15:51:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #audio
15:51:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-audio-irc
15:51:34 <chrislowis> Zakim, list
15:51:34 <Zakim> I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM, Team_(gldc)15:38Z, Team_(xsl)14:30Z, WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM active
15:51:36 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are Styl_XSL-FO-()11:00AM, XML_QueryWG(XSLT)11:00AM, SW_HCLS(TMO)11:00AM, Team_(privacy)16:00Z, SW_HCLS()11:00AM, RWC_Audio()12:00PM, I18N_MLW
15:51:36 <Zakim> ... WG(LT)10:00AM, SW_(PROV)11:00AM, WAI_WCAG_()2:00AM, HTML_WG()12:00PM, XML_XSLWG()12:00PM, VB_VBWG(CCXML)11:00AM
15:52:19 <chrislowis> Zakim, this is RWC_Audio
15:52:19 <Zakim> chrislowis, I see RWC_Audio()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be RWC_Audio".
15:52:27 <chrislowis> Zakim, this will be RWC_Audio
15:52:27 <Zakim> ok, chrislowis; I see RWC_Audio()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:52:41 <chrislowis> Zakim, what's the code?
15:52:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 28346 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chrislowis
15:54:01 <chrislowis> agenda+ offlineAudioContext
15:54:07 <chrislowis> Zakim, agenda
15:54:07 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agenda', chrislowis
15:54:13 <chrislowis> Zakim, what's the agenda
15:54:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'what's the agenda', chrislowis
15:54:31 <chrislowis> Zakim, agenda?
15:54:31 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:54:32 <Zakim> 1. OfflineAudioContext [from olivier]
15:54:32 <Zakim> 2. Implementations [from shepazu]
15:54:32 <Zakim> 3. Testing [from chrislowis]
15:54:32 <Zakim> 4. offlineAudioContext [from chrislowis]
15:54:48 <ehsan> ehsan has joined #audio
15:54:48 <chrislowis> agenda- 1
15:54:54 <chrislowis> agenda?
15:55:03 <chrislowis> agenda- 2
15:55:07 <chrislowis> agenda- 3
15:55:38 <ehsan> chrislowis: why did you drop Testing?
15:55:51 <chrislowis> agenda+ Testing
15:55:58 <chrislowis> ehsan: sorry, got it all in the wrong order :)
15:56:00 <chrislowis> agenda?
15:56:43 <ehsan> cool!
15:57:16 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has now started
15:57:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:57:30 <crogers> crogers has joined #audio
15:57:30 <chrislowis> Zakim, IPcaller is me
15:57:30 <Zakim> +chrislowis; got it
15:58:16 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
15:58:22 <chrislowis> Meeting: W3C Audio Working Group Teleconference (23/05/13)
15:58:30 <chrislowis> Zakim, Mozilla is ehsan
15:58:30 <Zakim> +ehsan; got it
15:59:01 <chrislowis> Chair: chrislowis
15:59:42 <gmandyam> gmandyam has joined #audio
15:59:49 <chrislowis> gmandyam: Hello!
15:59:55 <chrislowis> ScribeNick: gmandyam
16:00:22 <Zakim> + +1.604.628.aaaa
16:00:31 <Zakim> +gmandyam
16:00:42 <gmandyam> Zakim, aaaa is gmandyam\
16:00:43 <Zakim> +gmandyam\; got it
16:00:48 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
16:00:57 <Zakim> +crogers
16:01:19 <gmandyam> Zakim, aaaa is not gmandyam\
16:01:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaaa is not gmandyam\', gmandyam
16:02:12 <gmandyam> Zakim, who is here
16:02:12 <Zakim> gmandyam, you need to end that query with '?'
16:02:16 <gmandyam> Zakim, who is here?
16:02:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see chrislowis, ehsan, gmandyam, gmandyam, Doug_Schepers, crogers
16:02:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see gmandyam, crogers, ehsan, RRSAgent, tobie, shepazu, marcosc, toyoshiAw, paul___irish, Zakim, mdjp, cwilso_, trackbot, heath, padenot, rtoyg_, chrislowis, olivier
16:03:23 <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
16:03:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:03:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 28346
16:03:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Audio Working Group Teleconference
16:03:29 <trackbot> Date: 23 May 2013
16:03:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see RWC_Audio()12:00PM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
16:03:31 <marc> marc has joined #audio
16:03:38 <chrislowis> Zakim, take up first agendum
16:03:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first agendum', chrislowis
16:03:43 <gmandyam> chrislowis: We'll start with Offline Audio Context
16:03:43 <chrislowis> Zakim, take up agendum
16:03:44 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up agendum', chrislowis
16:03:58 <chrislowis> Zakim, next agendum
16:03:58 <Zakim> agendum 4. "offlineAudioContext" taken up [from chrislowis]
16:04:42 <gmandyam> ehasan: Last time I think we discussed most of the big issues.  There was 1 big issue remaining: whether we should be able to change the I/F to allow startRendering to be called multiple times.
16:04:55 <gmandyam> ehsan: crogers felt that such a change would break existing web content.
16:05:32 <gmandyam> crogers: There are people who are using this feature, but I have found a solution that would allow calling of startRendering multiple times.
16:06:06 <gmandyam> crogers: My proposal is that startRendering can be invoked multiple times, but the dev. has to wait for the oncomplete event handler to be invoked before calling again.
16:06:31 <gmandyam> ehsan: But you would still have to pass the entire processing length to the constructor?
16:07:13 <gmandyam> corgers: No. The length would refer to the length of processing time for each incremental processing chunk.
16:07:44 <gmandyam> Previous note correction: 'corgers' is 'crogers'
16:08:28 <gmandyam> ehsan: That is mostly fine.  There is one remaining problem: some people could want to pass in different lengths depending on different circumstances.
16:09:40 <gmandyam> crogers: startRendering could take in a length argument that overrides the constructor argument in that case.
16:09:52 <gmandyam> crogers: I don't think this is going to be a big issue in practice.
16:10:25 <gmandyam> ehsan: I feel this API is still constructed weirdly.  Length should not be in the constructor.
16:10:55 <gmandyam> crogers: I have seen bugs filed to Chrome on OfflineAudioContext.  People are using it.
16:11:30 <gmandyam> crogers: It has been in Chrome since last November/early December.  I am hesitant to significantly modify the API at this point.
16:11:57 <gmandyam> ehsan: (To crogers) Please propose this idea to the list.  I am fine with this proposal.
16:12:15 <chrislowis> ACTION: crogers to propose idea for OfflineAudioContext to list
16:12:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Propose idea for OfflineAudioContext to list [on Chris Rogers - due 2013-05-30].
16:14:36 <gmandyam> ehsan:  The other remaining issue:  using OfflineAudioContext to deal with real-time nodes outside of the audio graph (e.g. MediaElement as source - how do we deal with this?
16:15:31 <gmandyam> ehsan: crogers suggested during the last call that such nodes be prohibited from OfflineAudioContext.
16:15:51 <gmandyam> crogers: I don't see any use for such a feature either.  It is overly complex to spec out such a requirement.
16:16:03 <gmandyam> ehsan:  No backwards-compatibility requirement?
16:16:36 <gmandyam> crogers: Current Chrome/Safari implementations will not work with such nodes, so there is no backwards-compatibility issues with posing this requirement.
16:17:46 <gmandyam> chrislowis: How do we show this restriction in the spec?
16:18:09 <gmandyam> crogers: Don't know how to address this in the IDL.  Maybe a comment on when an exception is thrown.
16:19:00 <gmandyam> ehsan: Maybe allow for a return type to be null with UA requirements upon encountering real-time nodes for OfflineAudioContext.  No exception is required.
16:19:12 <gmandyam> chrislowis: Please propose this as well to the list.
16:19:39 <gmandyam> ehsan: I'd prefer this be part of crogers' action item so that all the OfflineAudioContext changes can be viewed together.
16:19:58 <gmandyam> ehsan: I think these two changes should address all of Mozilla's concerns
16:20:01 <chrislowis> ACTION: ehsan will reply to Chris's proposed changes to OfflineAudioContext with updated WebIDL.
16:20:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Will reply to Chris's proposed changes to OfflineAudioContext with updated WebIDL. [on Ehsan Akhgari - due 2013-05-30].
16:20:09 <marc> shepazu: thanks
16:20:54 <gmandyam> Zakim, who is here?
16:20:54 <Zakim> I notice RWC_Audio()12:00PM has restarted
16:20:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see chrislowis, ehsan, gmandyam, gmandyam, Doug_Schepers, crogers
16:20:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see marc, gmandyam, crogers, ehsan, RRSAgent, tobie, shepazu, marcosc, toyoshiAw, paul___irish, Zakim, mdjp, cwilso_, trackbot, heath, padenot, rtoyg_, chrislowis, olivier
16:21:20 <chrislowis> Zakim, next agendum
16:21:21 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Testing" taken up [from chrislowis]
16:21:22 <gmandyam> chrislowis: Let us continue on the agenda with the testing topic.
16:21:41 <gmandyam> ehsan: I meant to pose something on the mailing list re: testing.
16:22:24 <gmandyam> ehsan: I'd like to share our experiences we have gained using OfflineAudioContext and ScriptProcessorNode for testing.
16:23:07 <gmandyam> We use this methodology to compare observed results with expected results.
16:26:24 <gmandyam> crogers: Not all the tests we use test only a specific node.
16:27:06 <gmandyam> ehsan: Each test have two functions:  createGraph and createExpectedBuffers.  So we can test entire graphs.
16:28:06 <gmandyam> ehsan: Our tests can return multiple nodes if necessary, but we haven't found a reason to inspect multiple nodes yet.
16:28:20 <gmandyam> ehsan: This is to keep the tests simple.
16:28:25 <marc> shepazu: thanks, and in case anyone else is curious, I'm Marc Novakowski from Pandora
16:29:18 <gmandyam> crogers: In most of our tests, we don't examine the nodes.  We compare against theoretical values or expected buffer values.
16:29:46 <gmandyam> crogers: It would be helpful if we did a comparison between the Webkit/Blink and Mozilla tests.
16:30:15 <gmandyam> ehsan: I have been examining some tests in the Webkit tree, but this is an ongoing exercise.  I don't expect any fundamental incompatibilities.
16:30:30 <Zakim> + +1.954.336.aabb
16:31:19 <gmandyam> ehsan: The createExpectedBuffer function can be used to generate a buffer independent of the input graph.
16:32:22 <gmandyam> crogers: We examine a subset of the samples to determine correctness.  Our convolution test is relatively complex.  Our square,square convolution test for instance doesn't yield a perfect triangle.
16:32:35 <gmandyam> crogers: But we allow passing of the test based on an error tolerance.
16:33:02 <gmandyam> chrislowis: How much of the complexity should we capture in the testing framework that accompanies the spec? - to crogers
16:33:55 <sethl> sethl has joined #audio
16:34:05 <gmandyam> crogers: I think tests like the convolution test have allowed us to verify different FFT back-ends.  The observed SNR is very high (on the order of 100 dB or more).
16:35:31 <gmandyam> ehsan: I think both types of tests should be allowed: buffer comparison where a boolean is returned, and SNR tests.
16:35:53 <gmandyam> chrislowis: These approaches to testing methodology should be circulated to the mailing list.
16:38:49 <gmandyam> crogers: We should create a general sharable test framework.  We've written around 80 tests in Webkit, and I think the form of the tests are already in a near-neutral format.
16:39:08 <gmandyam> crogers: We have some dependencies on the Webkit test harness, but not many.
16:39:23 <gmandyam> chrislowis: I didn't have to make to many changes when I ported the Webkit tests.
16:41:24 <gmandyam> ehsan: Mozilla intends to use the Webkit tests as soon as possible.
16:42:48 <chrislowis> Example ported test from WebKit: https://github.com/WebAudio/web-platform-tests/blob/master/webaudio/the-audio-api/the-gainnode-interface/gain-node-webkit.html
16:43:17 <chrislowis> Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2013May/0003.html
16:45:06 <gmandyam> ehsan: One more item to raise on testing: how much of the spec will we actually test?
16:45:47 <gmandyam> chrislowis: We don't close a bugzilla bug on a spec feature until we update the test.
16:51:58 <gmandyam> gmandyam: We are currently leveraging the Webkit test harness for internal testing. I don't believe the W3C test suite needs to be as extensive.  It can serve as a guideline for 3rd parties who want to develop their own tests.
16:52:37 <gmandyam> shepazu: I don't think anyone is saying that we just rubber stamp Webkit tests as the W3C official test methodology.
16:53:10 <gmandyam> ehsan: There are issues with leveraging the Webkit tests as it to form the basis for the W3C test suite.  For one, the Webkit implementation is not currently spec compliant.
16:54:00 <gmandyam> crogers: We could use the Webkit tests as a starting point, but I know there are Webkit-based browser vendors who would like to transition to W3C-sanctioned tests.
16:54:36 <gmandyam> ehsan: I think there is value to coming up with the detailed feature test as the official W3C test suite.
16:55:18 <gmandyam> shepazu: Traditionally W3C test suites have not been used for conformance or interop.  It is testing the implementability of a specification.  We are shifting to more aspirational testing, particularly for interop.
16:56:03 <gmandyam> shepazu: W3C will never provide a 'complete' test suite, so implementers will still be responsible for developing some tests on their own.  In order to move the spec forward, we should have a good representative set of tests.
16:57:11 <gmandyam> chrislowis: I agree.  We need to find a sweet-spot to where the tests are useful, but are not so comprehensive that it holds up the spec work.
16:57:30 <gmandyam> ehsan: I agree.
16:58:20 <gmandyam> marc (from Pandora): The items being dealt in this group are lower-level than we are used to, so we don't have any contributions at this point.
16:58:39 <gmandyam> chrislowis: We also have a developers mailing list.
16:59:07 <gmandyam> marc: We are looking into details of the API so that we could become users of the API.
16:59:28 <gmandyam> zakim, who is here?
16:59:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see chrislowis, ehsan, gmandyam, gmandyam, Doug_Schepers, crogers, +1.954.336.aabb
16:59:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see sethl, marc, gmandyam, crogers, ehsan, RRSAgent, tobie, shepazu, marcosc, toyoshiAw, paul___irish, Zakim, mdjp, cwilso_, trackbot, heath, padenot, rtoyg_, chrislowis,
16:59:31 <Zakim> ... olivier
17:00:05 <marc> Seth Levy from Pandora
17:00:22 <gmandyam> Seth (from Pandora):  We are interested in the API as developers, not browser vendors.
17:00:31 <Zakim> - +1.954.336.aabb
17:00:34 <Zakim> -crogers
17:00:36 <Zakim> -gmandyam
17:00:37 <chrislowis> Developers list: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio-dev/
17:00:38 <Zakim> -gmandyam
17:04:14 <Zakim> -ehsan
17:04:21 <chrislowis> shepazu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_synthesis
17:04:32 <chrislowis> shepazu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtractive_synthesis
17:07:52 <chrislowis> RRSAgent, please create the minutes
17:07:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-audio-minutes.html chrislowis
17:07:58 <marc> marc has left #audio
17:10:23 <chrislowis> shepazu: http://webaudio.prototyping.bbc.co.uk/
17:11:22 <chrislowis> Zakim, who is on the call?
17:11:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see chrislowis, Doug_Schepers
17:19:20 <Zakim> -chrislowis
17:19:22 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
17:19:22 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has ended
17:19:22 <Zakim> Attendees were chrislowis, ehsan, +1.604.628.aaaa, gmandyam, gmandyam\, Doug_Schepers, crogers, +1.954.336.aabb
17:51:02 <ehsan> ehsan has joined #audio
18:36:51 <tobie> tobie has joined #audio
19:54:53 <mdjp> marcosc - as chrislowis has pointed out there is a very simple solution to the problem, please see new mail.
19:55:04 <mdjp> and thanks chrislowis!
20:10:04 <colinbdclark> colinbdclark has joined #audio
21:10:46 <automata> automata has joined #audio
21:29:42 <tobie> tobie has joined #audio
22:57:16 <ehsan> ehsan has joined #audio
23:26:13 <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
23:26:13 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
23:26:13 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
23:26:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
23:26:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-audio-minutes.html trackbot
23:26:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
23:26:22 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-audio-actions.rdf :
23:26:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: crogers to propose idea for OfflineAudioContext to list [1]
23:26:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-audio-irc#T16-12-15
23:26:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ehsan will reply to Chris's proposed changes to OfflineAudioContext with updated WebIDL. [2]
23:26:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-audio-irc#T16-20-01