IRC log of ua on 2013-05-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:21:20 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:21:20 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-ua-irc
16:21:22 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:21:22 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #ua
16:21:24 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:21:24 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 39 minutes
16:21:25 [trackbot]: Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:21:25 [trackbot]: Date: 02 May 2013
16:21:32 [allanj]: rrsagent, set logs public
16:21:41 [allanj]: chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
16:21:55 [allanj]: Regrets: Kelly, Eric
16:24:41 [allanj]: agenda+ Change to TPAC dates now at 11-15 November in China
16:24:58 [allanj]: agenda+ Timelines for the charter
16:25:37 [allanj]: Agenda+ Invited Guest Gary Driscoll, ETS, Application/Browser testing ((at the half-hour mark)
16:25:50 [allanj]: agenda+ Scheduling a subgroup to work on implementations for level A
16:26:01 [allanj]: agenda+ Definition for levels
16:26:05 [allanj]: agenda+ scheduling a Face to Face
17:00:06 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:12 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
17:01:14 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
17:01:16 [Zakim]: +Jim_Allan
17:01:41 [Jan]: Jan has joined #ua
17:01:48 [Jan]: zakmi, code?
17:01:53 [Jan]: zakim, code?
17:01:53 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:02:24 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:02:52 [Jan]: zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:02:52 [Zakim]: +Jan; got it
17:02:58 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
17:03:42 [KimPatch]: KimPatch has joined #ua
17:03:54 [Zakim]: +Kim_Patch
17:04:14 [Greg]: Greg has joined #ua
17:04:18 [Zakim]: +Greg_Lowney
17:06:13 [allanj]: agenda?
17:06:33 [allanj]: open item 1
17:06:57 [allanj]: announcement
17:07:27 [allanj]: scribe: allanj
17:08:10 [allanj]: send Jeanne an email if attending
17:11:59 [Zakim]: +Jeanne.a
17:12:00 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
17:13:10 [allanj]: will discuss more at item 6
17:14:01 [allanj]: zakim, close item 1
17:14:01 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Change to TPAC dates now at 11-15 November in China, closed
17:14:02 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:14:02 [Zakim]: 2. Timelines for the charter [from allanj]
17:14:12 [allanj]: zakim, open item 2
17:14:12 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Timelines for the charter" taken up [from allanj]
17:14:29 [allanj]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/draft_uawg_charter20130314
17:15:10 [allanj]: js: what can we do to shorten timelines? World need UAAG done.
17:16:13 [allanj]: more face to faces, longer F2F, subgroups, parallel projects, etc. What resources are needed.
17:16:48 [allanj]: js: big problem with 2 years between LC and CR
17:21:42 [allanj]: ... we have same amount of work, 1 week = 1.5 hours, 3 day f2F = 4+ months of work.
17:21:54 [allanj]: jr: +1
17:22:41 [allanj]: ... there is time to write between meetings.
17:23:03 [allanj]: kp: 3 day f2f =3 montsh
17:23:15 [allanj]: s/montsh/months
17:24:03 [allanj]: js: schedule daily calls or longer calls (3+ hours, not 6 or 8)
17:24:24 [jeanne2]: jeanne2 has joined #ua
17:25:02 [jeanne2]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:25:02 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-ua-minutes.html jeanne2
17:25:32 [jeanne2]: rrsagent, make logs public
17:27:50 [allanj]: action: jallan to redo charter timelines for review with group.
17:27:50 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-826 - Redo charter timelines for review with group. [on Jim Allan - due 2013-05-09].
17:29:22 [allanj]: zakim, close item 2
17:29:22 [Zakim]: agendum 2, Timelines for the charter, closed
17:29:23 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:29:23 [Zakim]: 3. Invited Guest Gary Driscoll, ETS, Application/Browser testing ((at the half-hour mark) [from allanj]
17:29:33 [Zakim]: -Greg_Lowney
17:29:40 [allanj]: zakim, open item 3
17:29:40 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Invited Guest Gary Driscoll, ETS, Application/Browser testing ((at the half-hour mark)" taken up [from allanj]
17:29:51 [Zakim]: + +1.609.734.aaaa
17:31:00 [allanj]: zakim, aaaa is really Gary Driscoll
17:31:00 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'aaaa is really Gary Driscoll', allanj
17:31:14 [allanj]: rrsagent, aaaa is really Gary Driscoll
17:31:14 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'aaaa is really Gary Driscoll', allanj. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:32:32 [allanj]: gd: introducing self. works for ETS, working on APIP, SIF, IMS, and a bunch of other stuff.
17:33:08 [Jan]: http://www.imsglobal.org/apip/
17:33:19 [allanj]: ... Accessible item protocol
17:34:15 [allanj]: introductions by group
17:39:22 [allanj]: gd: working on conformance for IMS and APIP, to transmit data between companies
17:39:40 [allanj]: ... at test delivery, the item must conform to the specification.
17:40:19 [allanj]: ... current conformance testing is an auditing process. walk through application and check off items.
17:41:47 [allanj]: gd: testing in general, develop functional criteria, outsourced to testing company. they automate the test.
17:42:39 [allanj]: ... somebody has sit down and physically go through the application.
17:42:48 [Jan]: q+
17:43:25 [allanj]: ack Jan
17:44:23 [allanj]: jr: look at application to communicate with an a11y API, inspector, etc for manual checks. are there any tools to automate?
17:44:37 [allanj]: gd: don't know of any.
17:45:07 [allanj]: ... we would write a functional test case, then manually test the app
17:46:03 [allanj]: jr: ATAG is doing manual testing based on their suite.
17:46:31 [allanj]: ja: UAAG 10 test suite http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/html401/
17:46:51 [jeanne2]: JA: those tests can be used, they are manual but they are already written
17:47:05 [allanj]: wcag20 test suite http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/html401/
17:47:13 [jeanne2]: GD: They are a pot-pouri of tests, some of which could be scripted.
17:47:56 [jeanne2]: JA: In WCAG, you can find 25-30% of errors with automated test.
17:48:04 [allanj]: html5 http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/approved/
17:48:07 [jeanne2]: GD: Also every used version of those browsers
17:48:50 [jeanne2]: ... we have a list of our supported browsers, and we have to test all of them.
17:49:17 [allanj]: CSS testing http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/
17:49:30 [jeanne2]: JR: Do you have web based apps, or are you still working in standalone apps on Windows or Mac?
17:50:13 [jeanne2]: GD: Mostly .net or java, but we have a lot of legacy applications in cobol and other legacy hardware/software.
17:51:06 [jeanne2]: JA: You will have to test your individual APIP items? If you have people working, they could gain experience helping us test browsers.
17:51:46 [jeanne2]: GD: they would be testing application, not the browser. If they ran into a problem with a browser, they would work around that problem, not test the browser themselves.
17:52:39 [jeanne2]: JA: Do you have any API test tools?
17:53:32 [jeanne2]: GD: I don't think so. We normally don't test APIs, but we might do it when a new technology is introduced where we would want to confirm that the API is working the way we expect.
17:54:15 [jeanne2]: ... I haven't looked at the problem this way before, which doesn't mean that the tools don't exist.
17:55:22 [jeanne2]: JA: We don't always have the right vocalbulary and expertise to explain what we need. Having you use the optimal terms to describe our needs, would be very helpful to us.
17:56:53 [jeanne2]: GD: we all had to agree to use the same terms to communicate.
17:57:21 [jeanne2]: JA: Can you talk to your outsouce people that would make this easier and not so manual?
17:57:46 [jeanne2]: GD: we have people onsite that directs the testing area, and will talk with her and see if they have any tips and advice.
17:57:58 [jeanne2]: ... maybe we could talk directly if that would be helpful.
17:58:54 [jeanne2]: GD: As we are working through the APIP conformance, I'll talk to Mark about communicating useful tests back to the group. And vice versa.
18:01:21 [Zakim]: - +1.609.734.aaaa
18:03:06 [allanj]: js: there isn't a level were we can test the browser chrome. the browsers block it...a security feature.
18:03:39 [allanj]: ja: UA makers should have internal testing tools. should contact them about this issue
18:04:18 [Jan]: Here is the most recemt ATAG2 test list: http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2013/ATAG2-10April2012PublicWD-Tests
18:04:37 [allanj]: zakim, close item 3
18:04:37 [Zakim]: agendum 3, Invited Guest Gary Driscoll, ETS, Application/Browser testing ((at the half-hour mark), closed
18:04:40 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:04:40 [Zakim]: 4. Scheduling a subgroup to work on implementations for level A [from allanj]
18:05:05 [allanj]: zakim, open item 4
18:05:05 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Scheduling a subgroup to work on implementations for level A" taken up [from allanj]
18:06:56 [allanj]: js: Level A SC there are lots, the major browsers meet X of these. need to know what X is based on the spreadsheet
18:07:46 [allanj]: ... want to get a group together to resolve the rest of the Level A that are still open
18:08:20 [jeanne2]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc#gid=0
18:09:47 [allanj]: need to fill in column R.
18:10:18 [allanj]: jr: will try to take a look.
18:11:01 [allanj]: zakim, close item 4
18:11:01 [Zakim]: agendum 4, Scheduling a subgroup to work on implementations for level A, closed
18:11:03 [Zakim]: I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:11:03 [Zakim]: 5. Definition for levels [from allanj]
18:11:13 [allanj]: open item 5
18:11:45 [allanj]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130430/results
18:13:38 [allanj]: greg had comments
18:13:41 [jeanne2]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0039.html
18:14:07 [jeanne2]: action: jeanne to update the definition of levels with comments from GregL from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0039.html
18:14:07 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-827 - Update the definition of levels with comments from GregL from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0039.html [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-05-09].
18:14:40 [allanj]: zakim, close item 5
18:14:40 [Zakim]: agendum 5, Definition for levels, closed
18:14:41 [Zakim]: I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:14:41 [Zakim]: 6. scheduling a Face to Face [from allanj]
18:14:55 [allanj]: open item 6
18:16:51 [allanj]: js: agree today, then meeting would be June 27.
18:17:33 [allanj]: host in austin, or Toronto
18:19:23 [jeanne2]: July 1 is US holiday
18:19:37 [allanj]: first or second week in July in Austin
18:19:42 [jeanne2]: s/July 1 is US holiday/July 1 is CA holiday
18:20:01 [jeanne2]: 2nd week in July is not good at OCAD
18:20:29 [jeanne2]: Jan could come to Austin in 2nd week of July. Anytime except for late August.
18:25:49 [Zakim]: -Jan
18:25:56 [Zakim]: -Kim_Patch
18:25:57 [Zakim]: -Jeanne.a
18:26:05 [Zakim]: -Jim_Allan
18:26:06 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:26:06 [Zakim]: Attendees were Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Jan, Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, +1.609.734.aaaa
18:26:36 [allanj]: discussion to continue. the testing sub group could meet separate from a formal f2f. Jim will create a doodle for the test writing group.
18:26:59 [allanj]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:26:59 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:28:46 [allanj]: zakim, please part
18:28:46 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #ua
18:28:52 [allanj]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:28:52 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:29:03 [allanj]: rrsagent, please part
18:29:03 [RRSAgent]: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-ua-actions.rdf :
18:29:03 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jallan to redo charter timelines for review with group. [1]
18:29:03 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-ua-irc#T17-27-50
18:29:03 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jeanne to update the definition of levels with comments from GregL from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0039.html [2]
18:29:03 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-ua-irc#T18-14-07