IRC log of forms on 2013-05-29
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:44:00 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/29-forms-irc
- 14:44:02 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 14:44:02 [Zakim]
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- Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
- 14:44:04 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
- 14:44:05 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
- 14:44:05 [trackbot]
- Date: 29 May 2013
- 14:44:35 [Steven]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0023
- 14:44:43 [Steven]
- Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0023
- 14:44:49 [Steven]
- Regrets: Philip
- 14:44:53 [Steven]
- Chair: Steven
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- 14:55:44 [alain]
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- 15:00:48 [Zakim]
- IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
- 15:00:56 [Zakim]
- +??P26
- 15:00:58 [Steven]
- zakim, I am ?
- 15:00:58 [Zakim]
- +Steven; got it
- 15:01:12 [ebruchez]
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- +[IPcaller]
- 15:02:12 [Steven]
- zakim, [ is alain
- 15:02:12 [Zakim]
- +alain; got it
- 15:02:26 [nvdbleek]
- zakim, code?
- 15:02:26 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
- 15:02:37 [Zakim]
- +ebruchez
- 15:03:24 [Zakim]
- +??P39
- 15:03:32 [nvdbleek]
- zakim, I am ??P39
- 15:03:32 [Zakim]
- +nvdbleek; got it
- 15:04:29 [nvdbleek]
- scribe: nvdbleek
- 15:04:36 [Steven]
- Topic: ACTION-1949 - Add note about use of var with other scripting
- 15:04:36 [Steven]
- languages
- 15:04:36 [Steven]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0020.html
- 15:05:34 [nvdbleek]
- Steven: Looks alright for me
- 15:05:45 [nvdbleek]
- nvdbleek: Looks fine for me too
- 15:06:01 [nvdbleek]
- Steven: alain did you have a chance to look at it?
- 15:06:51 [nvdbleek]
- alain: It's ok for me
- 15:07:02 [nvdbleek]
- Steven: Erik thank you very much
- 15:07:10 [Steven]
- close action-1949
- 15:07:10 [trackbot]
- Closed ACTION-1949 Add note about use of var with other scripting languages..
- 15:07:13 [nvdbleek]
- Topic: ACTION-1947 - Import the XPath 3.0 serialize() function to XForms 2.0
- 15:07:14 [nvdbleek]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0021.html
- 15:07:16 [Steven]
- Topic: ACTION-1947 - Import the XPath 3.0 serialize() function to XForms
- 15:07:16 [Steven]
- 2.0
- 15:07:16 [Steven]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0021.html
- 15:07:56 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: For this one I had a few more questions
- 15:08:38 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: The way things are structured, Xpath 3.0 defines the function, the serialisation and the parameters are defined in XSLT and XQuery Serialization 3.0
- 15:08:43 [unl]
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- 15:09:19 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: The serialisation spec allows you to extend the basic functionality, by default you can specify the method and some other parameters
- 15:09:40 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: I think the parameters aren't mandatory to implement
- 15:09:54 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: you can specify your own in your own namespace
- 15:10:23 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: I added a JSON serialisation, relevant pruning and validation
- 15:10:34 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: they are all in our namespace
- 15:10:59 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: nvdbleek already commented on some of my questions
- 15:11:47 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: historically yes and no are used, but we use true and false, what should we use, maybe support both
- 15:12:27 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: The next question is what about failure, e.g. json serialisation may fail if you are serialising arbitrary XML
- 15:12:43 [Zakim]
- +unl
- 15:13:00 [nvdbleek]
- Steven: Certain things get ignored, I don't remember if JSON serialisation can fail
- 15:13:20 [nvdbleek]
- alain: If it doesn't fail, you could miss data
- 15:13:38 [ebruchez]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/index.php?title=XPath_Expressions_Module&diff=3800&oldid=3750#The_serialize.28.29_Function
- 15:13:54 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: there is another error case, when you enable validate and the serialised item isn't valid
- 15:14:24 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: On error we could return either an empty string or we could throw a dynamic error
- 15:14:47 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: I think we should throw an error
- 15:15:11 [nvdbleek]
- alain: There is already an event
- 15:16:17 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: I don't like function sending events, because then you need to be able to send an event in the middle of evaluating an XPath expression, which could be handled. It works for submission because it is triggered in an action
- 15:16:35 [nvdbleek]
- alain: How can you catch a dynamic error in XPath?
- 15:17:00 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: XQuery has a try/catch mechanism but XPath doesn't has it
- 15:17:06 [ebruchez]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-30/#id-try-catch
- 15:18:34 [nvdbleek]
- nvdbleek: There are already other XPath functions that throw dynamic exception, we might add exception handling in a future version of the spec
- 15:19:24 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: When you do text serialisation you won't know the difference between serialising an empty element or an exception
- 15:19:38 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: I think throwing an error is the right way to go
- 15:19:49 [nvdbleek]
- nvdbleek: +1 for throwing a dynamic error
- 15:20:56 [nvdbleek]
- alain: I would like to have media type as a serialisation parameter, are they all boolean
- 15:21:18 [nvdbleek]
- alain: why not use media type to configure the serialisation method
- 15:22:11 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: Because we decided to go for the xpath 3.0 serialise function. They have a serialisation method text, html, xml
- 15:22:22 [nvdbleek]
- alain: They are not media types
- 15:22:39 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: They are indeed not media types, they are just values
- 15:22:57 [ebruchez]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-xquery-serialization-30/#serparam
- 15:23:16 [nvdbleek]
- method:An expanded QName with a null namespace URI, and the local part of the name equal to one of xml, xhtml, html or text, or having a non-null namespace URI. If the namespace URI is non-null, the parameter specifies an implementation-defined output method.
- 15:23:42 [nvdbleek]
- Steven: It does a mediatype
- 15:23:55 [nvdbleek]
- … parameter as well
- 15:24:08 [nvdbleek]
- media-type: A string of Unicode characters specifying the media type (MIME content type) [RFC2046]; the charset parameter of the media type MUST NOT be specified explicitly in the value of the media-type parameter. If the destination of the serialized output is annotated with a media type, this parameter MAY be used to provide such an annotation. For example, it MAY be used to set the media type in an HTTP header.
- 15:24:38 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: In our case we couldn't use media-type because it doesn't influence the method parameter
- 15:25:17 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: the supported parameters depend on the method parameter
- 15:25:53 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: The spec doesn't say implement everything in the document, there are a lot of may's in the spec
- 15:26:09 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: It is very flexible
- 15:28:02 [nvdbleek]
- Steven: alain doesn't like that this isn't fully in sync with the xforms submission because xforms uses media-type to drive the serialisation method
- 15:29:01 [nvdbleek]
- nvdbleek: I think we should go for extending the value space of method by adding xforms:json and xfroms:csv
- 15:30:25 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: I also think we should go for the xpath 3.0 function, I don't like the xpath 3.0 way of specifying the serialisation parameters, but we don't have to do all the specification work
- 15:30:40 [nvdbleek]
- Steven: Are you OK with it
- 15:30:50 [nvdbleek]
- alain: If we add CSV I'm OK with it
- 15:31:41 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: Most standard boolean serialization parameters are "yes" and "no".
- 15:31:42 [nvdbleek]
- Should we use that too, or "true" and "false"? Or accept both?
- 15:32:13 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: that is for xforms:relevance and xforms:validate
- 15:32:25 [nvdbleek]
- alain: I would like to go with yes and no
- 15:32:32 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: That's fine for me
- 15:32:55 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: Is it unexpected to users that, by default, non-relevant nodes are pruned? This is consistent with xforms:submission
- 15:34:22 [nvdbleek]
- nvdbleek: I think we should go for pruning by default
- 15:34:28 [Steven]
- agree
- 15:34:52 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: I'm not sure about the xforms:validate parameter
- 15:35:53 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: We have a valid() function, if you want to ensure that serialisation only happens when data is valid, you can use the valid() function
- 15:37:19 [Zakim]
- -alain
- 15:37:33 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: If we keep the xforms:validate parameter we have to specify what should happen when validation is on and you have invalid nodes
- 15:37:45 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 15:39:07 [ebruchez]
- if (valid(foo)) then serialize(foo) else ''
- 15:39:19 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: you don't want to run the validation process while evaluating XPath expressions, consequently the data shouldn't be re-validated while running the serialize function
- 15:39:40 [nvdbleek]
- nvdbleek: I'm in havoc of dropping the xforms:validate parameter
- 15:39:49 [nvdbleek]
- alain: +1 for removing xforms:validate parameter
- 15:40:31 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: How do we link to other specifications
- 15:42:01 [Steven]
- s/havoc/favor/
- 15:42:07 [Steven]
- +1
- 15:42:22 [nvdbleek]
- nvdbleek: We add those to the references and and link to the reference from within the spec, We also point to dated versions of other specifications
- 15:42:48 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: nvdbleek comment "Shouldn't the default value for xforms:relevant be true (currently specified value is false)"
- 15:44:02 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: We agreed to prune by default
- 15:44:35 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: Let me double check the submission spec to make sure if it is specified correctly
- 15:45:53 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: OK, you are correct, the default value should be true
- 15:46:30 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: Others comments are no longer relevant because we dropped the xforms:validate parameter
- 15:46:46 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: I can update the text accordingly
- 15:47:31 [nvdbleek]
- Topic: ACTION-1943: Erik investigate why XPath 3 chose the function
- 15:47:31 [nvdbleek]
- signature they did for serialization
- 15:47:32 [nvdbleek]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0003.html
- 15:47:59 [nvdbleek]
- ebruchez: We covered this
- 15:48:08 [Steven]
- close action-1943
- 15:48:08 [trackbot]
- Closed ACTION-1943 Investigate why XPath 3 chose the function signature they did for serialization.
- 15:50:43 [Zakim]
- -ebruchez
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- -Steven
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- -[IPcaller]
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- -unl
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- -nvdbleek
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- IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
- 15:50:53 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Steven, [IPcaller], alain, ebruchez, nvdbleek, unl
- 15:50:54 [Steven]
- Oh, hi Uli!
- 15:51:07 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:51:07 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/29-forms-minutes.html Steven
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