Speakers: Makoto Murata, Koji Ishii, Shinya Takami

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01:31:17 [karen_]

First Speaker, Session 1: Murata Makoto, co-chair IDPF Advanced/Hybrid Layouts WG, i18N sub-group lead of the IDPF EPUB WG

01:31:46 [karen_]

Scribe: Karen Myers

01:32:06 [karen_]

Richard: Welcome back to the next session

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01:32:38 [karen_]

...after presentations this morning we will have a brief discussion

01:33:06 [karen_]

Makoto-san: Let me explain who I am [reviews slide one roles]

01:33:27 [karen_]

...advanced/hybrid layouts is largely about comics and magazines

01:33:58 [karen_]

...I was an original member of XML WG

01:34:09 [karen_]

...Today I'm not going to talk about detaills because I'm not an expert

01:34:10 [glazou]

interested doc for the current talk https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WQ2lX-zVfJKFVimb7AZauDwJnqSzlv_0rbBq1jA8HFA

01:34:15 [karen_]

...don't know a lot about typography

01:34:17 [glazou]

s/interested/interesting

01:34:31 [karen_]

...but rather point out differences or simillarities in these two wholds

01:34:37 [karen_]

...Web and eBook worlds

01:34:48 [karen_]

...this is my understanding of the World Wide Web

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01:35:00 [karen_]

[slide with spider web and magician on top]

01:35:08 [karen_]

...this is Tim Berners-Lee [laughs]

01:35:17 [karen_]

...Web has not been used to publish books and magazinees

01:35:27 [karen_]

...only recently we see eBooks, especially in US

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01:35:37 [karen_]

...will become more popular in Europe and and Asia over next few years

01:35:43 [karen_]

...Things have changed a lot in Japan recently

01:35:51 [karen_]

...some synergy between two worlds

01:35:58 [karen_]

...eBooks are based on web technologies

01:36:03 [karen_]

...HTML, JPeg, etc.

01:36:14 [karen_]

...today's ebook tech based on web tech

01:36:20 [karen_]

...Today we are seeing a lot more self publishing

01:36:31 [karen_]

...blog first, then create ebooks from that content

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01:36:40 [karen_]

...users don't see differences between the two worlds

01:36:45 [karen_]

...for them the world is one world

01:36:54 [karen_]

...historically there are some important differences

01:37:12 [karen_]

...in IDPF world, EPUB are distributable packes of web contents

01:37:20 [karen_]

...IETF and W3C, what do they do

01:37:34 [karen_]

...MHTML is mainly for email, believe it's widely used by email readers

01:37:41 [karen_]

...and w3C provides widget packaging

01:37:56 [karen_]

...I was in a working group on this but nothing was published

01:38:03 [karen_]

...three different technologies for packaging

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01:38:06 [tmichel]

3 technologies for packaging

01:38:06 [karen_]

...Some key players

01:38:19 [karen_]

....In W3C, browser vendors are key players

01:38:21 [karen_]

...and the IT guys

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01:38:40 [karen_]

...For IDPF, Google, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Sony and the traditional publishers are the key players

01:38:45 [karen_]

..So differences and priorities

01:38:59 [karen_]

...IDPF: longevity of publications is very important

01:39:07 [karen_]

...if book does not display, you would sue publisher

01:39:23 [karen_]

...publisher today can freely update their web page

01:39:36 [karen_]

...traiditonal typography also important; publishers and users say so

01:39:56 [karen_]

...vertical writing is a key factor that IDPF has considered, and also ruby

01:40:13 [karen_]

...at IDPF, Javascript is not well liked

01:40:22 [karen_]

...longevity is the issue; becomes dangerous

01:40:36 [karen_]

...that is why IDPF EPUB3 does not recommend the use of Javascript

01:40:47 [karen_]

...and in W3C web-based application programs are considered important

01:40:51 [karen_]

...these are other differences

01:40:58 [karen_]

...How should we go forward?

01:41:16 [karen_]

...Are these differences really important, going to exist forever, or just because there are traditions from publishers?

01:41:25 [karen_]

...I don't have an answer

01:41:32 [karen_]

...For example, how important is vertical writing?

01:41:42 [karen_]

...Some Japanese writers say yes, others say no

01:41:51 [karen_]

...extreme positions within Japan

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01:42:03 [karen_]

...generation or individual differences; I don't have an answer

01:42:10 [karen_]

...but I believe certainly that the world is converging

01:42:30 [karen_]

...ebook and web world won't continue forever; young writers and new users don't care

01:42:44 [karen_]

...We need better exchanges between IDPF and W3C working groups

01:42:53 [karen_]

...historically there have been interactions with the CSS WG

01:43:06 [karen_]

...Advanced Hybrid Layuts WG and the SVG WG of W3C

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01:43:17 [karen_]

...I am co-chair of this WG; about comics and magazines

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01:43:30 [karen_]

...within EPUB container, it can take three renditions

01:43:42 [karen_]

...you can change font size; don't know number of pages in advanced

01:43:50 [karen_]

...second is for fixed layout and tablets

01:43:53 [karen_]

...this is image based

01:44:04 [karen_]

...which might contain @ text or comics

01:44:15 [karen_]

...Third one is another fixed layout rendition, smaller screen size for mobile

01:44:27 [karen_]

...incorporate one rendition in single diff file

01:44:30 [karen_]

..which one to choose

01:44:44 [karen_]

...Automatically or interactively choose one rendition?

01:44:58 [takase]

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01:45:00 [karen_]

...for example, based on natural language, screen size or resolution or fixed layout

01:45:07 [karen_]

...similar to content negotiation for HTTP

01:45:14 [karen_]

...An interesting possibility for using this

01:45:15 [K_Yamamoto]

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01:45:21 [karen_]

...is to capture sophisticated layout

01:45:30 [karen_]

...Bert mentioned CSS for advanced layout

01:45:37 [karen_]

...looking forward to more progress in that area

01:45:45 [karen_]

...another possibility is to use images

01:45:48 [karen_]

...scanned or PDF docs

01:45:51 [karen_]

...one rendition

01:46:11 [karen_]

...and have another reflowable rendition with simple HTML and CSS style sheets

01:46:24 [karen_]

...this combination allows sophisticated layout

01:46:28 [karen_]

...but no accessibility

01:46:35 [karen_]

...this is not @

01:46:38 [karen_]

...no text to speech

01:46:43 [karen_]

...only for sophisticated layout

01:47:03 [karen_]

...we have a reflowable rendition and we know which region corresponds to which section in the HTML document

01:47:06 [karen_]

...this is the point

01:47:12 [karen_]

...allows you to switch back and forth

01:47:19 [karen_]

...what i18N WG is doing right now

01:47:27 [karen_]

...we plan to put multi-directional links

01:47:38 [karen_]

...detached documents

01:47:50 [karen_]

...it contains multi-directional links detached from XHTML or images

01:48:02 [karen_]

...Last one is intra-rendition navigation

01:48:18 [karen_]

...this is about mobile phones or tablets where screen size is not big enough

01:48:29 [karen_]

...you may want to focus on one panel or page on screen

01:48:33 [r12a]

s/i18N WG/ADH WG/

01:48:36 [karen_]

...this navigation is based on regions

01:48:42 [karen_]

...another possibility

01:48:46 [karen_]

...is magazines

01:48:58 [karen_]

...might contain table of contents

01:49:02 [karen_]

...image areas for text

01:49:12 [karen_]

...How do we capture regions?

01:49:16 [karen_]

...We have two possibilities

01:49:24 [karen_]

...one is to use media fragments from W3C

01:49:30 [karen_]

...other is to use SVG elements

01:49:34 [karen_]

...some other issues

01:49:40 [karen_]

...non-rectangular?

01:49:57 [karen_]

...Yesterday Markus, myself and two other guys attended the SVG F2F WG

01:50:01 [karen_]

...and we had a nice discussion

01:50:21 [karen_]

...and mentioned the idea of delinking non-rectangular views from spec

01:50:34 [karen_]

...they will send us a liaison statement and provide answers to our question

01:50:42 [karen_]

...This is a very good start of our joint work

01:50:48 [karen_]

...between SVG and AHL WG

01:50:50 [karen_]

...end of my talk

01:51:24 [karen_]

Speaker: Koji Ishii

01:52:10 [karen_]

Kaz: I have a question about hybrid layout

01:52:17 [karen_]

...I brought this digital TV Guide

01:52:38 [karen_]

...content is Japanese text explaining this drama

01:52:50 [karen_]

...second part is completely text

01:52:57 [karen_]

...some of pages have this kind of big pictures

01:53:02 [karen_]

...some have manga

01:53:16 [karen_]

...wondering if it is possible for ebooks to implement this kind of layout?

01:53:28 [karen_]

...Murato-san, do you have an opinion for this layout for magazines?

01:53:38 [karen_]

Richard: we will discuss this during the discussion session

01:53:55 [karen_]

Ishii-san: I am from Rakuten, Kobo division

01:54:12 [karen_]

...I would like to talk about specs

01:54:12 [karen_]

...talked last week on issues list with publishers

01:54:23 [karen_]

...found some implementation issues to take to CSS WG

01:54:28 [karen_]

...found some issues hard to solve

01:54:33 [shige]

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01:54:40 [karen_]

...I changed my topic to talk about these things

01:54:46 [karen_]

...Why EPUB Interoperability is hard

01:54:56 [karen_]

...before talking about those issues

01:55:02 [karen_]

...here is the EPUB reading system architecture

01:55:10 [karen_]

...Most has three components

01:55:15 [karen_]

...Webkit, paging engine

01:55:19 [karen_]

...renders on Webkit

01:55:25 [karen_]

...it is not required in EPUB spec

01:55:30 [karen_]

...changing font size, colors

01:55:39 [karen_]

...Today W3C defines UA behavior

01:55:47 [karen_]

...and IDPF defines EPUB files format

01:56:00 [karen_]

...but neither defines paging behavior or when user changes font

01:56:06 [karen_]

...I know there are discussions in IDPF

01:56:13 [karen_]

...and concludd they be left undefined

01:56:22 [karen_]

...I am going to show some examples that publishers are facing today

01:56:32 [karen_]

...By not anyone defining paging behavior

01:56:39 [karen_]

...listed here

01:56:47 [karen_]

...there are multiple ways to implement reading systems

01:56:54 [karen_]

..Some use IFRAME, multicol, regions

01:57:11 [karen_]

...by using each of these different technologies, some CSS properties do not work properly in all browsers

01:57:19 [kotakagi]

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01:57:28 [karen_]

..EPUB WG expects page media to extend further and define EPUB behavior

01:57:33 [karen_]

...Not able to follow that

01:58:00 [karen_]

...EPUB not using readng system as defined in CSS today...

01:58:06 [karen_]

...ICB does not work well

01:58:12 [karen_]

...reading systems has its own margin

01:58:19 [karen_]

...inside the UA they display the contents

01:58:30 [karen_]

...In CSS, ICB assumes it's a browser region

01:58:42 [karen_]

...there is a disconnect between what browser and EPUB see as pages

01:58:54 [karen_]

...Media query has same issue

01:59:01 [karen_]

...heigh often does not work

01:59:05 [karen_]

s/height

01:59:21 [karen_]

...Root elements are not root elements in rem, EPUB contents

01:59:31 [karen_]

...background color is not interoperable

01:59:39 [karen_]

...These different types of implementations make image layout hard

01:59:48 [karen_]

...things publishers want to do

01:59:54 [karen_]

...flat in the page, show image in the new page

02:00:06 [karen_]

...make size of images to be specific percent of pages

02:00:12 [karen_]

...some defined as CSS media

02:00:33 [karen_]

...As mentioned before, most media systems not using CSS

02:00:38 [karen_]

...does not help at all

02:00:46 [karen_]

...Another thing making EPUB interoperability difficulty

02:00:57 [karen_]

...EPUB does not define behavior in change of font size or colors

02:01:12 [karen_]

...I understand it's natural from @ perspective

02:01:22 [karen_]

...Some ambiguity of communication between author and reading system

02:01:30 [karen_]

...when for instance also wants to put inline images

02:01:43 [karen_]

...works as character or image; not clear if an image should change its size

02:01:47 [karen_]

...whic font size to follow

02:01:59 [karen_]

...it's merely unwritten between author and reading system

02:02:16 [karen_]

...it's not written and it's not interoperable

02:02:18 [karl]

q+ to ask if the lack of interoperability is a lack of specifications OR implementation differences with regards to something which is already specified.

02:02:20 [karen_]

...there is no definition today

02:02:33 [karen_]

...CSS does not take case where user changes font size

02:02:52 [karen_]

...see different behavior for line/charaacter spacing by reading systems

02:03:01 [karen_]

...Next one is image caption issue

02:03:07 [karen_]

...recently raised by publishers

02:03:14 [karen_]

...maybe because of font sizes or previous issues

02:03:20 [karen_]

...If author wants to put captions to image

02:03:39 [karen_]

...it's not clearly understood whether those captions should change font sizes according to user settings

02:03:51 [karen_]

...how and where those captions should be displayed is unclear

02:04:00 [karen_]

...We recommend in JPEG or SVG so font size does not change

02:04:10 [karen_]

...putting text into JPEG will make bad accessibility

02:04:15 [karen_]

...Last one is about colors

02:04:20 [karen_]

...not requirement for EPUB

02:04:31 [karen_]

...most have background color or night mode changes

02:04:38 [karen_]

...sometimes the text is unreadable

02:04:44 [karen_]

...black on black is unreadable

02:04:53 [karen_]

...publishers are asking how to resolve those issues

02:04:57 [stearns_]

karl: it's a bit of both. paged media describes *printing*, not on-screen pagination. so we lack a spec for on-screen pagination. But there's also implementation differences that the hacks people use to accomplish on-screen pagination run into

02:04:58 [karen_]

...Today they are unresolved

02:05:04 [karen_]

...I don't have any answers to solve them

02:05:11 [karen_]

...this is a workshop where we can disucss these topics

02:05:20 [karen_]

...I am just showing the issues and showing feedback

02:05:38 [r12a]

q?

02:05:59 [karen_]

Karl Dubost: I wanted to know

02:06:04 [karen_]

...when you talked about all the issues

02:06:11 [karen_]

...if lack of definitions, specifications

02:06:19 [karen_]

...or differences between implementations which is not the same thing

02:06:24 [karen_]

...we do not solve issues the same way

02:06:31 [karen_]

Ishii-san: not sure what it solves

02:06:39 [karen_]

...I see these are issues that W3C has been working on

02:06:45 [karen_]

...because browsers are not interoperable

02:06:57 [karen_]

...that is how W3C has been adding test suites and talking to vendors to make sure interoperable

02:07:06 [karen_]

Karl: so more a question of implementation?

02:07:11 [karen_]

Ishii-san: I think it is both

02:07:16 [karen_]

...W3C takes it as a spec issue

02:07:27 [karen_]

...any developer reading specs will conclude the same behavior

02:07:32 [karen_]

...goal is different

02:07:49 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: presentation is important about defining the procedure

02:07:56 [karen_]

...let us talk about this during the discussion time

02:08:41 [karen_]

Speaker: Shinya Takami

02:08:55 [karen_]

...from Book Walker Co., Ltd.

02:09:03 [karen_]

...I moved to Japanese publisher

02:09:09 [yasuki_]

yasuki_ has joined #ebooki18n

02:09:14 [karen_]

...Book Walker is subsidiary of @ Group

02:09:18 [karen_]

...Let's start

02:09:24 [karen_]

...I am working in publishign industry

02:09:28 [karen_]

...in Japan since last year

02:09:33 [Koji]

s/@/Kadokawa/

02:09:33 [karen_]

...the second ebook industry

02:09:41 [karen_]

...ebook phrase has started with EPUB3

02:09:50 [karen_]

...we have some problems with eBook market in Japan

02:09:57 [karen_]

...I would like to introduce Annotation for sample content

02:10:06 [karen_]

...eBook stores has preview function

02:10:16 [karen_]

...It's good for sales and easy to make

02:10:27 [karen_]

...but some Automatic samples have some problems in Japan

02:10:28 [shige]

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02:10:34 [karen_]

...generation rules are different in each store

02:10:43 [karen_]

...and fixed criteria are not acceptable in some cases in Japan

02:10:51 [karen_]

...We have some traditional file formats in this area

02:11:00 [karen_]

...have to prepare separate files, which is not so cost effective

02:11:15 [karen_]

...We would like to use automatic generation for sample content, but we have problems

02:11:22 [karen_]

...One example is "light novel"

02:11:27 [karen_]

...example like Manga

02:11:33 [karen_]

...illustrations hav big impact for sales

02:11:55 [karen_]

...Some publishers want to remove such kinds of illustrations from sample content

02:12:02 [karen_]

...because it's a motivation to buy the content

02:12:07 [AndChat474201]

AndChat474201 has joined #ebooki18n

02:12:09 [karen_]

...this is imporant for Japan market

02:12:22 [karen_]

...this content is original for movies in Japan

02:12:30 [karen_]

...Another case is "know-how" books

02:12:52 [karen_]

...for example, Michelin Guide is a know-how book

02:13:00 [karen_]

...Trading brands is hot in Japan

02:13:04 [karen_]

...has list of items

02:13:08 [karen_]

...is important for these books

02:13:14 [karen_]

...If readers can read list in sample file

02:13:17 [karen_]

...and body is already done

02:13:23 [karen_]

...many customers will not buy this content

02:13:34 [karen_]

...Some publishers want to shorten the TOC on sample for these kinds of books

02:13:49 [karen_]

...a proposal from Kadokawa is to standardize annotation for sample content

02:13:56 [karen_]

...to show which parts are available for ebooks stores

02:14:05 [karen_]

...Candidate solutoins on EPUB format

02:14:08 [karen_]

...fixed layout

02:14:15 [karen_]

...this is an example for the annotation

02:14:17 [karen_]

...in OPF

02:14:23 [karen_]

[slide with code]

02:14:34 [karen_]

...we can include these kinds of metadata into OPF file

02:14:40 [karen_]

...if we want to partially prohibit

02:14:45 [karen_]

...show extra properties

02:14:58 [karen_]

...maybe detect and understand this instruction when generating some content

02:15:04 [karen_]

...Next example is in XHTML5

02:15:05 [karen_]

...this is good

02:15:12 [karen_]

...publishers can instruct more details

02:15:17 [karen_]

...more rules in HTML5

02:15:27 [karen_]

...Next one is interoperabilit of user's library

02:15:34 [karen_]

...Now in Japan many eBooks stores, over 20

02:15:40 [karen_]

...and over 3,000 publishers in Japan

02:15:47 [karen_]

...each store needs to contract with many, many publishers

02:15:55 [karen_]

...in each store the product lineup is different

02:16:03 [karen_]

...We think this a barrier to expand the market in Japan

02:16:09 [karen_]

...Due to DRM or other technologies

02:16:14 [karen_]

...each user has to buy in each store

02:16:26 [karen_]

...purchase books listed only in each store's library

02:16:50 [karen_]

...Libraries are distributed by each ebooks store

02:17:05 [karen_]

...We already started to share user's libary with some other ebooks stores

02:17:21 [karen_]

...You can read Kadokawa ebooks on other ereaders, even if purchased at other stores

02:17:29 [karen_]

...This interoperabilit brings advantages for users

02:17:38 [karen_]

...Users can avoid distributed ebook libraries

02:17:46 [karen_]

..improve flixibilty of using RS and astores

02:17:53 [karen_]

...Reduction of worry of extention

02:18:03 [karen_]

...This is a sample of library sharing with Booklive

02:18:11 [karen_]

...users can buy Kadokawa ebooks at BookLive

02:18:20 [karen_]

...and read at both BookLive and BookWalker

02:18:31 [karen_]

...We also want to propose to standarize library sharing

02:18:53 [karen_]

...by standardization, helps to expand interopability to other publishers and stores

02:19:06 [karen_]

...Two topics to define: authentication for users and identification

02:19:23 [karen_]

...this topic we think is more important topic; identification of content

02:19:28 [karen_]

...type of ID for sharing

02:19:40 [karen_]

...e.g. uuid, ISBN, e-code, etc.

02:19:52 [karen_]

...I would like to propose how to specify ID for sharing

02:19:57 [karen_]

...these are examples

02:20:01 [karen_]

[slide with code]

02:20:13 [karen_]

...we can add some kind of identifyer or source or metadata

02:20:22 [karen_]

...or associate second ID for library sharing

02:20:34 [karen_]

...if we can standardize ID for library sharing, this can be extended to other stores

02:20:38 [karen_]

...Thank is all, thank you

02:20:41 [karen_]

rrsagent, make minutes

02:20:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html karen_

02:21:02 [karl]

q+ to ask about privacy issues and unique id. Not for now just for the record.

02:21:06 [karen_]

Murato-san: I want to point out that @ is an on-going activity

02:21:09 [karen_]

...really an on-going project

02:21:13 [karen_]

...please join the WG

02:21:19 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: preview?

02:21:22 [Koji]

s/@/preview generation

02:21:26 [karen_]

...library sharing

02:21:56 [karen_]

Jim: interested in your input

02:22:18 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: thank you for these fascinating presentations

02:22:21 [karen_]

...hard to handle

02:22:28 [karen_]

...large issues in a short amount of time

02:22:37 [karen_]

...all three presentations should be included in our priority list

02:22:54 [karen_]

...when all the presentations are finished, we will have discussion time at end of workshop

02:22:59 [karen_]

...impossible to reach conclusion

02:23:08 [karen_]

...If we can continue discussion of last session

02:23:20 [karen_]

...let me split the three presenters' discussions evenly

02:23:24 [karen_]

...Let us talk about three issues

02:23:30 [karl]

ack

02:23:33 [karl]

ack karl

02:23:33 [Zakim]

karl, you wanted to ask if the lack of interoperability is a lack of specifications OR implementation differences with regards to something which is already specified. and to ask

02:23:36 [Zakim]

... about privacy issues and unique id. Not for now just for the record.

02:23:39 [karl]

ack karl

02:24:10 [karen_]

...briefly address previous questions

02:24:24 [karen_]

Ivan: the question was on plans for IG

02:24:24 [karen_]

...about metadata

02:24:30 [karen_]

...whether that IG deals with metadata and how

02:24:40 [karen_]

...the other part is whether the IG will deal with security issues

02:24:43 [karen_]

...May I answer?

02:24:49 [karen_]

...My name is Ivan Herman, W3C

02:25:00 [karen_]

...involved with this whole digital publishing activity

02:25:07 [karen_]

...Markus gave a partial answer

02:25:13 [karen_]

...Metadata on publishing world

02:25:21 [karen_]

...and end up with what libraries use

02:25:27 [karen_]

...it's incredibly complicated

02:25:45 [karen_]

...My personal reaction is that this is so complex that is may deserve a separate workshop

02:25:51 [karen_]

...and perhaps a separate Interest Grou

02:25:54 [karen_]

s/Group

02:26:08 [karen_]

...Markus, Thierry and I are concerned about addressing the most urgent topics

02:26:10 [AndChat|474201]

AndChat|474201 has joined #ebooki18n

02:26:16 [karen_]

...so we may go to another group

02:26:18 [AndChat|474201]

AndChat|474201 has joined #ebooki18n

02:26:27 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: May I ask you about the security issue?

02:26:39 [karen_]

...what is going on about security issue in the IG

02:26:46 [karen_]

Ivan: I was not sure I understood the question right

02:26:57 [kaz]

/me Sharad

02:27:03 [karen_]

Sharad, Inte: First question was about metadata

02:27:08 [karen_]

...why are there so many metadata standards

02:27:17 [karen_]

...isn't that going to cause some confusion

02:27:24 [karen_]

...many publishers using different approaches

02:27:27 [karen_]

...so you cannot search

02:27:32 [karen_]

...that will limit propogation and search

02:27:39 [karen_]

...and of course on security there are so many DRMs

02:27:50 [karen_]

...Reality is, used to have DRM

02:27:53 [karen_]

...correct me

02:28:01 [karen_]

...People can buy books from one store

02:28:27 [karen_]

...So if this group is working on internationalization and piracy is of concern to publishing

02:28:34 [karen_]

...maybe this group should work on this

02:28:40 [karen_]

Ivan: Important clarification

02:28:52 [karen_]

...this is an interest group that will collect requirements for other working groups

02:28:59 [karen_]

...we would not be allowed to come up with solution for DRM

02:29:09 [karen_]

...On DRM, Markus said it's a complex isssue

02:29:16 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

02:29:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html kaz

02:29:21 [karen_]

...and we could spend ten times as much times on this topic at this workshop

02:29:30 [karen_]

...for me, DRM is a business case issue not a technical issue

02:29:38 [karen_]

...as a business case, I cannot give an opinion

02:29:47 [karen_]

...I am a poor techie who does not understand business

02:29:57 [karen_]

@: security is not limited

02:30:04 [kaz]

i/I am working for w3c keio/topic: Welcome/

02:30:05 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: DRM is very complicated

02:30:14 [karen_]

...let us stop the DRM discussion

02:30:24 [karen_]

S: Security is not only DRM

02:30:27 [karen_]

...it is broader

02:30:33 [karen_]

...want to clarify for the record

02:30:39 [kaz]

s/??? layout/vertical layout/

02:30:46 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: let us address ruby

02:30:52 [karen_]

...It is common

02:31:00 [karen_]

...can you anse question?

02:31:08 [r12a]

is ruby common in running headers?

02:31:15 [plh]

I would believe that the IG can and should list the use cases and requirements related to DRM

02:31:31 [karen_]

@: running headers are used because we cannot use ruby

02:31:41 [karen_]

...in a paper book running header contains ruby

02:31:51 [karen_]

..but other alternative ...what is more important

02:32:06 [karen_]

...in code, what cannot be described in Japanese cannot be developed in computers

02:32:15 [karen_]

...@ should be more important than ruby

02:32:19 [karen_]

K: some images in line

02:32:30 [r12a]

koike

02:32:34 [kaz]

s/K:/koike:/

02:32:37 [karen_]

s/@/Koike-san

02:32:50 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: please raise hand and say name slowly

02:33:18 [karen_]

...in Masato-san's presentation, it is important to draw difference between web documents and packed EPUB documents

02:33:32 [Koji]

s/Masato/Makoto/

02:33:33 [karen_]

...In Japanese market there are already two different types of ebooks

02:33:44 [karen_]

...traditional and newer

02:34:07 [karen_]

...Let's think about three types: web types, traditional and ebooks

02:34:15 [karen_]

...what are differences and similarities

02:34:25 [karen_]

...what should we focus on in W3C and EPUB IDPF?

02:34:31 [karen_]

...any questions or ideas, comments

02:34:50 [karen_]

...you experience both vendors and publishers

02:34:56 [kaz]

i#Let me explain who I am#-> http://www.w3.org/2013/06/ebooks/slides/Murata.pptx Murata-san's slide#

02:35:20 [karen_]

...not so important for this industry...just scanning

02:35:34 [karen_]

...we have to focus on how to realize layout for the next generations

02:35:35 [AndChat474201]

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02:35:45 [karen_]

...bonded, simultaneous paper and digital books

02:35:52 [karen_]

...such kind of approaches is more important

02:36:02 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: any other comments?

02:36:06 [kaz]

i#I am from Rakuten, Kobo division#-> http://www.w3.org/2013/06/ebooks/slides/Ishii.pptx Ishii-san's slides#

02:36:09 [karen_]

...to traditional paper book sectors

02:36:19 [karen_]

@: Difficult

02:36:31 [karen_]

...issue

02:36:40 [karen_]

...whether it is traditional book

02:36:43 [karen_]

...or digital

02:36:56 [karen_]

...the content...once we can clarify we can convert into HTML

02:36:59 [karen_]

...but it's difficult

02:37:09 [karen_]

K: any other comments on the three types

02:37:21 [kaz]

i#Shinya Takami#-> http://www.w3.org/2013/06/ebooks/slides/Takami.pptx#

02:37:23 [r12a]

s/K:/Koike:/

02:37:25 [karen_]

@: traditional web and ebook

02:37:37 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

02:37:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html kaz

02:37:40 [karen_]

...differences are

02:37:55 [karen_]

...the images could be larger than one page and that can happen

02:38:03 [karen_]

...that is major difference I think

02:38:08 [karen_]

K: this discussion has long history

02:38:20 [karen_]

...as Tamsun mentioned, why not use PDF?

02:38:33 [karen_]

M: can use HTML

02:38:39 [ivan]

s/M/Murata/

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02:38:46 [r12a]

q?

02:38:47 [karen_]

K: I am not sure satisfied with Murata-san's answer

02:38:59 [ivan]

s/K/Koike/

02:39:59 [kaz]

s/koike: some images in line/K: some images in line/

02:40:16 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: let's come back in last session

02:40:23 [karen_]

...to Ishii-san's discussion

02:40:28 [kaz]

s/@: running headers are used/Koike-san: running headers are used/

02:40:31 [karen_]

...his list is very detailed, long and fascinating

02:40:39 [karen_]

...let us not get into the detailed discussion

02:40:44 [karen_]

...but the positioning of his requirements

02:40:48 [karen_]

...his requirements are

02:41:00 [karen_]

...set between W3C's specifications and EPUB specifications

02:41:08 [karen_]

...he does not know where he should bring such requiremetns

02:41:32 [karen_]

Ivan: So there is one point that is important

02:41:33 [kaz]

s/Koike-san should be more important/gaiji (un-coded character) should be more important/

02:41:36 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

02:41:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html kaz

02:41:36 [karen_]

...One of the jobs of the interest group

02:41:49 [karen_]

...is that the IG has to provide eBook player specific test cases

02:41:59 [karen_]

...you did refer to the testing on HTML5 and CSS

02:42:11 [karen_]

...True that currently those tests are dominated by the browser requiremetns

02:42:26 [karen_]

...One of aspects of IG will be provide additional tests from the publishing industry

02:42:34 [karen_]

...We will need help from you for those tests

02:42:39 [karen_]

...they are essential

02:42:56 [karen_]

...There is a partial answer on test cases that is important

02:43:14 [karen_]

K: One answer if we have difficult to handle issues, let's make test cases and bring them to the W3C IG

02:43:24 [karen_]

...any other comments on Ishii-san's requiremetns

02:43:43 [karen_]

Richard: I would like to talk about Murisan's needs in Internationalization aspects

02:43:58 [karen_]

K: I believe Ashimuri-san's sample is good

02:44:08 [karen_]

...how to deal with it in Internationalization standard?

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02:44:33 [karen_]

Kazuyiki Ashimura, W3C

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02:44:50 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: Ashimura-san is a hybrid of two different types of complicated pages

02:44:54 [karen_]

...and image layout

02:45:05 [karen_]

M: I simplified things too much

02:45:12 [karen_]

...entirely fixed or entirely fluid

02:45:24 [karen_]

s/fluid/reflowable

02:45:30 [karen_]

...possible to have mixture

02:45:39 [karen_]

...possible to have layouts combined

02:45:49 [karen_]

...if my WG provides a good solution to the rendition mapping problem

02:46:02 [karen_]

...it can capture your example without too many style problems to rely on images

02:46:07 [ivan]

s/M:/Murata:/

02:46:08 [karen_]

Ashimura-san: that could be an option

02:46:19 [karen_]

...my point is how to inter-related different layout styles

02:46:32 [karen_]

...a bit strange to have merging from ebook viewpoint

02:46:42 [karen_]

...if this example [slide]

02:46:44 [karen_]

...is an ebook

02:46:52 [karen_]

...maybe part one is this vertical layout

02:47:03 [karen_]

...and part two is the horizontal layout including Manga image

02:47:07 [karen_]

...and this @ part

02:47:13 [karen_]

...another interesting example

02:47:19 [karen_]

...this is index for TV program titles

02:47:35 [karen_]

...interesting point is basically the content is horizontal layout

02:47:44 [karen_]

...it goes from top to the bottom

02:47:58 [karen_]

...and then it reaches end it goes to the left

02:48:05 [karen_]

...and we need to turn this page to this direction

02:48:09 [karen_]

...and next column starts here

02:48:34 [karen_]

...This magazine consists of three entirely different layouts

02:48:44 [karen_]

...So do you want to implement this in the ebooks context as well?

02:48:52 [karen_]

M: you can use in different renditions

02:49:04 [karen_]

Markus: it is traditionally reflowable

02:49:12 [karen_]

...valide to have pre-paginaged epubs

02:49:26 [karen_]

...so you can have different text directions in those pre-defined pages

02:49:33 [karen_]

...not a problem, nice challenges [laughs]

02:49:47 [karen_]

Kobayashi-san: Thank you Ashimura-san for this nice example

02:49:54 [karen_]

...better for us to separate the requiremetns

02:50:01 [karen_]

...this sampel is very good

02:50:09 [karen_]

...to extract the very complicated layout

02:50:31 [karen_]

...in vertical and horizontal and some database generated tables and photos with vertical writings

02:50:38 [karen_]

...but I believe this kind of magazines

02:50:50 [karen_]

...the volumes drastically reduced in Japanese market

02:51:03 [karen_]

...they are being rapidly replaced by web information

02:51:06 [karen_]

...I think our goal is

02:51:14 [karen_]

...how to make electronic book

02:51:18 [karen_]

...for the magazine as is

02:51:22 [karen_]

...what is the best solution to

02:51:26 [karen_]

...provide the informations

02:51:31 [karen_]

...included in this magazine

02:51:54 [karen_]

...Ashimura-san, please extract the requirements from this magazine, but not discuss how to make this magazine as is

02:51:57 [karen_]

...any comments?

02:52:04 [karen_]

Ashimura-san: yes, I compleely agree

02:52:16 [karen_]

...we should not concentrate how to solve the issues but the use case and what is required

02:52:22 [karen_]

K: We have eight minutes

02:52:28 [karen_]

...any comments on the three presentations

02:52:52 [karen_]

@: I would like to hear Bert's comments on Ishii-san's presentation on page model

02:53:13 [karen_]

Bert: I think I need to talk more about the long list of problems; so much to you

02:53:15 [karen_]

...base media

02:53:18 [ivan]

s/@:/Murata:/

02:53:19 [karen_]

...we have something in CSS

02:53:23 [karen_]

...also working on new ideas

02:53:32 [kaz]

s/Session 1; Speakers: Makoto Murata, Koji Ishii, Shinya Takami/[ BREAK ]/

02:53:34 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

02:53:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html kaz

02:53:35 [karen_]

...that are only starting; Daniel Glazman has some ideas

02:53:41 [karen_]

...we will talk about this week at our meeting

02:53:45 [karen_]

...I know there are problems

02:53:52 [karen_]

...want to know what the requirements area

02:53:59 [karen_]

...some studies were based on print books

02:54:04 [karen_]

...need more on ebooks

02:54:18 [karen_]

...most of people in WG come from Western typography

02:54:45 [karen_]

...I know there are problems, so I'm interested in hearing more about requirements

02:54:53 [karen_]

Daniel: Rendering engine vendors

02:55:01 [karen_]

...focus on page loading and over the wire

02:55:13 [karen_]

...not so interested in batch processing and static documents

02:55:22 [karen_]

...why IDPF had to standardize things outside of @

02:55:28 [karen_]

...it was not relevant for the dynamic web

02:55:45 [karen_]

...browser vendors don't want a few technologies if not relevant for web

02:55:57 [karen_]

...other is Webkit monopoly as rendering engine for ebook readers

02:56:12 [karen_]

...almost all of you are using the same engine so there is no competition and incentive

02:56:21 [karen_]

Ishii-san: one question to ask Daniel

02:56:37 [karen_]

...rather than each requirement I listed, they are examples for you to understand the primary topic

02:56:42 [karen_]

...the EPUB pages are not

02:56:49 [karen_]

...paged media as defined in CSS

02:57:05 [karen_]

...most EPUB RS vendors, especially on one major mobile platform where we cannot modify Webkit

02:57:12 [karen_]

...we have to make it usable on known page media

02:57:21 [karen_]

...if future versions take level 3 and make available

02:57:30 [karen_]

...we cannot implement for tablets

02:57:39 [karen_]

...wonder if EPUB pages shoudl be separated from page media

02:57:48 [karen_]

..or another type of media where we can define a frame

02:57:52 [karen_]

...within a browser

02:58:00 [karen_]

...and that frame has each pages

02:58:11 [karen_]

Daniel: We discussed a little bit about a session

02:58:16 [karen_]

...with Bill McCoy

02:58:27 [karen_]

...People from Hachette said they had to implement pagination over Webkit

02:58:32 [karen_]

...because it was not available

02:58:42 [karen_]

...pagination EPUB uses is similar to slidereader

02:58:59 [karen_]

...take same pagination scheme, I don't see why it should be limited to an EPUB page model, it's more global than that

02:59:03 [karen_]

I: I agree

02:59:13 [karen_]

...issue is that slide model is not available in CSS today or is it?

02:59:14 [ivan]

s/I:/Ishii:/

02:59:25 [karen_]

Richard: Can we move onto Internationalization examples?

02:59:31 [karen_]

...please let's keep on track

02:59:37 [karen_]

...I am getting some complaints

02:59:49 [karen_]

...So I have a question for Murato-san

02:59:59 [karen_]

I: a lot of issues come from image positioning and sizing

03:00:00 [karen_]

...not sure

03:00:06 [karen_]

...it's not Internationalization issues

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03:00:17 [karen_]

...but I'm not hearing those issues in other countries other than Japan

03:00:23 [karen_]

...but it's more important for Japan

03:00:30 [karen_]

Richard: Ok, that is a good point

03:00:34 [karen_]

...Let me ask my question

03:00:43 [takase]

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03:00:46 [karen_]

...you would asking about restorized coent

03:00:48 [karen_]

content

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03:00:59 [karen_]

...Manga translated from Japanese into Chinese

03:01:02 [karen_]

...the sound effects

03:01:10 [karen_]

...lots of sound effects in Kanji

03:01:27 [karen_]

...so the Chinese people do not hear the sound effects

03:01:31 [karl]

timely related - Layout analysis for National Geographic Web site http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/casestudies/natgeo/

03:01:32 [karen_]

...if you rastorize the materials

03:01:34 [Norbert]

s/Kanji/katakana/

03:01:38 [karen_]

...perhaps if you use SVG?

03:01:43 [karen_]

...is that a fair point?

03:01:53 [karen_]

M: multilingual example demonstrated yesterday

03:01:57 [karen_]

...accessibility is important

03:02:07 [karen_]

...we understand that existing Manga is completely rastorized

03:02:23 [karen_]

...difficult to provide nice text...to fit in baloon

03:02:26 [ivan]

q+

03:02:34 [karen_]

...One solution is to provide real text and rastorized text

03:02:42 [karen_]

...provide SVG and specificy invisible element

03:02:46 [karen_]

...that is a possibility

03:02:52 [karen_]

...or provide an underlined XML document

03:02:55 [karen_]

...as another possibility

03:03:09 [karen_]

...we have not specified; rest is up to users or authors

03:03:14 [ivan]

s/M:/Murata:/

03:03:17 [karen_]

...Yes, I understand your concern

03:03:27 [karen_]

...publishers only have rastorized Manga

03:03:35 [karen_]

...so provide some features but rest is up to the market

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03:03:50 [karen_]

Markus: We saw a multilingual demo by Fujifilm

03:03:53 [karen_]

...how did they do it?

03:03:59 [karen_]

M: small rastorized file

03:04:09 [karen_]

...on top of Japanese text

03:04:11 [ivan]

s/M:/Murata:/

03:04:15 [karen_]

...the baloon shows text

03:04:22 [karen_]

...can be done easily with SVG animation

03:04:29 [karen_]

...don't need Javascript and we are happy to hear that

03:04:46 [karen_]

Ivan: I have a short question

03:04:49 [karen_]

...come back to that

03:04:57 [karen_]

...I am intrigued by one of your remarks, Murato-san

03:05:03 [karl]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

03:05:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html karl

03:05:07 [karen_]

...that there is no real agreement whether vertical writing is important or not

03:05:15 [karen_]

...For us outsiders, this is a difficulty

03:05:22 [karen_]

...I had heard that it is very important in Japan

03:05:44 [karen_]

...Dicussion with Chinese friends say they don't want vertical writing except for historical text

03:05:50 [karen_]

...So I was surprised by your remark

03:05:58 [karen_]

...there was this strong contrast

03:06:06 [karen_]

...May be a longer discussion

03:06:17 [karen_]

M: Japanese could spend ten hours on this topic

03:06:36 [karen_]

Richard: we don't have to talk only about the topics that the speakers brough forward

03:06:41 [ivan]

s/M:/Murata:/

03:06:44 [karen_]

K: Let's have lunch break and have discussions offline

03:06:44 [karl]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

03:06:44 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html karl

03:06:56 [karen_]

Ashimura-san: lunch table is in front of the entrance

03:07:09 [karen_]

K: please next session speakers should prepare their connections

03:07:19 [karen_]

rrsagent, make minutes

03:07:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html karen_

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04:01:51 [bert_]

ScibeNick: bert_

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04:02:09 [bert_]

[Richard thanks the organizers]

04:02:33 [bert_]

[... and the sponsors]

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04:03:16 [bert_]

r12a: Next workshop in Paris in September. Talk to Liam about that one.

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04:04:19 [bert_]

[Next speaker is Shinyu Murakami, Antenna House]

04:05:19 [bert_]

murakami: CSS3 page implementation in Antenna House. AH is Uusing several W3C specifications.

04:05:40 [bert_]

... Particiapted in JLREQ.

04:06:05 [bert_]

... We're making ebooks and print books simultaneously.

04:06:21 [bert_]

... Cloud-authoring service, single source

04:06:27 [bert_]

... Uses CSS for ebook

04:06:42 [bert_]

... Uses CSS and/or XSL for print.

04:07:17 [bert_]

... Used by O'Reilly.

04:07:33 [bert_]

... Important aspects of CSS layout specs:

04:08:00 [bert_]

... About CSS3 Page for books today:

04:08:08 [Norbert]

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04:08:47 [bert_]

... Draft, but used today.

04:09:11 [bert_]

... With proprietary extensions.

04:10:01 [bert_]

... JLREQ is also available as a printed book, formatted this way.

04:10:18 [bert_]

... Many O'Reilly book also made with CSS.

04:10:39 [kaz]

i/ScibeNick:/scribenick: bert_/

04:10:49 [bert_]

... An O'Reilly book by Nelly McKesson describes how.

04:11:08 [kaz]

i/scribenick: bert_/[ LUNCH ]/

04:11:09 [bert_]

... It is made with AH Formatter.

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04:11:16 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

04:11:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html kaz

04:11:25 [bert_]

... Future:

04:11:40 [bert_]

... EPUB readers will have rich features.

04:12:05 [bert_]

... CSS3 Page for ebook layout issues.

04:12:16 [bert_]

... [shows examples of layout]

04:12:29 [bert_]

... Centered on page or in page corner.

04:12:41 [bert_]

... Positioning a picture.

04:12:49 [bert_]

... Page floats in draft spec.

04:13:19 [bert_]

... Image repeated in page margin area on all pages.

04:14:00 [bert_]

... This can be possible in future EPUB with CSS.

04:14:45 [bert_]

... JLREQ is also useful for page layout requirements,

04:14:45 [bert_]

... End notes, footnotes in vertical writing.

04:14:45 [bert_]

... Position of illustrations in vertical layout.

04:15:01 [bert_]

... I hope future CSS specs will standardize these requirements.

04:16:03 [bert_]

... [showing an example with Ruby]

04:16:28 [bert_]

... I made this example myself, it is not from a book.

04:16:39 [bert_]

... [another example, page floats]

04:16:52 [bert_]

... We can do this today, with CSS draft specs.

04:17:46 [bert_]

[next speaker is Bobby Tung]

04:18:31 [bert_]

Tung: What is bopomofo ruby?

04:18:48 [bert_]

... phonetic system, mainly in Taiwan.

04:18:59 [bert_]

... Used in education.

04:19:28 [bert_]

... 37 symbols + 4 tone marks.

04:20:04 [bert_]

... tone marks should be placed to the right of the other symbols.

04:20:46 [bert_]

... bopomofo of a character can be 1 to 4 symbols with or without a tone mark.

04:21:08 [bert_]

... Ministry of Education of Taiwan published composition rule for bopomofo in 2000.

04:21:23 [bert_]

... But almost impossible to do on the Web.

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04:21:50 [karl]

q+ to ask are there similar requirements for Cantonese (such as ruby but with more tones) or other languages?

04:22:00 [karl]

q?

04:22:14 [bert_]

... Tone mark glyphs in Unicode since 1993. Glyphs do not satisfy MoE's requirements.

04:22:45 [bert_]

... [diagram of glyph size distributions]

04:23:02 [bert_]

... HTML mark-up needs nested ruby.

04:23:18 [bert_]

... CSS font size proportions.

04:23:36 [bert_]

... [screendump on Webkit]

04:23:47 [bert_]

... EPUB reflow.

04:24:27 [bert_]

... And in horizontal writing with CSS, should be displayed inline. Often looks terrible.

04:24:37 [bert_]

... Alignment is also an issue.

04:25:00 [bert_]

... Center baseline. Letter spacing issue needs investigation.

04:25:16 [bert_]

... Will need 'ruby-align: center'

04:25:32 [bert_]

... With relative font-size.

04:25:44 [ivan]

q-

04:25:47 [bert_]

... Does this conflict with Japanese ruby requirements?

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04:26:11 [bert_]

... I asked for alternative solutions.

04:26:20 [bert_]

... Some suggested web fonts.

04:26:44 [bert_]

... Lot of Chinese chars have alternative pronunciations.

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04:26:51 [bert_]

... We're working on tools.

04:27:17 [bert_]

... Marking up every character (in educational books) is too hard without a tool.

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04:27:36 [bert_]

... Government of Taiwan is willing to help implementers.

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04:28:29 [bert_]

[next speaker is Yasuki Ikeuchi]

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04:30:19 [ddavis]

q+ To ask how common instances of bopomofo and ruby for running headers (Japanese) are.

04:30:56 [bert_]

Ikeuchi: ACCESS EPUB 3.0 engine, fed back into Readium.

04:31:14 [bert_]

... Two issues:

04:31:46 [bert_]

... 1st is long ruby line breaks, found no work-around.

04:32:03 [kaz]

i|Yasuki Ikeuchi|-> http://www.w3.org/2013/06/ebooks/slides/Ikeuchi.ppt Ikeuchi-san's slides|

04:32:11 [bert_]

... Ruby nakiwakare

04:32:43 [bert_]

... in light novels, for high school students.

04:32:53 [kaz]

rrsagent,, draft minutes

04:32:53 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand ', draft minutes', kaz. Try /msg RRSAgent help

04:32:54 [bert_]

... Reflow the ruby is difficult.

04:33:51 [bert_]

... Reflow the ruby over two uneven lines, or over two top-aligned lines, or split the base text?

04:34:19 [bert_]

... Kanbun is for classic Chinese text in translation.

04:34:31 [bert_]

... It is required in elementary school.

04:34:40 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

04:34:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html kaz

04:34:50 [bert_]

... Some features can be done with CSS Ruby.

04:34:55 [bert_]

... But not enough.

04:35:10 [bert_]

... JIS X4051 is the standard.

04:35:36 [bert_]

... [Kanbun examples]

04:36:24 [bert_]

... [shows some "normal" ruby and "kaeri ten" ruby]

04:36:35 [bert_]

... needs to reorder the characters.

04:37:07 [bert_]

... Kanbun sometimes has emphasis.

04:37:28 [bert_]

... Sometimes moved to left side of the vertical line.

04:37:48 [kaz]

i|Next speaker is Shinyu Murakami|-> http://www.w3.org/2013/06/ebooks/slides/Murakami.pdf Murakami-san's slides|

04:38:03 [bert_]

... Conclusion: currently difficult to resolve with CSS Ruby spec,

04:38:14 [bert_]

... but we have to solve it.

04:38:27 [bobbytung]

bobbytung has joined #ebooki18n

04:38:28 [r12a]

q?

04:38:36 [karl]

ack karl

04:38:36 [Zakim]

karl, you wanted to ask are there similar requirements for Cantonese (such as ruby but with more tones) or other languages?

04:38:36 [kaz]

i|next speaker is Bobby Tung|-> http://www.w3.org/2013/06/ebooks/slides/Bobby.pdf Bobby's slides|

04:38:38 [kaz]

q+

04:39:29 [bert_]

Murata: Can you not use Unicode code points?

04:39:55 [bert_]

Ikeuchi: Yes, implementation issue.

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04:40:08 [bert_]

murata: so only implementation?

04:40:23 [bert_]

ikeuchi: But is also missing in the CSS spec.

04:41:16 [bert_]

Kobayashi: Kanbun is difficult to implement. It is also a small market. JLTF decided not to describe it.

04:41:16 [kaz]

i|Next speaker is Shinyu Murakami|-> http://www.w3.org/2013/06/ebooks/slides/Murakami.pdf Murakami-san's slides|

04:41:20 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

04:41:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html kaz

04:41:39 [bert_]

... Some inline text similar to bopomofo and ruby.

04:42:02 [bert_]

... Unicode has 10 kanbun characters, but that is not enough to correctly visualize.

04:42:21 [bert_]

... Usually the symbols are made from multiple chars, like ligatures.

04:42:42 [bert_]

... Glyphs can be huge. Costly for font vendors.

04:42:56 [ivan]

q?

04:43:07 [bert_]

... other questions about last 3 talks?

04:43:37 [bert_]

Karl dubost: Ruby is very specialized.

04:43:40 [ivan]

ack ddavis

04:43:40 [Zakim]

ddavis, you wanted to ask how common instances of bopomofo and ruby for running headers (Japanese) are.

04:43:49 [bert_]

... Is there similar for other languages?

04:44:05 [bert_]

.. Is it reusable? Other inline annotations? More generic?

04:44:26 [bert_]

???: ruby-align: center

04:44:46 [kaz]

s/???:/bobbytung:/

04:45:23 [bert_]

kobayashi: About Karl's question:

04:45:42 [bert_]

... Ruby is made for Japanese, but can be used for other languages.

04:45:54 [bert_]

... Who has examples of other uses?

04:46:02 [bert_]

... Bopomofo is an example.

04:46:15 [AndChat|474201]

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04:46:25 [bert_]

R12a: Used in Chinese. Bopomofo indeed has some issues.

04:46:39 [bert_]

... In HTML ruby spec we say is can be used generically.

04:46:44 [bert_]

... I've seen Arabic.

04:47:07 [bert_]

... But things like glosses are probably beter done with something that was designed to be generic.

04:47:31 [MikeSmith]

q+ to speak

04:47:43 [bert_]

... I think we should finsih ruby soon, use it for far-east. Then look at generic solutions.

04:48:16 [MikeSmith]

q+ to speak about ruby and need to focus on real requirements and not hypothetical ones and to get the current ruby spec implemented first

04:48:23 [bert_]

Kobayshi: When we use ruby in HTML, we tend to use inline annotation characters.

04:48:32 [bert_]

... Suggested that to Unicode.

04:48:46 [bert_]

... Ruby is similar to inline annotation.

04:49:04 [bert_]

... We have possibilities to use such taggings.

04:49:29 [bert_]

r12a: But Unicode doesn't do double-sided Unicode and some other things

04:49:58 [bert_]

kobayashi: Yes, long discussion possible between using HTML and using Unicode.

04:50:20 [bert_]

... We made a Note, Unicode and W3C, about tagging and functionality.

04:50:45 [bert_]

... If there are 2 descriptions, the tags take priority and the text is ignored.

04:50:51 [stearns_]

Arabic/Hebrew annotations are vowel marks with completely different layout considerations, AFAIK

04:51:05 [kaz]

q?

04:51:47 [MikeSmith]

stearns_: yeah, let's please resist the tendency to want to shoehorn that other stuff into ruby

04:51:53 [bert_]

... Bobby Tung asked if Chinese bopomofo can live with ruby. Does it need more study?

04:52:11 [MikeSmith]

s/stearns_: yeah,/stearns_, yeah,/

04:52:14 [bert_]

murata: I'm interested in the answer. What mark-up structure is needed?

04:52:21 [MikeSmith]

RRSAgent, make minutes

04:52:21 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html MikeSmith

04:52:45 [bert_]

r12a: We have two or three ruby specs for mark-up, and one draft for style.

04:53:33 [bert_]

... 1st is [...], 2nd is HTML5, 3rd is Ruby Extension Spec.

04:53:43 [bert_]

... Who heard about the 3rd?

04:53:45 [shige]

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04:53:48 [bert_]

... [not many]

04:53:59 [bert_]

... And then there is the CSS draft.

04:54:22 [bert_]

... That determines the positioning. It is back to Working Draft.

04:54:57 [bert_]

... Some mark-up was not taken into account, and some other issues. That has to be fixed.

04:55:15 [bert_]

... I hear all the time that ruby is important.

04:55:36 [bert_]

... We can have the extension spec for HTML5, but only if we find implementations.

04:55:57 [bert_]

... Issue is then that it is incompatbile with ruby in HTML5 itself.

04:56:21 [bert_]

... Ruby is not going to be taken out of HTML5.

04:56:43 [bert_]

... But maybe some parts of it can be replaced.

04:57:14 [bert_]

... But I think we want the implementers to impl the extensions spec, which will then replace HTML5.

04:57:32 [bert_]

murata: Does the extension spec satisfy the Taiwanese requirements?

04:57:56 [bert_]

r12a: Yes, the structure is actually quite simple (in contrast to layout).

04:58:08 [bert_]

murata: So not for accents?

04:58:31 [MikeSmith]

before hoping that Mozilla and others implement the extension spec, let's please hope that they first implement ruby at all. Which they don't yet at all.

04:58:41 [MikeSmith]

q?

04:58:49 [bert_]

r12a: Yes, the actual placement is done by the style. Need to mark it up, but tone marks are positioned by style.

04:59:05 [kawada_]

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04:59:10 [bert_]

... The extension spec doesn't specify that. Mark-up has no issue.

04:59:21 [bert_]

... But we need implementations.

04:59:34 [bert_]

murata: Bobby, do you agree?

05:00:11 [bert_]

bobby tung: I want to provide input to the CSS module.

05:00:26 [bert_]

... Because the style doens't look so well now, people don

05:00:34 [bert_]

... 't use it right now.

05:00:47 [bert_]

... Will try to impl in webkit this year.

05:01:05 [bert_]

r12a: I'm hoping something may happen today.

05:01:14 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

05:01:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html kaz

05:01:30 [bert_]

... We need browsers to implement. We need people to review the extension spec. And we need people to look at and help with the CSS spec.

05:01:33 [bert_]

... Who can help?

05:01:51 [stearns_]

link to extension spec here?

05:01:53 [bert_]

Mike Smith (W3C): I'm based here in Tokyo.

05:02:02 [bert_]

... I've spent lot of time on this.

05:02:13 [bobbytung]

ruby extension : http://www.w3.org/International/notes/ruby-extension/

05:02:16 [bert_]

... Before the extension spec, we need impl of ruby at all.

05:02:26 [stearns_]

thanks, bobbytung

05:02:55 [bert_]

... Make contacts with implementers. I can provide names at Mozilla.

05:02:59 [kaz]

s/Karl dubost:/Karl_dubost:/

05:03:14 [bert_]

... Ruby base element is missing from impl.

05:03:19 [kaz]

s/bobby tung:/bobby_tung:/

05:03:23 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

05:03:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html kaz

05:03:31 [bert_]

... Priority is to get basic ruby implemented.

05:03:54 [bert_]

... Let's not add new requirements, especially hypothetical ones.

05:04:14 [bert_]

... If we really need them, we can consider putting them somewhere.

05:04:27 [kaz]

s/Mike Smith (W3C):/Mike_Smith_(W3C):/

05:04:28 [bert_]

r12a: What other requirements?

05:04:43 [bert_]

mike: E.g., using ruby in Arabic.

05:04:53 [bert_]

r12a: How do we make this happen?

05:05:15 [bert_]

mike: Knowing how the browser makers operate, they respond to business needs.

05:05:45 [bert_]

... E.g., Mozilla now wants to make a mobile OS, interested in getting device makers to use it.

05:06:04 [bert_]

... An e-book device could use it.

05:06:24 [bert_]

... So if you make a device, tell them what the requirements are.

05:06:54 [bert_]

Kobayashi: Mike's comments are important for us.

05:07:07 [bert_]

... How to implement the requirements.

05:07:42 [MikeSmith]

q+ to say that we from W3C can help broker discussions with implementors

05:07:47 [bert_]

... I have some questions:

05:07:50 [karl]

q?

05:08:37 [kaz]

s/some questions:/a question to Ikeuchi-san/

05:09:23 [bert_]

... Problem is to generate e-books from legacy paper books?

05:09:45 [bert_]

... Sometimes we tend to only move the paper books as-is.

05:10:04 [bert_]

... But sometimes paper-books have some functionality, to realize, inform something.

05:10:14 [bert_]

... Ruby can be used as inline annotation.

05:10:38 [bert_]

... We may need to change the representation based on that,

05:11:06 [bert_]

Ishii: There could be different ways to present the ruby.

05:11:32 [bert_]

... But working with publishers, we haven't found better ways yet. Long ruby is an issue.

05:12:01 [bert_]

???: Talking as a publisher in Japan, long ruby tends to be used in light novels.

05:12:16 [kaz]

s/???:/takami-san:/

05:12:35 [bert_]

... Light novel very important and thus ruby very important.

05:13:23 [bert_]

Kaz: Ruby not just for pronunciation, also for annotations. EPUB includes pronunciation.

05:13:38 [yasuharu]

yasuharu has joined #ebooki18n

05:13:52 [bert_]

... We imported phoneme elements into ruby.

05:14:18 [bert_]

... Maybe, as Kobayashi mentioned, we should now concentrate on annotation functions.

05:14:29 [r12a]

q+

05:14:36 [kaz]

ack k

05:14:36 [r12a]

ack kaz

05:14:40 [ivan]

ack kaz

05:14:44 [ivan]

ack MikeSmith

05:14:44 [Zakim]

MikeSmith, you wanted to speak and to speak about ruby and need to focus on real requirements and not hypothetical ones and to get the current ruby spec implemented first and to

05:14:47 [Zakim]

... say that we from W3C can help broker discussions with implementors

05:14:53 [r12a]

ack r12a

05:15:08 [AndChat474201]

AndChat474201 has joined #ebooki18n

05:15:11 [bert_]

Mike: Many people probably do not know how W3C works. We broker between parties.

05:15:27 [bert_]

... Requirements and implementers. W3C staff can help.

05:15:36 [bert_]

... Get involved in WGs.

05:15:48 [bert_]

... Ruby discussions are in HTML WG.

05:16:02 [bert_]

... I can help, so can Daniel Davis.

05:16:19 [bert_]

... It helps to be member of W3C.

05:16:36 [kaz]

s/We imported phoneme elements into ruby./We imported phoneme elements into SSML 1.1 for Ruby when when internationalized SSML/

05:16:39 [bert_]

... Members get direct access to us.

05:17:14 [bert_]

Ivan: The Interest Group we are setting up is for this. If the WG is too scary, the IG may be better.

05:17:26 [bert_]

... The IG is to collect, synthesize requirements.

05:17:51 [bert_]

... Make it usable by HTML, WG, CSS WG, I18N WG, etc.

05:18:07 [bert_]

r12a: I18N WG is working on a requirements document.

05:18:42 [bert_]

[break until 14:40]

05:19:26 [r12a]

s/I18N WG is working on a/I18n WG is about to publish a Note about use cases/

05:26:39 [Koji]

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05:29:07 [kotakagi]

kotakagi has joined #ebooki18n

05:31:20 [kyoji]

kyoji has joined #ebooki18n

05:32:13 [tlk_]

tlk_ has joined #ebooki18n

05:40:12 [ddavis]

scribenick: ddavis

05:40:19 [ddavis]

scribenick: ddavis

05:40:35 [ddavis]

scri

05:40:50 [Koji]

Koji has joined #ebooki18n

05:41:00 [ddavis]

ddavis has joined #ebooki18n

05:41:24 [ddavis]

r12a: Let's start with the next session.

05:41:29 [sam_]

sam_ has joined #ebooki18n

05:41:35 [ddavis]

... Again, we're going to hear three people's ideas.

05:41:43 [ddavis]

... Discussion will be afterwards.

05:41:53 [ddavis]

... Norbert Lindenberg to start.

05:42:09 [ddavis]

Norbert: Will talk about JavaScript and ebooks.

05:42:23 [ddavis]

...How we can take books and make them more interactive.

05:42:35 [yasuharu]

yasuharu has joined #ebooki18n

05:42:38 [ddavis]

... First thing is an intro to the JavaScript platform.

05:42:52 [ddavis]

... Firstly, the ECMA organisation based in Switzerland.

05:43:00 [ddavis]

... They define the language and core API.

05:43:14 [ddavis]

... and Internationalization API.

05:43:26 [ddavis]

... W3C defines DOM, etc. with access to JavaScript

05:43:42 [ddavis]

... and specifications such as XHR to communicate with service

05:43:56 [AndChat474201]

AndChat474201 has joined #ebooki18n

05:44:00 [ddavis]

... Then there are libraries such as jQuery, Dojo, YUI, Node.

05:44:14 [ddavis]

... Core ECMAScript language started with Unicode

05:44:22 [ddavis]

... Originally UTF-16

05:44:54 [ddavis]

... Still some areas of Unicode using 16-bit encoding

05:45:06 [ddavis]

... Sometimes difficult to work with these characters with JavaScript

05:45:20 [ddavis]

... This is being address in ECMAscript 16

05:45:36 [ddavis]

... Also adding normalization

05:45:51 [ddavis]

... and the ability to understand unicode properties.

05:46:08 [ddavis]

... We've been working on an i18n API

05:46:18 [ddavis]

... This allows string comparison and sorting

05:46:34 [ddavis]

... Support for numbers, currency, date and time formatting

05:46:48 [AndChat|474201]

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05:46:57 [ddavis]

... Number formatting can be Arabic, Indic

05:47:29 [ddavis]

.. The same thing for dates - Korean, Japanese, Thai, Roman-alphabet, etc.

05:47:38 [karl]

http://norbertlindenberg.com/2012/12/ecmascript-internationalization-api/index.html ->The ECMAScript Internationalization API

05:47:45 [ddavis]

... Note that the Thai year is not 2013 - in this case is 2556

05:48:05 [ddavis]

... Now started work on version 2.0 of i18n API with target of completion by end of 2014

05:48:19 [ddavis]

... This will include time zone supports, e.g. for meetings

05:48:31 [kotakagi]

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05:48:32 [ddavis]

... Also text segmentation (word breaking, sentence breaking)

05:48:45 [glazou]

q+ have you seen mozilla's webL10n javascript i18n / l10n library?

05:48:56 [ddavis]

... Enables search engine creation with JavaScript

05:49:12 [glazou]

q+ to ask if speaker knows about mozilla's webL10n javascript i18n / l10n library?

05:49:18 [ddavis]

... Also support for message formatting, e.g. gender and plural handling

05:49:26 [ddavis]

... Useful for languages such as French, Arabic, etc.

05:49:51 [ddavis]

... EPUB 3 now allows <script> tag

05:50:13 [ddavis]

... Works with things outside HTML5 such as XHR (not officially part of HTML5)

05:50:40 [ddavis]

... There are few implementations so far so cannot currently create a book containing this.

05:50:44 [ddavis]

... How do people use this?

05:50:54 [ddavis]

... Drawing and animations using HTML canvas.

05:51:07 [ivan]

q+ how wide is time implementations of the I18N API in browsers?

05:51:14 [ddavis]

... for example making textbooks with quizzes and other interactive components

05:51:24 [ddavis]

... Can create multilingual books

05:51:40 [AndChat474201]

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05:51:50 [ddavis]

... The user typically only needs one language - let them select the right one.

05:51:50 [AndChat474201]

AndChat474201 has joined #ebooki18n

05:52:03 [ddavis]

... The boundary blurs between a book and an application as interactivity increases.

05:52:13 [ddavis]

... The big question is...

05:52:20 [ddavis]

... What kind of requirements are there?

05:52:27 [stearns_]

q+ ivan to ask how wide is time implementations of the I18N API in browsers?

05:52:32 [ddavis]

... What's needed for people to write books?

05:52:51 [kurui]

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05:52:53 [ddavis]

[Norbert shows a multilingual demo]

05:53:24 [ddavis]

[Selecting language from select box modifies DOM and stylesheet to only show text for that language]

05:53:59 [ddavis]

glazou: Want to mention a library created by Mozilla

05:54:06 [ddavis]

... called webl10n

05:54:16 [ddavis]

... using it to localize Firefox OS

05:54:24 [ddavis]

... Can do gender, plural, "everything"

05:54:47 [ddavis]

... JavaScript is still needed in EPUB if you want to take advantage of Web APIs, for example ambient light.

05:54:49 [plh]

ack glazou

05:54:49 [Zakim]

glazou, you wanted to ask if speaker knows about mozilla's webL10n javascript i18n / l10n library?

05:55:03 [kaz]

kaz has joined #ebooki18n

05:55:08 [ddavis]

... We don't have media queries in CSS 2 to handle that so you still need JS (unfortunately)

05:55:22 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

05:55:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html kaz

05:55:27 [karl]

q?

05:55:29 [ddavis]

[Change of speaker: kotakagi]

05:55:49 [glazou]

URL for Mozilla's webL10n : https://github.com/fabi1cazenave/webL10n

05:56:03 [ddavis]

[Sorry, speaker is now kawabata]

05:56:27 [ddavis]

kawabata: Like to talk about three topics: metadata, ruby, multilanguage

05:56:38 [ddavis]

... Bit surprised so many ruby topics today

05:57:02 [ddavis]

... Would like to introduce Ateji - refers to kanji (Japanese characters) used phonetically to represent native or borrowed words

05:57:16 [ddavis]

... Used very often in Japanese novels, often used in ruby

05:57:38 [ddavis]

... In this case, ruby is not used for pronunciation but for connotation and meaning

05:57:39 [jdovey]

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05:57:59 [ddavis]

... Many "light novels" have ateji which should be displayed with ruby

05:58:23 [ddavis]

... the ruby above the title shows pronunciation but it is different to regulary pronunciation

05:58:42 [ddavis]

... Metadata of EPUB 3 encapsulates publication information

05:58:44 [karl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_novel → About Light Novel mentioned a few times during the workshop for reference.

05:58:54 [ddavis]

... the problem is that current metadata does not provide ruby support

05:58:59 [ddavis]

... Is it really needed?

05:59:14 [ddavis]

... Many ebook shops & websites just use brackets instead of ruby

05:59:29 [ddavis]

... If it's really needed, we have three possible solutions

05:59:46 [ddavis]

... One is interlinear annotation characters, talked about by Kobayashi-san

05:59:58 [ddavis]

... For example, we can used Unicode

06:00:16 [ddavis]

... The second topic is unencoded characters in metadata.

06:00:34 [ddavis]

... Problem is unencoded or non-JIS chars sometimes appear in book titles

06:00:48 [karl]

Interlinear annotation Unicode character https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_character

06:00:50 [ddavis]

... metadata may not provide the wayto display unencoded chars

06:01:02 [ddavis]

... The reader may not be able to display foreign script

06:01:16 [ddavis]

... Is it enough to just use = for metadata?

06:01:27 [ddavis]

... A possible solution is a font for specific metadata

06:01:54 [ddavis]

... May also use IDC (Ideographic Description Characters)

06:02:11 [ddavis]

... Also IVS (Ideographic Variation ...)

06:02:32 [ddavis]

... For the body, xml:lang is most popular way to specify language

06:02:50 [ddavis]

... Four aspects to language specification

06:03:06 [ddavis]

... Fonts, Text Layout Rules, Hyphenations, Pronunciations and Speech

06:03:24 [ddavis]

... Problem is what if some language is not supported by the reading device?

06:03:34 [shie]

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06:03:46 [ddavis]

... What if the layout requirement is complex such as Chinese font, Japanese layout

06:04:16 [ddavis]

... This was a summary of three issues. Do they really need to be solved?

06:04:19 [ddavis]

... If so, how?

06:04:34 [ddavis]

... Low-end friendly or high-featured solution?

06:05:06 [Norbert]

gigichan

06:05:10 [Norbert]

gigichan

06:05:19 [ddavis]

[Changing speaker to kyoji]

06:05:34 [ddavis]

... Topic: "I want to enrich more fonts in eBooks"

06:05:57 [ddavis]

... Toppan is developing a font for reading ebooks

06:06:11 [ddavis]

... Prototype is Toppan Mincho

06:06:16 [yasuharu]

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06:06:22 [ddavis]

... Mincho font is good for vertical writing Japanese text

06:06:28 [ddavis]

... Also Gothic font

06:06:37 [ddavis]

... Gothic is better for horizontal Japanese text

06:07:02 [ddavis]

... 1. There are currently few fonts to choose from

06:07:10 [ddavis]

... 2. Fonts can be changed by the system

06:07:22 [ddavis]

... 3 There are still too few fonts

06:07:38 [ddavis]

... For ebooks, less that 10 fonts compared to more than 1000 for book

06:07:42 [ddavis]

s/book/books

06:08:05 [ddavis]

... Devices have between 2 and 6 fonts and change what is specified in ebook

06:08:27 [ddavis]

... Issues with East Asian fonts - very large (characters and file size)

06:08:34 [ddavis]

... Expensive and time-consuming to produce

06:09:06 [ddavis]

... We went from text communication to printing to digital communication

06:09:21 [ddavis]

... We should provide reader with text that is 1. easy to read

06:09:26 [ddavis]

... 2. Difficult to misread

06:09:33 [ddavis]

... 3. Has nice appearance

06:09:42 [ddavis]

... Thre things are important for realization

06:09:47 [ddavis]

... 1. Text layout specs

06:09:52 [ddavis]

... 2. Rendering engine

06:09:55 [ddavis]

... 3. Fonts

06:10:25 [ddavis]

... With this, you can perform more natural textual representation to provide a better user experience

06:10:41 [ddavis]

... We need better technical support for embedding fonts

06:10:57 [ddavis]

... Implementation of embedding fonts is not difficult

06:11:11 [ddavis]

... Biggest challenge is distributing free-of-charge fonts

06:11:28 [ddavis]

... Problem is solved in PDF but not in EPUB. Need to consider why not.

06:11:44 [karl]

q+ to ask if there are copyrights on Japanese fonts

06:11:56 [ddavis]

[Discussion time]

06:12:09 [ddavis]

s/Thre/Three

06:12:20 [r12a]

q?

06:13:29 [r12a]

q+

06:13:30 [ddavis]

ivan: To Norbert - What is the implementation of i18n

06:13:34 [r12a]

ack ivan

06:13:34 [Zakim]

ivan, you wanted to ask how wide is time implementations of the I18N API in browsers?

06:13:40 [karl]

Myth? In Japan, typeface has been held not to be covered by copyright, on the ground that it functions primarily as a means of communicating information, rather than to appeal to aesthetic appreciation.[5]— ^ Yagi v. Kashiwa Shobo K.K., II-1 Chosakuken Hanreishu 8 (9 Mar. 1979, Tokyo District Court) (the Typeface Design Case), cited in Karjala, Dennis S.; Sugiyama, Keiji (Autumn, 1988). "Fundamental Concepts in Japanese and American Copyright Law". The A

06:13:40 [karl]

merican Journal of Comparative Law 36 (4): 613, 625–26. JSTOR 840277.

06:13:40 [karl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protection_of_typefaces

06:13:40 [ddavis]

ivan: First implenetation came out in Chrome this year

06:13:50 [ddavis]

s/ivan/Norbert

06:14:02 [ddavis]

Norbert: Firefox will release implementation soon. Microsoft to follow.

06:14:10 [ddavis]

... Not heard from Opera or Apple

06:14:18 [kyoji]

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06:14:21 [ddavis]

ivan: so at the moment it's a Google Chrome implementation?

06:14:36 [ddavis]

Norbert: Google implementation is a Chrome add-on, so not in WebKit

06:15:08 [ddavis]

ivan: Vast majorities of ebook readers at end of line using WebKit

06:15:23 [ddavis]

... so it's not possible to know when they will get the i18n implementation

06:15:29 [r12a]

ack karl

06:15:29 [Zakim]

karl, you wanted to ask if there are copyrights on Japanese fonts

06:15:38 [ddavis]

karl: I often heard that Japanese fonts were not covered by copyright

06:15:46 [ddavis]

... so people can use them freely. Is this true?

06:15:57 [ddavis]

... If so why don't ereaders have more fonts?

06:16:28 [ddavis]

Tahara:

06:16:36 [ddavis]

Tahara: In each font is the creator's name

06:16:46 [kaz]

q+ to ask mainly Norbert about "interaction", also would like the other speakers about their opinions

06:16:56 [ddavis]

Kobayashi: Let me clarify, there is no intellectual property?

06:17:06 [ddavis]

Tahara: There is IP, but you can use it freely

06:17:23 [ddavis]

... For example, you can re-use them as web fonts

06:17:45 [ddavis]

Kobayashi: So we can copy a font to a server and anyone can freely download it?

06:18:10 [ddavis]

Ishii: What Tahara-san is trying to say is fonts are protected by IP law

06:18:19 [Liam-jp]

[I think there are two separate confusing issues, people can use the font in practice by they _are_ protected by copyright]

06:18:22 [ddavis]

... Font technology doesn't have copyright

06:18:35 [Liam-jp]

s/have copyright/have copy protection/

06:18:36 [karl]

"Fundamental Concepts in Japanese and American Copyright Law" http://www.jstor.org/stable/840277

06:18:36 [r12a]

q?

06:18:37 [ddavis]

... I looked at rumour - no idea where it came from

06:19:07 [ddavis]

r12a: In PDF you get Japanese fonts but in ebooks you don't

06:19:18 [ddavis]

... You (kyoji) suggested that embedding was solution

06:19:31 [ddavis]

... Japanese font could be very large - is that an issue?

06:19:43 [ddavis]

kyoji: It's a problem of size?

06:20:01 [ddavis]

r12a: Yes. You might have a small page but the font's file size could be several MB

06:20:20 [ddavis]

kyoji: The average font use is 3,000 characters

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06:20:53 [ddavis]

Kobayashi: If we try to implement the full set it would be around 20,000 characters

06:21:03 [AndChat474201]

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06:21:06 [ddavis]

... But common titles have only around 3,000 chars in their text

06:21:20 [ddavis]

... so it's easy to make a specific subset for a particular book

06:21:25 [r12a]

q?

06:21:27 [ddavis]

... and therefore embed in an ebook

06:21:46 [r12a]

ack

06:21:57 [ddavis]

jdovey: If you're downloading a book with 2MB subset font, with 200 books in your library that's a lot of data.

06:22:10 [r12a]

ack r12a

06:22:10 [ddavis]

... Especially if you're downloading the same font each time

06:22:13 [karl]

font subsetting https://hacks.mozilla.org/2013/03/fantastic-front-end-performance-part-3-big-performance-wins-by-optimizing-fonts-a-node-js-holiday-season-part-8/

06:22:24 [ddavis]

... That's why reading system vendors like to stick to a few nice fonts

06:23:11 [ddavis]

Liam-jp: To Norbert - you mentioned JavaScript API for doing line-breaking

06:23:21 [ddavis]

... When it comes to downloadable/embedded fonts

06:23:29 [r12a]

ack liam

06:23:29 [Zakim]

Liam-jp, you wanted to ask norbert about js api for adding glyphs to fonts on the fly and adding to opentype tables

06:23:33 [ddavis]

... let's suppose you have a form in an ebook

06:23:45 [r12a]

q?

06:23:50 [ddavis]

... if it says "enter your name" your name characters might not be in the embedded font

06:24:08 [ddavis]

... but with JS you could download character fonts on-the-fly. Has this been considered?

06:24:19 [ddavis]

Norbert: It has been considered but not defined yet.

06:24:30 [ddavis]

... TC39 aims to be a very generic platform

06:24:44 [ddavis]

... ECMAScript should be able to used on servers, DVD players, etc...

06:24:58 [ddavis]

... W3C might be able to specify this

06:25:04 [Masakazu_Kitahara]

q+

06:25:33 [ddavis]

Bobby: In Taiwan, there are about 50,000 chars in traditional characters

06:25:45 [ddavis]

... More that 25MB for one font so that same issue

06:26:04 [ddavis]

... There are systems where if I upload my ebook it will generate a subset of the font

06:26:25 [ddavis]

... Regarding JS-generated characters, this issue is more important for trad Chinese than Japanese

06:27:04 [ddavis]

... We want to use the system fonts but in iOS or Android, even Mac OSX, they just have Gothic (sans-serif) but we want to read books in Mincho (serif)

06:27:22 [ddavis]

... Font-face with unicode range could be good

06:27:38 [ddavis]

Kobayashi: As a unicoder...

06:28:15 [ddavis]

... Currently JavaScript/ECMAScript cannot describe all of commonly-used Japanese kanji characters, which are endorsed by Japanese government

06:28:23 [r12a]

q?

06:28:30 [ddavis]

... I'd like to ask Norbert to support UTF-16

06:29:01 [ddavis]

... Let's wrap up the font issue - any questions?

06:29:29 [ddavis]

r12a: You talked about unicode range but there are some characters that are shared between East Asian and Latin text.

06:29:52 [ddavis]

... when you use unicode range, you can't distinguish which space turns up. You get wide or narrow spaces.

06:30:16 [ddavis]

... I've read books containing both Japanese & Chinese. I use the unicode range to solve that problem.

06:30:24 [ddavis]

s/read/written

06:30:52 [kyoji]

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06:31:01 [ddavis]

Masakazu_Kitahara: We have a "book-in-browser" ebook reader

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06:31:06 [r12a]

q?

06:31:13 [AndChat474201]

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06:31:17 [ddavis]

... When we try to use browser fonts, we also allow web fonts

06:31:38 [ddavis]

... Changing to web font - we need to know whether it's allowed

06:31:45 [ddavis]

... Whether it's OK to leave the web font on the server

06:32:00 [ddavis]

... Is it OK if we convert the font?

06:32:22 [ddavis]

... If we serve ebooks, is it OK to change the fonts to web fonts?

06:32:45 [ddavis]

Kobayashi: That's very difficult to answer. A sort of political issue.

06:32:57 [ddavis]

... let me try.

06:33:15 [ddavis]

... Before we jump into discussion of specifications, we need to talk with font vendors

06:33:29 [sam]

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06:33:38 [ddavis]

... In Japan, the situation is very vague for historical reasons

06:33:55 [ddavis]

... Some font vendors went to a lower court

06:34:01 [ddavis]

... but there was no conclusion

06:34:17 [ddavis]

... so it was recommended to make a settlement

06:34:39 [ddavis]

... However, in general, more than ten years ago, there was an example in American law

06:34:43 [ddavis]

... between some font vendors.

06:35:03 [ddavis]

... The conclusion was that there was no IP for the font design

06:35:11 [ddavis]

... but the font name can be protected by law.

06:35:35 [ddavis]

... So Japanese font vendors have been believing we can protect IP with font naming issues and product/software issues

06:35:47 [r12a]

q?

06:35:52 [ddavis]

... Font vendors do not speak up to protect their IP but they make a private contract with their user

06:36:05 [ddavis]

... In that situation, it's very difficult to answer Masakazu_Kitahara's question

06:36:17 [ddavis]

... but now is a good time to openly discuss this.

06:36:31 [ddavis]

... with ebook vendors, font vendors, browser vendors.

06:36:42 [ddavis]

... I'd like to call upon Masakazu_Kitahara to talk with stakeholders.

06:37:03 [ddavis]

kaz: Question to Norbert

06:37:20 [ddavis]

... Norbert mentioned fully interactive ebook. What kind of interactions are expected?

06:37:26 [ddavis]

... Do you have some examples?

06:37:37 [ddavis]

Norbert: It's open to imagination.

06:37:46 [ddavis]

... There's a fine line between ebooks and web applications

06:37:47 [fantasai]

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06:38:20 [ddavis]

... Like textbooks, such as iBooks

06:38:58 [ddavis]

Murasaki: One interesting target is textbook

06:39:12 [ddavis]

... People would like to use epub to distribute textbooks, and HTML5

06:39:23 [ddavis]

... I don't know what will happen - in 2 years it will become clear.

06:39:44 [ddavis]

kaz: HTML5 has started to move towards speech recognition

06:39:51 [ddavis]

... which is interesting for ebooks

06:40:01 [ddavis]

Norbert: This is possible for ebooks in general.

06:40:07 [ddavis]

... For EPUB, not sure.

06:40:26 [ddavis]

... EPUB only has references to HTML5 so at some point, maybe EPUB should be updated

06:40:29 [r12a]

q?

06:40:35 [kaz]

ack k

06:40:35 [Zakim]

kaz, you wanted to ask mainly Norbert about "interaction", also would like the other speakers about their opinions

06:40:37 [ddavis]

... to indicate which parts of HTML5 should be supported.

06:40:38 [r12a]

ack kaz

06:41:03 [ddavis]

Ivan: I have seen some ebook examples which show fancy features

06:41:19 [ddavis]

... technically it's ePUB, customized by Apple

06:41:34 [ddavis]

... In your (Norbert) presentation, you said we need to use a book in e.g. 20 years.

06:41:37 [Masakazu_Kitahara]

q-

06:41:57 [ddavis]

... In my experience, I would try to reduce JS as much as possible because I don't know what I can use in 20 years.

06:42:15 [ddavis]

... We are always in a changing state with wonderful APIs but who implements it, who does not?

06:42:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html fantasai

06:42:32 [ddavis]

... I'm a bit cynical about it but that's the problem I have with JS in ebooks.

06:42:43 [ddavis]

Norbert: Does the book have DRM (joke)?

06:42:51 [ddavis]

... Let's not go there!

06:43:08 [ddavis]

... For JavaScript, anything that works today also has to work in 5 or 10 years.

06:43:21 [ddavis]

Ivan: My worry is not language, it's the set of APIs.

06:44:04 [ddavis]

Markus: EPUB has a preference for declarative syntax but we understand JS is needed for "bling"

06:44:11 [Norbert]

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06:44:12 [ddavis]

... and sometimes crucial e.g. for education.

06:44:30 [ddavis]

... This is why we don'T specify which APIs.

06:44:44 [ddavis]

... For EPUB 3, we knew we would regret it.

06:44:58 [ddavis]

... THe industry is moving from EPUB 2 which didn't allow JS at all.

06:45:13 [ddavis]

... But I doubt there'll be something set in stone in future.

06:45:30 [ddavis]

... iBooks is just one of three EPUB implementations which is most liberal in allowing scripting.

06:45:46 [ddavis]

... But other organisations continue to use EPUB 2 which is not interoperable.

06:46:23 [ddavis]

glazou: To Markus - we need JS to localize ebooks

06:46:34 [ddavis]

... If you want books to be interactive you have to localize the alerts, etc.

06:46:46 [ddavis]

... You're not going to have separate readers for EPUB 2 / 3

06:46:59 [ddavis]

... Therefore readers will have to support scripting eventually.

06:47:06 [ddavis]

... WHat do you think?

06:47:21 [ddavis]

Markus: I think it'S a good thing - desirable.

06:47:39 [ddavis]

... Maybe we'll find ourselves where we'll need a subset of APIs for ebooks in particular

06:47:43 [ddavis]

... Maybe in a year or two

06:47:54 [ddavis]

glazou: So probably a revision of EPUB 2?

06:48:05 [ddavis]

Markus: No, because a lot will have to be redone.

06:48:11 [ddavis]

... Maybe look into EPUB 3

06:48:51 [ddavis]

Kobayashi: We'll now have a short break before conclusion.

06:48:55 [ddavis]

... One small question...

06:48:56 [shige]

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06:49:05 [ddavis]

... about metadata raised by Kawabata-san

06:49:11 [ddavis]

... Any additional comments?

06:49:26 [r12a]

q?

06:49:39 [ddavis]

Kawabata: Metadata has not enough functionality for describing publications

06:49:50 [ddavis]

... I just mentioned a few problems.

06:50:31 [ddavis]

Murasaki Recently had a chance to discuss with decision-making bodies.

06:50:38 [ddavis]

... THey agree this is a mess.

06:50:45 [ddavis]

Ivan: A mess is an understatement

06:51:20 [ddavis]

... Regarding not having enough functionality in metadata, if I use metadata using set vocabulary, I cannot put something that e.g. has ruby.

06:51:27 [ddavis]

... Is this the problem?

06:51:46 [ddavis]

... E.g. if I use Dublin Core in EPUB metadata.

06:52:00 [ddavis]

... That's a pure string, so I can't use ruby. Is that the problem?

06:52:18 [ddavis]

Kawabata: Not only that. Also ordering of surname/given name, etc.

06:52:43 [ddavis]

Ivan: What you say is a real problem. The fact that the Japanese invert the name is the same in my native language.

06:53:06 [ddavis]

... That's a vocab issue and the EPUB allows extended vocabularies, so that doesn't seem very complex.

06:53:30 [ddavis]

... The other problem that you can't add markup in metadata is a bigger problem.

06:53:31 [ddavis]

q+

06:54:30 [ddavis]

Kobayashi: I understand this metadata is a difficult issue

06:54:39 [ddavis]

ddavis: Particularly important for author names

06:54:58 [ddavis]

Markus: EPUB package file is raw XML which doesn't take styles and markup

06:55:05 [ddavis]

... this also applies to phonics

06:55:19 [ddavis]

... The core issue is when you use raw XML which is not extended to allow HTML fragments, etc.

06:55:44 [fantasai]

MikeSmith, Mozilla is holding off on implementing ruby partly due to there not being a CSS spec for it; there's problems with existing implementations we don't want to exacerbate.

06:55:50 [ddavis]

s/phonics/onix

06:56:07 [ddavis]

Murasaki: Bidi, bidi, bidi (sigh)

06:56:32 [ddavis]

Kobayashi: Sometimes plain text is not good enough so let us continue to think of this.

06:56:38 [ddavis]

... but let's have 5 minutes break.

06:57:02 [ddavis]

... Meet back at 16:05 by my Japanese watch.

06:57:06 [ddavis]

[BREAK]

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07:00:39 [MikeSmith]

fantasai, that strikes me as a pretty lame reason. there's no dispute about the basic support. it's what's already been implemented in IE for ages now, and deployed in production by many sites, so it's not going to change. nothings preventing you from implementing that baseline support

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07:07:59 [karen_]

Scribe: Liam Quin, W3C

07:08:11 [Liam-jp]

scribenick: liam

07:08:26 [ivan]

scribenick: liam-jp

07:08:29 [Liam-jp]

r12a: [thanks speakers]

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07:08:42 [Liam-jp]

r12a: what we want to get out of the Workshop...

07:08:52 [Liam-jp]

is a set of points to put to the i18n WG in particular.

07:08:57 [Liam-jp]

This is when we do that.

07:08:59 [Koji]

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07:09:15 [Liam-jp]

So I need to hear from you what the concerns are related to [i18n]

07:09:54 [Liam-jp]

The points specifically relating to Internationalization to put to the [Digital Publishing] Interest Group [at W3C].

07:10:05 [Liam-jp]

[opens the floor]

07:10:35 [Liam-jp]

r12a: are we done? is everything fine?

07:10:55 [Liam-jp]

Marcus: starting from the end because that's all I remember now! Metadata values containing rich markup ...

07:11:06 [Liam-jp]

ruby, directionality, maybe custom embedded fonts

07:11:14 [Liam-jp]

e.g. use of the Unicode private use area

07:11:38 [Liam-jp]

so maybe not a requirement for the open web platform, but in metadata that the industry has and in epub it's a problem

07:12:10 [Liam-jp]

Ivan: It is a problem for the IG, in that if this is a documented requirement it comes back to the those WGs responsible

07:12:18 [Liam-jp]

for the serialization of metadata and for metadata

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07:13:08 [Liam-jp]

Bert: I heard about ruby, that it was mentioned as specific to Japanese. Are there more examples, where we need to compare different systems together?

07:13:33 [Liam-jp]

Maybe the IG can collect examples from multiple languages and compare requirements.

07:14:02 [Liam-jp]

r12a: I'm not sure there's a language-specific requirement for annotation-like mechanisms in other script but there may be a general requirement for glosses ...

07:14:18 [Liam-jp]

but the specific linguistic issue is the ruby we use in Japanese and Chinese.

07:14:48 [Liam-jp]

Bert: I'm thinking about hyphenation - I know about french, german, english... is that enough to know about other languages? What about linebreaking rules?

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07:15:01 [Liam-jp]

footnote placement, is that universal?

07:15:15 [Liam-jp]

Our CSS drafts, we only know about a few languages.

07:15:30 [Liam-jp]

I'd like to know how generic these things are in different cultures.

07:15:39 [Liam-jp]

glazou: Hebrew has another example: ...

07:15:59 [Liam-jp]

books for young children often use a mechanism like ruby to show pronunciation, since Hebrew has no vowels

07:16:31 [Liam-jp]

I'm thinking also of poetry, the way a line that overflows is formatted is different between languages.

07:16:48 [Liam-jp]

We [CSS] can't collect examples, we need help.

07:17:05 [Liam-jp]

r12a [asks if it's Hebrew cantillation]

07:17:15 [Liam-jp]

glazou: also words printed over Hebrew letters sometimes.

07:18:10 [Liam-jp]

Ivan: We had the discussion about fonts. I am not an expert on that. Whether it's necessary/possible to extend woff formats to be better prepared for this partial font specification/download

07:18:32 [Liam-jp]

Bert: I think that's not for woff, but for opentype

07:19:17 [ddavis]

q-

07:19:31 [Liam-jp]

r12a, others: subsetting is done.

07:19:59 [Liam-jp]

aaa: [via translation] the essence of fonts, there are more than 1,000 fonts available on paper, but for ebooks only a very few.

07:20:24 [Liam-jp]

Rights-holders of fonts have not given permission to make those fonts available for downloading.

07:20:30 [Liam-jp]

Ivan: this is not a technical issue

07:20:46 [Liam-jp]

r12a: [making a list, projecting, asks people to correct the list if needed]

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07:24:02 [Liam-jp]

Hoika: pagination of vertical writing mode issues

07:24:06 [Liam-jp]

the position of images in the float

07:24:10 [Liam-jp]

what are the positions of text

07:24:14 [Liam-jp]

this relates to pagination

07:24:16 [Liam-jp]

and also RUBY

07:24:33 [Liam-jp]

if Rubies are more than one pages then can be related to vertical writing mode

07:24:58 [Liam-jp]

r12a: how is that an i18n issue?

07:25:13 [Liam-jp]

Koji: we have an issue in epub WG to centre text but in vertical flow, and we think this is international issue because ...

07:25:23 [Liam-jp]

many Japanese are discussing why this only appears in Japan.

07:25:39 [Liam-jp]

Usually you want to put things above centre, which makes good balance

07:26:01 [Liam-jp]

from design perspective makes more sense to centre in page

07:26:15 [Liam-jp]

CSS doesn't provide good way to centre in vertical dimension

07:26:41 [Liam-jp]

glazou: is that related to ruby and page/line/column break, when the ruby box is supposed to be broken into pieces? and it's no longer readable?

07:26:57 [Liam-jp]

when the lubeys are processed in relation ot the pagiantion

07:27:07 [Liam-jp]

for example the ruby characters are on one page and the next have main text

07:27:13 [Liam-jp]

and this can happen in pagination

07:27:22 [Liam-jp]

s/when/[unknown speaker]/

07:27:37 [fantasai]

That sounds like a bug

07:27:38 [Liam-jp]

glazou: this relates to Japanese but also to CSS and breaking.

07:28:17 [Liam-jp]

r12a: I think it relates to nakiwakare, the really long stuff we saw wrapping.

07:28:53 [Liam-jp]

Alan: there was an issue from Bert about rich formatting in CSS generated content

07:29:02 [Liam-jp]

[e.g. maths or ruby in running headers]

07:29:17 [Liam-jp]

r12a: similar to the metadata problem right?

07:29:44 [Liam-jp]

Bert: generated content is often derived from the document but reassembled by the stylesheet.

07:29:52 [Liam-jp]

glazou: it can be in an attribute

07:30:30 [Liam-jp]

Liam: an example would be ruby in a running hader.

07:30:35 [Liam-jp]

s/hader/header/

07:31:12 [Liam-jp]

ddavis: requirement of fonts that are different, e.g. you have a form where you type in your name, you might need a font that's not embedded or in the device.

07:31:27 [Liam-jp]

Norbert: there was a proposal for a JS API for fonts [to add glyphs on the fly]

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07:31:52 [Liam-jp]

Takami: annotations for sample preview conetnt

07:32:18 [Liam-jp]

In Japan some contents are maybe has some important element like illustrations or TOC,

07:32:35 [Liam-jp]

so how to make sample preview files is important for internationalization of ebooks i think.

07:33:40 [Liam-jp]

[people discuss Japanese name of frontispiece illustration]

07:34:09 [Liam-jp]

Alan: when we discussed translating manga caption it was mentioned it was hard to fit the translation in a balloon

07:34:15 [Liam-jp]

so some sort of content-fitting for translations.

07:34:28 [kaz]

[ Kuchi-e (direct translation is mouth figure) ]

07:34:51 [Liam-jp]

glazou: if you have a vertical bubble in a Japanese manga it might be completely unsuited to Western text.

07:35:08 [kaz]

q?

07:35:35 [Liam-jp]

r12a: how do you translate the manga sound effects? [[ *BAM* *ZZZ* *THWAP*?! ]]

07:35:38 [kaz]

q+

07:35:58 [Liam-jp]

[[ AAAAAARRRRRGGHHHHHHGHGHGH!!! ]]

07:36:26 [Liam-jp]

r12a: I'm going to write "sound effects" and not "onomatopoeia"!

07:37:05 [Liam-jp]

Ivan: Japanese community has produced a very strong example with the document they produced on [layout]. It affected CSS. We have others happening now.

07:37:11 [plh]

"Cocorico" in french, "cock-a-doodle-doo" in english, how does it translate in Japanese?

07:37:31 [Liam-jp]

One q. is whether these docs were centered on the Web or did they look at requirements of [printed] books?

07:37:53 [glazou]

plh, thanks for using the poultry example and not the duck one ;-)

07:37:56 [Liam-jp]

The other question is what can we, and the book industry, do to extend that to other countries, for Arabig, Hebrew Mongolian, Russian

07:38:17 [Liam-jp]

e.g. typesetting of mathematics in Arabic

07:39:07 [Liam-jp]

r12a: first question - the JLREQ doc went beyond a Web page to page layout,

07:39:15 [Liam-jp]

but was not only only focused on print documents.

07:39:19 [bert_]

q+

07:39:20 [Liam-jp]

Plans are the same for Korean.

07:39:26 [Liam-jp]

Indic, unclear yet.

07:40:07 [Liam-jp]

Japanese has particular requirements, the page layout is very Japanese for page layout. We didn't deal with mathematics.

07:40:28 [Liam-jp]

Ivan: what can we do to get Arabic, [and Russian] mathematical layout?

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07:41:00 [Liam-jp]

Ivan: is vertical text important?

07:41:13 [Liam-jp]

Murata: quite a few people think it's crucial.

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07:41:29 [Liam-jp]

r12a: what haven't we yet solved?

07:41:46 [Liam-jp]

someone: I think we already discussed congo?

07:42:01 [Liam-jp]

s/congo/kanbun/

07:42:47 [Liam-jp]

koboyashi: there's also horizontal, not only vertical.

07:43:18 [Liam-jp]

r12a: [asks about priority of writing modes

07:43:25 [bert_]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/NOTE-arabic-math-20060131/ The Math WG wrote a W3C Note about math and bidi

07:43:50 [Liam-jp]

takase: one comment from publisher in Japan: we will not deliver content in ebooks if it cannot handle vertical layout.

07:44:01 [Liam-jp]

joe: kobo considers it a must-have.

07:44:10 [Liam-jp]

r12a: I am going to include that it is important.

07:44:37 [Norbert]

s/include/conclude/

07:44:51 [Liam-jp]

bobby: traditional chinese requires also vertical layout intermixed with Latin words.

07:45:04 [Liam-jp]

extension is for white space before/after Latin words.

07:45:37 [Liam-jp]

fantasi: a large part has been waiting for TR50

07:46:13 [Liam-jp]

[Ellika/Fantasai interoduces herself]

07:46:28 [Liam-jp]

also a few related issues open on writing modes

07:46:33 [stearns]

s/TR50/UTR50/

07:46:37 [Norbert]

s/fantasi/fantasai/

07:46:38 [Liam-jp]

as far as autospace, we defer to CSS text level 4

07:46:39 [glazou]

s/Ellika/Elika

07:47:08 [Liam-jp]

r12a: is it important that text 4 is delayed?

07:47:12 [Liam-jp]

Bobby: I think it's OK

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07:47:25 [Liam-jp]

it could be late.

07:47:43 [Liam-jp]

Koji: I'm not sure what the IG will handle and what CSS WG will handle...

07:48:07 [Liam-jp]

Customizeable glyph orientation, so tha tpulishers can define which glyph appear in which orientation for a particular book

07:48:14 [kaz]

q?

07:48:25 [Liam-jp]

instead of using css transforms to rotate individual characters

07:48:39 [Liam-jp]

The other issue is that author wants to customise line-breaking

07:48:52 [Liam-jp]

that's also in the queue for future css text.

07:48:58 [Liam-jp]

[kinsoku rules]

07:49:27 [Liam-jp]

glazou: someone came to me about the way we select the language in CSS, it's based on elements, no media queries for that.

07:49:37 [Liam-jp]

So they'd like to have language-based media queries.

07:50:08 [Liam-jp]

fantasai: I think that's related to people wanting to relate selectors together.

07:50:37 [Liam-jp]

Bert: Ivan talked about these IGs or task forces, might refer to official governement docments

07:50:48 [Liam-jp]

Can the IG help us get copies of official rules

07:50:56 [Liam-jp]

like [JIS 4051]

07:51:25 [Liam-jp]

glazou: in France you have a spec for government documents; some old-fashioned books use it, but modern books use only part of it.

07:51:30 [Liam-jp]

So it's important but not enough.

07:51:42 [Liam-jp]

Bert: Yes, we need the doc and its status.

07:51:55 [shie]

-> [16:43] s/takase:/takami:/

07:52:04 [Liam-jp]

komoto: ministry of affairs in Japan... vertical text layout:

07:52:27 [ddavis]

s/komoto/Okamoto

07:52:27 [Liam-jp]

Maybe you had the impression that vertical layout is not a priority issue in Japan.

07:52:27 [Koji]

s/komoto/okamoto/

07:52:28 [kaz]

s/komoto:/okamoto:/

07:52:34 [Liam-jp]

Many Japanese only write in horizontal layout

07:52:42 [kaz]

q-

07:52:57 [Liam-jp]

Number of people writing vertically is decreasing, but many printed materials in vertical mode exist.

07:53:21 [bert_]

q-

07:53:22 [Liam-jp]

We usually talk to industry members and they are struggling about the vertical layout spec!

07:53:38 [Liam-jp]

Also, there is a survey that the majority of jp Internet users are in favour of vertical layout.

07:53:53 [Liam-jp]

So, we strongly suggest that the vertical layout is a priority issue in IG discussion.

07:54:02 [Liam-jp]

This is why the government is involved, and why my colelague andI are here.

07:54:06 [Liam-jp]

s/andI/and I/

07:54:15 [Liam-jp]

r12a: thank you.

07:54:45 [Liam-jp]

r12a: I'm hoping we can prioritize these next week.

07:54:51 [Liam-jp]

What about ruby, is that important?

07:55:34 [Liam-jp]

ruby and bopomofo ruby

07:56:07 [Liam-jp]

bobby: I don't have an answer about ruby in Japan, I have asked publishers.

07:56:16 [Liam-jp]

s/ruby/ruby-align/

07:57:30 [Liam-jp]

fantasai: one issue I'd like to distinguish is ruby as positioned in Taiwanese documents and zhuyin fuhao when used in vertical text, positioning issues, tone mark placement needs to be correct ...

07:57:36 [Liam-jp]

it's a text layout issue, not a ruby issue.

07:58:31 [Liam-jp]

[zhuyin fuhao is the Chinese name for bopomofo]

07:58:34 [fantasai]

it applies equally to vertical text, not just to ruby text

07:58:43 [Liam-jp]

person: one comment about ruby.

07:58:58 [Liam-jp]

A Japanese newspaper publisher is using their news articles online, with ruby.

07:59:04 [Liam-jp]

It's not vertical layout.

07:59:14 [Liam-jp]

In Japan not only books or ebooks but also online articles.

07:59:52 [Liam-jp]

Koji: I heard from publishers who want different styles in horizontal vs vertical

07:59:59 [Liam-jp]

e.g. using Japanese digits in vertical flow

08:00:04 [Liam-jp]

and arabic in horizontal

08:00:08 [Liam-jp]

and wantign it to be automated.

08:00:24 [Liam-jp]

s/wantign/wanting/

08:00:36 [Liam-jp]

Koboyashi: similar to date and times

08:01:18 [Liam-jp]

kaz: I brought some Manga, Japanese and Chines from Taiwan, and here are some digits. ...

08:01:31 [Liam-jp]

[shows how they are different]

08:01:55 [Liam-jp]

Chinese uses Arabic digits 90 degrees rotated clockwise, not Japanese digits.

08:01:59 [shie]

from [16:58] comment is Takami, sorry.

08:02:10 [karl]

example of Web service adding Ruby for everything in the text.

08:02:10 [karl]

http://yomoyomo.jp/?yyparam=00000101&l=&t=http://www.asahi.com/sports/update/0604/TKY201306040103.html

08:02:41 [Liam-jp]

Bert: my lawyer friends always say we need footnotes; other people in specific disciplines have requirements, I'd like to hear about those too.

08:02:49 [karl]

compare the layout in between webkit and firefox

08:05:10 [Liam-jp]

r12a: I'll try and put this list into a survey form, will send you all a link to it, and ask you which are urgent, moderately or not urgent, and then we will summarise the results.

08:05:47 [Liam-jp]

Ivan: I hope this is not the last time we discuss these things

08:05:55 [Liam-jp]

I'd like to see at least some of you join the Interest Group.

08:06:55 [ivan]

rrsagent, draft minutes

08:06:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html ivan

08:07:03 [Liam-jp]

r12a: thank you to our sponsors, to the logistics people, to the interpreters.

08:07:25 [Liam-jp]

There's another Workshop in Paris in September - process flow and books

08:07:44 [Liam-jp]

[technical session adjourned]

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12:07:13 [r12a]

rrsagent, draft minutes

12:07:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html r12a

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