20:53:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
20:53:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/15-indie-ui-irc
20:53:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:53:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #indie-ui
20:53:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be INDIE
20:53:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
20:53:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
20:53:59 <trackbot> Date: 15 May 2013
20:54:03 <janina> Meeting: IndieUI Task Force Teleconference
20:54:03 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
20:54:03 <janina> agenda+ TPAC2013 https://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/
20:54:03 <janina> agenda+ Editor's Update
20:54:03 <janina> agenda+ Default Activation Event [See Below]
20:54:06 <janina> agenda+ user context properties [See Below]
20:54:08 <janina> agenda+ User Context Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/3
20:54:11 <janina> agenda+ Events Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/2
20:54:14 <janina> agenda+ Privacy and Security: The cases for exposing AT
20:54:17 <janina> agenda+ Renaming POR: Open Discussion
20:54:19 <janina> agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 30 May at 21:00Z)
20:54:22 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
20:57:11 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()5:00PM has now started
20:57:18 <Zakim> +??P0
20:57:58 <andy> andy has joined #indie-ui
20:58:33 <Zakim> +??P1
20:58:38 <janina>  zakim, ??P1 is me
20:58:38 <Zakim> +janina; got it
20:59:24 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:59:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, janina
20:59:27 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #indie-ui
21:00:03 <janina> zakim, ??P0 is Andy_Heath
21:00:03 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
21:00:18 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #indie-ui
21:00:37 <Zakim> +??P2
21:00:53 <Zakim> +[Apple]
21:01:01 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraigh
21:01:01 <Zakim> +jcraigh; got it
21:01:02 <rich_> rich_ has joined #indie-ui
21:01:13 <jcraig> Zakim, jcraigh is jcraig
21:01:13 <Zakim> sorry, jcraig, I do not recognize a party named 'jcraigh'
21:01:38 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraig
21:01:38 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
21:01:46 <MichaelC> zakim, call cooper-mobile
21:01:46 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
21:01:48 <Zakim> +Cooper
21:01:55 <MichaelC> zakim, jcraigh has left Apple
21:01:55 <Zakim> MichaelC, I was not aware that jcraigh was in Apple
21:01:55 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the call
21:01:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', jcraig
21:02:00 <Zakim> + +1.412.901.aaaa
21:02:05 <jcraig> Zakim, who's here?
21:02:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Andy_Heath, janina, ??P2 (muted), [Apple], Cooper, +1.412.901.aaaa
21:02:07 <Zakim> [Apple] has jcraig
21:02:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see rich_, jcraig, jasonjgw, andy, Zakim, RRSAgent, smaug, Lachy, janina, MichaelC, hober, trackbot
21:02:30 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Rich_Simpson
21:02:31 <Zakim> +Rich_Simpson; got it
21:02:48 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P2 is Jason_White
21:02:48 <Zakim> +Jason_White; got it
21:03:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
21:04:46 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
21:04:46 <Zakim> agendum 1. "TPAC2013 https://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/" taken up [from janina]
21:05:42 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
21:05:59 <jcraig> JS: Nov 11-15 in Shenzhen China
21:06:11 <jcraig> IndieUI F2F will be that week
21:06:14 <jasonjgw> We'll try to have our meeting at TPAC for two days, 11-15 November.
21:06:22 <janina> zakim, next item
21:06:22 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Editor's Update" taken up [from janina]
21:06:33 <jcraig> scribe: jasonjgw
21:07:04 <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
21:07:07 <richardschwerdtfeger>  what is the conference code/
21:07:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> ?
21:07:09 <hober> Zakim, Apple.a has me
21:07:09 <Zakim> +hober; got it
21:07:15 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2013May/0019.html
21:07:19 <jcraig> Particularly the directional and linear focus requests.
21:07:19 <jasonjgw> The main question is that distributed to the list regarding edits to events spec.
21:07:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> it says 46343 is not valid!
21:07:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> that is the second time today
21:07:56 <jcraig> For how they are two events: directionalfocusrequest and linearfocusrequest that each will have a detectable focusType attribute in the Event object matching, for example, LINEAR_PREVIOUS, LINEAR_NEXT, DIR_EAST, DIR_SOUTHWEST, etc.
21:07:58 <janina> Hmmm, Rich, it seems to be an issue accepting DTMF, perhaps?
21:08:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:08:51 <jcraig> The other variation would be to have each be a separate named event. For example, focuspreviousrequest, focusnextrequest, focuseastrequest, focussouthwestrequest, etc. I thought adding twelve events would be more confusing than adding two with parameters.
21:08:53 <jasonjgw> James notes the distinction between direction focus events (next, previous, first, last) reserved for maps or similar objects. For now we have DirectionalFocusRequest and LinearFocusRequest with a focus type.
21:09:21 <jasonjgw> The linear focus events are all individually named events.
21:09:27 <jcraig> Does this rest of the group agree with my assumption? If not, why?
21:09:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
21:09:39 <jasonjgw> Does the working group support this scheme?
21:09:54 <janina> ack r
21:10:32 <MichaelC> q+ to say I think fewer events with parameters easier, and also easier to add parameters later if circumstances come up
21:10:47 <jasonjgw> Rich suggests adopting the same vocabulary that is under consideration for SVG Tiny 1.2.
21:10:47 <andy> q+
21:10:48 <janina> ack m
21:10:49 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say I think fewer events with parameters easier, and also easier to add parameters later if circumstances come up
21:10:52 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/
21:11:15 <janina> ack a
21:11:27 <jasonjgw> Michael thinks MMMMichael and Andy think there is more flexibility in having events as parameters.
21:12:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#navigation
21:12:47 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/single-page.html#interact-navigation
21:13:39 <jasonjgw> James observes that it's similar to a CSS proposal, which has similar problems to tabindex.
21:14:39 <jcraig> SVG uses syntax nav-next="url(#Chan2Prog1)"
21:15:01 <jasonjgw> The CSS proposal was deleted from their spec recently, James notes.
21:15:56 <janina> q?
21:16:12 <jasonjgw> The issue raised by Rich, to clarify, is alignment of vocabulary.
21:16:46 <jasonjgw> No further editor's updates.
21:16:59 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
21:16:59 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Default Activation Event" taken up [from See Below]
21:17:05 <jcraig> Nothing more from me except I have to read this section of the SVG spec now . ;-)
21:19:26 <jasonjgw> This agenda item is postponed for now.
21:19:33 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
21:19:33 <Zakim> agendum 4. "user context properties" taken up [from See Below]
21:19:46 <jcraig> Action-50?
21:19:46 <trackbot> ACTION-50 -- James Craig to prepare a list of user context properties that might be able to be covered by media queries -- due 2013-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
21:19:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/50
21:20:36 <jcraig> CSS Conditionals
21:20:41 <jcraig> CSS Media Features
21:20:52 <jasonjgw> James: media queries seems a good opportunity to bring aspects of User Contexts into a well known and accepted format, namely CSS. CSS conditionals and media features are the relevant specs.
21:21:30 <jasonjgw> IndieUI and PF may wish to propose additional media queries.
21:22:02 <jasonjgw> Example: high contrast proposal.
21:22:22 <jcraig> Microsoft proposal for high contrast:
21:22:22 <jcraig> -ms-high-contrast: active | black-on-white | white-on-black | none;
21:22:45 <jcraig> My proposal variant:
21:22:46 <jcraig> display-colors-inverted: inverted | off;
21:22:46 <jcraig> display-contrast: <percentage>;
21:23:11 <jcraig> display-increase-contrast: 100%; may be equivalent to -ms-high-contrast: active;
21:23:12 <jcraig> display-increase-contrast: 0%; may be equivalent to -ms-high-contrast: none;
21:23:41 <jasonjgw> As a variant, James proposed two properties: colours inverted and a contrast percentage value.
21:23:59 <jcraig> @media (display-colors-inverted: inverted) { img, video { filter: invert(100%); } }
21:25:42 <jasonjgw> Discussion of contrast settings on different operating systems.
21:26:11 <jcraig> base-color
21:26:12 <jcraig> base-background-color
21:26:13 <jcraig> base-font-size
21:26:15 <jcraig> base-letter-spacing
21:26:16 <jcraig> base-line-height
21:26:18 <jcraig> base-word-spacing
21:26:19 <jcraig> display-colors-inverted
21:26:20 <jcraig> display-contrast-increased
21:26:21 <jcraig> minimum-font-size
21:26:42 <jasonjgw> James suggests, in answer to a question, that a joint IndieUI/PF position would be the best way to establish a proposal to extend the media queries supported in CSS.
21:28:17 <jasonjgw> James further clarifies that when relevant changes occur, so do the results of the media queries and hence the style applied to the document.
21:29:08 <jasonjgw> James suggests preparing a draft for CSS wg to review.
21:31:15 <jasonjgw> DiscussionTTTThe group notes a need to obtain input regarding different operating systems (Android, Linux and others).
21:31:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:32:18 <jcraig> RS: Check with Google platforms and Linux to make sure this list covers other platforms besides Windows, Mac, and iOS.
21:32:28 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/50
21:36:56 <jasonjgw> zakim, take up item 3
21:36:56 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Default Activation Event" taken up [from See Below via janina]
21:39:09 <jcraig> q+ to ask if equivalent of "click" is sent in default framework controls
21:39:20 <jasonjgw> Eitan notes that some Firefox OS applications do not listen for click events, but only for low-level touch events. The system listens for touch events, not click.
21:40:19 <jcraig> Zakim, who is noisy?
21:40:33 <Zakim> jcraig, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
21:40:48 <jasonjgw> He supports James' proposal that click still be used, but when an object is not activated this way, an IndieUI focus event should be available and used.
21:41:42 <jcraig> ack me
21:41:42 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask if equivalent of "click" is sent in default framework controls
21:41:52 <Zakim> -janina
21:43:06 <jasonjgw> James suggests that if a higher-level UI framework is being proposed, click could still be used as a default activation event (simulated rather than driven by mouse hardware in the touch screen case).
21:45:10 <jasonjgw> Eitan notes that there isn't a common framework at this stage. There are difficulties in determining when a click event has to be simulated.
21:45:44 <jasonjgw> James agrees there is no definition of what constitutes a "click", i.e., on what circumstances the event is to be simulated/dispatched. This needs to be defined per operating system.
21:46:47 <jasonjgw> James notes that the DOM wg considers click an abstract activation event; it is named "click" purely for historical reasons.
21:48:18 <jasonjgw> James proposes a secondary activation event request to be used in limited circumstances, with a strong note that the (abstract) click event defined in DOM should be used where possible.
21:49:09 <jcraig> q+ to ask how a <button> works on Firefox OS if 'click' is not implemented?
21:49:19 <jcraig> q- jas
21:49:24 <jcraig> ack me
21:49:24 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask how a <button> works on Firefox OS if 'click' is not implemented?
21:49:53 <jasonjgw> Eitan suggests there is a need to distinguish clicks caused by pointing devices from those which are simulated, caused for example by underlying touch events.
21:50:59 <Zakim> -Rich_Simpson
21:51:33 <jcraig> ACTION-53?
21:51:33 <trackbot> ACTION-53 -- James Craig to add ~"activate request" event to augment default action trigger when "click" handlers are inappropriate. -- due 2013-05-10 -- OPEN
21:51:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/53
21:51:51 <jasonjgw> He clarifies that applications listening for click and touch events will in some cases receive the input twice, e.g., on a button.
21:51:57 <jcraig> Eitan confirms action 53 should suffice for the Firefox OS needs
21:52:17 <jasonjgw> There is general agreement on James' proposal for IndieUI.
21:55:30 <jcraig> MC: Next call on May 23rd
21:55:43 <jcraig> s/23/29/
21:55:54 <jcraig> RS: I'm out that day.
21:55:57 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:55:59 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
21:56:01 <Zakim> -[Apple.a]
21:56:16 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath
21:56:24 <Zakim> -[Apple]
21:56:25 <Zakim> -Cooper
21:56:29 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
21:56:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/15-indie-ui-minutes.html jcraig
21:56:29 <Zakim> -Jason_White
21:56:30 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()5:00PM has ended
21:56:30 <Zakim> Attendees were janina, Andy_Heath, jcraigh, jcraig, Cooper, +1.412.901.aaaa, Rich_Simpson, Jason_White, [Apple], hober, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [IPcaller]
21:56:48 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
21:56:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/15-indie-ui-minutes.html jcraig
21:58:04 <eeejay> eeejay has joined #indie-ui
22:00:01 <jcraig> s/James proposes a secondary activation event request/Eitan proposes a secondary activation event request/
22:00:45 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
22:00:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/15-indie-ui-minutes.html jcraig
22:01:31 <jcraig> rrsagent, please part
22:01:31 <RRSAgent> I see no action items