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<trackbot> Date: 31 May 2013
<andisnow> scribe: Mary_Jo_Mueller
<scribe> scribenick: MaryJo
<andisnow> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/RevisitingProgrammaticallySetDetermined/results
We had general agreement on the proposals, with a slight edit from Peter.
Discussion on the placement of the phrase 'including user agents' in the note.
<andisnow> Note: Software, INCLUDING USER AGENTS, typically makes content programmatically determinable through the use of accessibility services of the platform, INCLUDING APPLICATION OR USER AGENT SOFTWARE ACTING AS A PLATFORM"
The key point we need to convey in the note is that the path to 'programmatically determined' is through the use of platform accessibility services.
Documents get this done through software that interprets the markup and maps it to the platform accessibility services (a user agent acting as a platform).
<Loic> Software typically makes content programmatically determinable through the use of accessibility services of the platform. Documents typically makes content programmatically determinable through the use of accessibility services of the user agent.
<korn> Note: Software typically makes content programmatically determinable through the use of accessibility services of the platform. Non-Web documents typically make content programmatically determinable through markup, and the document's user agent then typically exposes that markup through the use of accessibility services of the platform.
<andisnow> +1 to Peter's proposal
<Mike_P> +1 to Peter's proposal
<korn> For "set": Note: Software typically enables content to be programmatically set through the use of accessibility services of the platform. Non-Web documents typically enables content to be programmatically set through markup, and the document's user agent then typically modifies that markup a the direction of use of accessibility services of the platform.
<andisnow> Note: Software typically makes content programmatically determinable through the use of accessibility services of the platform. Non-Web documents typically make content programmatically determinable through markup, and the document's user agent then typically exposes that markup to assistive technology through the use of accessibility services of the platform or other accessibility supported means.
<Mike_P> +1 to Andi's augmented explanation
<greggvanderheiden> Software typically enables content to be programmatically set through the use of accessibility services of the platform. Non-Web documents typically enables content to be programmatically by using the accessibility services of the user agent, which serves as the intermediate platform for the non-web content.
<Mike_P> +q
<andisnow_> Just correcting some typos in GV's proposal: Software typically enables content to be programmatically DETERMINED through the use of accessibility services of the platform. Non-Web documents typically ENABLE content to be programmatically DETERMINED by using the accessibility services of the user agent, which serves as the intermediate platform for the non-web DOCUMENT.
<andisnow_> For non-Web documents, the user agent serves as the intermediate platform for the non-web DOCUMENT.
<greggvanderheiden> Software typically enables content to be programmatically DETERMINED through the use of accessibility services of the platform. For non-Web documents, the user agent serves as the intermediate platform for the non-web DOCUMENT.
<andisnow> Just correcting some typos in GV's proposal: Software typically enables content to be programmatically DETERMINED through the use of accessibility services of the platform. Non-Web documents typically ENABLE content to be programmatically DETERMINED by using the accessibility services of the user agent, which serves as the intermediate platform for the non-web DOCUMENT.
<greggvanderheiden> A computing platform includes a hardware architecture and a software framework (including application frameworks), where the combination allows software to run. Typical platforms include a computer architecture, operating system and Runtime libraries.[1]
<greggvanderheiden> wikipedia
<korn> Note: Software typically enables content to be programmatically determined through the use of accessibility services of the platform. Non-Web documents typically enable content to be programmatically determined by using the accessibility services of the user agent.
RESOLUTION: Accept the proposal for 'programmatically determined' as amended in the meeting.
<andisnow> For programmatically set: Note: Software typically enables content to be programmatically set through the use of accessibility services of the platform. Non-Web documents typically enable content to be programmatically set by using the accessibility services of the user agent.
RESOLUTION: Accept the proposal for 'programmatically set' as amended in the meeting.
The items in this survey are to go to the WCAG working group to update the INTENT for these SC.
<andisnow> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/misc20130531/results
<andisnow> Sometimes content is primarily intended to create a specific sensory experience that words cannot fully capture. One example could be a symphony performance where the intent is to allow the user to hear that particular performance. Another example could be the image of a painting, where the INTENT of the image is to let users know what [a painter's work] look like. For such content, text alternatives at least identify the non-text content with a descr[CUT]
<andisnow> label and where possible, additional descriptive text. If there is another reason for including the content in the page (for example [as an exercise to identify] an impressionist painting) and the intended information can be described it is helpful to include that information as part of the text alternative(s).
<andisnow> Sometimes content is primarily intended to create a specific sensory experience that words cannot fully capture. One example could be a symphony performance where the intent is to allow the user to hear that particular performance. Another example could be the image of a painting, where the INTENT of the image is to let users know what [a painter's work] looks like. For such content, text alternatives at least identify the non-text content with a[CUT]
<andisnow> descriptive label and where possible, additional descriptive text. If there is another reason for including the content in the page (for example [as an exercise to identify] an impressionist painting) and the intended information can be described THE SUCCESS CRITERIA REQUIRES that information TO BE INCLUDED as part of the text alternative(s).
<greggvanderheiden> then it is no longer a pure sensory experience
<andisnow> Sometimes content is primarily intended to create a specific sensory experience that words cannot fully capture. One example could be a symphony performance where the intent is to allow the user to hear that particular performance. Another example could be the image of a painting, where the INTENT of the image is to let users know what [a painter's work] looks like. For such content, text alternatives at least identify the non-text content with a[CUT]
<andisnow> descriptive label and where possible, additional descriptive text. If there is another reason for including the content in the page (for example [as an exercise to identify] an impressionist painting) and the intended information can be described THEN IT IS NO LONGER A PURE SENSORY EXPERIENCE.
RESOLUTION: Accept the proposal for 1.1.1 INTENT as amended in the meeting.
*** Returned to the 'programmatically determined' topic.
<korn> Note: Software typically enables content to be programmatically set through the use of accessibility services of the platform. Non-Web documents typically enable content to be programmatically set THROUGH THE USE OF accessibility services of the user agent.
The above is an editorial change to 'programmatically set' and 'programmatically determined'.
*** Back to the miscellaneous issues survey.
SC 3.3.4: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/misc20130531/results#xq1
<andisnow> This success criterion does not intend to cover scenarios where the legal commitments or financial transactions are made that cannot be controlled even with a properly designed page. An example could be data usage charges from Internet service providers that happen just by accessing any Web page. Another example could be the use of a web-based mail service to send an e-mail that confirms a product purchase. The web-based mail service cannot know that the
<andisnow> e-mail sent will cause a financial transaction.
RESOLUTION: Accept the proposal for 3.3.4 INTENT as amended in the meeting.
SC 3.2.2 Intent: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/misc20130531/results#xq2
<greggvanderheiden> 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation: Navigational mechanisms that are repeated on multiple Web pages within a set of Web pages occur in the same relative order each time they are repeated, unless a change is initiated by the user. (Level AA)
<greggvanderheiden> 3.2.2 On Input: Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behavior before using the component. (Level A)
Users might be alerted during data entry automatically without submitting the data, which is helpful as the user gets feedback right away and can fix the problem without submitting a full form.
However, if focus is automatically moved away from the field (e.g. it is moved to a dialog), it might be confusing to the user if they aren't warned about this behavior.
There are WAI-ARIA methods to provide error messages, such as a live region, to let them know they made the error without moving focus away from the field.
<Mike_P> +1
This proposal wasn't accepted by the group.
*** Returned to the 'programmatically determined' topic.
<korn> Software typically enables content to be programmatically determined through the use of accessibility services of software. Non-Web documents typically enable content to be programmatically determined through the use of accessibility services of the user agent
<korn> We are re-opening programmatically set, determined; accessibility services, principal 4 and guideline 4.1
<korn> Also to look at defining "platform"
<korn> And that work would include moving "accessibility services of sw" to be "accessibility services of the platform"
RESOLUTION: Re-open "programmatically determined", "programmatically set", and "accessibility services of software" (to use platform), and principal 4 and guideline 4.1
There are six remaining action items.
<andisnow> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open
Action 81 - Andi made a proposal to remove a phrase so this needs to be brought up in a survey.
<trackbot> Error finding '81'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/users>.
<andisnow> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/81
RESOLUTION: Accept proposal in Action 81 as written.
<korn> AI-81 is in https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/edits-for-michael-post-2nd-public-draft now
For action 95 Andi made a proposal to the list that sounds reasonable, so editors will have to take a look at that and incorporate into our document. 'Task force' is also something that need to be addressed as part of this action.
<andisnow> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/glossary5/results#xq7
The change of context in action 96 is not a change of user agents (from FF to IE), but a change of context within the user agent (e.g. FF to Adobe reader).
Is it considered a change of context if you're in a Word document and when you step to an imbedded spreadsheet the chrome of the program changes to the context of Excel for spreadsheet interaction so you can edit the spreadsheet?
This would be a change of context, so would fail the SC. So the user should have to tab to the embedded element, and press enter or do some action to cause the chrome to change to allow editing.
<greggvanderheiden> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/complete-diff.html#content-structure-separation-programmatic
Peter will work on a note for either 'change of context' or for 3.2.1.
<korn> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#structuredef
<korn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/97
<korn> The problem is the glossary term says:
<korn> structure - The way the parts of a Web page are organized in relation to each other; and the' way a collection of Web pages is organized
<korn> And 1.3.1 says: "Information, structure, and relationships conveyed through presentation can be programmatically determined or are available in text."
<korn> But 1.3.1 doesn't apply to "sets of web pages"
<andisnow> from the 3 May minutes: PACKAGING TEXT: the WCAG2ICT was examining the definition of STRUCTURE and had trouble understanding how structure of pages related, since there was no mention of structure of pages in the success criteria themselves. The following example was put forward by one member. It this an example of what you meant? If so can you add it to Understanding WCAG 2.0 ? If not, what did it mean?
<korn> Andi - I'm thinking this might have been a WCAG errata
<andisnow> but I think it should be "structure of A COLLECTION of pages", not just the structure of pages
<korn> Andi - Since "structure" is ONLY used in 1.3.1 and 1.3.1 doesn't speak to sets / collections of pages, bullet 2 of "structure" should be dropped.
<andisnow> and here is the example that is referenced in the above text: For example, a web page that shows a site map depicting the structure of the web site visually must present the information in text or markup so that the structure of the site is programmatically determinable or presented in text
<korn> And I think it might have been in the WCAG errata
<korn> Yes, but that is of the PRESENTATION of a set of pages, as presented on a single page.
<greggvanderheiden> everyone please go to 1. You can join the meeting FREE by using the following URL
<greggvanderheiden> https://www3.gotomeeting.com/join/705233502
<greggvanderheiden> yes Go To Meeting will allow us to talk and prep for next weeks meeting so we can close these
<greggvanderheiden> I need to understand my Action item to work on it
<greggvanderheiden> https://www3.gotomeeting.com/join/705233502
<David> ./me let's keep this irc for minutes
<greggvanderheiden> http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/errata/
<greggvanderheiden> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/AlmostFinal/
<greggvanderheiden> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Antepenultimate
<korn> http://www.w3.org/2013/05/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item03
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