15:01:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:01:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-a11y-irc
15:01:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:01:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:02:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
15:02:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 62 minutes ago
15:02:01 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:02:01 <trackbot> Date: 02 May 2013
15:02:49 <st> st has joined #html-a11y
15:03:05 <chaals> zakim, code?
15:03:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chaals
15:03:44 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
15:03:56 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
15:03:56 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has not yet started, chaals
15:03:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see LJWatson, st, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, IanPouncey, MarkS, hober, chaals, MichaelC, janina, trackbot
15:04:42 <chaals> Chair: Chaals
15:04:47 <chaals> agenda+ identify scribe
15:04:47 <chaals> agenda+ Bug Triage sub team
15:05:04 <chaals> agenda+ Wiki, TF pages, similar administrative things
15:05:16 <chaals> agenda+ HTML5 testing
15:05:16 <chaals> agenda+ the former issue-194, transcript element/attributes in HTML5
15:05:27 <chaals> agenda+ longdesc bugs - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013May/0000.html
15:05:42 <chaals> agenda+ Any Other Business
15:06:11 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
15:06:11 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has not yet started, chaals
15:06:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see LJWatson, st, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, IanPouncey, MarkS, hober, chaals, MichaelC, janina, trackbot
15:06:20 <chaals> zakim, this is wai
15:06:20 <Zakim> ok, chaals; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
15:06:25 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
15:06:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mark_Sadecki, John_Foliot, hober, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a], +1.201.785.aaaa, ??P12
15:06:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see LJWatson, st, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, IanPouncey, MarkS, hober, chaals, MichaelC, janina, trackbot
15:06:42 <chaals> zakim, [ipcaller is me
15:06:43 <Zakim> sorry, chaals, I do not recognize a party named '[ipcaller'
15:06:43 <janina> zakim, ??P12 is Janina
15:06:43 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
15:06:51 <st> 201-785-9919 is me
15:06:55 <st> Suzanne Taylor
15:06:58 <chaals> zakim, [ipcaller.a is leonie
15:06:58 <Zakim> +leonie; got it
15:07:09 <chaals> zakim, aaaa is Suzanne
15:07:09 <Zakim> +Suzanne; got it
15:07:14 <MarkS> agenda+ lingering text bugs
15:07:18 <chaals> zakim, take up next agendum
15:07:19 <Zakim> agendum 1. "identify scribe" taken up [from chaals]
15:07:31 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:07:46 <chaals> Scribe: Janina
15:07:47 <janina> scribe: janina
15:07:55 <Zakim> +Judy
15:08:02 <janina> zakim, next item
15:08:02 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, janina
15:08:06 <Zakim> +Cooper
15:08:08 <janina> zakim, close item 1
15:08:08 <Zakim> agendum 1, identify scribe, closed
15:08:09 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:08:09 <Zakim> 2. Bug Triage sub team [from chaals]
15:08:11 <janina> zakim, next item
15:08:11 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Bug Triage sub team" taken up [from chaals]
15:08:31 <janina> leonie: Currently 3 members of this subteam
15:08:54 <janina> leonie: One moving to NZ and may be unable to continue, leaving two
15:08:59 <janina> leonie: Looking for recruits
15:09:21 <janina> jf: What's involved?
15:09:22 <chaals> ACTION: Chaals to send recruiting call to TF mailing list
15:09:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-178 - Send recruiting call to TF mailing list [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-09].
15:09:30 <janina> leonie: Currently fairly quiet
15:09:40 <janina> leonie: We meet Wednesdays at 14:00Z
15:10:10 <janina> leonie: Open to meeting time adjustments
15:10:18 <janina> jf: Willing to consider
15:10:23 <janina> ms: Also me
15:11:07 <janina> cn: Will also sub to list
15:11:57 <janina> suzanne: Will look for opportunities as I get acquainted
15:12:12 <JF> Q+
15:12:27 <janina> jb: Noting it's a good place to get acquainted with the breadth of issues we consider
15:12:49 <janina> suzanne: OK, sign me up too!
15:12:51 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
15:12:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mark_Sadecki, John_Foliot, hober, [IPcaller], leonie, Suzanne, Janina, Judy, Cooper
15:12:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see Judy, LJWatson, st, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, IanPouncey, MarkS, hober, chaals, MichaelC, janina, trackbot
15:13:08 <janina> [pause for personal intros]
15:13:10 <chaals> zakim, [IPcaller] is chaals
15:13:10 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
15:17:14 <chaals> zakim, next item
15:17:14 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, chaals
15:17:20 <chaals> ack jo
15:17:24 <chaals> ack jf
15:17:26 <JF> ack JF
15:17:28 <chaals> zakim, next item
15:17:28 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Wiki, TF pages, similar administrative things" taken up [from chaals]
15:17:34 <janina> zakim, next item
15:17:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, janina
15:18:07 <MarkS> q+
15:18:21 <janina> cn: Looking to see whether there's progress updating?
15:18:36 <chaals> ack marks
15:18:38 <janina> cn: Also looking to people willing to edit and bring the wiki up to date
15:18:46 <MarkS> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings/Minutes
15:18:47 <MarkS> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Scribe_List#Scheduled_Scribes
15:18:57 <janina> ms: Have been editing and have brought scribe list and minutes up to date
15:19:17 <Judy> q+
15:19:17 <chaals> ACTION: chaals to post a modified version of leonie's wiki page summary
15:19:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-179 - Post a modified version of leonie's wiki page summary [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-09].
15:19:32 <janina> janina: Wondering about our deliverables?
15:19:35 <chaals> ack ju
15:19:52 <janina> jb: Yes, there's a coming HTML-WG rechartering that lists various deliverables, some of which are ours
15:20:15 <LJWatson> The email I sent to the TF list: http://www.w3.org/mid/002c01ce2664$16bd1a80$44374f80$@tink.co.uk
15:20:20 <janina> jb: One item os an HTML to A11y APIs mapping doc
15:20:48 <janina> jb: Currently there are longdesc extenion and the ARIA Mappings
15:21:33 <chaals> q+
15:21:53 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
15:23:45 <janina> janina: That should ARIA in HTML; Longdesc; HTML to A11y APIs; Alt Text; and expecting Transcript
15:23:46 <David> David has joined #html-a11y
15:23:53 <chaals> q?
15:23:55 <chaals> ack me
15:24:06 <chaals> zakim, next item
15:24:06 <Zakim> agendum 4. "HTML5 testing" taken up [from chaals]
15:24:32 <janina> cn: A major topic at the HTML-WG F2F last week
15:25:11 <janina> cn: One concern is to test a11y in HTML, needing our assistance in that
15:25:28 <Judy> q+
15:25:44 <janina> cn: Probably another year to bring this to completion
15:26:08 <LJWatson> q+
15:26:11 <janina> cn: F2F did walk the entire spec to categorize which aspects are widely known to be working, which need testing
15:26:23 <chaals> ack ju
15:27:07 <janina> jb: Still sorting testing work as it will require substantial resources
15:27:14 <chaals> s/need testing/need testing. It would be good for us to do that, but maybe not today (it is likely to take a few hours just to walk through the list/)
15:27:40 <janina> jb: Need to make sure there's good understanding on how to test a11y including what can be automated, what needs manual, etc
15:28:19 <janina> jb: Concern is that too much reliance on automated may not sufficiently exercise a11y
15:28:44 <janina> q+
15:29:13 <chaals> ack lj
15:29:39 <janina> leonie: Not understanding what the outcomes are expected to be?
15:29:42 <chaals> q+ to explain to leonie what I expect
15:29:49 <janina> leonie: That a11y features work?
15:29:54 <chaals> ack janina
15:30:11 <Judy> s/Need to make sure/On the team side we are working to make sure that/
15:30:57 <chaals> JS: A couple of years ago we walked though to look at things that need work. Could be time to do that again - in particular we know we need to look at acccesskey, while we believe that alt works ok
15:31:00 <chaals> ack me
15:31:00 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to explain to leonie what I expect
15:31:10 <janina> janina: Suggesting this gives us a good reason to walk the spec from an a11y viewpoint
15:31:44 <janina> cn: To Leonie: That we are satisfied the spec explains how to provide a11y support interoperably
15:32:26 <janina> cn: There are things where it may be unclear how to implement in order that a11y works
15:33:20 <chaals> js: Think canvas is a good example - sometimes fallback text is there but is more or less impossible to work with in practice.
15:33:26 <Judy> q+
15:33:30 <chaals> ack ju
15:34:10 <janina> jb: Usually, we've talked evaluating content in the past, but now we're looking at ua implementations
15:34:15 <chaals> q+
15:34:31 <chaals> ack me
15:35:12 <janina> cn: So, we're evaluating the HTML specifications, that they lead to good implementations that work all around. Do people generally get it right?
15:35:46 <janina> cn: Expect this may take quite a bit of our time in the next year because it is very important
15:35:54 <Judy> q+
15:35:59 <chaals> ack ju
15:36:00 <janina> cn: Is there more on this today? Only intended an intro at this time.
15:36:20 <janina> jb: One question for people to start considering: Whether or not we need a subteam for this
15:36:57 <janina> jb: Expect so, though the plenary TF will need updates and to provide input regularly
15:37:04 <chaals> q+
15:37:39 <chaals> ack me
15:38:06 <janina> cn: Unsure we need a new subteam, or transition Bug Triage? Though not a decision today
15:38:07 <MarkS> +1 Sub Team
15:38:31 <janina> cn: As Leonie asked, yes, this a good opportunity to work more closely in the HTML-WG
15:38:59 <chaals> zakim, next item
15:38:59 <Zakim> agendum 5. "the former issue-194, transcript element/attributes in HTML5" taken up [from chaals]
15:39:37 <janina> cn: Previously there were two proposals but no consensus reached
15:40:17 <janina> cn: F2F suggested the TF take this on, if we want this specified for 5.0, as an extention spec
15:40:57 <janina> cn: So, we would be looking for a proposal (or several), then a TF decision to adopt one or another as a TF extention
15:41:08 <janina> s/extention/extension/
15:42:32 <janina> jf: We previously had a proposal that had fairly wide support, but not complete support ...
15:42:40 <janina> cn: Wait, do you plan to propose a spec?
15:42:42 <janina> jf: Yes
15:42:55 <janina> ted: Eventually. If JF proposes, will speed mine up
15:43:23 <janina> cn: So, if JF proposes, Ted will provide either a counter proposal or a list of changes
15:43:40 <chaals> zakim, next item
15:43:40 <Zakim> agendum 6. "longdesc bugs - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013May/0000.html" taken up [from chaals]
15:44:34 <chaals> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21565
15:44:54 <janina> Bug re longdesc on presentational images ...
15:45:23 <janina> cn: Not really a problem with longdesc, but on when to provide for longdesc
15:45:30 <janina> cn: propose resolution is "invalid"
15:45:57 <chaals> RESOLUTION: 21565 is invalid
15:45:58 <JF> +1
15:46:18 <chaals> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21781 affect of base /  xml:base
15:46:44 <janina> cn: Suggest we wait to resolve this one
15:47:50 <chaals> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21778 user agents MUST  present longdesc.
15:48:05 <janina> [no disagreement]
15:49:17 <chaals> RESOLUTION: 21781 stays open for now
15:49:34 <chaals> CN: Proposal was to make the requirment for presenting a longdesc as a must instead of should
15:49:48 <chaals> … another proposal asked to allow user agents to ignore invalid longdesc
15:49:57 <chaals> … these directly contradict each other...
15:50:09 <chaals> … and there is another proposal to deal wit hte specific case of blank longdesc.
15:50:49 <chaals> … My proposal to resolve all these is to make a requirement that "user agents MUST present valid URIs in longdesc through normal interfaces, and to accessibility APIs"
15:51:16 <Judy> s/normal interfaces/normal user interfaces/
15:52:09 <janina> cn: Reason to not specify error handling is lack of experience, etc., and we agreed previously not to do that
15:52:26 <janina> CN: So a "must" when URI is valid
15:52:30 <JF> +1
15:53:07 <janina> ted: Is this a requirement on user agents or AT?
15:53:14 <janina> cn: On whatever the circumstance
15:53:23 <janina> ted: Think we should be clear on which conformance class
15:58:15 <MarkS> +1
15:58:30 <janina> suzanne: Sounds like browser opens if determined to be a URI, else allows either broser or AT for additional determinations
15:59:01 <chaals> RESOLUTION: close 21778 and related bugs with "user agents MUST present valid URIs in longdesc through normal user interfaces, and to accessibility APIs" without making requirements on what to do in the error condition
15:59:16 <MarkS> zakim, agenda?
15:59:16 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:59:17 <Zakim> 6. longdesc bugs - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013May/0000.html [from chaals]
15:59:17 <Zakim> 7. Any Other Business [from chaals]
15:59:17 <Zakim> 8. lingering text bugs [from MarkS]
16:00:02 <janina> ted: Expect this to be controversial in WG
16:00:34 <janina> cn: Believe general consensus is for browsers to implement longdesc directly, but not unanimity on this
16:01:16 <chaals> q+
16:02:20 <chaals> ack me
16:02:51 <janina> cn: Don't believe wordsmithing will help
16:04:15 <janina> [no disagreement]
16:04:20 <Zakim> -leonie
16:04:39 <janina> [Adjournment]
16:04:39 <Zakim> -hober
16:04:41 <janina> zakim, bye
16:04:41 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Mark_Sadecki, John_Foliot, hober, +1.201.785.aaaa, Janina, leonie, Suzanne, Judy, Cooper, chaals, David_MacDonald
16:04:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:04:42 <chaals> adjourned
16:04:47 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
16:18:34 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: HTML-A11Y Teleconference; Thursday 9 May at 15:00Z for 60 minutes
17:05:51 <davidb> davidb has joined #html-a11y
17:21:18 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y
17:38:21 <David_> David_ has joined #html-a11y
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