20:01:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-techs-tf
20:01:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-irc
20:01:42 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-techs-tf
20:01:59 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #html-techs-tf
20:02:05 <jamesn> jamesn has changed the topic to: HTML5 & ARIA techniques for WCAG TF
20:02:34 <MichaelC> zakim, list conferences
20:02:34 <Zakim> I see Team_(eme)19:16Z, WAI_WCAG()4:00PM active
20:02:35 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are WAI_(GALLERY)3:00PM, UW_POI(POIWG)4:00PM
20:02:42 <MichaelC> zakim, this is wai_wcag
20:02:42 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
20:02:43 <jamesn> zakim, this is WAI_WCAG
20:02:44 <Zakim> jamesn, this was already WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
20:02:44 <Zakim> ok, jamesn; that matches WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
20:02:50 <Zakim> +Cooper
20:03:11 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate this channel with #wai-wcag
20:03:11 <trackbot> Associated this channel with #wai-wcag.
20:05:00 <jamesn> regrets+ Marc_Johlic, Detlev_Fischer
20:05:13 <Zakim> +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:07:11 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130502tfaria/results
20:10:55 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #html-techs-tf
20:11:03 <Loretta> scribe:Loretta
20:11:09 <Loretta> Introductions all around.
20:13:30 <Loretta> James: suggest putting this in the not-needed-for-first-release category
20:13:51 <Loretta> James: focus on more important techniques for first release
20:14:40 <adam_solomon> adam_solomon has joined #html-techs-tf
20:14:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:15:13 <jamesn> zakim, IPcaller is Adam_Solomon
20:15:13 <Zakim> +Adam_Solomon; got it
20:15:22 <adam_solomon> great
20:15:33 <Loretta> Michael: changing category to "Techniques, Postponed" and moving this technique there.
20:16:14 <Loretta> Michael: updating status to capture pointer to these survey comments.
20:20:48 <Loretta> Topic: Using WAI-ARIA range attributes...
20:21:53 <Loretta> James editing description of how native spinbuttons work , for example 1.
20:23:00 <Loretta> Discussion of button mark-up including role=presentation and alt attribute.
20:23:11 <Loretta> Michael suggests omitting alt attribute.
20:23:30 <Loretta> James suggests alt="" and removing role presentation.
20:24:09 <Loretta> James: Who can activate these buttons?
20:24:53 <Loretta> Michael: there is no input field, so screen reader users will need to use buttons.
20:25:03 <Loretta> James: users should use up and down arrow keys.
20:25:10 <Loretta> Paul: will users know that?
20:25:54 <Loretta> Loretta: should we be using the Open Ajax example? Sounds like there are issues.
20:26:19 <Loretta> Should the user be able to type in the value? Or only up and down arrow keys.
20:26:56 <Loretta> Michael: something needs to change.
20:27:38 <Loretta> Michael: enabling the user to type a value isn't a requirement for a spinbutton, but do we want to show an example that doesn't do this?
20:28:35 <Loretta> Discussion of proposed changes....
20:30:21 <Loretta> Screen reader user can't use buttons, must use arrow keys.
20:31:50 <Loretta> Paul: trying a spin button with VoiceOver Utility app, Native control supports focus on control, not individual up and down buttons.
20:32:36 <Loretta> Michael: what is the point of the technique? range attributes
20:33:57 <Loretta> Michael: if want to talk about minimizing errors, it is a very different technique.
20:34:38 <Loretta> Michael: need to talk about why to use attributes from a WCAG perspective.
20:35:49 <Loretta> proposal: drop error usage of range attributes for later (only advisory anyway).
20:36:41 <Loretta> James: looking for better example of an aria spinbutton
20:37:31 <Loretta> paul: jquery mobile range sliders? they don't have up down buttons.
20:38:10 <Loretta> Loretta: alternative is that we write our own live example. But I can't do that.
20:40:01 <Loretta> Loretta: I'm leary of techniques for complete widgets.
20:40:31 <Loretta> James: the ARIA best practices document is looking for a new home.
20:41:38 <Loretta> Loretta: and I worry about whether, by providing one sample implementation of a widget, people conclude that is the only acceptable implementation.
20:43:55 <Loretta> Loretta: I'm fine with moving this to postponed. But because scripting is so intrinsic to the use of ARIA, I think this issue will keep recurring.
20:44:07 <Loretta> Paul: seems like we should make our own example.
20:44:14 <Loretta> James: yes, if we have the time.
20:44:52 <Loretta> james: can we host our own example at W3C?
20:45:02 <Loretta> Michael: yes, we already do this for other techniques.
20:45:20 <Loretta> Jamse: can we use libraries like jquery?
20:45:50 <Loretta> James: who has the code expertise to write their own live examples?
20:45:54 <Loretta> James: yes
20:46:02 <Loretta> Paul: maybe
20:46:29 <Loretta> Adam: I thought we didn't want to put all the details into the technique. Are we changing that?
20:46:58 <Loretta> James: I think our scripting would be simpler than open ajax.
20:47:47 <Loretta> Loretta: I still think that we need a complete live example, but only want to include the relevant snippets in the technique.
20:48:01 <Loretta> James: for this example, we should include the javascript for changing the value
20:48:33 <Loretta> James: Detlev could probably also write live examples.
20:49:19 <Loretta> James: need a strategy meeting for live examples. will put on the agenda for next week.
20:50:38 <Loretta> James: we will move this technique  to the postponed section of the wiki
20:51:29 <Loretta> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/ARIA
20:51:33 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/ARIA
20:51:54 <Loretta> Agenda item: which SC does active-descendant meet?
20:52:12 <Loretta> Adam: does active-descendant apply to 2.1.1?
20:52:27 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
20:52:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html MichaelC
20:52:28 <Loretta> Adam: take example of combo-box.
20:52:52 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
20:52:53 <Loretta> Adam: as you navigate through the list, the active-descendant is changing.
20:53:11 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
20:53:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html MichaelC
20:53:15 <Loretta> James: it is letting a screen reader know where the focus is, but it isn't letting the keyboard user know.
20:53:35 <Loretta> If you take out active-descendant, the combobox will still work for the keyboard user.
20:53:42 <Loretta> Adam: because of the scripting?
20:53:54 <Loretta> James: right.
20:54:06 <Loretta> James: and that is why we concluded that this was a 4.1.2 technique.
20:54:20 <Loretta> Adam: of course active-descendant isn't the true focus.
20:54:31 <Loretta> James: right, but it communicates it to the screen reader.
20:55:09 <MichaelC> meeting: HTML and ARIA Techniques Task Force
20:55:12 <MichaelC> chair: James_Nurthen
20:55:23 <Loretta> James: additional complication: CSS4 (not yet available in any browser) has a new feature that lets you meet focus-visible with active-descendant.
20:55:34 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013AprJun/0036.html
20:56:22 <Loretta> James: but this is in the future; spec'd but not in last call and not implemented anywhere yet. But it will be cool when it works.
20:56:38 <Loretta> Adam: can we conclude that active-descendant will only be for 4.1.2
20:56:54 <Loretta> James, Loretta, Paul: yes
20:57:22 <Loretta> Adam: do we wnat to take out the open ajax example? Ar we talking about removing all of them?
20:57:47 <Loretta> James: we don't have to take out all open ajax examples, only when we think they are confusing things (or if we can write our own really quickly)
20:58:23 <Loretta> Adam: I will tentatively leave the examples in, and the group can review whether they are suitable when the technique is ready for review.
20:58:35 <Loretta> James: this example seems less controversial.
20:59:27 <Loretta> Next week's agenda: finish this survey, handle the next survey, and discuss providing live examples.
20:59:42 <Zakim> -Adam_Solomon
20:59:50 <Zakim> -Cooper
20:59:52 <Zakim> -Paul_Adam
20:59:56 <jamesn> zakim, please part
20:59:56 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were James_Nurthen, Paul_Adam, Cooper, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Adam_Solomon
20:59:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-techs-tf
21:00:18 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
21:00:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
21:02:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
21:02:36 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html,text
21:03:42 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #html-techs-tf
21:03:58 <jamesn> rrsagent, please part
21:03:58 <RRSAgent> I see no action items