07:55:02 RRSAgent has joined #egov 07:55:02 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/13-egov-irc 07:55:30 PhilA has changed the topic to: Transparecny & Accountability, Mon 13 May 07:55:38 zakim, this will be egov 07:55:38 ok, PhilA, I see T&S_EGOV(Eurasian)4:00AM already started 07:57:25 elsa has joined #egov 07:59:34 zakim, code? 07:59:34 the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), PhilA 07:59:47 +[IPcaller] 07:59:53 zakim, ipcaller is me 07:59:53 +PhilA; got it 08:00:21 +[IPcaller] 08:00:34 +[IPcaller.a] 08:01:02 + +3531896aaaa 08:01:05 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2013May/0007.html 08:01:12 chair: Tomasz 08:01:14 + +3737957aabb 08:01:32 tomasz has joined #egov 08:02:42 LarsG has joined #egov 08:03:57 Morten - are you there? 08:04:14 +??P13 08:04:24 zakim, ??p13 is me 08:04:24 +LarsG; got it 08:04:37 ok 08:04:44 scribe: elsa 08:04:48 scribeNick: elsa 08:05:01 topic: Transparency and Accountability 08:05:05 Tomasz is welcoming participants and announcing the speakers and presentations we will have today 08:05:08 trying to get this thing to work... Is this a chat line only? 08:05:38 Morten, you can dial up 08:05:56 to Dial to +1-617-761-6200 using standard phone or skype, and type in the conference code 3468# 08:06:01 Morten - it will be easier if you connect on the phone (by skype) to +1 617 761 6200 conference code 348# 08:06:15 Tomasz request a round of instruction 08:06:25 jf has joined #egov 08:07:22 Elsa from EGOV Center 08:07:24 will get on asap.... skype credits are acting up. 08:07:29 Guillermina from UNU-IIST-EGOV 08:07:58 from Wellington New Zealand 08:08:28 JF and KNY can you introdeuce yourself 08:08:48 Lark - From National Library interested in open data 08:09:16 Morten - is introducing 08:09:25 s/Lark/Lars 08:09:27 Stella - eGovernment Center in Moldova 08:10:04 Stella request to speak before since she needs to take a plane 08:10:28 Frank - from Ireland area of interest e-Gov and e-Gov theory 08:10:48 there are some acronyms who Tomasz cannot recognize 08:10:55 Tomasz intreoduced himself 08:11:00 + +1.919.617.aacc 08:11:26 Hello all, I come from Taiwan. 08:11:26 Tomasz asks Stella to present first - presentations are available on wiki 08:11:33 jf has left #egov 08:11:52 Government of Moldova launched in 2010 egov transformation agenda 08:12:06 use of ICT to transform government and reduce corruption 08:12:08 Topic: Government e-Transformation in Moldova, Vision and Achievements, Stela Mocan 08:12:16 +[IPcaller.aa] 08:12:19 agenda supported by World Bank 08:12:28 Laurence has joined #egov 08:12:33 -> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/images/a/a5/Moldova_-_Governance_e_transformation_13.05.2013.pdf Stela's Slides 08:12:34 pillars of the document 08:13:08 key policy components supporting their action - gov. program in tranbsforming public service 08:13:14 apologies for being late. Just joined audio 08:13:24 using more than technology in government 08:13:35 governments plans to use mobile technlogy 08:13:49 Moldova has good coverage in mobile technology - coverage is 109% 08:14:13 the use of this technology can speed up adoption of e-Gov 08:14:30 all public services should be digitized by 2020 08:14:48 by 2020 services should be available through mobile devices 08:15:05 370 services available 08:15:20 73 electronic services have been implemented 08:16:30 +[IPcaller.aaa] 08:16:38 systems and services that has been launched and also those that will be launched 08:16:51 they are working on sectorial ministers 08:16:51 zakim, mute ipcaller.aaa 08:16:51 [IPcaller.aaa] should now be muted 08:16:55 FYI: I am online and in the call :) 08:17:16 there are other projects implemented directly by the agencies 08:17:30 they partner with 2 mobile operators 08:17:42 they also launched digital signature last year 08:17:53 they also consulted with Estoniana and Austrian partners 08:18:21 they very much rely on PPP 08:18:39 they are digitizing and making online public services 08:18:58 slide 10 shows services already available 08:19:32 to make sure that they can use modern technologies they need proper authentication 08:19:57 they are implementing a service for gove. authentication 08:20:25 they are implementing this authentication service 08:20:41 another important porject to decrease corruption and increase transparecny 08:20:48 is the governemnt payment system 08:21:00 it has been launched last month and they are now connecting agencies 08:21:24 they implemented this with the National Bank of Moldova and Ministry of Finance 08:21:38 they are accepting various payment methods integrated with this system 08:21:41 @ PhilA: Thanks for that. 08:21:52 other services are interated and provided through the government cloud 08:22:29 their cloud provide 3 types of services at infrastructure, services and platform 08:22:45 challenges - increase quality and reduce costs 08:23:01 solve interoperability issues of systems that do not talk to each otehr 08:23:15 they are at the procyurement phase of the gov. interoperability platform 08:24:11 this project are also supported by a pillar of open government initiative 08:24:23 one of th epillars is opne data and open government 08:24:33 they joined Open Government partnership last year 08:24:42 the challenges are described in slide 20 08:25:06 they are proud that last year they achieved almost 70% of the plan for 2012-2013 08:25:32 all open government agenda started with open government data 08:25:41 slide 21 shows the interface of open data portal 08:26:27 they launched the portal - 2 directives were signed by the Prime Minister to support this initiative 08:27:08 they are working on a new release of the portal - it will be realeased by end of this year - they will reach various stakeholders 08:27:54 they are publishing data about their budget since 2000 08:28:08 the inititative has been recognized by international transparency 2months ago 08:28:27 slide 23 shows their priorities - building gov infrastructure 08:28:54 that allows fast digitization of services, deploy mobile technology to reach citizens, engage private sector, use social media 08:29:12 university help them to develop guidelines to use social media 08:30:10 they have very good partners from the very beginning - WB, Singapore, Beligium... 08:30:41 they invite to join them and be aware of their initiatives through social media 08:30:47 she welcomes questions 08:30:53 Tomasz - questions to Stella 08:30:55 q+ 08:31:00 population of Moldova 08:31:07 about 6.5 M 08:31:14 q+ 08:31:34 1M leave inside the country 08:31:54 the mobile digital signature is aceptable and funcitonal through outside the country through roaming 08:32:09 so Moldovan citizens living abroad will be able to access e-servivces 08:32:17 ack Laurence 08:32:42 Laurence - congratulates for a fantastic job - he ask what are the big challenges 08:33:11 the challenges are to make sure that all infrastructure services are used by gov, citizend and privat sector 08:33:16 also to keep momentum 08:33:20 use mobile digital signature 08:33:57 and the 3rd one is ensure that everything yhey bill is institutionalized in government environemnt and is used by civil servants,gov. officials, 08:33:59 Morten has joined #egov 08:34:42 Phil - there are many things he would like tpo follow so he would like Tomasz to provide him her email 08:35:37 q- 08:35:42 he is interested in mobile digital signature and technologies behind that - he is working in a project engaging 25 countries developing this ytpe of infrastructure and he would like to engage them on this 08:35:57 how difficult was to develop the plan when they engaged the OGP 08:36:04 they are also to share what they did 08:36:42 she is happy to share all this information and she asks Tomasz to share their contact details 08:37:12 regarding OGP, they engaged with development partners and in late 2011 they worked in action plan for 3 months 08:37:34 thye had challenges from the government side - political situation they had several elections in last 3 times 08:37:47 they managed to secure political support 08:38:08 they need to use other tools to deliver, like capacity building workshops 08:38:30 throiugh consutlation process they were able to gain support 08:38:36 Tomasz thanks Stella 08:39:05 - +3737957aabb 08:39:13 Tomasz requests Frank to present 08:39:29 Topic: Transparency: Some Inconvenient Thoughts, Frank Bannister 08:39:30 Frank - a very brief presentation on a very complicated subject 08:39:38 he espects this to be controversial presentation 08:39:45 -> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/images/6/6f/Transparency_-_Some_Inconvenient_Truths.pdf Frank's slides 08:39:46 he is interested in governance and e-governance 08:39:54 as well as privacy which inspires 08:40:28 talking about transparency in mainstream government activity 08:41:04 slide 2 - two pics - people who write about gov they come from IS 08:41:21 on the right hand a burocrat trying to be a nerd 08:41:41 the frist group (PA) has its own journals 08:41:58 and thsi group bring egovernment into their theories 08:42:26 the secon gropu from PA 08:42:30 first group (IS) 08:43:15 I havee difficultie sto listen Frank 08:43:23 Phil cna you scribe 08:43:35 Phil? 08:43:35 scribe: PhilA 08:43:44 scribeNick: PhilA 08:44:15 Frank: Slide 3. Left hand side shows some reasons why transparency is seen as a good thing 08:44:31 ... there is the public's right to know 08:45:00 Frank: Goes through the +ve reasons 08:45:31 Frank: Want to focus on the right hand side, the negatives 08:46:46 ... all these interlink 08:47:13 ... slide 4, what is an employer allowed to know about you 08:47:37 ... there's a growing thought that if we're paying you we can monitor you 08:48:26 ... some research showed that 80% of employees at one location were using social media during working hours 08:48:44 ... resulting discussion was, OK, you can use social media but we can monitor what you're doing on it 08:49:56 ... Trinity College is semi public. If I pass on a bad reference for a student, I am now potentially open to a law suit due to openness. So we write a bland reference for fear of expressing the truth 08:51:10 ... the opposite of transparency is used as a tool. Cabinet papers, for example, sealed for 30 years so that discussions can be held in confidence, genuine opinions expressed etc. 08:52:00 ... fear of openness affects people. Not just politicians who can take care of themselves, but staff's careers are at stake. End result is that discussions get taken under ground 08:53:10 Frank: Slide 7. Social media data can be analysed and 'anonymous data' can become personal data. Gives example of a store knowing a woman was pregnant before her father did 08:53:28 ... don't know the risks that some people are running through open data 08:54:03 ... if you put info in the public domain, people are unlikely to understand it. They rely on the media to explain/filter - and they may get it wrong 08:54:35 ... common example is school league tables. All printed, show which schools are best at getting pupils into top universities 08:54:59 ... they ignore sociological data, background etc. The value add that a school provides. Very complex 08:55:57 ... refers to MMR/autism falsehoods, still believed by lots of people despite evidence 08:56:56 ... the more info you give to citizens about how decisions are made, the level of trust in the decisions seems to diminish, not increase 08:57:32 ... impact of transparency is not always positive 08:57:47 tomasz: Thank you for a thought provoking presentation 08:57:51 Questions? 08:58:37 Laurence: I agree with you in general, it's not a simple mantra. But public servants look for reasons to not publish info. There is a tendency to secrecy. FOI Acts have tried to turn that around 08:58:55 ... now say that info is available unless there's a reason to withhold it 08:59:18 ... 'something bad might happen' isn't enough of a reason to keep things closed 08:59:37 ... does complexity give servants an out? 08:59:39 Have a comment 08:59:48 q+ Morten 08:59:50 Civil servants try to keep information for themselvesz 08:59:56 Frank agrees with this 09:00:11 Frank: Used to be a public servant. Collecting data is hard and so tendency os to hang on to it 09:00:33 yes 09:00:44 scribe: elsa 09:00:47 scribeNick: elsa 09:00:49 Frank: it needs carefully thinking constantely 09:01:06 every time you release information it requires carefully thinking 09:01:32 increasingly this is becoming a problem because of the way things can be linked up 09:02:27 a professor was talking how people can be disturbed or getting wrong ideas 09:02:46 it is extremely difficult 09:03:17 natural instict of civil servants is to hold information' 09:03:26 Zakim 09:03:39 can you turn up for the sound again? 09:03:57 zakim, unmute ipcaller.aaa 09:03:57 [IPcaller.aaa] should no longer be muted 09:04:19 on the balancing of differnt factors - would this be to be refered to different contexts to be resolved? (opening varopus data to the public) for instance refer to cultural factors (Tomasz asked) 09:04:44 Thanks PhilA 09:04:59 Frank : I do not believe all people are rationale and may assume media will analyze 09:05:32 q+ 09:05:35 it is contextual 09:06:14 education and context, time frame all comes into it 09:06:26 governance is a very complex system 09:06:44 there are times when governments need to hide from the public and at the same time 09:06:55 tehre are other times when the public can collaborate 09:08:20 Frank: replies a question about transparecny and elimination of corruption - transparency can contribute to elimination of corruption 09:08:34 q- 09:08:44 he is not saying that there are no good things about transparency 09:09:02 zakim, mute ipcaller.aaa 09:09:02 [IPcaller.aaa] should now be muted 09:09:07 it menas that needs to be cautious becasue it can cause a lot of harm (Frank) 09:09:59 Frank - we have corrputoin problems but I am not sure if more transparency can stop the corruption that is going on 09:10:17 soemthing is surprise me that that there is corruption that peopl ecan see 09:10:41 everybody knows about corruptive practcies, so what transparency can add? 09:10:57 thei ssue is that nobody has the courage to stop the problems 09:11:27 thing slike electronic cash can help to reduce corruption 09:11:38 zakim, mute ipcaller.aaa 09:11:38 [IPcaller.aaa] was already muted, PhilA 09:11:44 zakim, unmute ipcaller.aaa 09:11:44 [IPcaller.aaa] should no longer be muted 09:12:03 Morten is welcome 09:12:09 h ei s currently in Georgia 09:13:01 Phil - sorry, I cannot understand 09:13:25 can you continue, my connection is too bad 09:13:30 please 09:14:20 Frank - the type of data that is needed is too expensive to release 09:15:20 Phil - I cannot follow the conversation 09:15:38 can you please, continue scribing? 09:16:16 I can confirm that the link between house prices and school performance is absolute here in Britain 09:17:21 Frank: Raises link between house prices and school league tables in UK and mentions Matthew effect - more given to those with more, more taken from those who have least 09:17:35 Topic: The Danish Approach to eService Take-up and Inclusion, Morten Meyerhoff Nielsen 09:17:47 -> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:W3C_eGOV_The_Danish_Approch_FINAL_20130513_MEYER.pptx Morten's slides 09:17:48 -[IPcaller.aa] 09:18:39 Morten: Focussing on 2 key questions 09:18:52 How can personalisation facilitate greater efficiency in public sector service provision? 09:18:52 How can personalised and user-centric public services increase citizen satisfaction? 09:19:08 Morten: High online reach 09:19:18 ... in Denmark 09:20:21 ... they use online services anyway. But we need to focus on people can use online services but don't, and those that want to but can't - two different groups 09:20:58 ... Slides are expressive 09:22:46 ... can use combination of legislation and practicality to move people to online services 09:23:02 ... i.e. paper based is possible but it's more difficult than online 09:23:10 ... but need to make user friendliness important 09:23:50 ... now on slide 9 09:24:33 ??: Well functioning services are also important 09:25:02 ... ah, right, the presentation itself was talking 09:25:07 ... confusing for a scrib 09:25:45 Morten: All roads must lead to action. Wherever you arrive at the portal, you should be lead to something useful 09:26:06 ... we have info based online services so I don't call up about it, or I have transaction services 09:26:47 ... now on Slide 14 I think 09:27:55 ... talking about feedback loop between Web pages and call centres 09:28:16 ... so call centres update the FAQs. The Web site is not static 09:29:15 neeta_verma has joined #egov 09:29:27 Slide 13 shows personalisation aspects through a secure login 09:29:47 ... this is done without giving the civil servant any access to the personal data 09:30:01 ... we think this will drive the success of the services in DK in future 09:30:29 ... but we know that 20% of the population still won't use the online services for various reasons 09:30:48 ... later slides talk about how we're using the mobile platform 09:31:10 ... using responsive Web Design and not proprietary Apps (thank goodness says the W3C guy) 09:31:34 ... slides 20-21 shows most popular topics. This varies depends on season 09:31:59 ... later slides look at progress against targets 09:34:05 Morten: WE took offline the facility to discuss day to day issues because no one was using it 09:34:19 ... open gov and open data programmes more interesting 09:34:30 ... we don't necessarily call it that in Denmark 09:34:38 yes Phil, he is finishing 09:34:54 ... DK has signed up to the OGP programme which previous administration didn't 09:35:04 sorry, i did not manage time well today 09:35:50 Morten: Talk about sharing core data, company data ewtc. not 'open data' 09:36:00 rrsagent, make logs public 09:36:15 Morten: Our OGP commitments are quite simple 09:36:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:36:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/13-egov-minutes.html PhilA 09:37:18 Morten: Lots of OGP commitments being made through legislation. Authorising the collection of company data is enough for companies to meet one requirement for example 09:38:06 ... we don't make data available for its own sake, we just use it as a tool to achieve things 09:38:24 - +3531896aaaa 09:38:52 morten: Last slides has contact details 09:39:04 tomasz: Any questions? 09:39:43 tomasz: Mandatory online services means offline will be phased out. Digital divide? 09:40:21 Morten: If we don't tell people they should do it then they won't. We want to push people firmly towards it and then handle the small numbers that don't 09:40:37 ... we wantto remove the paper trail 09:43:04 rrsagent, generate minutes 09:43:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/13-egov-minutes.html PhilA 09:43:11 tomasz: Thanks speakers and scribes 09:43:22 -PhilA 09:43:26 -LarsG 09:43:28 -[IPcaller.a] 09:43:32 -[IPcaller.aaa] 09:43:38 -[IPcaller] 09:43:41 zakim, bye 09:43:41 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, PhilA, [IPcaller], +3531896aaaa, +3737957aabb, LarsG, +1.919.617.aacc 09:43:41 Zakim has left #egov 09:43:52 rrsagent, generate minutes 09:43:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/13-egov-minutes.html PhilA 09:49:08 PhilA has left #egov 10:41:06 l_ has joined #egov 12:52:48 TallTed has joined #egov 13:15:04 bhyland has joined #egov