IRC log of wai-wcag on 2013-05-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:17 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:44:17 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/21-wai-wcag-irc
14:44:24 [Joshue108]: zakim, this will be 9224
14:44:24 [Zakim]: ok, Joshue108; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
14:44:33 [Joshue108]: rrsagent, make log world
14:44:45 [Joshue108]: Meeting: WCAG Working Group Meeting
14:44:51 [Joshue108]: chair: Joshue
14:45:28 [Joshue108]: agenda + WCAG Charter Refresh:
14:45:28 [Joshue108]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/CharterRefreshMay2013/
14:45:40 [Joshue108]: agenda + WCAG2ICT Items: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/GenWCAG2ICT21st5th2013/
14:57:52 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:59 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:58:07 [Joshue108]: zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
14:58:07 [Zakim]: +Joshue; got it
14:58:25 [korn]: korn has joined #wai-wcag
14:58:37 [Loretta]: Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
14:58:50 [Joshue108]: zakim, mute me
14:58:50 [Zakim]: sorry, Joshue108, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
14:59:01 [Zakim]: +Kathy
14:59:16 [robin]: robin has joined #wai-wcag
14:59:48 [Zakim]: +Peter_Korn
15:00:31 [Zakim]: + +1.253.381.aaaa
15:00:46 [Joshue108]: zakim, aaaa is Robin
15:00:46 [Zakim]: +Robin; got it
15:01:16 [marcjohlic]: marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:40 [Zakim]: +Marc_Johlic
15:02:24 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:02:56 [Loretta]: zakim, IPcaller is Loretta
15:02:56 [Zakim]: +Loretta; got it
15:03:08 [Zakim]: +Katie_HaritosShea
15:03:08 [Joshue108]: scribe: Peter Korn
15:03:13 [Zakim]: +??P21
15:03:19 [AWK]: AWK has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:45 [Joshue108]: zakim, P21 is Leonie
15:03:45 [Zakim]: sorry, Joshue108, I do not recognize a party named 'P21'
15:03:49 [Joshue108]: zakim, ??P21 is Leonie
15:03:49 [Zakim]: +Leonie; got it
15:04:12 [Zakim]: +Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:04:23 [greggvanderheiden]: greggvanderheiden has joined #wai-wcag
15:05:04 [tink]: tink has joined #wai-wcag
15:06:11 [Ryladog]: Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
15:08:31 [korn]: LW would like to see reference to older persons, in addition to persons with disabilities
15:09:42 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:10:09 [kerstin_probiesch]: kerstin_probiesch has joined #wai-wcag
15:10:16 [korn]: KW - are we calling out specific disabilities because we explicitly plan to work on them? ("cognitive, mobile, etc.")
15:10:36 [kerstin_probiesch]: zakim, mute me
15:10:36 [Zakim]: sorry, kerstin_probiesch, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:10:40 [korn]: JC - yes, these enumerated items ARE things we definitely want to focus on
15:10:52 [kerstin_probiesch]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:52 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Joshue, Kathy, Peter_Korn, Robin, Marc_Johlic, Loretta, Katie_HaritosShea, Leonie, Gregg_Vanderheiden, [IPcaller]
15:10:53 [korn]: JC - list isn't exhaustive
15:11:02 [korn]: KW - should we put HTML5, ARIA on this list as well?
15:11:02 [kerstin_probiesch]: zakim, ipcaller is me
15:11:02 [Zakim]: +kerstin_probiesch; got it
15:11:07 [kerstin_probiesch]: zakim, mute me
15:11:07 [Zakim]: kerstin_probiesch should now be muted
15:11:25 [Zakim]: +Bruce_Bailey
15:11:36 [korn]: JC - we are definitely doing work there, in a TF. Don't know we need to enumerate every domain in the charter.
15:12:09 [korn]: JC - definitely consider adding HTML5, ARIA to the enumerated list
15:12:14 [Zakim]: -Bruce_Bailey
15:12:21 [Zakim]: +James_Nurthen
15:12:36 [BBailey]: BBailey has joined #wai-wcag
15:12:53 [jamesn]: jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
15:14:13 [korn]: JC - now looking at "Explore needs for potential minor..." part of charter
15:14:59 [korn]: JC - very much trying to ensure scope of charter is broad enough to cover new types of technologies
15:15:30 [jamesn]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:15:30 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Joshue, Kathy, Peter_Korn, Robin, Marc_Johlic, Loretta, Katie_HaritosShea, Leonie, Gregg_Vanderheiden, kerstin_probiesch (muted), James_Nurthen
15:15:36 [kerstin_probiesch]: I'm here, but I don't have comments. I'm ok with the written points
15:16:42 [korn]: GV - are we going to limit ourselves to "WCAG plus"? If we are looking at removing anything, we open ourselves to a huge process, with regulatory implications.
15:16:46 [Joshue108]: thanks kerstin
15:17:35 [korn]: GV - previous text noted that our work would be "backward compatible". We could put regulatory adoption on hold if we signal that WCAG 2.0 could be changed (e.g. WCAG 2.1)
15:18:05 [korn]: JC - we need to have sufficient scope that (1) doesn't break anything that is stable, and (2) allows us to move in an iterative way.
15:18:35 [korn]: GV - Maybe the topc should be "explore major/minor additions to WCAG" - looking at anything we missed, but won't go back and undo anything
15:19:10 [korn]: JC - now looking at "Coordinate with other groups..." portion
15:19:33 [kerstin_probiesch]: zakim, unmute me
15:19:33 [Zakim]: kerstin_probiesch should no longer be muted
15:19:38 [korn]: JC - now looking at "General Comments on other aspects of the charter" section
15:21:29 [korn]: JC - the charter doesn't lock us in religiously. We can re-charter if we need to.
15:21:48 [korn]: JN - points out that re-chartering is a real pain; it shouldn't be something we think we want to do
15:22:17 [Zakim]: +Bruce_Bailey
15:22:22 [korn]: JN - the aim is a charter to take us through 3 years; we would re-charter only if we felt we really needed to
15:23:17 [BBailey]: zakim, i am bruce
15:23:17 [Zakim]: ok, BBailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey
15:23:24 [korn]: zakim, take up item 2
15:23:24 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "WCAG2ICT Items: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/GenWCAG2ICT21st5th2013/" taken up [from Joshue108]
15:23:26 [BBailey]: zakim, mute me
15:23:26 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should now be muted
15:25:33 [korn]: RESOLUTION: accept charter with amendment to "Explore" section title, which replaced the word "updates" with "additions", so it becomes: "Explore needs for potential minor and / or major ADDITIONS to Web Content Accessibility Guidelines"
15:25:35 [Zakim]: +Andrew_Kirkpatrick
15:25:56 [BBailey]: zakim, unmute me
15:25:56 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should no longer be muted
15:26:12 [BBailey]: zakim, mute me
15:26:12 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should now be muted
15:27:34 [korn]: AWK - (still on previous agenda item) so we cannot remove/replace anything with this charter?
15:29:15 [korn]: GV - Yes; we don't want to be able to change things in a way that is incompatible with WCAG 2.0. That could break test tools, regulations that have adopted WCAG 2.0, etc.
15:29:39 [korn]: Zakim, who is talking?
15:29:50 [Zakim]: korn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Joshue (63%), Gregg_Vanderheiden (50%), James_Nurthen (4%)
15:30:12 [AWK]: q+
15:30:24 [Joshue108]: +q
15:30:40 [Joshue108]: zakim, mute me
15:30:40 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
15:31:09 [korn]: GV - Likewise we don't want to do anything that might be seen as a reason to "wait for WCAG 2.1" vs. adopting 2.0.
15:31:11 [Joshue108]: zakim, unmute me
15:31:11 [Zakim]: Joshue should no longer be muted
15:31:14 [Joshue108]: ack awk
15:31:23 [Joshue108]: zakim, mute me
15:31:23 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
15:32:01 [korn]: AWK - What would be bad is making a decision to add/remove without having all the information. So that is why we had the language "collect requirements".
15:32:35 [korn]: AWK - therefore it is part of our job to consider backward compatibility. So to only explore additions seems unnecessarily constraining.
15:33:08 [korn]: q+
15:33:37 [Joshue108]: zakim, unmute me
15:33:37 [Zakim]: Joshue should no longer be muted
15:33:41 [Joshue108]: ack me
15:33:43 [korn]: AWK - reluctant to say we can only add, because we haven't evaluated yet
15:33:58 [BBailey]: q+ to say it would be better to be constrained to not introducing compatibilities rather than “additions” only versus “updates”.
15:34:01 [Zakim]: +David_MacDonald
15:34:08 [korn]: JC - whether it says explore... additions vs. updates, amounts to the same thing. We are exploring.
15:34:52 [Joshue108]: ack korn
15:35:31 [Joshue108]: PK: I agree. It amounts to the same thing.
15:35:36 [David]: David has joined #wai-wcag
15:36:01 [Joshue108]: PK: We can re-charter if we find new things in the next three years, the exploration isn't constrained.
15:36:06 [Joshue108]: zakim, mute me
15:36:06 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
15:36:35 [Joshue108]: PK: It may signal that we might do more, I am in favour of Greggs change without any change in the bullets.
15:36:38 [Joshue108]: zakim, unmute me
15:36:38 [Zakim]: Joshue should no longer be muted
15:36:39 [AWK]: q+
15:36:43 [Joshue108]: ack gregg
15:37:05 [Joshue108]: zakim, mute me
15:37:05 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
15:37:50 [korn]: GV: Wording of WCAG from the start encompasses the idea that AT may advance; so if relying on AT & it can now do something it couldn't do before, we don't need to change the SC to cover it (e.g. zoom, which is now in browsers so the content doesn't have to self-zoom since essentially all browsers now do it)
15:39:03 [AWK]: q+ to ask Gregg if he views this change in wording as serving to state that we are not chartered to investigate the removal of any items in WCAG
15:40:56 [korn]: GV - The key question we have is whether we are contemplating a non-backward-compatible WCAG update.
15:41:38 [Joshue108]: zakim, unmute me
15:41:38 [Zakim]: Joshue should no longer be muted
15:42:14 [korn]: GV - If we think there is something seriously broken, we should work on that. If not, then not. And if we discover a serious breakage within next 3 years, we can re-charter.
15:43:04 [korn]: JC - feels we are getting a little derailed. We have discussed this a lot in last several weeks. We need to finalize the charter.
15:44:44 [David]: q+
15:46:31 [korn]: GV - charter is an extrodinarily meaningful document. Orignally talked about 2 parts: (1) additions to a 2.1, and (2) longer term look at where technology is going and whether we need to look at guidelines in an entirely new way [as a very long term thing]. Now these two things seem to have been mushed together, and very worried about uncertainty in short term.
15:47:20 [BBailey]: ack bruce
15:47:21 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to say it would be better to be constrained to not introducing compatibilities rather than “additions” only versus “updates”.
15:48:40 [Joshue108]: ack awk
15:48:40 [Zakim]: AWK, you wanted to ask Gregg if he views this change in wording as serving to state that we are not chartered to investigate the removal of any items in WCAG
15:48:43 [BBailey]: zakim, mute me
15:48:44 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should now be muted
15:48:52 [korn]: BB - would like to clearly state intention to not break backward compatibility, but prefers the word "update"
15:49:02 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
15:49:37 [Joshue108]: ack david
15:49:38 [korn]: AWK - don't want to hear "we can't even talk about x" if we have the word "addition" instead of "update".
15:50:49 [Joshue108]: ack greg
15:51:39 [Ryladog]: Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
15:51:41 [greggvanderheiden]: the intent is to maintain backward compatibility for any wcag 2.0 series guidelines while
15:51:56 [Ryladog]: +1 with Gregg and Andrew
15:52:05 [jamesn]: q+
15:52:25 [greggvanderheiden]: carrying out more open discussions about how to craft future guidelines to address emerging technical environment
15:52:43 [greggvanderheiden]: the intent is to maintain backward compatibility for any wcag 2.0 series guidelines while carrying out more open discussions about how to craft future guidelines to address emerging technical environment
15:53:28 [BBailey]: q+ to ask for a stronger word than “intent”
15:55:09 [Joshue108]: ack james
15:56:25 [korn]: JN - The charter as written doesn't seem to allow us to publish a new edition of WCAG. Is that something to state explicitly?
15:56:32 [AWK]: The "Out of Scoe" section clarifies Jame's concern
15:56:51 [AWK]: s/Jame's/James's
15:57:16 [AWK]: s/Out of Scoe/Out of Scope
15:57:30 [tink]: q+
15:58:23 [Zakim]: -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:58:43 [Joshue108]: ack bruce
15:58:43 [BBailey]: ack bruce
15:58:44 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to ask for a stronger word than “intent”
15:59:16 [greggvanderheiden]: why is the meeting restricted?
15:59:25 [greggvanderheiden]: I fell out and am not allowed to reenter
15:59:46 [BBailey]: zakim, mute me
15:59:46 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should now be muted
15:59:56 [greggvanderheiden]: and the meeting is still in progress?
16:00:15 [AWK]: trying to figure it out gregg
16:00:20 [greggvanderheiden]: ah I have it
16:00:21 [greggvanderheiden]: hold on
16:00:25 [BBailey]: zakim, unmute
16:00:25 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'unmute', BBailey
16:00:31 [Joshue108]: zakim, queue?
16:00:31 [Zakim]: I see tink on the speaker queue
16:00:37 [BBailey]: zakim, unmute me
16:00:37 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should no longer be muted
16:00:38 [Joshue108]: ack tink
16:00:47 [Zakim]: +Gregg_Vanderheiden
16:00:55 [BBailey]: zakim, mute me
16:00:55 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should now be muted
16:01:24 [korn]: LJW - is there a tangible deliverable out of requirements gathering?
16:01:58 [Joshue108]: zakim, mute me
16:01:58 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
16:02:26 [LJWatson]: ack me
16:02:41 [Joshue108]: zakim, unmute me
16:02:41 [Zakim]: Joshue should no longer be muted
16:03:01 [korn]: AWK - in the deliverables section, we do say we will develop requirements
16:03:25 [Zakim]: -Leonie
16:03:37 [Joshue108]: zakim, queue?
16:03:37 [Zakim]: I see no one on the speaker queue
16:03:45 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
16:03:53 [greggvanderheiden]: q-
16:04:05 [korn]: JC - seems we aren't quite as close to finalizing charter as thought
16:04:42 [korn]: q+
16:05:29 [Joshue108]: ack korn
16:06:07 [BBailey]: zakim, unmute me
16:06:07 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should no longer be muted
16:09:35 [BBailey]: zakim, mute me
16:09:35 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should now be muted
16:09:43 [korn]: RESOLUTION: re-open the charter discussion
16:10:40 [BBailey]: zakim, unmute me
16:10:40 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should no longer be muted
16:10:50 [Joshue108]: zakim, queue?
16:10:50 [Zakim]: I see no one on the speaker queue
16:12:21 [Joshue108]: zakim, take up item 2
16:12:21 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "WCAG2ICT Items: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/GenWCAG2ICT21st5th2013/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:12:34 [BBailey]: zakim, mute me
16:12:34 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey should now be muted
16:13:26 [korn]: RESOLUTION: first 7 (of 8) survey items accepted
16:13:27 [korn]: q+
16:13:42 [Joshue108]: What are the common causes of confusion, and what can be done to fix them?'.
16:13:46 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
16:13:51 [Joshue108]: https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/temp/document-organization-trial
16:14:01 [Joshue108]: ack, korn
16:14:05 [AWK]: First 7 items accepted are: General WCAG2ICT guidance for Principles and Guidelines, Definition for: changes of context, Definition for: structure, New text on Conformance notes, Satisfies a success criterion, Conformance, Accessibility Supported
16:14:06 [Joshue108]: ack korn
16:14:13 [Joshue108]: zakim, mute me
16:14:13 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
16:14:31 [Joshue108]: PK: This text displays a re-ordering of the blocks we put together.
16:14:44 [Joshue108]: PK: We quoted the WCAG SC and intent and then placed out changes into the doc.
16:15:02 [Joshue108]: PK: In this re-odering we quote the WCAG SC then put in our guidance and quote WCAG understanding.
16:15:18 [Joshue108]: :-)
16:15:21 [Loretta]: q+ is this just for 1.1.1, or for al the SC?
16:16:14 [Loretta]: q+
16:16:31 [Joshue108]: zakim, unmute me
16:16:31 [Zakim]: Joshue should no longer be muted
16:17:03 [Joshue108]: ack gregg
16:18:14 [BBailey]: q+ To clarify that this is for all SC.
16:19:09 [Joshue108]: ack loretta
16:19:43 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
16:20:04 [korn]: LGR - no objection in principal. Relies on TF to ensure there aren't changes to "understanding" text. Also would like to authorize TF to make editorial changes w/out needing to come back to WCAG WG each time.
16:20:21 [Joshue108]: +1
16:20:36 [BBailey]: ack bruce
16:20:37 [Zakim]: Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to clarify that this is for all SC.
16:20:39 [Joshue108]: ack Bruce
16:20:44 [greggvanderheiden]: ack g
16:21:06 [korn]: BB - would like to do both things: OK this change, and empower TF to make formatting/editorial changes.
16:22:15 [korn]: RESOLUTION: accept survey item 8 - proposed re-org of WCAG2ICT presentation
16:23:05 [Joshue108]: RESOLUTION: I propose the WCAG WG delegates decisions on the WCAG2ICT doc to the WCAG2ICT editors, chairs.
16:23:50 [Zakim]: -Katie_HaritosShea
16:24:18 [korn]: s/I propose the/
16:24:47 [Joshue108]: s/RESOLUTION: I propose the WCAG WG delegates decisions on the WCAG2ICT doc to the WCAG2ICT editors, chairs./
16:25:50 [korn]: RESOLUTION: WCAG WG delegates editorial decitions on WCAG2ICT document to the WCAG2ICT editors
16:26:03 [korn]: s/decitions/decisions
16:26:42 [Zakim]: -Joshue
16:26:59 [Zakim]: -James_Nurthen
16:27:01 [kerstin_probiesch]: bye
16:27:01 [Zakim]: -Gregg_Vanderheiden
16:27:02 [Zakim]: -Loretta
16:27:06 [Zakim]: -Robin
16:27:08 [Zakim]: -Kathy
16:27:16 [Zakim]: -kerstin_probiesch
16:27:55 [David]: Wrapping up minutes:
16:27:57 [David]: zakim, bye
16:27:57 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Joshue, Kathy, Peter_Korn, +1.253.381.aaaa, Robin, Marc_Johlic, Loretta, Katie_HaritosShea, Leonie, Gregg_Vanderheiden,
16:27:57 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wai-wcag
16:27:58 [David]: rrsagent, make log public
16:28:00 [Zakim]: ... kerstin_probiesch, Bruce_Bailey, James_Nurthen, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, David_MacDonald
16:28:00 [David]: RRSAgentI have made the request,
16:28:01 [David]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:01 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/21-wai-wcag-minutes.html David
16:28:03 [David]: RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/24-text-minutes.html David
16:28:04 [David]: (then check URI and copy uri into an email, and copy text into the body of the email.
19:05:03 [korn]: korn has left #wai-wcag