15:01:15 RRSAgent has joined #html-media
15:01:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/28-html-media-irc
15:01:17 RRSAgent, make logs public
15:01:17 Zakim has joined #html-media
15:01:19 Zakim, this will be 63342
15:01:19 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:01:20 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:01:20 Date: 28 May 2013
15:01:22 pal has joined #html-media
15:01:47 Michael_Thornburgh has joined #html-media
15:01:54 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013May/0124.html
15:01:55 ddorwin has joined #html-media
15:02:13 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:13 HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, paulc
15:02:15 On IRC I see ddorwin, Michael_Thornburgh, pal, Zakim, RRSAgent, BobLund, davide, markw, paulc, trackbot, wseltzer
15:02:37 johnsim has joined #html-media
15:02:41 zakim, start meeting
15:02:41 I don't understand 'start meeting', paulc
15:03:06 zakim, what meeting is this?
15:03:06 I don't understand your question, paulc.
15:03:21 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:21 HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, paulc
15:03:22 On IRC I see johnsim, ddorwin, Michael_Thornburgh, pal, Zakim, RRSAgent, BobLund, davide, markw, paulc, trackbot, wseltzer
15:03:46 acolwell has joined #html-media
15:03:47 joesteele has joined #html-media
15:04:09 Zakim, who is here?
15:04:09 HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, joesteele
15:04:10 On IRC I see joesteele, acolwell, johnsim, ddorwin, Michael_Thornburgh, pal, Zakim, RRSAgent, BobLund, davide, markw, paulc, trackbot, wseltzer
15:04:19 zakim, this conference is HTML_WG
15:04:20 ok, paulc; that matches HTML_WG()11:00AM
15:04:27 +Aaron_Colwell
15:04:54 +davide
15:05:12 zakim, what conferences are active?
15:05:12 I see Team_Validat()11:00AM, WAI_WCAG()11:00AM, WAI_UAWG(CHAIRS)10:30AM, HTML_WG()11:00AM, Team_(systeam)14:01Z, WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM active
15:05:14 also scheduled at this time are VB_VBWG()10:00AM, SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, SW_RIF()11:00AM, RWC_WebEven()11:00AM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM,
15:05:14 ... RWC_PEWG()11:00AM
15:05:55 zakim, this will be HTML_WG()
15:05:55 ok, paulc, I see HTML_WG()11:00AM already started
15:06:03 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:03 On the phone I see [Microsoft], markw, Michael_Thornburgh, ddorwin, [Microsoft.a], pal, [Adobe], Aaron_Colwell, davide
15:06:16 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:06:16 +paulc; got it
15:06:31 zakim, I am Microsoft.a
15:06:31 ok, johnsim, I now associate you with [Microsoft.a]
15:06:55 Zakim, Adobe is me
15:06:55 +joesteele; got it
15:07:13 Scribe: joesteele
15:07:14 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013May/0124.html
15:07:24 rrsagent, generate minutes
15:07:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/28-html-media-minutes.html paulc
15:07:26 +[Microsoft.aa]
15:07:26 Chair: paulc
15:07:45 jdsmith has joined #html-media
15:07:50 Topic: Agenda
15:08:14 Topic: Role Call
15:08:17 paulc: done
15:08:23 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:23 On the phone I see [Microsoft], markw, Michael_Thornburgh, ddorwin, [Microsoft.a], pal, joesteele, Aaron_Colwell, davide, [Microsoft.aa]
15:08:25 Zakim, who is here?
15:08:26 [Microsoft] has paulc
15:08:26 On the phone I see [Microsoft], markw, Michael_Thornburgh, ddorwin, [Microsoft.a], pal, joesteele, Aaron_Colwell, davide, [Microsoft.aa]
15:08:26 [Microsoft] has paulc
15:08:26 On IRC I see jdsmith, joesteele, acolwell, johnsim, ddorwin, Michael_Thornburgh, pal, Zakim, RRSAgent, BobLund, davide, markw, paulc, trackbot, wseltzer
15:08:36 Topic: previous minutes
15:08:42 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013May/0124.html
15:08:43 paulc: from May 14th
15:09:02 Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2013/05/14-html-media-minutes.html
15:09:18 +BobLunbd
15:09:19 Topic: MSE status
15:09:34 Aaron, when agenda was done late last week editors draft was May 23rd
15:09:40 acolwell: no editing since then
15:09:47 May 23rd editors draft: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html
15:10:07 paulc: as of May 23rd -- 23 bugs
15:10:11 http://tinyurl.com/6pdnzej
15:10:19 ... flurry of activity before pre-last-call deadline
15:10:28 pal_ has joined #html-media
15:10:32 ... propose to step through the bugs
15:10:43 ... still 23 now so all qualify
15:11:05 acolwell: we can start at the top -- relatively minor bugs mostly
15:11:17 ... more involved bugs were filed by other standards body
15:11:31 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22137
15:11:42 acolwell: think this is one of them
15:11:52 ... finding others
15:12:06 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22135
15:12:33 ... these 2 I pasted are the most difficult to accommodate
15:12:46 ... but have been asked multiple times so we may have to address
15:12:57 ... may not be easy to deal with on mobile devices
15:13:10 ... might need to specify a minimum bar for UA to provide
15:13:20 Bin_Hu has joined #html-media
15:13:25 paulc: lets start at the top -- bug list in the agenda
15:13:32 ... try to go broad today
15:13:46 ... if we can find folks to take on this work we will do that today
15:13:59 ... reserve last 15 min or so to address last two if possible
15:14:08 bug:22148
15:14:22 paulc: request adding jitter to quality metrics
15:14:24 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22148
15:14:41 jerry: hoping to get some comments from KMakr in the call
15:14:50 s/KMarkr/Mark/
15:15:07 ... interested in their comments after thinking over the weekend
15:15:26 paulc: how should we process
15:15:49 markw: there can be a sig. amount of time before results manifest in the GOP frame
15:16:01 ... useful to detect problems earlier
15:16:07 ... if we can add this would be good
15:16:22 acolwell: we can add if folks find useful
15:16:41 ... enough detail to add this proposal, finding difference may be problematic
15:16:56 paulc: note that we will implement this one -- if someone objects, please reopen
15:17:11 bug: 22143
15:17:15 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22143
15:17:31 paulc: Media Playback quality should be limited to HTML Media Element
15:17:52 jerry: returns framerate and some elements might be audio, should be restricted to video
15:17:59 Aaron's response: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22143#c2
15:18:11 acolwell: my concerns are that if there are other quality metrics we should add later that apply to all
15:18:23 ... should be in a different element?
15:18:39 ... video tracks exist in media element, even though might be audio only
15:18:51 ... what is the harm? what is the tradeoff?
15:19:07 ... don't have a strong feeling
15:19:18 jerry: wasn't too likely to have quality metrics on audio
15:19:34 ... way that it is written, could request dropped frames for audio
15:19:46 acolwell: assumption is that for audio fields would be 0
15:20:11 ... if we move to media element, should attribute name be prefixed?
15:20:28 jerry: that makes sense to me
15:20:50 s/move to media element/move to video element/
15:21:04 bug:22139
15:21:13 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22139
15:21:14 paulc: MS and ISOBMFF interop
15:21:34 acolwell: action in the bug -- MSE not specifying a storage format
15:21:41 ... will add a note
15:21:59 ... 2nd paragraph of adrians comment
15:22:08 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22139#c5
15:22:20 paulc: will add a note for that one
15:22:33 bug: 22138
15:22:37 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22138
15:22:40 paulc: frame removal
15:22:52 acolwell: confused about what is being asked for -- feedback requested
15:23:00 ... coming from external
15:23:13 q+
15:23:18 ... don't think there is an issue, but need to have a dialog
15:23:22 ... until we understand
15:23:56 paulc: add a note that we need there feedback, especially from outside folks
15:24:05 s/there feedback/their feedback/
15:24:22 bug:22137
15:24:24 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22137
15:24:42 Going back to 22138:
15:24:47 jdsmith: on the queue for last question
15:24:55 ... agree with the questions on the bug in general
15:25:05 ... seems to propose shifting timeline when frames are removed
15:25:11 ... may be a substantial change
15:25:17 ... this could be of concern
15:25:34 acolwell: concerned about changing the code to shift stuff?
15:25:39 jdsmith: right
15:25:51 acolwell: don't want to do that -- they may be confused
15:26:09 paulc: jerry to response to 22138
15:26:17 ... back to 22137
15:26:31 s/jerry: /jdsmith: /
15:26:43 acolwell: we need to have a discussion about this one
15:26:50 ... may need to accomodate some aspects
15:27:01 See Aaron's questions: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22137#c2
15:27:02 ... but need to specify sme minimal behavior
15:27:10 ... could have significant impact on implementation
15:27:14 s/sme/some.
15:27:17 s/sme/some/
15:27:30 acolwell: could be explosion in complexity otherwise
15:27:45 paulc: have asked those questions of folks in general?
15:28:00 acolwell: yes -- after some thinking want to proposed something in general
15:28:11 s/proposed something/propose something/
15:28:28 bug:22136
15:28:30 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22136
15:28:43 acolwell: another external one related to ISOBMFF
15:28:57 ... based on comment #5 answering my questions
15:29:00 See comment 5: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22136#c5
15:29:15 ... not clear there is much to do as this is transparent to the MSE spec
15:29:25 ... may need a comment in the spec
15:29:38 paulc: are this questions about implementing the spec?
15:30:07 acolwell: yes -- looks like MSE would not have to do much if the decoder handles these inline elements
15:30:24 ... think this is just about getting more information, possibly a no-op
15:30:27 bug: 22135
15:30:33 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22135
15:30:44 ddorwin has joined #html-media
15:30:44 paulc: changing source buffers
15:30:54 acolwell: this one I am a little concerned about
15:31:02 ... about allowing codec changes
15:31:04 See Aaron's concerns: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22135#c2
15:31:15 ... current way is that they are in different source buffers
15:31:22 ... bug is about allowing in the same buffer
15:31:44 ... probably simplest solution is to allow codec changes, but may not work in mobile environment
15:31:57 ... might need to throw errors, show black frames, something
15:32:05 ... 2nd or 3rd time this has come up
15:32:14 paulc: 1st time filed as a bug?
15:32:34 acolwell: mixed into earlier external bugs, Adobe may have filed something along these lines as well
15:32:48 paulc: make sure this is tracked in the bug
15:33:19 johnsim: believe the why they are interested is because of insertion of advertising which has been encoded with a different audio codec
15:33:36 ... 30 sec ad which may use not Dolby but AAC -- that is the switching
15:34:00 acolwell: have concerns about being able to acquire new codec resources in the middle without causing an audible or visual disruption
15:34:05 ... may be tradeoffs here
15:34:17 ... could be non-trivial on mobile or embedded devices
15:34:46 markw has joined #html-media
15:35:04 acolwell: another possibility is to signal an error, but might not be seamless
15:35:20 johnsim: was buffer switching added for other reasons?
15:35:36 ... actual ask was to switch source buffer at a particular time
15:35:47 acolwell: concern is that the reason for asking is the codec change
15:36:00 ... most natural way is to do that within the source buffer
15:36:29 johnsim: believe that even when using the same audio codec, client side insertion best handled by client side insertion
15:36:33 q+
15:36:52 ack jd
15:36:58 ack bob
15:37:01 s/client side insertion best/ad insertion best/
15:37:22 boblund: good way to address previous bug about tracks entering and leaving the media resource
15:37:41 acolwell: allowing individual tracks is currently supported by adding a new source buffer
15:38:01 ... providing a way to switch source buffers at a particular time have to keep that in sync with all the other media
15:38:06 ... how do you manipulate?
15:38:10 q+
15:38:11 ... could get tricky
15:38:24 ack markw
15:38:25 q+
15:38:26 paulc: need more discussion
15:38:44 markw: having separate buffers is the way we have tracks come and go
15:39:04 ... need to thikn carefully about whether we want the additional complexity of a different approach
15:39:10 s/thikn/think/
15:39:14 ack pal
15:39:17 ... have to format the content carefully
15:39:33 pal: does it ever really define why there may be multiple source buffers?
15:39:49 acolwell: it does not explicitly say why you would use it
15:40:13 ... but if you have content from multiple sources in different formats, would use multiple source buffers
15:40:25 ... e.g. de-muxed content in MP4 files
15:40:34 So, we can deal very will with track adding/removal for the unmuxed case
15:40:44 ... adding and removing tracks from the presentation
15:41:02 The question is whether we want to provide this feature for the muxed case, or ask people to unmux their content
15:41:02 ... benefit is that there is an explicit negotiation for resouces needed for the new track
15:41:25 acolwell: no easy way for the UA to communicate that it cannot handle more tracks otherwise
15:41:38 ... the application needs this signaling
15:43:58 Pierre: Does the spec give enough guidance to an implementer about the # of source buffers that need to be supported
15:44:01 joesteele_ has joined #html-media
15:44:08 ok I am back
15:44:23 acolwell: codex changes are specifically disallowed
15:44:28 s/codex/codec/
15:44:45 ... when UA to does have the resources to create another source buffer
15:45:10 ... application will be able to detect based on the inability to create a new source buffer
15:45:38 johnsim: actual ask is that we provide a means to change buffer at a particular time
15:46:02 acolwell: I think more discussion needs to happen on this bug, I responded to a different question than he was asking
15:46:22 ... but if there are other reasons he is asking, we need to discuss how to accomodate that
15:46:29 johnsim: I believe that is the case
15:46:46 ... need to reach out to them about this bug to see if other reasons exist
15:46:58 acolwell: if other reasons - this is a signifcant ask
15:47:12 paulc: have touched on both of the items Aaron mentioned at the top of the call
15:47:17 ... ready to move on?
15:47:22 bug; 22134
15:47:32 s/bug;/bug:/
15:47:34 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22134
15:47:50 acolwell: someone like what Pierre was asking for
15:47:58 ... when is is appropriate to do these use cases
15:48:07 ... not clear that outlining should be in the spec
15:48:26 q+
15:48:32 paulc: on you to respond then, make clear what you believe should and should not be in the spec
15:48:40