IRC log of webapps on 2013-04-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:09:55 [RRSAgent]
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16:09:55 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:11:30 [tantek]
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16:12:06 [Zakim]
RWC_WAF(WAF2F)12:00PM has now started
16:12:12 [Zakim]
16:12:29 [smaug]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
16:12:30 [Zakim]
+Olli_Pettay; got it
16:12:36 [dglazkov]
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16:12:38 [smaug]
Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:12:39 [Zakim]
ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
16:13:04 [ArtB]
Meeting: Web Applications WG f2f Meeting
16:13:21 [ArtB]
Date: 25 April 2013
16:13:44 [ArtB]
16:14:07 [a12u]
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16:14:24 [aizu]
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16:14:33 [chaals]
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16:14:51 [Ms2ger]
ArtB, anything interesting today?
16:15:36 [chaals]
Ms2ger: no, we're just going to do some work.
16:16:21 [Ms2ger]
Zakim, code?
16:16:21 [Zakim]
the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, Ms2ger
16:16:30 [Zakim]
16:16:36 [Ms2ger]
Zakim, P0 is me
16:16:36 [Zakim]
sorry, Ms2ger, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'
16:16:44 [Ms2ger]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
16:16:44 [Zakim]
+Ms2ger; got it
16:17:08 [Ms2ger]
Not that I hear anything
16:17:36 [Ms2ger]
That's something
16:17:38 [smaug]
did you hear now something :)
16:17:45 [Ms2ger]
Was that you?
16:18:01 [smaug]
16:18:02 [israelh]
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16:18:15 [Ms2ger]
Seems to be a bit of noise on the line :)
16:20:55 [Ms2ger]
So we're the only attendees?
16:21:00 [lgombos]
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16:21:37 [ArtB]
zakim, who is here?
16:21:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Ms2ger
16:21:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see lgombos, israelh, abraud, chaals, aizu, dglazkov, tantek, RRSAgent, Zakim, adrianba, fjh, glenn_, ArtB, smaug, davidb, karl, Ms2ger, marcosc, danielfilho|w, logbot,
16:21:38 [Zakim]
... timeless, Dashiva, gavin, heath, slightlyoff, scheib, Hixie, jgraham
16:21:50 [smaug]
16:21:54 [plh]
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16:21:57 [abraud]
present+ Arnaud_Braud
16:22:02 [plh]
zakim, passcode?
16:22:02 [Zakim]
the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, plh
16:22:17 [Ms2ger]
Ms2ger has changed the topic to: WebApps WG F2F:; channel log = ; Shadowy characters and Importers welcome
16:22:41 [Zakim]
16:22:43 [Ms2ger]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:22:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ms2ger
16:22:54 [ArtB]
Chair: Art, Charles
16:23:11 [Ms2ger]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:23:25 [wonsuk]
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16:23:48 [ArtB]
Scribe: Josh_Soref
16:23:56 [jeff]
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16:24:06 [ArtB]
Present: Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile, Josh_Soref
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16:24:30 [bryan]
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16:24:39 [krisk]
zakim, krisk present
16:24:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'krisk present', krisk
16:24:47 [eliot]
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16:24:48 [Ms2ger]
ScribeNick: timeless
16:25:02 [ArtB]
Present+ Yves_Lafon
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lyle has joined #webapps
16:25:20 [Bin_Hu]
present+ Bin_Hu
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16:25:31 [ArtB]
Present+ Tyler_Barton, Israel_Hilerio
16:25:46 [eliot]
present+ eliot
16:25:51 [timeless]
scribe: Josh_Soref
16:25:51 [timeless]
scribenick: timeless
16:25:51 [timeless]
topic: Introductions
16:25:51 [timeless]
[ Chaals takes the mic around the room and has everyone introduce themselves ]
16:26:05 [adrianba]
Present+ adrianba
16:26:08 [ArtB]
Present+ Glenn_Adams
16:26:12 [wonsuk]
Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
16:26:25 [ArtB]
Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
16:27:10 [aizu]
Present+ aizu
16:27:17 [ArtB]
Present+ Olli_Pettay
16:27:22 [ArtB]
Present+ Ms2ger
16:27:39 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:27:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
16:27:40 [yosuke]
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16:27:58 [JonathanJ]
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16:28:00 [timeless]
s/ArtB, anything interesting today?/
16:28:06 [smaug]
16:28:12 [JonathanJ]
Present+ Jonghong_Jeon
16:28:15 [timeless]
s/Ms2ger: no, we're just going to do some work.//
16:28:19 [timeless]
Topic: Agenda
16:28:25 [timeless]
ArtB: we preallocated some time slots
16:28:32 [MikeSmith]
Present+ MikeSmith
16:28:36 [timeless]
... and we listed some topics, that chaals and i wanted to discuss
16:28:44 [timeless]
... we have probably half of the meeting unallocated
16:28:52 [timeless]
... we can try to move potential topics into timeslots
16:28:57 [timeless]
... or if people have suggestions, we can add them
16:29:02 [yosuke]
Present+ YosukeFunahashi
16:29:06 [timeless]
... chaals on the whiteboard is trying to complete the schedule as much as we can
16:29:22 [timeless]
... usually in these meetings, we try to go through the spec status dashboard (PubStatus)
16:29:28 [timeless]
... to make sure everyone is on the same page wrt the status
16:29:37 [timeless]
... a really useful document for non-WG members
16:29:43 [timeless]
... wrt each spec
16:29:48 [Jungkee]
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16:29:52 [timeless]
... it's pretty important to keep those up to date
16:30:00 [timeless]
s/Not that I hear anything//
16:30:07 [timeless]
16:30:12 [timeless]
s/So we're the only attendees?//
16:30:18 [timeless]
... anyone have any topics?
16:30:26 [timeless]
... i know Jungkee asked to allocate time for XHR and Progress Events
16:30:29 [timeless]
... he suggested an hour for that
16:30:38 [timeless]
... should we grab the 4:30pm-5:30 slot?
16:30:43 [timeless]
Jungkee: less than 1 hour
16:30:47 [timeless]
... but more than 30mins
16:30:51 [timeless]
... probably start from
16:30:59 [timeless]
s/Was that you?//
16:31:04 [timeless]
16:31:13 [timeless]
Jungkee: 4pm-4:40?
16:31:21 [timeless]
chaals: let's call that 5pm and if you're good, we get to go home early
16:31:28 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:31:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
16:31:41 [timeless]
ArtB: sounds good to me, i'll leave an extra slot at 5:30
16:31:48 [timeless]
... anyone else have preferences?
16:31:54 [timeless]
... I have a slot for CR Interop status
16:32:04 [timeless]
... the only 4 specs that remain are specs where Hixie is the lead editor
16:32:16 [timeless]
... i'd like to spend some time to give an update on where i think we are on those specs
16:32:24 [timeless]
... SSE, Web Messaging, Sockets, Workers
16:32:31 [timeless]
... - anyone think it will require more than a few minutes?
16:32:52 [timeless]
s/Seems to be a bit of noise on the line :)//
16:32:57 [timeless]
... above DOM3 was IME
16:33:03 [timeless]
chaals: we had a request from PF WG
16:33:08 [timeless]
... put into a time slot at 3:30pm
16:33:13 [timeless]
... they can shift that if we need to
16:33:31 [timeless]
s/PF WG/PF WG to talk about IME/
16:33:40 [timeless]
... we have a 2:30pm session w/ WebAppSec on CSP
16:33:47 [timeless]
... is 30mins enough to do CSP?
16:33:51 [timeless]
ArtB: i think so
16:33:53 [timeless]
chaals: alright
16:33:56 [adrianba]
16:34:01 [timeless]
s/That's something//
16:34:12 [JaeChung]
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16:34:13 [Jungkee]
Present+ Jungkee_Song
16:34:17 [timeless]
ArtB: next on the list was AppCache
16:34:20 [timeless]
... sicking registered
16:34:25 [timeless]
chaals: he's w/ arun, they're late
16:34:30 [timeless]
ArtB: should we slot them in?
16:34:37 [timeless]
chaals: i'd avoid slotting them in, as they're not here
16:34:46 [timeless]
... we could put them in the afternoon
16:34:50 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:34:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
16:34:57 [JaeChung]
Present+ Jae Chung
16:35:18 [timeless]
s/did you hear now something :)//
16:35:21 [timeless]
ArtB: AppManifest?
16:35:31 [timeless]
... i know SysApps is doing a bunch of work
16:35:35 [timeless]
... how about after XHR?
16:35:43 [timeless]
chaals: we might do it with AppCache
16:35:50 [timeless]
ArtB: ok
16:35:54 [timeless]
... how many SysApps members here?
16:35:57 [timeless]
... quite a few?
16:36:01 [timeless]
chaals: 6 or 7
16:36:07 [timeless]
ArtB: DOM 3 Events?
16:36:20 [timeless]
... i know Travis and Gary are excited to spend time on that
16:36:26 [timeless]
chaals: in the morning?
16:36:33 [timeless]
Travis: that's fine
16:36:36 [timeless]
ArtB: where?
16:36:39 [timeless]
chaals: running up to lunch
16:36:52 [timeless]
ArtB: after IndexedDB?
16:37:01 [timeless]
chaals: if sicking isn't here, we're stuck on IndexedDB
16:37:06 [timeless]
ArtB: dom4, status and plans?
16:37:11 [timeless]
... when we do Dashboard?
16:37:14 [timeless]
chaals: yeah
16:37:19 [timeless]
ArtB: File API?
16:37:25 [timeless]
... hard to do w/ arun
16:37:28 [timeless]
chaals: we could do that last
16:37:38 [timeless]
bryan: do File related APIs as a block?
16:37:43 [timeless]
ArtB: makes sense
16:37:45 [JonathanJ]
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16:37:47 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:37:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
16:37:58 [timeless]
ArtB: full screen?
16:38:02 [timeless]
chaals: dashboard
16:38:04 [timeless]
ArtB: UI Events?
16:38:13 [tlr]
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16:38:14 [timeless]
ArtB: Travis update during dashboard?
16:38:18 [timeless]
ArtB: dashboard
16:38:36 [timeless]
present+ Travis_Leithead
16:38:45 [timeless]
16:38:49 [timeless]
chaals: dashboard
16:39:01 [jeffh]
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16:39:05 [hober]
present+ hober
16:39:35 [timeless]
israelh: on fullscreen
16:39:42 [bryan]
present+ Bryan_Sullivan
16:39:46 [timeless]
chaals: dashboard lets you have some time
16:39:51 [timeless]
... if we need more, we schedule time
16:39:58 [timeless]
chaals: admin, chartering, misc
16:40:02 [timeless]
... when do you want to do that?
16:40:06 [timeless]
ArtB: tomorrow morning?
16:40:10 [timeless]
chaals: people won't be there in the morning
16:40:16 [timeless]
ArtB: after the break in the morning?
16:40:17 [timeless]
chaals: sure
16:40:50 [timeless]
ArtB: WebIDL?
16:40:55 [timeless]
plh: i have a few things to say
16:40:59 [timeless]
ArtB: tomorrow after testing?
16:41:00 [smaug]
heycam|away should participate WebIDL discussion
16:41:03 [timeless]
plh: perfect
16:41:19 [timeless]
present+ Philippe_Le_Hegaret
16:41:31 [timeless]
chaals: heycam would be better w/ afternoon
16:41:41 [timeless]
... bounce something somewhere
16:41:48 [timeless]
... AppCache to early tomorrow moring
16:42:02 [timeless]
Daniel_Austin: couple of stragglers
16:42:14 [timeless]
eric: Eric from Google
16:42:21 [timeless]
sicking: Jonas Sicking
16:42:26 [timeless]
present+ Jonas_Sicking
16:42:36 [timeless]
present+ Eric_Uhrhane
16:42:45 [timeless]
israelh: can we do AppCache
16:42:52 [timeless]
chaals: ok, we'll do AppCache first thing this morning
16:43:05 [timeless]
... AppCache and Manifests and IndexedDB and DOM3 events
16:43:09 [timeless]
... plenty of entertainment
16:43:19 [timeless]
ArtB: not sure we need an hour for IndexedDB
16:43:33 [timeless]
ArtB: any other hot topics?
16:43:41 [timeless]
... we have Testing for Tomorrow morning
16:43:59 [timeless]
... 10am-11 tomorrow morning
16:44:09 [timeless]
bryan: we'll talk about AppCache w/ Manifest
16:44:16 [timeless]
... what about WebIntents / WebActivities?
16:44:22 [timeless]
ArtB: we can hit it during the dashboard
16:44:34 [timeless]
bryan: it'd be good to hear more than a moment's talk about it...
16:44:40 [timeless]
ArtB: anyone have more to say about WebIntents?
16:44:47 [timeless]
... let's take are of it during the dashboard
16:44:56 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:44:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
16:45:16 [timeless]
s/did you hear now something :)//
16:45:32 [timeless]
i|w3|topic: Dashboard / PubStatus|
16:45:34 [acolwell]
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16:45:36 [timeless]
ArtB: CORS is first
16:45:47 [timeless]
... we have WebAppSec coming over to talk about CSP
16:45:54 [timeless]
... they can give us a quick update on CORS CR
16:46:00 [timeless]
... anyone have concerns on CORS?
16:46:07 [timeless]
... next: Clipboard APIs and events
16:46:17 [timeless]
... halford published a new update on that
16:46:21 [timeless]
... quite a bit of discussion
16:46:27 [timeless]
... i suspect an LC is a few months away at least
16:46:33 [timeless]
... anyone else on clipboard?
16:46:45 [timeless]
... we'll skip dimitri's web components, he has an hour this afternoon
16:46:52 [tantek]
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16:46:52 [timeless]
... dom4, lachlan hunt is the editor of record
16:46:57 [timeless]
... he's an invited expert
16:47:04 [timeless]
... he left opera this last winter
16:47:10 [timeless]
... dom4 that anne is doing has involved
16:47:18 [timeless]
... it includes a rough specification of futures
16:47:23 [timeless]
... i don't think lachlan has moved it into his spec
16:47:25 [timeless]
Travis: no
16:47:32 [timeless]
ArtB: we could rathole on this
16:47:40 [timeless]
... anyone willing to step up and help lachlan
16:47:50 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:47:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
16:48:02 [timeless]
chaals: lachlan may be busy
16:48:10 [timeless]
... anyone wants to put their hand up and help...
16:48:16 [timeless]
... rathole on futures, i think we should take
16:48:23 [timeless]
... coordination w/ TC39
16:48:26 [timeless]
... WebIDL stuff
16:48:59 [timeless]
16:49:30 [timeless]
ArtB: anything that depends on dom4/futures is going to run into a problem
16:49:40 [timeless]
glenn_: HTML5
16:49:44 [timeless]
chaals: not our spec
16:49:49 [timeless]
ArtB: certainly not the only spec
16:49:55 [timeless]
chaals: probably the highest priority
16:50:04 [timeless]
... know someone who wants to be famous, and hairless
16:50:10 [timeless]
... we'd appreciate names, addresses, ...
16:50:29 [timeless]
s/did you hear now something/XX/
16:50:40 [timeless]
glenn_: why not send an email to the list soliciting editors?
16:50:44 [timeless]
chaals: we will
16:50:51 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow work with Chaals on a call for editor help for DOM4
16:50:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-675 - Work with Chaals on a call for editor help for DOM4 [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
16:50:54 [timeless]
... but please raise your hand to get the mic, so the people on the phone can hear
16:51:01 [timeless]
ArtB: DOM Parsing and Serialization
16:51:07 [timeless]
Travis: extremely stable spec
16:51:14 [timeless]
... one open bug to update Status of document
16:51:19 [timeless]
... to say it's a mirror of Ms2ger 's document
16:51:25 [timeless]
... i don't believe we have any tests yet
16:51:30 [timeless]
... i believe next step is
16:51:33 [timeless]
... make update, fix bug
16:51:37 [timeless]
... propose LC
16:51:40 [timeless]
... and start working on test suite
16:51:49 [timeless]
chaals: test facilitator?
16:51:55 [timeless]
Travis: TBD
16:52:02 [timeless]
Ms2ger: I have some tests
16:52:12 [timeless]
ArtB: can you take an action to work on that bug?
16:52:15 [timeless]
Travis: yes
16:52:20 [timeless]
chaals: estimate of LC schedule?
16:52:25 [ArtB]
ACTION: travis resolve last bug for DOM P&S and notify Art so a CfC for LC can be started
16:52:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-676 - Resolve last bug for DOM P&S and notify Art so a CfC for LC can be started [on Travis Leithead - due 2013-05-02].
16:52:39 [timeless]
Travis: a week or two to issue CfC
16:52:43 [timeless]
chaals: you've got a week
16:52:51 [timeless]
chaals: File API is running behind schedule
16:52:55 [timeless]
ArtB: we allocated that
16:52:59 [timeless]
chaals: this afternoon
16:53:06 [timeless]
ArtB: Fullscreen?
16:53:15 [timeless]
israelh: a couple things we found
16:53:21 [timeless]
... there's a reference to the FullScreen Event
16:53:24 [timeless]
... that's talked about in the Spec
16:53:28 [timeless]
... but isn't part of the IDL
16:53:37 [timeless]
... everyone does implement on onevent handler
16:53:42 [timeless]
... but it isn't in the document
16:53:51 [timeless]
... the only thing is
16:54:02 [timeless]
... do we need a dependency between Screen Orientation and Fullscreen?
16:54:10 [timeless]
... putting part of spec w/ what others have done
16:54:20 [timeless]
... and other is should there be a relationship w/ screen orientation
16:54:22 [Travis]
Travis has joined #webapps
16:54:32 [timeless]
ArtB: we had a few people join us
16:54:46 [timeless]
alec_flett: indexeddb
16:54:53 [timeless]
joshua_bell: joshua bell, google
16:55:08 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:55:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
16:55:24 [timeless]
ArtB: there's an active thread on israelh 's question
16:55:31 [timeless]
... screen orientation is israelh 's
16:55:36 [timeless]
... fullscreen is tantek and anne
16:55:46 [timeless]
ArtB: chaals said asking the chairs is not the right thing
16:55:50 [timeless]
... ask the room
16:55:54 [timeless]
israelh: it was a question for the room
16:56:15 [timeless]
... is there an objection to adding the idl definitions to the spec
16:56:19 [timeless]
... Mozilla and Chrome do it
16:56:21 [timeless]
chaals: seems logical
16:56:30 [timeless]
israelh: do we need the editor here?
16:56:58 [timeless]
ArtB: it's tricky since anne and tantek aren't members
16:57:13 [timeless]
... tantek is a member of CSS, and it's a joint deliverable w/ them
16:57:34 [timeless]
ArtB: Gamepad
16:57:40 [timeless]
... i haven't gotten updates from scott/ted on it
16:57:45 [timeless]
... any data on implementation status
16:57:53 [timeless]
smaug: ted landed a patch to gecko
16:58:00 [timeless]
... and has been fixing bugs in the spec
16:58:02 [timeless]
... it's changing
16:58:12 [timeless]
chaals: implementation status beyond gecko?
16:58:21 [timeless]
smaug: gecko has some support in nightlies
16:58:23 [timeless]
... and chrome has some
16:58:31 [timeless]
... but i don't know if it's the same, as the spec is changing
16:58:36 [timeless]
chaals: testing?
16:58:43 [timeless]
... do you know more than we do?
16:58:47 [timeless]
smaug: no
16:59:20 [timeless]
ArtB: next is Web Components, IndexedDB
16:59:23 [fjh]
fjh has left #webapps
16:59:25 [timeless]
... Java Bindings
16:59:31 [timeless]
Travis: who has the action for that?
16:59:35 [timeless]
... heycam?
16:59:36 [timeless]
chaals: yes
16:59:41 [timeless]
ArtB: should we push to NOTE?
16:59:44 [timeless]
Travis: i'd like to
16:59:52 [timeless]
... i don't think anyone would object
17:00:06 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow start a CfC to move Java bindinings for WebIDL to WG Note
17:00:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-677 - Start a CfC to move Java bindinings for WebIDL to WG Note [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:00:14 [timeless]
ArtB: pointer lock
17:00:19 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
17:00:35 [timeless]
smaug: non fullscreen pointer lock is supported in nightlies
17:00:43 [timeless]
... and i think in Alpha
17:00:48 [timeless]
... and i think in Chrome
17:00:49 [sicking]
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17:00:51 [timeless]
17:00:56 [timeless]
... i think they're pretty close
17:01:06 [timeless]
ArtB: action on chaals / i to chase vincent on getting to LC
17:01:15 [timeless]
... does the spec look pretty good, or are there major issues?
17:01:19 [timeless]
smaug: i think there are issues
17:01:24 [timeless]
... on how permissions are handled
17:01:31 [timeless]
... i think there are bugs open
17:01:39 [timeless]
chaals: yeah, action on us to chase vincent
17:01:47 [timeless]
... progress we have scheduled
17:01:50 [timeless]
... and push
17:02:00 [timeless]
chaals: Quota Management, whose fault is that?
17:02:00 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow ask Vincent about next step for PointerLock (e.g. what needs to be done to go LC)
17:02:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-678 - Ask Vincent about next step for PointerLock (e.g. what needs to be done to go LC) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:02:33 [timeless]
eric: as far as i know, Kinuko isn't going to be here
17:02:41 [timeless]
... no status
17:02:44 [timeless]
chaals: action us to chase that
17:02:49 [timeless]
... Selectors API
17:02:53 [timeless]
... it's a REC, we're done
17:02:57 [timeless]
... *woohoo*
17:03:03 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow ask Kinuko about status and plans for Quota Mangement API
17:03:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-679 - Ask Kinuko about status and plans for Quota Mangement API [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:03:22 [timeless]
... Selectors API Level 2?
17:03:29 [timeless]
Travis: i'd love to hear an implementation report
17:03:37 [timeless]
... i know IE has pieces of it - matchesSelector()
17:03:44 [timeless]
[ Silence ]
17:03:46 [timeless]
Travis: ok
17:03:56 [timeless]
ArtB: we can take an action to ask lachy
17:04:01 [richt]
richt has joined #webapps
17:04:04 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow ask Lachlan if he has some impl data re Selectors API v2
17:04:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-680 - Ask Lachlan if he has some impl data re Selectors API v2 [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:04:07 [timeless]
s/scribenick: timeless//
17:04:10 [timeless]
s/scribe: Josh_Soref//
17:04:22 [timeless]
17:04:24 [timeless]
17:04:27 [timeless]
17:04:35 [timeless]
MikeSmith: Web Components has arrived
17:04:41 [timeless]
present+ dglazkov
17:04:44 [timeless]
present+ tantek
17:04:52 [timeless]
tantek: and a couple of github observers
17:05:01 [timeless]
mat_tod: mat tod
17:05:13 [timeless]
corry_johnson: corry johson [Github]
17:05:18 [timeless]
s/tod/tod [Github]
17:05:20 [timeless]
17:05:27 [timeless]
... entered CR last december
17:05:28 [jsbell]
jsbell has joined #webapps
17:05:38 [timeless]
... tina has run inerop
17:05:42 [timeless]
... once bugs are fixed
17:05:49 [timeless]
... that spec should be able to do interop testing for CR
17:05:55 [timeless]
17:06:08 [timeless]
... tina has a column for IE
17:06:13 [timeless]
... it appears, that it's not implemented?
17:06:17 [timeless]
... should we remove that column?
17:06:30 [timeless]
adrianba: we don't have anything to say about any plans
17:06:34 [timeless]
... you should remove the column
17:06:38 [timeless]
ArtB: ok, i'll tell tina
17:06:42 [timeless]
... anything else on SSE?
17:06:52 [timeless]
... Shadow DOM, dglazkov will take mic later
17:06:58 [timeless]
... Screen Orientation, we spoke earlier
17:07:02 [timeless]
... - mounir isn't here
17:07:27 [timeless]
chaals: i was especting tobie to point out
17:07:35 [timeless]
... there's functionality that's important to tablet/game developers
17:07:43 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow ask Tina to remove the IE column from the SSE implementation report
17:07:43 [timeless]
... about specifying/holding that isn't in spec
17:07:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-681 - Ask Tina to remove the IE column from the SSE implementation report [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:07:51 [timeless]
israelh: one question, related to fullscreen
17:07:56 [timeless]
... what are expectations around browser?
17:08:04 [timeless]
... should browser be in full screen at that point?
17:08:10 [timeless]
... or should it be something that
17:08:22 [timeless]
... maybe it's... when you go fullscreen
17:08:32 [timeless]
chaals: my understanding is that the browser isn't expected to fullscreen itself
17:08:39 [timeless]
... the thing you fullscreen goes fullscreen
17:08:50 [timeless]
... it's unclear what happens if you fullscreen something in a fullscreened thing
17:08:56 [timeless]
israelh: part of it is
17:09:00 [timeless]
... there's a jarring experience
17:09:06 [timeless]
... when the browser is taking a portion of the screen
17:09:11 [timeless]
... and you navigate to a web page
17:09:17 [timeless]
... and it forces the screen orientation to switch
17:09:23 [timeless]
... in a tablet, everything is flipped arond
17:09:26 [timeless]
17:09:33 [timeless]
... is there a ratio when this would kick in
17:09:41 [timeless]
... it's very different than just happened to navigate to the page
17:09:52 [timeless]
... frame around it happens to be mostly fullscreen
17:09:53 [tantek_]
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17:09:59 [timeless]
... and a page that requests to go full screen
17:10:07 [timeless]
... like input
17:10:16 [timeless]
chaals: don't see any reason why you'd put that into
17:10:19 [timeless]
... that you'd count a ratio
17:10:30 [timeless]
... authors can create nice experiences or crazy jarry
17:10:40 [timeless]
... useful to do what they want to do
17:10:49 [timeless]
... you'll get horrendous experiences
17:10:54 [timeless]
... that seems to be a minimal
17:11:00 [timeless]
... thing we don't want to specify
17:11:08 [timeless]
... and b lets people do what they want
17:11:13 [timeless]
israelh: more of a potential interop
17:11:17 [timeless]
... would be great to say
17:11:23 [timeless]
... we agree it doesn't really matter
17:11:30 [timeless]
... doesn't matter on size of screen
17:11:36 [timeless]
... maybe there's a suggestion, as a note
17:11:43 [timeless]
... for certain sizes
17:11:49 [timeless]
tantek_: key thing is
17:11:58 [timeless]
... to capture there might be an issue between interaction of these two apis
17:12:04 [timeless]
... i'd invite people to submit user scenario
17:12:11 [timeless]
... where user goes through some number of steps
17:12:19 [timeless]
... altering orientation / entering fullscreen
17:12:22 [timeless]
... and gets confused
17:12:32 [timeless]
... if that happens, we can document that
17:12:35 [garykac]
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17:12:38 [timeless]
... as informative advice for apps to avoid
17:12:54 [timeless]
... sound reasonable?
17:12:56 [timeless]
israelh: yes
17:13:09 [timeless]
chaals: not expected to be finished this week
17:13:17 [timeless]
... anyone have update on testing/implementation status?
17:13:20 [timeless]
chaals: Streams API
17:13:35 [timeless]
... mounir?
17:13:41 [timeless]
MikeSmith: what happened to other guy?
17:13:50 [timeless]
ArtB: Feras is Streams
17:14:07 [timeless]
adrianba: i understand there's a discussion of Streams on the list
17:14:12 [timeless]
... i need to have a look at that
17:14:18 [timeless]
... we're using the Stream API in MSE
17:14:29 [timeless]
... i understand there was some discussion of it in WebCrypto earlier this week
17:14:30 [timeless]
israelh: yes
17:14:35 [timeless]
adrianba: we've implemented this
17:14:43 [timeless]
... it's possible there could be more discussion in the File discussion
17:14:52 [timeless]
ArtB: any other implementations of Streams API?
17:14:57 [timeless]
MikeSmith: google's working on one
17:15:09 [timeless]
... or, i have some reason to believe they may be working on one
17:15:18 [timeless]
... perhaps someone who works for Google could comment?
17:15:27 [timeless]
darobin: i think fake_alex_russel
17:15:45 [timeless]
17:15:50 [timeless]
chaals: URL will be in Admin
17:15:58 [timeless]
... Manifest format, we have w/ AppCache
17:16:00 [hober]
17:16:08 [timeless]
... Web Components - give dglazkov
17:16:18 [timeless]
... WebIDL - we have scheduled
17:16:21 [timeless]
... Web Intents?
17:16:43 [timeless]
bryan: just wondering if those involved would be present
17:16:47 [timeless]
... to have an update
17:16:56 [timeless]
... on status / convergence of Intents/Activities
17:17:02 [timeless]
ArtB: DAP was what was driving this
17:17:09 [timeless]
... my understanding is it isn't active
17:17:20 [mounir]
sicking might have updates for you guys
17:17:23 [timeless]
chaals: does Firefox OS have any skin in this game
17:17:26 [shepazu]
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17:17:31 [timeless]
sicking: we had meetings w/ Google on Intents/Activities
17:17:35 [timeless]
... and sent a report to the list
17:17:40 [timeless]
... nothing has happened since
17:17:55 [timeless]
... we need to experiment with implementations to figure out what experiences are good
17:18:00 [timeless]
... and then figure out apis to do that
17:18:05 [timeless]
... we can't do apis until we figure out experiences
17:18:17 [timeless]
bryan: we have at least Beta/Aurora of activities?
17:18:30 [timeless]
sicking: we have soon to be shipping implementations of Activities in a very narrow scenario
17:18:35 [timeless]
... only on mobile-small screen
17:18:40 [timeless]
... only for Apps
17:18:45 [timeless]
... to be Activity Handlers
17:18:49 [timeless]
... it doesn't work on desktop
17:18:57 [timeless]
... it doesn't allow pages to be handlers
17:19:07 [timeless]
... we need to solve those issues
17:19:11 [timeless]
chaals: why doesn't?
17:19:18 [timeless]
sicking: UX issues are different
17:19:25 [timeless]
... on mobile you only have one app running at a time
17:19:32 [timeless]
... on desktop you have multiple displayed apps
17:19:36 [timeless]
chaals: you turned it off?
17:19:45 [timeless]
sicking: we could do the existing behavior, but it would be bad
17:19:53 [timeless]
bryan: to move that forward?
17:19:59 [timeless]
... it's a joint TF of DAP/WebApps
17:20:09 [timeless]
... it'd be great to get other eyes around those user interface issues
17:20:18 [timeless]
... could we have those issues on a wiki?
17:20:26 [timeless]
... something to understand what that UX is and provide input
17:20:32 [timeless]
... i understood it as an area
17:20:41 [timeless]
... that would involve Protocol / Content Handler capabilities?
17:20:45 [timeless]
sicking: too many unknowns
17:21:03 [timeless]
ArtB: my assumption is that if it's important to someone, they'll put resources to drive it forward
17:21:06 [timeless]
chaals: except DOM4
17:21:10 [timeless]
ArtB: Web Messaging
17:21:18 [timeless]
... i think we have agreement on a set of tests
17:21:34 [timeless]
... Alex said he'd run interop testing on IE + Opera
17:21:40 [timeless]
krisk: Kris K, Microsoft
17:21:53 [timeless]
... from our private testing, we know two browsers pass each test across the board
17:22:01 [timeless]
... should discuss how we should submit them
17:22:06 [timeless]
... we should be able to move to REC
17:22:14 [timeless]
... if browser vendors could click the links
17:22:22 [timeless]
ArtB: you're talking about all submitted tests?
17:22:26 [timeless]
krisk: all in Mercurial Approved
17:22:38 [timeless]
... there's the move from Mercurial to Github
17:22:43 [timeless]
chaals: ready to declare victory
17:22:51 [timeless]
ArtB: would be nice to get a WebKit status
17:22:57 [timeless]
... anyone want to run the tests?
17:23:01 [timeless]
chaals: I've got a webkit browser
17:23:14 [timeless]
ArtB: anyone i could get from Mozilla to run through the tests?
17:23:17 [timeless]
sicking: probably
17:23:21 [timeless]
... i don't know
17:23:25 [timeless]
ArtB: i'll talk to smaug
17:23:27 [timeless]
... that's great
17:23:34 [timeless]
... so we could move to PR real soon
17:23:36 [timeless]
krisk: correct
17:23:39 [timeless]
ArtB: Web Sockets
17:23:41 [timeless]
... similar
17:23:49 [timeless]
... we have agreed on a set of tests from Opera+Microsoft
17:23:51 [timeless]
... krisk ?
17:24:00 [timeless]
krisk: Ms2ger also submitted tests
17:24:06 [timeless]
... we have a lot of tests now, >500 total
17:24:14 [timeless]
... bad news, we have 4 tests that only pass in one browser
17:24:15 [timeless]
... bummer
17:24:26 [timeless]
... handful of tests that i believe are just broken
17:24:30 [timeless]
... either fix or remove
17:24:35 [timeless]
... that's where it's at
17:24:50 [timeless]
krisk: we should wait until tomorrow
17:24:57 [timeless]
ArtB: Web Storage?
17:24:58 [timeless]
... PR
17:25:04 [timeless]
... blocking REC is normative reference issues
17:25:07 [timeless]
ArtB: Workers
17:25:13 [timeless]
... i would have said we had an approved test suite
17:25:18 [timeless]
... and then simon said wait wait
17:25:21 [timeless]
... he's adding tests
17:25:25 [timeless]
... he feels test suite isn't 100%
17:25:39 [timeless]
... i assume he'll add those tests in several weeks
17:25:42 [timeless]
... testing in May/June?
17:25:49 [jeffh]
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17:26:02 [timeless]
krisk: simon last fall agreed to take on test suite
17:26:07 [timeless]
... and he added shared workers tests
17:26:12 [timeless]
... i think there's more work to do
17:26:28 [timeless]
ArtB: shared workers wasn't broadly implemented last fall?
17:26:35 [timeless]
Travis: i think there are at least two implementations
17:26:44 [timeless]
ArtB: i have an action to push simon to complete his contributions
17:26:48 [timeless]
chaals: XHR is scheduled
17:27:00 [timeless]
[ Break ]
17:27:42 [timeless]
garykac: UI events aren't on PubStatus
17:27:52 [timeless]
ArtB: Pointer Events has a dependency on UI Events
17:28:00 [timeless]
... i meant to ask about getting a FPWD
17:28:08 [timeless]
... are we ready to publish that?
17:28:12 [timeless]
garykac: we should talk about that today
17:28:13 [dgrogan_cloud]
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17:28:17 [timeless]
Travis: i'll add it to pubstatus
17:28:32 [timeless]
garykac: for a number of months, it's in a good state
17:28:39 [timeless]
... i'm concerned about keyboard events
17:28:45 [timeless]
... there's an event that specifies locale
17:28:50 [timeless]
s//[ Break ]/
17:28:54 [timeless]
ArtB: is there a bugzilla component?
17:28:57 [timeless]
... i'll check that
17:29:03 [timeless]
... should we start a CfC?
17:29:06 [timeless]
garykac: sounds good
17:29:26 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow start a CfC for FPWD of UI Events (and make sure it has a Bugzilla component)
17:29:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-682 - Start a CfC for FPWD of UI Events (and make sure it has a Bugzilla component) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:29:36 [timeless]
chaals: anything else we've forgotten?
17:29:43 [timeless]
ArtB: next up is AppCache/App Manifest
17:29:45 [timeless]
[ Break ]
17:29:57 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:29:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
17:30:04 [jeff]
Present+ Jeff
17:30:09 [Travis]
Present+ Travis
17:30:16 [plh]
Presen+ plh
17:30:17 [lyle]
present+ Lyle
17:30:27 [jeff]
present+ plh
17:30:27 [adrianba]
present+ krisk
17:30:30 [dgrogan_cloud]
present+ David_Grogan
17:30:32 [timeless]
present+ Daniel_Austin
17:31:00 [dgrogan_cloud]
present+ Alec_Flett
17:31:01 [timeless]
s/corry_johnson: corry johson/Corey_Johnson: Corey_Johnson/
17:31:11 [ArtB]
Present+ Corey_Johnson(GitHub), Matt_Todd(GitHub)
17:31:28 [timeless]
s/mat_tod: mat tod/Matt_Todd: Matt Todd/
17:31:37 [jsbell]
present+ Joshua_Bell
17:31:39 [timeless]
s/Corey_Johnson: Corey_Johnson/Corey_Johnson: Corey Johnson/
17:31:43 [lyle]
Present+ Lyle_Troxell(4D)
17:43:44 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
17:45:28 [EricU]
EricU has joined #webapps
17:46:38 [virginie_]
virginie_ has joined #webapps
17:47:53 [krisk]
krisk has joined #webapps
17:48:44 [lyle]
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17:50:15 [timeless]
topic: App Manifest
17:50:21 [timeless]
sicking: as you may or may not know
17:50:27 [timeless]
... there's a SysApps WG in W3C
17:50:30 [lyle]
lyle has joined #webapps
17:50:32 [timeless]
... totally different from WebApps
17:50:44 [timeless]
... one of the things we're working on is creating an App Platform similar to Widgets
17:50:46 [timeless]
... same UCs
17:50:51 [timeless]
... but different set of solutions
17:51:09 [timeless]
... something we'd like is get input from this WG
17:51:15 [timeless]
... we'd like to make something based on the web
17:51:21 [timeless]
... not just use the same JS APIs
17:51:24 [timeless]
... and Markup language
17:51:31 [timeless]
... but also have the same Design principles
17:51:40 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow work with Alex and Chaals re interop data for Web Messaging
17:51:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-683 - Work with Alex and Chaals re interop data for Web Messaging [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:51:41 [timeless]
... the companies in SysApps are from a different background
17:51:47 [timeless]
... we'd like to
17:51:50 [timeless]
... um, eh
17:51:57 [timeless]
... we have a Manifest specification
17:52:00 [JonathanJ]
17:52:01 [timeless]
... and a Runtime specification
17:52:12 [JonathanJ]
17:52:25 [timeless]
... the latest EDs of the specs
17:52:34 [timeless]
... the specs are living in Github and we use Github to track issues
17:52:38 [timeless]
... we're proposing
17:52:43 [timeless]
... to create a joint deliverable w/ this WG
17:52:49 [timeless]
... at the very least for the Manifest specification
17:53:02 [timeless]
... we think there are a lot of uses for Manifest specification
17:53:06 [timeless]
... outside of the SysApps
17:53:12 [timeless]
... it solves the same UCs
17:53:18 [timeless]
... similar to what apple's meta tags
17:53:25 [timeless]
... if the User bookmarks this to the homescreen
17:53:34 [timeless]
... the name of the icon, the icon
17:53:39 [timeless]
... it's similar to AppCache
17:53:46 [timeless]
... things to startup
17:54:00 [timeless]
... this Manifest ties together existing pieces
17:54:09 [timeless]
... there's app specific things (permissions)
17:54:29 [timeless]
... we could remove that, and move them into other specifications
17:54:38 [timeless]
... we'd like to standardize this so we could have `bookmark to homepage`
17:54:43 [timeless]
... and so you could build other experiences
17:54:53 [timeless]
... Chrome has Miniature tabs
17:54:58 [timeless]
... FirefoxOS has app tabs
17:55:08 [timeless]
... when the user says `make this into an app tab`, you could grab info from the manifest
17:55:14 [timeless]
... use icons and appcache info from the manifest
17:55:21 [timeless]
... there's a lot that isn't app specific
17:55:35 [timeless]
... want to create richer experience for web sites
17:55:41 [hober]
17:55:44 [timeless]
... without having to make an app
17:55:44 [hober]
17:55:48 [tantek_]
Aside: Firefox's mini tabs are called "Pinned Tabs":
17:55:49 [timeless]
... we believe this is already chartered
17:55:53 [chaals]
17:55:55 [timeless]
... based on work already done by widgets
17:56:04 [timeless]
... this is the feature set we're trying to solve
17:56:11 [timeless]
... this integrates nicely w/ AppCache
17:56:14 [timeless]
17:56:16 [timeless]
ack hober
17:56:23 [timeless]
hober: i wanted to quickly +1 the UCs
17:56:26 [timeless]
... for a standard manifest format
17:56:35 [timeless]
... extending beyond the non web sandbox of sysapps
17:56:41 [tantek_]
"Pinned Tabs allow you to always keep your favorite web apps like Facebook, Gmail and Twitter open and just a click away." - from cited URL.
17:56:43 [timeless]
... and not all browsers are participating there
17:56:46 [timeless]
ack chaals
17:56:55 [timeless]
chaals: i believe this is chartered, because i wrote this into the charter
17:56:59 [timeless]
... back when we said yeah
17:57:01 [timeless]
... and i said no
17:57:05 [timeless]
17:57:07 [timeless]
... so welcome back
17:57:12 [timeless]
sicking: we always wanted to do this
17:58:23 [timeless]
ArtB: chaals is right that
17:58:33 [timeless]
... the manifest draft on the screen is within scope
17:58:41 [timeless]
... but it is not identified as a joint deliverable with sysapps
17:58:46 [timeless]
... it makes sense to collaborate
17:58:50 [JonathanJ]
17:58:55 [timeless]
... maybe Eve / plh could give feedback
17:59:11 [plh]
17:59:11 [timeless]
... can we discuss on public-webapps w/o explicitly updating the charter?
17:59:13 [davidb]
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17:59:16 [timeless]
... we know in the past
17:59:30 [timeless]
... adding new deliverables to WebApps has raised issues for members because of the IP commitment
17:59:34 [timeless]
... in this case, i think it's ok
17:59:39 [timeless]
... because it looks like what we have
17:59:44 [timeless]
... if we go down this path, we'd need a CfC
17:59:51 [timeless]
... so far, i've heard hober say it's reasonable
17:59:56 [timeless]
... we haven't heard anyone else
17:59:59 [timeless]
... anyone else
18:00:08 [timeless]
chaals: Yandex would like to make it a joint deliverable
18:00:18 [timeless]
bryan: we'd support it being a joint deliverable
18:00:27 [timeless]
... the needs of web apps and installable are overlapped
18:00:35 [timeless]
ArtB: seeing no other feedback
18:00:39 [timeless]
... maybe, we'll craft a CfC
18:00:44 [timeless]
... use current draft as our guide
18:00:49 [timeless]
... sicking asked about permissions
18:00:54 [lyle]
lyle: we'd support it being a joint deliverable (4D)
18:00:58 [chaals]
ACTION: chaals to make a CfC for joint work with sysapps on webapp manifests
18:00:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-684 - Make a CfC for joint work with sysapps on webapp manifests [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-02].
18:01:00 [timeless]
... we could use the CfC to gauge whether that's too far
18:01:07 [timeless]
plh: why joint deliverable?
18:01:11 [timeless]
... maybe darobin or MikeSmith could
18:01:15 [JF]
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18:01:21 [timeless]
ArtB: this isn't AppCache
18:01:33 [timeless]
18:01:46 [sicking]
18:01:49 [JF]
JF has left #webapps
18:01:52 [timeless]
MikeSmith: as someone who has to deal w/ administrative hassle of joint deliverables
18:01:56 [timeless]
... please don't make me do it
18:02:00 [timeless]
... i don't see it getting us more IP
18:02:07 [timeless]
chaals: other alternative is to move the spec into this group
18:02:12 [timeless]
... it's on our list of deliverables
18:02:13 [arun]
arun has joined #webapps
18:02:19 [timeless]
sicking: i'm fine w/ moving it from SysApps to this group
18:02:34 [timeless]
... in SysApps, we'd have to define extensions, but we'd have to do that anyway
18:02:44 [timeless]
... it's a question we haven't raised in the SysApps WG, but we'd have to raise it
18:02:46 [chaals]
ack si
18:02:50 [timeless]
... it's an option
18:03:08 [timeless]
ArtB: so that's a CfC to make WebApps sole owner?
18:03:09 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
18:03:11 [timeless]
chaals: we don't need a CfC
18:03:20 [timeless]
... imagine a chair of SysApps was around
18:03:25 [timeless]
... how do you feel about the idea?
18:03:31 [timeless]
wonsuk: i think that in case of SysApps WG
18:03:42 [timeless]
... we already made a decision to propose a TF w/ WebApps
18:03:49 [Jin_Peng]
Jin_Peng has joined #webapps
18:03:51 [timeless]
... in aspect of SysApps WG there are no objection
18:03:57 [timeless]
... not sure how can we make a TF
18:04:03 [timeless]
... do we need to make a different mailing list?
18:04:05 [timeless]
... and wiki page
18:04:08 [timeless]
chaals: this is the thing
18:04:16 [timeless]
... if we make a joint TF, there's a lot of admin to do
18:04:25 [timeless]
... the suggestion is to JUST do Manifest in WebApps
18:04:32 [timeless]
... and SysApps says we've given it away
18:04:46 [timeless]
... but do you think that would be something the SysApps group might be happy with?
18:04:49 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
18:04:49 [timeless]
wonsuk: i think so
18:04:59 [timeless]
ArtB: anyone have any issues with that?
18:05:00 [timeless]
[ None ]
18:05:09 [timeless]
ArtB: working assumption is WebApps will work on this
18:05:14 [timeless]
... is marcosc in WebApps?
18:05:21 [timeless]
Yves: yes
18:05:36 [timeless]
sicking: a more controversial proposal
18:05:43 [timeless]
... the same thing, but for runtime spec
18:05:46 [timeless]
... for same reasons
18:05:51 [timeless]
... we have the runtime spec
18:05:58 [timeless]
... which defines concept of apps, small api for interacting
18:06:06 [timeless]
... i don't think we'd want to move that to WebApps
18:06:09 [hober]
18:06:13 [timeless]
... i think it would be interesting to do as a joint Deliverable
18:06:19 [timeless]
... i can imagine people don't like that
18:06:23 [timeless]
chaals: you'd have to talk to MikeSmith
18:06:26 [timeless]
18:06:30 [timeless]
ack hober
18:06:33 [timeless]
hober: i'd rather not do that
18:06:59 [timeless]
ArtB: i'd expect there'd be other objections from Members
18:07:09 [timeless]
sicking: it seems to me that it falls under the same widget charter
18:07:11 [timeless]
... but
18:07:15 [timeless]
... i understand
18:07:22 [timeless]
... this is why i brought it up separately and after
18:07:27 [timeless]
... but i'd still like more webby input
18:07:35 [timeless]
chaals: so you're recruiting people to do sysapps
18:07:37 [timeless]
... work
18:07:42 [timeless]
... and then dropping the actual work
18:07:48 [timeless]
sicking: you say that, as if it's a bad thing
18:07:50 [timeless]
[ laughter ]
18:07:54 [abraud]
present+ Arnaud_Braud
18:08:00 [timeless]
chaals: i think the current charter would permit it
18:08:06 [timeless]
... if you just do it, you might surface objections
18:08:12 [timeless]
... the current charter doesn't say we'll do joint work
18:08:29 [timeless]
... if we try to do that, you'll provide a nice opportunity to give their opinion on the distribution of resources
18:08:33 [timeless]
sicking: i'll drop the subject
18:08:37 [timeless]
Topic: AppCache
18:08:49 [timeless]
sicking: i sent a proposal to webapps@
18:09:00 [timeless]
... about a very different AppCache than what we currently have
18:09:05 [timeless]
... based on discussion over years
18:09:12 [ArtB] -> Jonas' AppCache proposal
18:09:23 [timeless]
... i received input, not a lot, but more than i could keep up w/
18:09:27 [timeless]
... two questions
18:09:29 [timeless]
18:09:33 [timeless]
s/http/-> http/
18:09:40 [timeless]
... 1. is this group still interested in this?
18:09:48 [timeless]
... 2. which implementations would be interested in doing this?
18:09:55 [timeless]
... which implementations want to do an updated appcache
18:10:02 [timeless]
... which would be interested
18:10:19 [timeless]
... there's also separate work in github on a NavigationController, which is a different way of solving the problem
18:10:27 [timeless]
... my intent was to have both, with an interaction between the two
18:10:32 [timeless]
... the second question is
18:10:40 [timeless]
... should we have a declarative format at all
18:10:46 [timeless]
... or only a Script based (NavigationControlleR)
18:10:55 [timeless]
... there's work to fix the performance
18:10:57 [timeless]
18:10:57 [chaals]
18:11:04 [lyle]
present+ Lyle_Troxell
18:11:06 [timeless]
... there's some concept of a manifest
18:11:10 [timeless]
... it's a big question
18:11:22 [timeless]
... A. who's interested in working on something like the New AppCache?
18:11:35 [timeless]
... B. if we do new AppCache, entirely Script based, or something declarative?
18:11:37 [timeless]
ack chaals
18:11:40 [timeless]
chaals: we want to do something
18:11:47 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:11:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
18:11:51 [timeless]
... the stuff we're pushing to implement is likely to be script based
18:11:58 [timeless]
... but it seems like it'd be nice to have a declarative backing
18:12:05 [timeless]
... a lot of UCs aren't amazingly complicated
18:12:13 [timeless]
... making a declarative approach available makes it easier
18:12:28 [timeless]
israelh: i think a declarative approach should continue to be supported
18:12:37 [timeless]
... if only for backwards compat w/ simple sites
18:12:42 [timeless]
... a scripting approach is needed
18:12:50 [timeless]
... the ability to allow those interact
18:12:55 [timeless]
... it's just about how to define them
18:13:13 [timeless]
sicking: MS's input on this is sort of needed
18:13:23 [timeless]
... the way the script based thing is heading, it doesn't have a declarative part at all
18:13:35 [timeless]
... if it's something that's important to you guys, i'd urge you to voice that opinion
18:13:43 [timeless]
... i believe declarative is important
18:14:00 [timeless]
... i have a concern that declarative solves so few UCs that it isn't useful
18:14:16 [timeless]
israelh: there are things in the issues outlined
18:14:27 [timeless]
... that we have resolved w/ proprietary tags
18:14:34 [timeless]
... that were requested by internal properties
18:14:38 [timeless]
... like caching master entry
18:14:50 [timeless]
... you create a relationship, but don't cache master entry
18:14:55 [adrianba]
18:14:56 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
18:15:00 [timeless]
... we already have a large property that actually uses this
18:15:06 [timeless]
... IndexedDB and AppCache to work offline
18:15:11 [timeless]
... it goes back to what scenarios
18:15:16 [timeless]
... there are scenarios in which this does work
18:15:23 [timeless]
... maybe they aren't as interesting anymore
18:15:28 [timeless]
... but they're existing apps
18:15:34 [timeless]
... i keep hearing about wild UCs
18:15:45 [timeless]
... we need to be specific about what UCs aren't solved by this
18:15:49 [timeless]
... that are solved by something else
18:15:55 [chaals]
ack as
18:15:57 [timeless]
adrianba: we've talked for a while about the issues
18:16:00 [chaals]
ack adr
18:16:08 [timeless]
... can we evolve our way to a solution
18:16:12 [timeless]
... or do we do something new?
18:16:16 [timeless]
... i think doing something new is
18:16:25 [timeless]
... the approach that sicking is suggesting
18:16:31 [timeless]
... and something we should embrace
18:16:35 [timeless]
... the one question i had was
18:16:47 [timeless]
... whether we should look at something entirely separate from what's there currently
18:16:57 [timeless]
... it wasn't clear whether the proposal would ignore the manifest attribute
18:17:09 [timeless]
... that was the old approach, and we're doing something separate
18:17:19 [timeless]
... i was thinking we'd have similar entrypoints
18:17:24 [timeless]
... but the format and rules would be different
18:17:31 [timeless]
... discuss pros/cons of that
18:17:44 [timeless]
sicking: my vision w/ this proposal
18:17:59 [timeless]
... was to enable supporting back compat
18:18:06 [timeless]
... enable web sites to support the old format
18:18:14 [timeless]
... and take advantage of browsers supporting the new format
18:18:25 [timeless]
... invent a new attribute that links to the new manifest
18:18:33 [timeless]
... apps could list both attributes
18:18:38 [timeless]
... or only new or only old
18:18:46 [timeless]
sicking: it is definitely a
18:18:58 [timeless]
... replacement, but enabling websites/implementations to have a transition
18:19:03 [adrianba]
18:19:10 [timeless]
... and to keep supporting the old stuff for as long as useful
18:19:22 [timeless]
chaals: it's said that AppCache perfectly supports its UCs
18:19:26 [timeless]
... "and that's the problem"
18:19:29 [israelh]
18:19:33 [timeless]
... it's important to lay out the UCs that we're trying to deal w/
18:19:37 [timeless]
... we set out UCs
18:19:42 [timeless]
... some of this isn't pure offline stuff
18:19:48 [timeless]
... it's optimization of the network
18:19:55 [timeless]
... most of the network in Russia is crappy
18:20:03 [timeless]
... that's important to work with
18:20:08 [timeless]
... here are UCs we'd like to enable
18:20:17 [timeless]
... we've all got ideas in our head
18:20:19 [timeless]
q+ sicking
18:20:39 [timeless]
sicking: paul backus, of zynga started a thread
18:20:44 [timeless]
... i got feedback from others
18:20:49 [timeless]
... it'd be useful to list UCs
18:20:54 [timeless]
... and how this proposal solves the UCs
18:20:59 [timeless]
... and include sample manifests
18:21:06 [timeless]
... i'm planning on writing that up
18:21:09 [timeless]
... which hopefully will help
18:21:19 [timeless]
... i still think we have the large question of
18:21:24 [timeless]
... should we do this declarative solution
18:21:30 [timeless]
... script base solves everything
18:21:35 [timeless]
... it may have perf issues
18:21:39 [timeless]
... but they're probably solvable
18:21:44 [timeless]
... we should spend time looking at UCs
18:21:48 [timeless]
... and see how it matches them
18:21:49 [timeless]
ack adrianba
18:21:56 [timeless]
adrianba: 3 points
18:22:06 [timeless]
... 1. we talked about this a bunch
18:22:17 [timeless]
... we've all experienced problems w/ the original appcache proposal
18:22:19 [timeless]
... we want to fix it
18:22:22 [timeless]
... this is a great starting point
18:22:27 [timeless]
... we should write it more formally
18:22:31 [timeless]
... we'd be happy to help w/ that
18:22:41 [timeless]
... part of that should be gathering together those UCs
18:22:52 [timeless]
... it's a great suggestion to take UCs and show examples of how to satisfy
18:22:58 [timeless]
... gathering into a document would be great
18:23:12 [timeless]
... 2. probably some charter work to do to make it possible
18:23:17 [timeless]
... we started that work at TPAC
18:23:20 [timeless]
... given this is
18:23:26 [timeless]
... different enough from the current AppCache
18:23:40 [timeless]
... and we aren't talking about modifying AppCache
18:23:47 [timeless]
... i'm less concerned about talking w/ HTML WG
18:24:03 [timeless]
... 3. we made some substantial engineering investments in supporting the original appcache
18:24:13 [timeless]
... manage caches, keep those files, know when to purge them
18:24:19 [timeless]
... we don't want to do that again
18:24:25 [timeless]
... we'd like to see how much we can make work w/ this
18:24:32 [timeless]
... that might impose constraints
18:24:34 [timeless]
ack israelh
18:24:36 [timeless]
israelh: in the past
18:24:44 [timeless]
... when we tried to make progress w/ the existing manifest
18:24:50 [timeless]
... there was controversy about UCs
18:24:54 [timeless]
... it was offline only
18:24:57 [timeless]
... being open
18:25:07 [timeless]
... about transactional boundaries
18:25:11 [timeless]
... are issues we'll have to figure out
18:25:17 [timeless]
... to make it map to the engine we have now
18:25:34 [timeless]
chaals: there's a nice seat next to arun
18:25:42 [timeless]
sicking: i have this naive hope
18:25:53 [timeless]
... it sounds one of the things the existing AppCache did
18:25:57 [timeless]
... the transactional approach
18:26:02 [timeless]
... to go from one to another
18:26:08 [timeless]
... it's hard to say at this stage
18:26:14 [timeless]
... at mozilla, we don't have that problem
18:26:19 [timeless]
... our existing impl is so crappy
18:26:25 [timeless]
... that we have to rewrite it anyway
18:26:26 [timeless]
[ laughter ]
18:26:28 [dgrogan_cloud]
18:26:32 [timeless]
sicking: the way it goes away, we're happy
18:26:36 [timeless]
... it's not entirely by accident
18:26:46 [timeless]
... the intent is that we can use the same manifest i was talking about before
18:26:55 [timeless]
... they use the same linking mechanism
18:27:03 [timeless]
... icon:, name:, cache:
18:27:11 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
18:27:13 [timeless]
... that would work much better than the current Manifest specification
18:27:18 [timeless]
... that links to separate items
18:27:35 [timeless]
chaals: i put a note to myself to talk about this for Chartering discussion
18:27:42 [timeless]
... when you say help
18:27:48 [timeless]
... you were going to offer an editor
18:27:59 [timeless]
adrianba: ...
18:28:15 [timeless]
ArtB: i heard a need for UCs
18:28:26 [timeless]
... sicking, does that response address UCs?
18:28:29 [timeless]
... do we need volunteers?
18:28:32 [timeless]
sicking: there's work to be done
18:28:36 [timeless]
... i'll send the UCs we had in mind
18:28:41 [timeless]
... there's more work
18:28:53 [timeless]
... this is the main case where the existing AppCache fell down
18:29:19 [timeless]
... i think this is the way to prove/disprove that the declarative proposal will work
18:29:25 [timeless]
ArtB: we could ask paul to contribute
18:29:31 [timeless]
... anyone else willing to contribute UCs?
18:29:32 [timeless]
adrianba: yes
18:29:41 [timeless]
ArtB: chaals, i saw you raise your hand
18:30:03 [timeless]
sicking: i can't be the editor
18:30:25 [timeless]
ArtB: nice to know we have interest in doing things
18:30:38 [timeless]
... we can ask for leads, or helpers
18:30:45 [timeless]
chaals: we could perhaps get a helper
18:30:48 [timeless]
... not sure about a lead
18:30:52 [timeless]
... the people i'm thinking of
18:30:52 [marcosc]
zakim, passcode?
18:30:52 [Zakim]
the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, marcosc
18:31:02 [timeless]
adrianba: i don't think we're in a position to make a commitment
18:31:05 [timeless]
... want to help
18:31:10 [timeless]
... w/ formal writing down of UCs
18:31:16 [timeless]
.... to make sure we capture those
18:31:21 [timeless]
... we have some of that written down
18:31:24 [chaals]
q+ marcos to volunteer?
18:31:28 [timeless]
... transcribing it isn't much extra work
18:31:37 [Zakim]
18:31:43 [timeless]
... getting things from MS about what worked/failed
18:31:46 [timeless]
... capturing that
18:31:51 [chaals]
zakim, [ipcaller is myVictim
18:31:51 [Zakim]
+myVictim; got it
18:31:54 [timeless]
... we think this is going in the right direction
18:32:01 [marcosc]
zakim, IPcaller is me
18:32:01 [Zakim]
sorry, marcosc, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
18:32:03 [chaals]
zakim, myVictim is Marcos
18:32:03 [Zakim]
+Marcos; got it
18:32:03 [timeless]
ArtB: makes sense
18:32:17 [timeless]
marcosc: hello
18:32:34 [timeless]
ArtB: we have an action that marcosc will be editing appcache?
18:32:36 [timeless]
marcosc: no
18:32:46 [timeless]
[ break ]
18:39:06 [timeless]
Topic: Indexed DB
18:39:45 [timeless]
jsbell: on the agenda was going over open bugs
18:39:47 [timeless]
... and LC tracking
18:39:53 [timeless]
... let's do LC tracking first
18:39:54 [ArtB] -> Indexed DB ED
18:39:56 [timeless]
18:39:57 [jsbell]
18:40:05 [timeless]
s/http:/-> http://
18:40:12 [timeless]
s/https/-> https/
18:40:17 [garykac]
garykac has joined #webapps
18:40:24 [timeless]
s/html/html Disposition of Comments/
18:40:25 [lyle]
lyle has joined #webapps
18:40:28 [timeless]
jsbell: lots of green
18:40:34 [timeless]
... most aren't normative changes
18:40:40 [timeless]
... but we should probably do another LC
18:40:47 [timeless]
chaals: TBD here?
18:40:50 [jeff]
jeff has joined #webapps
18:41:02 [timeless]
eliot: i should probably change TBD to something more appropriate
18:41:10 [timeless]
... that was placeholder text from a table shepazu used
18:41:16 [timeless]
... there's no response from those people
18:41:27 [timeless]
... i could change TBD to NA/blank
18:41:31 [timeless]
chaals: limit of time for response
18:41:35 [ArtB]
ACTION: eliot update IDB LC comment tracking document to replace "TBD" with something more descriptive
18:41:35 [timeless]
... don't wait forever
18:41:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-685 - Update IDB LC comment tracking document to replace "TBD" with something more descriptive [on Eliot Graff - due 2013-05-02].
18:41:39 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:41:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
18:41:42 [timeless]
jsbell: seeing a few nods for going to another LC
18:41:45 [timeless]
chaals: seems reasonable
18:42:11 [timeless]
israelh: one of the questions we have
18:42:15 [timeless]
... it seems a lot of the comments we made
18:42:23 [timeless]
... have been integrated into implementations
18:42:24 [timeless]
q+ chaals
18:42:29 [timeless]
... i haven't heard of new implementations
18:42:38 [timeless]
... i haven't heard of things that will invalidate
18:42:44 [timeless]
... are things discussed in email
18:42:49 [timeless]
... that we haven't brought back to the spec
18:42:54 [timeless]
... i'm wondering about the Process
18:43:02 [timeless]
... does moving forward/going back to LC?
18:43:06 [timeless]
ack sic
18:43:16 [timeless]
sicking: i'm fine w/ not going back to LC
18:43:22 [marcosc]
Zakim: ack me
18:43:27 [timeless]
... not terribly knowledgeable about formalism
18:43:39 [timeless]
ack chaals
18:43:43 [timeless]
chaals: going back to LC
18:43:50 [timeless]
... it's more of a hygiene thing
18:43:54 [timeless]
... put it up for 3 weeks
18:43:59 [timeless]
... only the changes are fairly open
18:44:10 [timeless]
... it gives you hygiene for Patent Policy
18:44:24 [timeless]
... and it takes 3 weeks for ArtB / myself to organize the next step anyway
18:44:40 [timeless]
lyle: is there any interest in indexedDB including webSql
18:44:48 [timeless]
... a jdbc remote database call
18:44:52 [timeless]
[ laughter ]
18:44:58 [timeless]
israelh: that's why i want this to move forward
18:45:03 [timeless]
... we've gone through a lot of things in the WG
18:45:09 [timeless]
... we've identified things we've chosen not to do in V1
18:45:14 [timeless]
... likely to stir up again in LC
18:45:19 [timeless]
... things we'll have the same answers to
18:45:23 [timeless]
... implementations are really close
18:45:28 [timeless]
... let's keep moving forward
18:45:40 [timeless]
... my inclination is to move forward
18:45:43 [timeless]
... and then get to v2
18:45:48 [timeless]
... for new things
18:46:01 [chaals]
18:46:06 [chaals]
ack ma
18:46:06 [Zakim]
marcos, you wanted to volunteer?
18:46:07 [timeless]
i/gives you/chaals: you probably won't have comments anyway/
18:46:10 [timeless]
ack chaals
18:46:18 [timeless]
chaals: i agree we don't want to open the thing up widely
18:46:23 [timeless]
... the LC is "this is version1"
18:46:33 [timeless]
... we're showing you the spec we're pushing to REC
18:46:41 [timeless]
... if people say "you forgot to boil the ocean"
18:46:46 [timeless]
... the response will be "out of scope"
18:46:52 [timeless]
... we'll make that very clear if we go to LC
18:47:01 [timeless]
... we say "you're not getting websql" or anything else into
18:47:04 [timeless]
18:47:52 [timeless]
ArtB: i have a feeling trying to convince director that there haven't been changes to invalidate review
18:47:56 [timeless]
... +1 a new LC
18:48:10 [timeless]
... concerted effort to get those comments addressed quickly
18:48:17 [timeless]
... don't let it drag on for months
18:48:26 [timeless]
... as a chair, you learn not to allow them to drag on
18:48:33 [timeless]
israelh: scope it, that'd be awesome
18:48:46 [timeless]
... don't allow for repetition of previously presented comments
18:48:52 [timeless]
chaals: absolutely
18:48:54 [timeless]
... resolution
18:48:59 [timeless]
... we'll put up 3 week LC
18:48:59 [sicking]
sicking has joined #webapps
18:49:04 [ArtB] -> IDB Open Bugs
18:49:04 [timeless]
... this is a review of the changes
18:49:10 [timeless]
... we don't take on new work
18:49:12 [timeless]
18:49:16 [timeless]
s/https/-> https/
18:49:22 [timeless]
... we'll do more in v2
18:49:26 [timeless]
... what's your testing story?
18:49:35 [timeless]
sicking: i don't think we have two implementations that implement everything
18:49:38 [timeless]
... IE is lacking Arrays
18:49:41 [marcosc]
18:49:42 [timeless]
... Chrome is lacking Blob
18:49:45 [timeless]
... Firefox impl is perfect
18:49:51 [timeless]
chaals: that's what they said about AppCache
18:50:01 [timeless]
jsbell: no sync api impls
18:50:08 [timeless]
marcosc: i was going to ask about sync api
18:50:08 [smaug]
drop the sync API ?
18:50:12 [timeless]
... will that be dropped in LC?
18:50:20 [timeless]
sicking: there's no way it'll survive
18:50:25 [timeless]
... it's listed as AT-RISK
18:50:31 [timeless]
... maybe we could drop before LC
18:50:37 [timeless]
... we have a mostly working impl
18:50:40 [timeless]
jsbell: +1 to droppiing
18:50:43 [timeless]
18:50:47 [smaug]
+1 dropping
18:50:50 [timeless]
israelh: +1 for dropping
18:50:55 [timeless]
ArtB: what's the plan for the bugs?
18:50:56 [tantek]
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18:51:05 [timeless]
eliot: those 3 bugs were submitted after the official LC period
18:51:14 [timeless]
... not sure how that applies
18:51:17 [timeless]
... one is in DoC
18:51:20 [timeless]
... the other two came later
18:51:29 [timeless]
ArtB: if we publish a new LC, we should consider these
18:51:34 [timeless]
eliot: i'll add to DoC
18:51:40 [timeless]
jsbell: 21801
18:51:48 [timeless]
... i filed as i was making a bug fix to our impl
18:51:52 [timeless]
... i think it's non-controversial
18:51:56 [timeless]
... looking for eyeballs
18:51:56 [Ms2ger]
18:52:02 [timeless]
... 21555
18:52:08 [Ms2ger]
18:52:10 [timeless]
... this came out of discussion on ML/other bug
18:52:16 [timeless]
... to match new features of WebIDL
18:52:21 [timeless]
... try to avoid webIDL `any`
18:52:26 [timeless]
... using webIDL `unions`
18:52:38 [timeless]
... this looks like webIDL doesn't support attribute returning js array
18:52:53 [timeless]
... comments from heycam suggesting webIDL spec additions to address
18:53:00 [timeless]
sicking: i don't think we need to depend on webIDL
18:53:05 [timeless]
... we can use prose
18:53:13 [timeless]
jsbell: yes, we can do that, seeing nodding
18:53:20 [timeless]
jsbell: 17681
18:53:23 [timeless]
... was in DoC
18:53:28 [timeless]
... it's been resolved, reopened, resolved, reopened
18:53:39 [timeless]
... when spec was written, it listed a list of exceptions for arrays w/ tabular format
18:53:44 [timeless]
... the spec wasn't written in new format
18:53:49 [timeless]
... of step-wise
18:53:52 [timeless]
... i've removed the tables
18:54:02 [timeless]
... but the spec doesn't specify order
18:54:09 [timeless]
... and the opera tests showed different behaviors
18:54:21 [timeless]
... sicking and i talked about picking an ordering or picking some implementation
18:54:25 [timeless]
... israelh has an objection
18:54:32 [timeless]
israelh: from our perspective
18:54:38 [timeless]
... we don't see this as adding value to the web developer
18:54:47 [timeless]
... the pattern we see is that they'll catch the exception
18:55:02 [timeless]
... they're not going to look at the details of the exception
18:55:04 [Ms2ger]
Should we replace all exceptions by plain Errors?
18:55:05 [sicking]
18:55:07 [timeless]
... either move forward or not care
18:55:17 [timeless]
... don't see reason to expend resources
18:55:21 [timeless]
... even if the spec had it
18:55:24 [timeless]
ack marcosc
18:55:26 [chaals]
ack ma
18:55:34 [timeless]
ack sicking
18:55:42 [timeless]
sicking: i think israelh addressed my question
18:55:49 [timeless]
... specwise it's easy to give a global order
18:56:01 [timeless]
... if it supports A, B, C, you check for A, B, then C
18:56:06 [timeless]
... i don't think it matters
18:56:13 [timeless]
... i still would like to see a defined order
18:56:20 [timeless]
israelh: i think it'd be silly
18:56:29 [timeless]
... to not be spec compliant just because of error order
18:56:34 [adrianba]
18:56:37 [timeless]
sicking: you aren't compliant because of arrays
18:56:45 [timeless]
israelh: yes, but that's useful because it addresses a UC
18:56:48 [timeless]
... but exception order?
18:56:54 [timeless]
... what UCs does it help
18:57:00 [timeless]
adrianba: different between not implementing a feature
18:57:04 [timeless]
... and here
18:57:10 [timeless]
... we're saying "multiple things are wrong here"
18:57:17 [Ms2ger]
I wonder how much time it would take to implement a consistent order, and how much time has already been wasted on objections
18:57:20 [timeless]
... in the end, the operation isn't going to complete
18:57:27 [timeless]
... i don't think it matters to web developers
18:57:30 [JaeChung]
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18:57:36 [timeless]
... knowing there are multiple things wrong
18:57:43 [timeless]
... you're told about one, and stop
18:57:47 [timeless]
chaals: if we accept your position
18:58:01 [timeless]
... actual order in which you burst into flames, break down, and explode
18:58:18 [timeless]
... we'll get a comment from a web dev explaining why we're ruining his business, his life, and his relationship
18:58:23 [timeless]
... how many of those will we get?
18:58:30 [timeless]
sicking: not a hill i will die on
18:58:43 [timeless]
sicking: people will do crazy stuff
18:58:50 [timeless]
... things may work in one impl and not another
18:58:56 [timeless]
... fine w/ punting and leaving undefined here
18:58:59 [Ms2ger]
Might as well do it now
18:59:04 [timeless]
adrianba: maybe we'll get impl experience
18:59:11 [timeless]
... about whether or not this is a problem
18:59:16 [timeless]
... in CR
18:59:29 [timeless]
lyle: if we don't get a recommendation of the order, then implementers will never get in sync
18:59:33 [timeless]
... can we get a recommendation list
18:59:44 [timeless]
... and say we'd like people to align to this
18:59:51 [timeless]
chaals: i don't see that as a solution
18:59:56 [timeless]
... you set up an expectation for developers
19:00:06 [timeless]
... then they'll see it was a sales pitch
19:00:27 [timeless]
... we just tell them don't trigger multiple failures
19:00:35 [timeless]
israelh: exceptions are things that you're not going to deal w/ in most cases
19:00:44 [timeless]
... DataErrorException or CloningProblem
19:00:49 [timeless]
... things i'll overcome: errors
19:00:53 [timeless]
... failed to commit to database
19:00:57 [timeless]
... that i need to retry
19:01:04 [timeless]
... the error model is robust enough
19:01:06 [timeless]
lyle: i disagre
19:01:12 [timeless]
... if you deal w/ errors in a different order
19:01:17 [jsbell]
19:01:22 [timeless]
... how you handle an error is very important to an application
19:01:39 [adrianba]
19:01:47 [timeless]
lyle: we can chat over lunch
19:01:53 [timeless]
israelh: the errors are so different
19:02:43 [arun]
Objections were cited about moving the API to Futures
19:03:35 [jsbell]
as out of scope for V1 Last Call
19:05:17 [smaug]
ArtB: how long lunch you'll have?
19:05:48 [smaug]
19:05:52 [smaug]
19:06:39 [Zakim]
19:06:39 [ArtB]
ArtB: I will block on starting a CfC for LC of IDL until I get a Go message from Joshua, Israel and Jonas
19:06:43 [Ms2ger]
Enjoy lunch
19:06:51 [Ms2ger]
19:06:54 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:06:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
19:08:56 [marcosc]
zakim, who is here?
19:08:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Paypal, Marcos
19:08:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JaeChung, tantek, sicking, garykac, Jin_Peng, arun, davidb, EricU, dgrogan_cloud, jeffh, shepazu, tantek_, jsbell, Travis, acolwell, tlr, JonathanJ, Jungkee, yosuke,
19:08:57 [Zakim]
... TylerB, Bin_Hu, eliot, bryan, darobin, wonsuk, plh, lgombos
19:10:18 [Zakim]
19:12:40 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
19:27:46 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
19:42:54 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
19:58:07 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
20:07:27 [JonathanJ]
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20:08:48 [Dashiva]
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20:08:54 [garykac]
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20:09:09 [plh3]
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20:10:16 [timeless]
present+ Arun_Ranganathan
20:11:26 [lyle]
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20:11:30 [lyle]
20:11:39 [jsbell]
20:11:47 [Zakim]
20:11:48 [timeless]
present+ Gary_Kacmarcik
20:11:54 [timeless]
Topic: DOM3 Events - Status Update
20:12:04 [ArtB] -> DOM 3 Events Bugs
20:12:07 [krisk]
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20:12:11 [timeless]
Travis: please don't raise any concerns or questions
20:12:16 [timeless]
20:12:18 [ArtB] -> Open Issues
20:12:21 [timeless]
s/https/-> https/
20:12:28 [timeless]
20:12:32 [timeless]
s/http/-> http/
20:12:37 [Zakim]
20:12:39 [timeless]
Travis: we did a LC
20:12:43 [ArtB] -> LC Comment Tracking for D3E
20:12:51 [smaug]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
20:12:51 [Zakim]
+Olli_Pettay; got it
20:12:51 [timeless]
... and we now have implementers working on the last bits
20:13:03 [timeless]
... the new action is the Keyboard events
20:13:08 [timeless]
... mozilla has given us a bunch of bugs
20:13:10 [smaug]
Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
20:13:10 [Zakim]
ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
20:13:15 [timeless]
... related to specific issues in the spec
20:13:16 [JaeChung]
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20:13:22 [timeless]
... hey, you need a key value for a given thing
20:13:28 [timeless]
... we have 25 of these bugs
20:13:29 [ArtB]
( 26 open D3E bugs open ATM)
20:13:35 [timeless]
... garykac and i have reviewed them all
20:13:44 [timeless]
... a lot of them are editorial fixups
20:13:49 [timeless]
... fixing explanatory stuff in the spec
20:14:09 [timeless]
... then we have to work on tests
20:14:15 [timeless]
... we ported tests to github
20:14:21 [timeless]
... we have 20 or so tests
20:14:32 [timeless]
... that look at event model/propagation - supported by 100% of browsers
20:14:38 [timeless]
... what's missing is tests on key combinations
20:14:43 [timeless]
... where we're getting bugs
20:14:58 [timeless]
... our effort in the next several months is work on places where we need to beef up tests in these cases
20:15:03 [timeless]
... from mozilla and hopefully google
20:15:12 [timeless]
... for future requests, we've spun up the UI Events document
20:15:19 [timeless]
... which is taking open requests for new features
20:15:31 [timeless]
present+ Jin_Peng
20:15:36 [timeless]
Travis: that's the status
20:15:46 [timeless]
... we'll need multiple months to get the spec prose updated
20:15:51 [timeless]
... reissue, a 3rd LC
20:16:00 [timeless]
... we'll try to keep the LC period short (3-4 weeks)
20:16:07 [timeless]
... and work on getting tests identified and approved
20:16:15 [timeless]
... by next TPAC we could propose CR
20:16:17 [smaug]
only 3rd last call and the spec is 10+ years old :)
20:16:21 [timeless]
... which i've said for years and years
20:16:30 [timeless]
chaals: you can copy that from last year's TPAC
20:16:34 [timeless]
ArtB: we can blame shepazu
20:16:43 [timeless]
garykac: we talked/worked during lunch
20:16:51 [timeless]
... concerned that the editorial comment come down to
20:16:57 [timeless]
... "this spec is unclear" in a bunch of points
20:17:05 [timeless]
... a lot of that will require adding additional information
20:17:15 [timeless]
... we'd like to have the minutiae encoded in the tests
20:17:27 [timeless]
... and we can't get this spec signed off on w/o this being encoded in the tests
20:17:36 [timeless]
... there's talk that this is blocking IME
20:17:42 [timeless]
... the messy part is DOM keyboard stuff
20:17:52 [timeless]
... a lot of DOM keyboard could be extracted out
20:18:00 [timeless]
... keyboard events will take at least until the end of the year
20:18:22 [timeless]
smaug: I will talk to masayuki if he can help with key event tests while implementing that stuff to Gecko
20:18:44 [timeless]
chaals: we're beginning to suspect that keyboard events are tricky, after 10 years on it
20:18:55 [timeless]
... i don't have a great position on this (splitting it out)
20:18:58 [timeless]
... dom2 did this
20:19:13 [timeless]
garykac: was it a separate doc, or did they put it as dom3 keyboard?
20:19:21 [timeless]
chaals: they did it as `something they'll do later`
20:19:24 [timeless]
... now it's `later`
20:19:28 [timeless]
... what are we better off doing
20:19:36 [timeless]
... if we can get the rest of the spec out, w/o key events
20:19:44 [timeless]
... we're not forcing people to do specs
20:19:50 [timeless]
... we do them when it's painful
20:19:58 [timeless]
... keyboard events are clearly painful around the web
20:20:09 [timeless]
... what do people think?
20:20:25 [timeless]
Travis: if they've been blocked on D3E for years, a few months isn't a big deal
20:20:37 [timeless]
... keyboard events are in much better place now, than when DOM2 was wrapping up
20:20:43 [timeless]
... whichever path
20:20:50 [timeless]
... is about accelerating the spec
20:20:50 [marcosc]
zakim, passcode?
20:20:50 [Zakim]
the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, marcosc
20:20:53 [timeless]
... we want to get it all done
20:21:07 [Zakim]
20:21:10 [timeless]
... i don't think keyboard is blocking any more than the rest
20:21:28 [timeless]
glenn_: from my perspective, there's no point in publishing D3E w/o keyboard
20:21:36 [timeless]
... it's the thing missing from DOM events for a long time
20:21:44 [timeless]
... i'd have to object
20:21:54 [timeless]
chaals: other takers?
20:22:05 [timeless]
... i lean to not splitting it out
20:22:09 [timeless]
... keep pain in front of us
20:22:14 [JonathanJ]
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20:22:17 [timeless]
garykac: i got the impression that people are afraid of the spec
20:22:24 [timeless]
... i got the impression minor changes aren't going in
20:22:32 [timeless]
... i'm fine w/ them staying in as long as we're making progress
20:22:42 [timeless]
... concerned that there's concern it's collapsing under its own weight
20:22:49 [timeless]
... but i think it's getting close
20:22:55 [timeless]
... just dotting i's, crossing t's
20:23:04 [timeless]
... right now, if you implemented, it wouldn't be cross browser
20:23:15 [timeless]
ArtB: are you two editing the spec right now?
20:23:19 [timeless]
Travis: right now, it's just me
20:23:25 [timeless]
... but i don't see why i couldn't add garykac
20:23:37 [timeless]
ArtB: i see 26 bugs
20:23:52 [timeless]
Travis: a lot are `just add this keyboard code`
20:24:03 [timeless]
garykac: i'm volunteering to edit
20:24:11 [timeless]
... to add keyboard codes, and fix English
20:24:20 [timeless]
weinig: Sam Weinig, Apple
20:24:33 [timeless]
present+ Sam_Weinig
20:24:44 [timeless]
chaals: hearing "we'll be done by some TPAC"
20:24:51 [timeless]
garykac: we need to get our testing situation in order
20:24:57 [timeless]
... w/o that, we don't have confidence in order
20:25:34 [timeless]
chaals: so, "Testcases are accepted, welcome, and wanted"
20:25:48 [timeless]
ArtB: we have Alex Kuang from Microsoft as test facilitator
20:26:01 [timeless]
krisk: there's room for more tests
20:26:33 [timeless]
garykac: i'd imagine signing up for tests
20:26:43 [timeless]
ArtB: does 75% sound fine for coverage?
20:26:44 [krisk]
20:26:48 [timeless]
garykac: for keyboard, closer to 5%
20:26:57 [timeless]
... other parts probably have test coverage
20:27:14 [timeless]
krisk: we set up test facilitators so that editors wouldn't do everything
20:27:24 [krisk]
20:27:26 [timeless]
Travis: garykac, do you want to replace alex?
20:27:30 [timeless]
garykac: that's fine
20:27:44 [timeless]
krisk: i love your passion
20:27:56 [israelh]
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20:28:06 [timeless]
Topic: Web Components
20:28:13 [timeless]
dglazkov: wanted to give a quick update
20:28:15 [timeless]
... since the last
20:28:20 [timeless]
... delta or absolute?
20:28:25 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
20:28:25 [timeless]
... Absolute first
20:28:32 [timeless]
... we wrote an explaner a long time ago
20:28:38 [timeless]
... turned it into a Doc for this WG a while ago
20:28:47 [timeless]
... this turned into 4 specs
20:28:57 [timeless]
... Shadow DOM, XX2, XX3, XX4
20:29:06 [timeless]
... there's a risk of a fifth spec
20:29:17 [ArtB] -> Web Components Explainer/Intro
20:29:24 [timeless]
20:29:28 [timeless]
s/http/-> http/
20:29:53 [timeless]
dglazkov: the goal was never to have HTML Templates as its own spec
20:29:56 [timeless]
... it's an extension spec
20:30:02 [timeless]
chaals: that would be in Plan 2014
20:30:13 [timeless]
darobin: we could just fold it directly into html
20:30:22 [timeless]
dglazkov: i'm really happy about that
20:30:28 [timeless]
... it never seemed like a separate feature
20:30:51 [timeless]
... there were several issues about Parsing
20:30:59 [timeless]
... they have been ironed out since our last conversation
20:31:05 [timeless]
MikeSmith: what was the resolution on XML parsing?
20:31:12 [timeless]
dglazkov: there's graceful fallback mode
20:31:19 [timeless]
MikeSmith: the feature works in xml
20:31:19 [ArtB]
-> HTML Templates
20:31:20 [timeless]
... cool
20:31:34 [ArtB]
-> Shadow DOM
20:31:41 [timeless]
dglazkov: next is Shadow DOM
20:31:49 [timeless]
... mozilla has a lot of questions
20:31:51 [timeless]
... that's great
20:31:57 [timeless]
... next is to work w/ CSS WG
20:32:04 [timeless]
... on integration, w/ Selectors
20:32:11 [timeless]
... there's value for other specs too
20:32:16 [timeless]
... scope relative selectors
20:32:30 [timeless]
... - which were vastly underspecified
20:32:33 [MikeSmith]
q+ to ask about the <decorator> spec
20:32:36 [timeless]
... recently we had existential questions
20:33:04 [timeless]
... Element, Shadow DOM, Declarative
20:33:12 [timeless]
... I plan to resume work on Shadow DOM - RSN
20:33:17 [timeless]
... Shadow DOM has a nice test suite
20:33:48 [dglazkov]
20:33:54 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
20:33:57 [timeless]
... as tests were written, we discovered bugs and fixed it
20:34:05 [timeless]
... as the spec is updated, we plan to update the tests too
20:34:14 [timeless]
... we're failing several tests right now
20:34:20 [timeless]
sicking: a big concern we have
20:34:35 [timeless]
... is using selectors for insertion points is too damn slow
20:34:39 [timeless]
... does webkit deal w/ it right now?
20:34:46 [timeless]
... and you handle all possible dynamic modifications?
20:34:55 [timeless]
dglazkov: yes, and the test suite tests for that
20:35:05 [timeless]
... the problem of combinatorial expansion is prohibitive
20:35:09 [timeless]
... but it tests every selector
20:35:34 [ArtB]
-> Custom Elements
20:35:43 [timeless]
... Custom Elements let you define your own platform objects
20:35:58 [timeless]
... the problem w/ this, is that it operates in a space shared by several other specs, WebIDL, DOM, HTML
20:36:11 [timeless]
... that space is irregular, it involved fixing bugs in all of those specs
20:36:17 [timeless]
... huge thanks to Mozilla, and especially bz
20:36:20 [shepazutu]
shepazutu has joined #webapps
20:36:25 [timeless]
... in guiding me, and helping me to understand how to do this
20:36:25 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow update Pubstatus of D3E to reflect Gary's participation in Editing and Testing
20:36:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-686 - Update Pubstatus of D3E to reflect Gary's participation in Editing and Testing [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
20:36:35 [timeless]
... it's fairly well settled at least for imperative
20:36:47 [timeless]
... Declarative syntax of custom elements is still up in the air
20:36:56 [timeless]
... i don't expect it to be this way for much longer
20:36:58 [timeless]
... we have an idea
20:37:05 [timeless]
... and now that imperative is fairly solid
20:37:22 [timeless]
s/HTML, _and_ TC39/
20:37:33 [timeless]
s|s/HTML, _and_ TC39/||
20:37:38 [timeless]
s/HTML/HTML, _and_ TC39/
20:37:55 [timeless]
dglazkov: we've ironed out this for ECMAScript 6
20:38:01 [timeless]
chaals: you have this ironed out?
20:38:07 [timeless]
dglazkov: yes, you can feed it a Class
20:38:15 [timeless]
... next step, is to issue a draft
20:38:19 [timeless]
ArtB: i'll start a CfC
20:38:30 [timeless]
dglazkov: tross is not here
20:38:36 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish FPWD of Custom Elements
20:38:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-687 - Start a CfC to publish FPWD of Custom Elements [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
20:38:37 [timeless]
... he contributed to the discussion
20:38:39 [timeless]
... on synchronicity
20:38:54 [ArtB]
-> HTML Imports
20:38:55 [timeless]
... HTML Imports, another huge patch on html
20:39:13 [timeless]
... which is how custom elements declarative syntax will integrate
20:39:17 [timeless]
... i have an early draft
20:39:25 [timeless]
... it's probably ready to do FPWD
20:39:35 [timeless]
... its lifespan is intertwined w/ Custom Elements
20:39:51 [timeless]
ArtB: any objections to FPWD of HTML Imports?
20:39:55 [timeless]
MikeSmith: decorator?
20:39:58 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow start CfC for FPWD of HTML Imports
20:39:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-688 - Start CfC for FPWD of HTML Imports [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
20:40:06 [timeless]
dglazkov: yes
20:40:08 [timeless]
MikeSmith: there's no spec?
20:40:12 [timeless]
dglazkov: yes
20:40:17 [timeless]
... we're walking around a large structure
20:40:27 [timeless]
... i figured we'd start walking, and see what we can see from there
20:40:41 [timeless]
... if you look at the explainer, they're the most hand-wavy part
20:40:52 [timeless]
... web developers were saying wouldn't it be nice
20:41:00 [timeless]
... it's really cool, but very dangerous
20:41:06 [timeless]
... you're running script on selector
20:41:11 [timeless]
... everyone who's done this before
20:41:16 [timeless]
... MS and Mozilla/hixie
20:41:20 [timeless]
... have said it's very dangerous
20:41:26 [timeless]
... if people want it, we might consider it
20:41:29 [timeless]
... i have no plans at this point
20:41:43 [timeless]
ArtB: the explainer is a nice document
20:41:49 [timeless]
... do you see a need to update it?
20:41:53 [timeless]
dglazkov: it has been updated
20:41:59 [timeless]
... we need to publish another version
20:42:10 [timeless]
... it used to be forward looking
20:42:13 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish new WD of the Web Components Explainer
20:42:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-689 - Start CfC to publish new WD of the Web Components Explainer [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
20:42:19 [timeless]
... the process is working
20:42:29 [timeless]
hober: thanks for the status update
20:42:37 [timeless]
... wonder if you want to take time to look at open issues
20:42:41 [timeless]
... and maybe get ideas
20:42:59 [timeless]
chaals: we have time
20:43:10 [timeless]
dglazkov: i'm bug-happy
20:43:14 [timeless]
... i file bugs on my specs
20:43:18 [timeless]
... 186 bugs
20:43:25 [timeless]
... best way to look at it is a tree
20:43:27 [ArtB]
-> Web Components Bugs
20:43:48 [dglazkov]
20:44:21 [dglazkov]
20:44:41 [timeless]
20:44:48 [timeless]
s/http/-> http/
20:45:11 [timeless]
s/=1/=1 Dependency tree for dglazkov 's work/
20:45:21 [timeless]
chaals: given 15 minutes
20:45:25 [timeless]
... where would you like input?
20:45:35 [timeless]
dglazkov: shadow dom -- document fragment
20:45:40 [timeless]
... callbacks in custom elements
20:45:51 [timeless]
... double checking that we've got it right
20:46:02 [timeless]
... there's another session w/ WebAppSec on isolation/security
20:46:11 [timeless]
chaals: anyone have this swapped into their brains?
20:46:12 [timeless]
[ Silence ]
20:46:59 [timeless]
dglazkov: Custom Elements
20:47:09 [timeless]
chaals: take 5 minutes to do a walk through
20:47:16 [timeless]
chaals: i'm happy to take a long break
20:47:36 [ArtB]
-> Custom Elements
20:47:48 [timeless]
[ dglazkov walks through Custom Elements ]
20:48:03 [timeless]
dglazkov: it lets an author provide a native like object
20:48:08 [timeless]
... DOM objects are magical
20:48:12 [timeless]
... they seem to have Constructors
20:48:15 [timeless]
... but you can't subclass
20:48:21 [timeless]
... you can't new things
20:48:29 [timeless]
... it gives you something that seems like a DOM object
20:48:39 [timeless]
... this spec doesn't refer to es6
20:48:50 [timeless]
... the idea is that the construct() internal method is overwritten
20:49:00 [timeless]
... in Registering Custom Elements
20:49:08 [timeless]
... an element definition is registered w/ the document
20:49:14 [timeless]
... and you get back a constructor
20:49:20 [timeless]
... generated for you by the browser
20:49:28 [timeless]
... it hooks the magic into the thing
20:49:34 [timeless]
... you don't have to worry about how it works
20:49:50 [timeless]
... when this object is instantiated by browser (parsing, construct node, adopt node)
20:49:54 [timeless]
... JS isn't run
20:50:01 [timeless]
... as a consolation prize for developers
20:50:09 [timeless]
... we have a ready-callback
20:50:19 [timeless]
... roughly at mutation time
20:50:29 [timeless]
... if i need to initiate things
20:50:33 [timeless]
... i do it during this callback
20:50:43 [timeless]
... we'll add, an insertion-callback and a removal-callback
20:50:55 [timeless]
... to be notified when a document is in/out of the document
20:51:06 [timeless]
... you don't want a Clock to be running when it's outside of the document
20:51:11 [timeless]
... lots of cool things
20:51:16 [timeless]
... making sure we don't break invariants
20:51:20 [timeless]
... of HTML/SVG
20:51:34 [timeless]
... we do this thing where you can instantiate anything that inherits from Element
20:51:51 [timeless]
... but in reality, only things that inherit from HTMLElement/SVGElement
20:51:59 [timeless]
... we actually swizzle- prototypes
20:52:04 [timeless]
... there's a quantum of time
20:52:11 [timeless]
... you define your own element, put it in a tree
20:52:26 [timeless]
... later on, it becomes
20:52:34 [JonathanJ]
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20:52:35 [timeless]
... we ensure that the prototype chain
20:52:40 [timeless]
... the top of the chain doesn't change
20:52:52 [timeless]
... so it never has to modify past the ...
20:53:08 [timeless]
... ElementRegistrationOptions looks suspiciously like a function
20:53:16 [timeless]
... this would be a Class once ES6 arrives
20:53:30 [timeless]
... right now you can pass any object
20:53:54 [timeless]
ArtB: you said something about Implementation Status?
20:53:57 [timeless]
dglazkov: it's early
20:54:06 [timeless]
... Mozilla has some code, Blink has some code, WebKit has some code
20:54:08 [timeless]
... none is runnable
20:54:33 [timeless]
weinig: i'm still curious, years later
20:54:46 [timeless]
... why is it necessary to inherit from existing browser specified objects
20:54:52 [timeless]
... what benefit do you get over composition
20:54:57 [timeless]
... i know we've been over this before
20:55:06 [timeless]
... but i don't think it's been sufficiently explained
20:55:11 [timeless]
dglazkov: the basic goal
20:55:22 [timeless]
... Custom Elements explains how DOM Elements are born
20:55:30 [timeless]
... you could build <video>, <audio> elements
20:55:31 [alecf]
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20:55:37 [timeless]
... it doesn't build another layer of the platform
20:55:42 [timeless]
... it tries to explain how it works
20:55:50 [timeless]
... we tried not to add another layer
20:55:55 [timeless]
... just explain a layer
20:56:14 [timeless]
weinig: is there a benefit to subclassing <p> ?
20:56:26 [timeless]
... usually subclassing, is for when you want to
20:56:34 [timeless]
... if you override something that's custom
20:56:41 [timeless]
... -- sometimes you can't inherit
20:56:59 [timeless]
dglazkov: the key is to inherit from Element
20:57:03 [timeless]
... and we allow that
20:57:09 [timeless]
weinig: i think you want to limit yourself
20:57:13 [timeless]
dglazkov: why?
20:57:19 [timeless]
weinig: the future is big
20:57:25 [timeless]
... take the limited thing, iterate on that
20:57:33 [timeless]
... we don't have to do everything at once
20:57:43 [timeless]
dglazkov: i think the spec is fine
20:57:51 [timeless]
... i think we could limit it to HTMLElement
20:57:57 [timeless]
weinig: looking for UCs
20:57:57 [JaeChung]
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20:58:02 [timeless]
... i know mozilla is doing this
20:58:19 [timeless]
... are there cases where inheriting from <video> makes sense?
20:58:45 [timeless]
... We wanted to solve this
20:58:52 [timeless]
... to make some things not a blocker
20:58:57 [timeless]
... we didn't want to leave us stuck
20:59:13 [timeless]
weinig: we could limit to only inheriting to objects speced as inheritable
20:59:21 [timeless]
... start from that direction
20:59:26 [timeless]
... so you could go forward
20:59:35 [timeless]
... and say, now Hixie has added inheritable to X object
20:59:40 [timeless]
dglazkov: this is interesting
20:59:45 [timeless]
... this is similar to events
20:59:51 [timeless]
... whether an event stops at shadow dom
20:59:57 [timeless]
... that's an interesting idea
21:00:06 [timeless]
weinig: it would reduce the complexity of the spec
21:00:11 [timeless]
... these specs are very dense
21:00:16 [timeless]
... when we started this
21:00:23 [timeless]
... the idea was that XBL2 was very complex
21:00:26 [timeless]
... and we didn't want that
21:00:36 [timeless]
dglazkov: Shadow DOM is the guts of XBL2
21:00:41 [timeless]
... i just made sure it was bullet proof
21:00:49 [timeless]
... by the time you tried to address all the bits in XBL2
21:00:54 [timeless]
... it would be larger
21:01:04 [timeless]
... i just made the guts of XBL2 real
21:01:18 [timeless]
... when you make something real -- solidify
21:01:25 [timeless]
... make it more concrete
21:01:33 [timeless]
... Custom Elements is a really small spec
21:01:42 [timeless]
... it's the complexity of explaining the life cycle
21:01:52 [timeless]
... it doesn't matter if it's <hr>, <div>, <button>
21:01:56 [timeless]
... they have the same lifecycle
21:02:01 [timeless]
21:02:12 [timeless]
ack MikeSmith
21:02:13 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about the <decorator> spec
21:02:29 [timeless]
chaals: he already asked about that
21:02:41 [timeless]
ArtB: anything chaals and i can do to help?
21:02:48 [timeless]
dglazkov: i'm very happy w/ what you guys have done
21:02:56 [adrianba]
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21:02:56 [timeless]
ArtB: so you don't want us to get involved?
21:03:04 [timeless]
... is everything happening on public-webapps?
21:03:14 [timeless]
dglazkov: G+ is writeonly (updateS)
21:03:16 [timeless]
21:03:29 [timeless]
... public-webapps, and some threads on public-style
21:03:31 [hober]
q+ to talk about simplifying the shadow dom spec
21:03:45 [timeless]
ArtB: thanks
21:03:47 [timeless]
chaals: thanks
21:03:49 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
21:04:01 [hober]
21:04:01 [timeless]
q- hober
21:04:57 [timeless]
[ Break until 2:30pm ]
21:05:35 [timeless]
present+ Robin_Berjon
21:15:00 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:15:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
21:17:49 [Zakim]
21:19:11 [dgrogan_cloud]
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21:27:02 [tobie]
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21:28:20 [JaeChung]
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21:38:06 [timeless]
Topic: CSP
21:38:16 [bhill2]
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21:38:23 [timeless]
present+ Daniel_Veditz
21:38:37 [bhill2]
I hope the topic is Web Components Security Model, rather than CSP
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21:38:47 [arun]
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21:38:53 [timeless]
present+ Brad_Hill
21:39:01 [wseltzer]
present+ Wendy_Seltzer
21:39:06 [timeless]
dglazkov: welcome security people
21:39:08 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
21:39:13 [lyle]
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21:39:15 [timeless]
dglazkov: i have a few goodies for you
21:39:18 [timeless]
... and some are baddie
21:39:21 [timeless]
21:39:24 [drogersuk]
present+ David_Rogers
21:39:30 [timeless]
... i'm the guy trying to drive Web Components
21:39:30 [ArtB]
-> Daniel Buchner re CSP and Web Components
21:39:32 [abarth]
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21:39:35 [timeless]
... i have some questions
21:39:36 [tanvi]
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21:39:40 [timeless]
... tactical, and philosophical
21:39:48 [timeless]
... we have this "CSP" thing
21:39:54 [timeless]
... we invented a new syntax for Custom Elements
21:40:02 [timeless]
... the ability to build your own custom DOM elements
21:40:13 [timeless]
... let's go to the explainer
21:40:36 [timeless]
... go to custom elements
21:40:43 [timeless]
... it has a new element
21:40:46 [timeless]
... i call it "<element>"
21:41:01 [timeless]
... one of the things we have there is the ability to have an initialization script in a custom element
21:41:09 [timeless]
... it runs once, when the element is registered
21:41:21 [timeless]
... this lets me add methods to the prototype for this thing built for me
21:41:25 [timeless]
... this is subject to change
21:41:33 [timeless]
... someone pointed out "dude, this is bad"
21:41:37 [timeless]
... i said "i dunno"
21:41:43 [timeless]
... they said "look CSP"
21:41:51 [timeless]
... it's not technically <script>
21:42:00 [timeless]
... and TC39 people convinced me it's a normal script
21:42:02 [ArtB]
-> Custom Element using script example
21:42:19 [timeless]
... does this need to have <script src> to be CSP-ok ?
21:42:26 [timeless]
... the idea is to put styles, script, markup in one place
21:42:35 [timeless]
... you might load it in one place
21:42:41 [timeless]
... separating it out seems bad
21:42:48 [timeless]
... they want their Taco
21:42:56 [timeless]
... folded into one place
21:43:22 [timeless]
present+ Adam_Barth
21:43:30 [timeless]
barth: when this script executes
21:43:34 [timeless]
... it executes in what context?
21:43:44 [timeless]
dglazkov: we experimented during our youth
21:43:49 [timeless]
... i think it will execute in normal context
21:44:03 [timeless]
dveditz: is that chunk embedded in the main file?
21:44:08 [timeless]
... loaded in a separate file?
21:44:15 [timeless]
dglazkov: could have it both ways
21:44:24 [timeless]
dveditz: we're talking about a "script-nonce"
21:44:30 [timeless]
... concern is if your element can do that
21:44:41 [timeless]
... then something that could inject into that page
21:44:47 [timeless]
... script-nonce could be a solution
21:44:50 [timeless]
... maybe not
21:44:57 [timeless]
... if they're loaded externally, are they loaded how?
21:45:01 [timeless]
dglazkov: HTML Imports
21:45:09 [timeless]
... they're loaded into a non-executable process
21:45:16 [timeless]
dveditz: loaded through a new tag?
21:45:21 [timeless]
dglazkov: <link rel>
21:45:26 [timeless]
dveditz: so we could invent special rules
21:45:34 [timeless]
dglazkov: so we could have that supply a nonce
21:45:47 [timeless]
21:46:01 [timeless]
... by default we'll consider that bad, and come up w/ a fix
21:46:08 [timeless]
dglazkov: relating to what barth said
21:46:19 [timeless]
... what if this did execute in a separate script context?
21:46:25 [timeless]
... what if you could have dom elements born somewhere else
21:46:31 [timeless]
... to provide some isolation
21:46:37 [timeless]
... i have no idea how this would work
21:46:47 [timeless]
... if you import this using an external other document
21:46:51 [timeless]
... you get their own document
21:47:03 [timeless]
... but they somehow appear as DOM in the main tree
21:47:11 [timeless]
... and of course, there are issues w/ read / style information
21:47:16 [timeless]
... but it's an interesting problem
21:47:25 [timeless]
... there's lots of code to provide `like` and `plus`
21:47:30 [timeless]
... most of that code has bugs
21:47:38 [timeless]
bhill2: i agree w/ that concern
21:47:47 [timeless]
... that's one of the reasons i wanted to bring our group over
21:47:58 [timeless]
... those other buttons are implemented w/ <script src>
21:48:09 [timeless]
... the most popular of those widgets provide a single point of failure
21:48:16 [timeless]
... Facebook like/google analytic
21:48:34 [timeless]
... a bug in Facebook Connect nuked a quarter of the Internet for a couple hours
21:48:38 [timeless]
... not sure how to do that either
21:48:44 [timeless]
dglazkov: an abstraction is Shadow DOM
21:48:50 [timeless]
... i think that may help
21:48:59 [timeless]
... we may be able to do something really interesting
21:49:04 [jeffh]
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21:49:06 [timeless]
... i'm excited about solving this problem
21:49:20 [timeless]
... i had discussions w/ Caja
21:49:25 [timeless]
chaals: spanish for Bank
21:49:41 [timeless]
dglazkov: sounds like a lot of people interested in solving this
21:49:44 [timeless]
... i don't see a path
21:49:53 [timeless]
... i spoke w/ barth and he said give up now
21:49:55 [timeless]
barth: yes
21:50:04 [timeless]
dglazkov: we have abstractions, it'd be a shame if we didn't use them
21:50:15 [timeless]
... i'd really appreciate if i could meet with you guys later
21:50:19 [timeless]
... have a brainstorm
21:50:21 [JaeChung]
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21:50:24 [timeless]
... we don't have much time here-now
21:50:37 [timeless]
bhill2: we'd welcome you and others to chat w/ us tomorrow
21:50:39 [timeless]
... we have time
21:50:53 [timeless]
dglazkov: i can give you a brief intro, perhaps an hour of your time (tomrrow)
21:51:09 [timeless]
ArtB: our meeting ends tomorrow at noon
21:51:18 [timeless]
bhill2: we're working on tests in the afternoon
21:51:33 [timeless]
Topic: CORS
21:51:38 [timeless]
ArtB: interested in a quick status
21:51:52 [timeless]
bhill2: we have a reasonably complete test suite for CORS
21:52:03 [timeless]
... odin has issued a call on it
21:52:16 [timeless]
... we're running into issues w/ servers swallowing headers
21:52:25 [timeless]
... we're working on a new status 308
21:52:35 [timeless]
... there's a new RFC, it's being implemented in Firefox
21:52:44 [timeless]
... it may be AT-RISK, not enough implementers
21:52:48 [timeless]
... we're at CR
21:52:56 [timeless]
... time on agenda to go into more detail
21:53:01 [virginie]
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21:53:05 [timeless]
ArtB: anything else?
21:53:11 [timeless]
... at 3pm, we have another group
21:53:20 [timeless]
wonsuk: we will have a discussion about CSP?
21:53:42 [timeless]
s/Topic: CSP/Topic: Web Components Security Model/
21:53:45 [timeless]
Topic: CSP
21:53:47 [krijnh]
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21:53:52 [timeless]
bhill2: we have very few tests
21:54:03 [timeless]
... we have an invited expert who has written some tests, but not in the standard format
21:54:07 [JonathanJ]
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21:54:18 [timeless]
... we don't have a test suite that maps to individual points in the spec
21:54:30 [timeless]
ArtB: are you meeting at TPAC?
21:54:45 [timeless]
bhill2: that question is next on our agenda after this joint meeting
21:55:43 [timeless]
ArtB: thanks for coming
21:55:44 [wseltzer]
[WebAppSec leaves]
21:55:46 [ArtB]
ArtB: thanks Brad, Adam, Daniel, All
21:56:02 [timeless]
21:56:43 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
21:56:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
21:59:02 [lyle]
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21:59:07 [lyle]
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22:08:52 [shepazu]
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22:13:52 [JaeChung]
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22:14:47 [smaug]
does anyone have links to the tpac minutes about IME
22:16:01 [timeless]
Topic: XXXX
22:16:13 [timeless]
[ Introductions ]
22:17:32 [timeless]
s/XXXX/IME with PF/
22:18:43 [lyle]
22:18:47 [krisk]
present+ krisk
22:18:51 [bryan]
present+ Bryan_Sullivan
22:18:56 [eliot]
present+ eliot_graff
22:19:00 [lgombos]
present+ Laszlo_Gombos
22:19:13 [jcraig]
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22:19:22 [MarkS_]
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22:19:26 [timeless]
MikeSmith: the Google Chrome team in Japan
22:19:29 [timeless]
... identified UCs
22:19:34 [timeless]
... if you're using Bing/Google Suggest
22:19:45 [timeless]
... where, as you type, the web app is taking your key events to give you some suggestions
22:19:53 [timeless]
... which might be things stored associated w/ your accont
22:19:57 [timeless]
22:20:00 [adrianba]
22:20:03 [timeless]
... terms you've searched before
22:20:20 [timeless]
... which is cool if you are typing w/ a language where you don't have an OS/Platform using an IME
22:20:26 [cyns]
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22:20:28 [timeless]
... what happens often in Desktop and Mobile
22:20:38 [timeless]
... the OS IME will pop up a candidate window of completions
22:20:39 [MarkS_]
present+ Mark_Sadecki
22:20:42 [timeless]
... if you've never typed in Japanese
22:20:51 [timeless]
... what you first type into, in a buffer
22:21:02 [timeless]
... sometimes in Roman, some use Hiragana
22:21:17 [timeless]
... then there's a second step to turn things into XXZ
22:21:33 [timeless]
... the problem is that the candidates appear right on top of the page suggestions
22:21:44 [timeless]
... so to see the page suggestions, you need to scroll the page
22:21:45 [dmazzoni]
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22:21:54 [timeless]
... we said "wouldn't it be cool"
22:22:00 [timeless]
... if you could while constructing games
22:22:08 [timeless]
... if you could make your own IME in your app
22:22:15 [timeless]
... and you could tell the OS IME to go away completely
22:22:26 [timeless]
... that second UC ended up to be one that a lot of people don't think is super important
22:22:40 [timeless]
... at the last F2F, mjs said there was no UC for an IME in JS
22:22:48 [timeless]
... but we do have a positioning UC
22:22:55 [timeless]
... i can't speak to Google's priorities
22:23:00 [timeless]
... or schedule
22:23:06 [timeless]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
22:23:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay
22:23:14 [timeless]
... the primary UC is positioning
22:23:39 [timeless]
chaals: apart from Chrome, what's the implementation status?
22:23:44 [timeless]
MikeSmith: no one has implemented this
22:23:55 [timeless]
... kochi started this by sending a message for Blink
22:24:01 [timeless]
... saying he intends to implement
22:24:04 [Travis]
22:24:07 [timeless]
... and i understand he has a looks-good-to-me
22:24:09 [jcraig]
q+ Janina
22:24:16 [jcraig]
22:24:18 [timeless]
chaals: Yandex, our primary market is Russian
22:24:24 [timeless]
... our users normally use a Russian keyboard
22:24:26 [timeless]
... we have UCs
22:24:35 [timeless]
... we have various IMEs that we build in JS in our various products
22:24:36 [ArtB]
22:24:39 [timeless]
... so you can type in on a keyboard
22:24:46 [timeless]
... and we'll give Russian and English suggestions
22:24:51 [timeless]
... so you don't have to switch keyboards
22:24:57 [timeless]
... you can type a string of consontants
22:24:59 [timeless]
... and hit return
22:25:03 [timeless]
... and it will come out
22:25:16 [timeless]
... спасибо
22:25:34 [timeless]
... хорошо
22:25:41 [MikeSmith]
q+ to say that we are looking for feature parity with Flash and other runtimes that do have access to interact with OS/platform IMEs
22:25:42 [timeless]
Travis: microsoft had a chance to review the document
22:25:44 [Travis]
Microsoft proposal:
22:25:45 [timeless]
... quite a while ago
22:25:50 [timeless]
... and submitted feedback to the list
22:25:51 [MikeSmith]
ack Travis
22:25:54 [timeless]
... a quick overview
22:25:57 [timeless]
... it took the ED
22:26:03 [timeless]
... proposed changes
22:26:09 [timeless]
... to have the suggestions window in the right place
22:26:17 [timeless]
... and functionality to retrieve suggestion candidates
22:26:22 [timeless]
... and some optimization suggestions
22:26:28 [timeless]
... and some feedback around ...
22:26:32 [timeless]
ack janina
22:26:35 [timeless]
Janina: thanks
22:26:42 [timeless]
... to give you a high level overview
22:26:52 [timeless]
... those who are also in HTML
22:27:01 [timeless]
... a number of folks in PF are interested in Rich Text Editing
22:27:06 [timeless]
... Russian, Korean, Chinese, etc.
22:27:09 [timeless]
... we think the UCs
22:27:19 [timeless]
... should take in more UCs than the ones you've laid out
22:27:29 [timeless]
... and i'll ask jcraig from apple to lay out some others
22:27:36 [timeless]
... not everyone in PF thinks they want to work on it
22:27:43 [timeless]
... but there's a significant amount of interest to move forward
22:27:54 [timeless]
thank you for the time.
22:28:00 [timeless]
s/thank/... thank/
22:28:13 [timeless]
MikeSmith: part of this is getting feature parity with other runtimes
22:28:20 [timeless]
... Flash gives you the ability to interact w/ the platform
22:28:22 [timeless]
... IMEs
22:28:26 [timeless]
jcraig: James Craig, Apple
22:28:31 [timeless]
... it's good you guys are working on this
22:28:42 [timeless]
... especially setEclusionRectange
22:28:48 [timeless]
... i think MS pointed out
22:28:53 [timeless]
... custom text editing is problematic
22:29:02 [timeless]
... for a lot of reasons beyond Pin-Yin and Romanji
22:29:14 [timeless]
... when you do things in a custom Canvas style text editor
22:29:17 [timeless]
... and you do it in WebGL
22:29:23 [timeless]
... it'll prevent certain things from working
22:29:28 [timeless]
... it'll prevent screen readers from working
22:29:33 [timeless]
... prevent dragon dictate
22:29:46 [timeless]
... -- which has "change this `word` to this `word`"
22:29:52 [timeless]
... if this is something specific to Canvas
22:29:56 [timeless]
... very specific to CJK input methods
22:30:10 [timeless]
... we think this should work along the lines in SetCarat for Canvas
22:30:20 [timeless]
... if it's intended for more than that
22:30:22 [Travis]
22:30:24 [timeless]
... then this isn't nearly enough
22:30:27 [timeless]
.. we need range link
22:30:30 [MikeSmith]
22:30:30 [timeless]
22:30:33 [timeless]
... set value for range
22:30:35 [MikeSmith]
22:30:40 [timeless]
... figure out where the caret should be
22:30:40 [MikeSmith]
ack jcraig
22:30:43 [timeless]
... popup view
22:30:51 [timeless]
... get info about shape, position for suggestions
22:30:58 [timeless]
... if we're considering doing custom rich text editing
22:31:00 [timeless]
... more to be considered
22:31:04 [timeless]
... no way to do it in htlm
22:31:08 [timeless]
22:31:13 [timeless]
... there are ways to do it in every platform
22:31:19 [timeless]
... Google Docs has a completely custom view
22:31:27 [timeless]
... there's no way to do what they're doing in content editable
22:31:33 [timeless]
... they have no choice but to do custom views
22:31:40 [MikeSmith]
is that Dominic Manzonni?
22:31:45 [timeless]
... we have no choice but to make it accessible to people w/ a variety of needs
22:31:52 [timeless]
... CJK, screen readers, magnification
22:32:05 [timeless]
Travis: to point out
22:32:13 [timeless]
... i shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the editors
22:32:18 [jcraig]
q+ Dominic
22:32:19 [timeless]
... it doesn't appear the direction they're taking
22:32:24 [dmazzoni]
dmazzoni has joined #webapps
22:32:25 [timeless]
... is to support custom rich text editing experiences
22:32:30 [timeless]
... seems like they're scoping that out
22:32:39 [jcraig]
22:32:45 [timeless]
... more like supporting what system apis can do w/ regular text entry/text input
22:32:50 [timeless]
... MS has a strong view
22:32:59 [timeless]
... that you shouldn't use Canvas for rich text editing
22:33:07 [timeless]
... we understand it's being done that way, but it's a shame
22:33:16 [timeless]
... we'd rather spend effort to work on contentEditable
22:33:22 [timeless]
ack Travis
22:33:25 [timeless]
ack do
22:33:41 [timeless]
Dominic: not clear if it makes sense to compare ContentEditable w/ Canvas
22:33:44 [timeless]
... i looked at ACE
22:33:47 [timeless]
... Web Mirror
22:33:51 [timeless]
... a bunch of terminal emulators
22:33:55 [timeless]
... a bunch of text editors
22:34:02 [timeless]
... not a single one has focus in the native HTML input control
22:34:03 [lisa]
lisa has joined #webapps
22:34:38 [timeless]
... everything uses an offscreen contentEditable
22:34:40 [sicking]
sicking has joined #webapps
22:34:44 [sicking]
22:34:45 [timeless]
... sometimes an offscreen text area
22:34:57 [timeless]
... to capture typed text, and text pasted from the clipboard
22:35:06 [MikeSmith]
fyi for the record, from the associated use-case document:
22:35:07 [timeless]
... an offscreen contentEditable is the only way to capture rich text
22:35:14 [timeless]
... the method to render is Canvas, SVG, etc.
22:35:20 [timeless]
... some support multiple
22:35:27 [timeless]
... these are widely prevelant
22:35:39 [timeless]
... it's important to support IMEs, accessibility for custom text editor components
22:35:42 [timeless]
22:35:45 [timeless]
ack jcraig
22:35:47 [MikeSmith]
22:35:52 [timeless]
jcraig: good to know they're phasing out canvas
22:35:58 [timeless]
... that's what i saw in the FPWD
22:36:08 [timeless]
... for a combo box where you need an exclusion rectangle
22:36:12 [timeless]
... we have ARIA rectangles
22:36:18 [timeless]
... if you're using standard markup controls
22:36:20 [timeless]
... with ARIA
22:36:25 [timeless]
... our main concern is
22:36:37 [timeless]
... if we're going for the simple case, it can be covered w/ existing technologies
22:36:45 [timeless]
... if we're going for Custom Text editors, we need much more
22:36:46 [timeless]
ack sicking
22:36:56 [timeless]
sicking: one of the problems we're trying to tackle as we're going to mobile
22:37:01 [timeless]
... is how we do keyboards in mobile
22:37:08 [timeless]
... they're dramatically different from desktop
22:37:13 [timeless]
... and there's lots of research
22:37:22 [timeless]
... and we want to enable people to build custom keyboards
22:37:30 [timeless]
... the only realistic solution i see is contentEditable
22:37:36 [timeless]
... i don't blame people for not using contentEditable
22:37:39 [timeless]
... it's completely unusable
22:37:47 [timeless]
... even google can't build a decent editor using it
22:37:56 [timeless]
... i'd encourage people that want to enable editing on the web
22:38:05 [timeless]
... help work on contentEditable
22:38:14 [timeless]
... we'd need lots more for Canvas to work
22:38:25 [timeless]
... each browser has a dramatically different implementation for contentEditable
22:38:33 [timeless]
... you have to write 4 different contentEditable implementations
22:38:39 [cyns]
22:38:43 [timeless]
... if we specified it, we'd do much more for editing on the web
22:38:45 [MikeSmith]
q+ to ask about what CodeMirror, Cloud9, ACE are using
22:38:46 [timeless]
... than Canvas/SVG editing
22:38:49 [timeless]
ack MikeSmith
22:38:49 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about what CodeMirror, Cloud9, ACE are using
22:39:01 [timeless]
MikeSmith: i'm ignorant about how it's used in actual editors
22:39:04 [tanvi]
tanvi has joined #webapps
22:39:08 [timeless]
... i know Cloud9 started out as BeSpin
22:39:15 [timeless]
... which was Canvas, but now they're doing them the right way
22:39:24 [timeless]
... we can excise Canvas from the UC document, it's gone, i checked
22:39:29 [timeless]
... there's a Canvas example in the spec
22:39:32 [timeless]
... we can remove that
22:39:38 [timeless]
... i don't think it's necessary anymore
22:39:47 [timeless]
... it was needed 2 years ago
22:39:56 [timeless]
... but are CodeMirror/Cloud9 legitimate?
22:39:57 [ArtB]
ACTION: smith ask the IME Editors to remove Canvas examples (e.g. images)
22:39:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-690 - Ask the IME Editors to remove Canvas examples (e.g. images) [on Michael[tm] Smith - due 2013-05-02].
22:40:01 [timeless]
Dominic: CodeMirror and ACE
22:40:05 [timeless]
... they do not use Canvas
22:40:14 [jcraig]
q+ to say that the business logic for each web app is different, even the expected editing behavior per app would not be achievable with contenteditable
22:40:20 [timeless]
... what you see visually is not the content of the focused contentEditable
22:40:29 [timeless]
... there's a separate visible contentEditalbe
22:40:34 [timeless]
22:40:38 [timeless]
... if you wrote js
22:40:40 [sicking]
22:40:47 [timeless]
... what the user sees is not what's being edited
22:40:52 [timeless]
MikeSmith: so they're not accessible?
22:40:57 [timeless]
Dominic: they're not
22:41:00 [timeless]
MikeSmith: we can't do that
22:41:05 [timeless]
... i wish kochi was here
22:41:10 [timeless]
... i can take that feedback back
22:41:15 [timeless]
chaals: so... strikes me
22:41:22 [timeless]
... you have a contentEditable where stuff is going on
22:41:28 [timeless]
... if you can look at that point
22:41:35 [timeless]
... you can do the work that the editor is doing
22:41:40 [timeless]
... when it takes the real interaction
22:41:49 [timeless]
... it strikes me that it would be feasible to make it work
22:41:52 [timeless]
... it might not be pleasant
22:42:04 [timeless]
jcraig: prior to my work on A11Y
22:42:07 [timeless]
... i worked on XXXX
22:42:19 [timeless]
... these are usually used for capturing selection, paste, dictation
22:42:30 [timeless]
... there's never any time when the entire document content is in the region
22:42:37 [timeless]
... it's usually an empty region
22:42:47 [timeless]
... the changes aren't reconcilable with the business logic
22:42:54 [timeless]
... being able to translate back in a consistent way
22:43:02 [timeless]
chaals: you'd need to replicate the business logic
22:43:06 [timeless]
... double procssing
22:43:06 [timeless]
22:43:09 [timeless]
ack jcraig
22:43:09 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to say that the business logic for each web app is different, even the expected editing behavior per app would not be achievable with contenteditable
22:43:13 [MikeSmith]
ACTION: Michael[tm] Smith to take back PFWG feedback to the IME API editor (Kochi) and propose we excise the mentions of DOM-based editor use-case in the use-case document, and the specific mentions of <canvas> in the actual spec
22:43:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-691 - Smith to take back PFWG feedback to the IME API editor (Kochi) and propose we excise the mentions of DOM-based editor use-case in the use-case document, and the specific mentions of <canvas> in the actual spec [on Michael[tm] Smith - due 2013-05-02].
22:43:31 [timeless]
jcraig: keyboard behavior may act differently in a ToC
22:43:34 [timeless]
... if you're on a link
22:43:41 [timeless]
... the business logic is only known by the web app
22:43:48 [timeless]
... it isn't known by contentEditable
22:43:55 [timeless]
Dominic: i'm very much in favor of improving contentEditable
22:43:56 [timeless]
... but
22:44:01 [timeless]
... and we need to do that
22:44:06 [cyns]
22:44:08 [timeless]
... i've been playing around with it on the side
22:44:14 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
22:44:17 [timeless]
... you can get a fair amount of accessibility at a fair level
22:44:20 [timeless]
... but to me, they seem
22:44:22 [timeless]
... to mention one
22:44:27 [timeless]
... to scare everyone
22:44:32 [timeless]
... you can take a hidden contentEditable
22:44:40 [timeless]
... it's invisible, but you can position it whereever
22:44:46 [jcraig]
s/XXXX/a contenteditable wiki server/
22:44:47 [timeless]
... you can get the screen magnifier to follow it everywhere
22:44:53 [timeless]
... we're exploring that
22:44:59 [timeless]
... it's hard to get a short term solution
22:45:06 [timeless]
... for screen readers, to only care about one line of text
22:45:11 [timeless]
... it's possible to keep that line up to date
22:45:17 [timeless]
... but it's really difficult hacks
22:45:27 [timeless]
... we really need these apis
22:45:34 [timeless]
... we may need hundreds of apis
22:45:36 [timeless]
... ---
22:45:41 [timeless]
... any text like editor
22:45:51 [chaals]
22:45:52 [timeless]
... for IMEs, a11y, browser extensions
22:45:55 [timeless]
... think about what you could need
22:45:57 [timeless]
22:45:57 [MikeSmith]
q+ to talk about use cases
22:46:00 [timeless]
ack chaals
22:46:03 [timeless]
ack cy
22:46:06 [timeless]
q+ chaals
22:46:14 [timeless]
cyns: curious if a better editor would solve your needs
22:46:15 [chaals]
22:46:21 [lyle]
22:46:25 [timeless]
ack MikeSmith
22:46:25 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to talk about use cases
22:46:35 [timeless]
MikeSmith: i'd like to make a concrete proposal
22:46:39 [timeless]
... we have a UC document
22:46:44 [timeless]
... this document is fairly minimal
22:46:50 [timeless]
... from what i'm hearing
22:46:52 [MikeSmith]
22:46:53 [jcraig]
q+ to mention table editing in contenteditable, and
22:46:55 [timeless]
... we need to remove a couple of UCs
22:46:59 [timeless]
... they aren't going to survive
22:47:02 [timeless]
... they won't get implemented
22:47:08 [timeless]
... the editors who've been working on this
22:47:13 [timeless]
... this is their first experience working in w3c
22:47:23 [timeless]
... their first experience w/ objections and getting implementations
22:47:34 [jcraig]
22:47:35 [timeless]
... i need to help them understand it's unlikely to go forward on this
22:48:08 [timeless]
MikeSmith: there are 5 UCs
22:48:23 [cyns]
my comment was "would a better editor plus and extensibility model for that editor meet your needs?"
22:48:24 [timeless]
... 1 - DOM based editor
22:48:25 [timeless]
... 5 - Web based app providing an IME
22:48:33 [timeless]
... 2 - Suggest
22:48:44 [timeless]
... 3 - to turn off IME (gaming that doesn't require text input)
22:48:54 [timeless]
... 4 - informational, like Flash -- talking to IME
22:49:00 [timeless]
MikeSmith: i think we need to remove 1 and 5
22:49:08 [timeless]
.... and have spec focus on the middle 3
22:49:15 [timeless]
... can Travis speak to the doc?
22:49:19 [timeless]
Travis: there might be
22:49:26 [timeless]
... what you suggests sounds reasonable
22:49:30 [timeless]
... maybe we can add some
22:49:38 [timeless]
MikeSmith: and then see what survived in the spec
22:49:50 [timeless]
... we were focused on 5
22:49:52 [Travis]
22:49:54 [timeless]
ack chaals
22:50:04 [timeless]
chaals: we'd have a problem w/ removing 1 and 5
22:50:21 [timeless]
... comment was
22:50:33 [timeless]
... w/ IME spec, the goal is where the text gets dropped into whatever is taking text
22:50:35 [jcraig]
q+ to address use case 5
22:50:41 [timeless]
... once you've started entering text, what do you do w/ it then?
22:50:48 [timeless]
... afaict, the IME has no influence there
22:50:57 [timeless]
... not a problem solved/broken, that's after the IME is done
22:51:10 [timeless]
... i understand that concern, it's important for editing APIs/contentEditable
22:51:16 [timeless]
... i don't think it crosses over w/ the IME API itself
22:51:17 [timeless]
22:51:27 [timeless]
ack Travis
22:51:34 [timeless]
Travis: what we've heard from A11y
22:51:40 [timeless]
... this is really good feedback
22:51:45 [timeless]
... it may have landed on the wrong group
22:51:52 [timeless]
... MS is interested in working on contentEditable
22:52:01 [timeless]
... we've sent a couple of messages to the list to generate ideas
22:52:10 [timeless]
... cases that are broken, trying to work up a solution
22:52:12 [timeless]
ack jcraig
22:52:12 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to address use case 5
22:52:21 [timeless]
jcraig: re Travis
22:52:29 [timeless]
... Dominic and rich and ...
22:52:36 [timeless]
... contentEditable provides the equivalent of Wordpad
22:52:53 [timeless]
... not necessarily in a consistent form
22:52:57 [timeless]
... if it catches up
22:53:01 [timeless]
... there will always be a chase
22:53:15 [timeless]
... there will always be a legitimate UC for an engineer to decide contentEditable isn't good enough
22:53:30 [timeless]
... separate from IME, WebApps should consider direct access for text editing
22:53:36 [timeless]
... re overriding system IME
22:53:41 [timeless]
... and letting web app draw out completely
22:53:50 [timeless]
... i'd encourage you to allow it to
22:54:03 [ArtB]
-> UC #5 [custom-ime] Enable a Web application to provide its own IME
22:54:05 [timeless]
... allow the screen reader to access the ime
22:54:11 [timeless]
... indicate particular character
22:54:22 [timeless]
... chaals, i heard you say once a candidate is inserted
22:54:41 [timeless]
... but during an insertion, characters may be inserted/removed as you continue typing
22:54:48 [timeless]
... maybe not in DOM, but in native input
22:54:59 [timeless]
chaals: if you take over system ime, you'd probably want to support talking to system ime
22:55:02 [timeless]
... and that's important
22:55:05 [timeless]
... and we should be aware of
22:55:16 [timeless]
... people are going to give them this IME, and they're going to make stuff that's broken and crap
22:55:19 [timeless]
... that's what freedom is for
22:55:43 [timeless]
... i'd encourage you guys to comment on the IME stuff
22:55:48 [timeless]
... file comments, keep talking to us
22:55:55 [timeless]
... about things you see potential concerns
22:56:00 [timeless]
... we aren't very good at A11y
22:56:06 [timeless]
... we put on a good dinner
22:56:11 [timeless]
jcraig: thanks for having us here
22:56:25 [timeless]
chaals: the editing case, isn't just the IME
22:56:32 [timeless]
... it's a much more constrained set of issues
22:56:35 [timeless]
jcraig: the IME is a subset
22:56:41 [timeless]
... of the larger issue
22:56:53 [timeless]
Travis: in a lot of editors, we get a temporary text area, where you're doing text input
22:56:57 [timeless]
... and finessing things
22:57:04 [timeless]
... and then that text gets reintegrated
22:57:13 [timeless]
... and that squirreled away text editing system isn't accessible
22:57:29 [timeless]
jcraig: not to screen readers, and only to Zoom and IME / dictation, w/ severe hacks
22:57:37 [timeless]
chaals: if your custom IME were talking to your system IME
22:57:40 [MikeSmith]
22:57:44 [timeless]
... screen readers would be picking it up from the IME?
22:57:51 [timeless]
chaals: you'd have to implement this well
22:57:53 [timeless]
... not automatic
22:57:58 [timeless]
jcraig: another example
22:58:03 [timeless]
... customized UI, visual UI
22:58:09 [timeless]
... vision impairments
22:58:20 [timeless]
... turn it off completely, that's something the UA should override
22:58:26 [timeless]
... no you can't render you own ime
22:58:37 [timeless]
Dominic: i don't want to take the view that we shouldn't be doing this because it's incomplete
22:58:41 [timeless]
... one potential step forward
22:58:52 [timeless]
... if we wanted to get as much through for the IME UC
22:58:57 [jcraig]
s/should override/should be able to override/
22:59:40 [timeless]
... take setCurrentRectangle
22:59:46 [jcraig]
s/vision impairments/vision impairments or cognitive impairments/
22:59:49 [timeless]
... it's minimally defined to provide the minimal needed for an IME
22:59:56 [timeless]
... let's define this in a more comprehensive way
23:00:00 [timeless]
... to provide info about the caret
23:00:04 [timeless]
... that an a11y agent would need
23:00:08 [timeless]
... we know a11y apis need this
23:00:12 [timeless]
... rather than a rectangle
23:00:22 [timeless]
... we need more when it's a selection
23:00:29 [timeless]
... could we extend the api a bit
23:00:34 [timeless]
chaals: we've run out of time
23:00:38 [timeless]
... thank you very much
23:00:46 [timeless]
... we encourage you to keep on providing comments
23:00:58 [timeless]
... i heard a requirement that the user must be able to turn off the app provided IME
23:01:02 [timeless]
... an a11y requirement
23:01:09 [timeless]
jcraig: i'd have to look, but that seems likely
23:01:17 [timeless]
chaals: we should anticipate
23:01:32 [timeless]
giving people freedom to do crazy stuff
23:01:36 [timeless]
s/giving/... giving/
23:01:40 [timeless]
... they're likely to create problems
23:01:46 [timeless]
... "if you do this, the world will break"
23:01:51 [timeless]
... "so please don't"
23:01:57 [timeless]
... "here's the things it'd be helpful to avoid"
23:03:56 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
23:03:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
23:07:33 [Zakim]
23:12:05 [timeless]
topic: File API
23:12:13 [timeless]
arun: Arun, your friendly File API editor
23:12:21 [timeless]
... perhaps some things we should talk about in this meeting
23:12:25 [ArtB]
-> File API ED
23:12:26 [timeless]
... what it would take to get File API to LC
23:12:35 [timeless]
... there's also a Mozilla proposal for a File System API
23:12:38 [timeless]
... it went out this morning
23:12:41 [ArtB]
-> File API Bugs
23:12:43 [timeless]
... you can blame sicking for that
23:12:51 [timeless]
... there are 3 problems w/ the File API
23:13:08 [timeless]
... 1. thinking of the File API w/ new tech, like Futures
23:13:13 [timeless]
... that shouldn't be gating to LC
23:13:19 [timeless]
... we could do that in another draft
23:13:28 [timeless]
... perhaps the File object itself works in the futures API model
23:13:37 [timeless]
... that may be a candidate for another draft
23:13:45 [timeless]
... there are already things shipping with this
23:13:56 [timeless]
... 2. read chaining
23:13:58 [timeless]
... adrianba isn't here
23:14:05 [timeless]
... if you spawn multiple reads off a load event
23:14:13 [timeless]
... the firing of a loadend event can confuse the read
23:14:17 [timeless]
... i'm willing to look at that
23:14:23 [timeless]
... i think it's fairly simple to get it right
23:14:35 [timeless]
... - how to suppress loadend
23:14:38 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
23:14:41 [timeless]
... 3. blob urls are used across the platform
23:14:44 [timeless]
... for everything
23:14:53 [timeless]
... blob url lifetime issues aren't nailed down
23:15:05 [timeless]
... ms impl has slightly different syntax to automatically revoke blob urls
23:15:10 [timeless]
... to simplify developer's code
23:15:21 [timeless]
... so developers don't have to call revoke()
23:15:28 [timeless]
... the current proposal doesn't thrill anyone
23:15:36 [timeless]
... -- those are the three gating factors
23:15:38 [timeless]
... before LC
23:15:46 [timeless]
... questions?
23:15:52 [timeless]
[ silence ]
23:15:59 [timeless]
sicking: we sent well ahead of time this morning
23:16:02 [timeless]
... an email to the ML
23:16:04 [timeless]
[ laughter ]
23:16:11 [timeless]
sicking: which may surprise all of ou
23:16:14 [timeless]
23:16:24 [timeless]
... that we've reconsidered our staunch disapproval of file system apis
23:16:30 [timeless]
... mozilla has always said no
23:16:36 [timeless]
... arguing Indexed DB solves existing UCs
23:16:42 [timeless]
... but others can be solved other ways
23:16:44 [timeless]
... two things
23:16:48 [MarkS]
MarkS has joined #webapps
23:16:50 [ArtB]
-> Mozilla's 25-Apr-2013 File API proposal
23:16:52 [timeless]
... 1. no one has solved these things that indexed db can't solve
23:17:00 [timeless]
... -- two things
23:17:07 [ArtB]
s/File API/File system API/
23:17:14 [timeless]
... -- file system url has lots of nice properties
23:17:25 [timeless]
... -- you know which url you can access directly from the file system
23:17:33 [timeless]
... -- file system api supports in place editing
23:17:39 [timeless]
... -- predictable and persistent
23:17:53 [timeless]
... we have support for indexed DB
23:17:58 [timeless]
... but it hasn't gotten traction
23:18:02 [timeless]
... i wrote a blog about file system
23:18:13 [timeless]
... saying what it supports, what you think it does, but actually doesn't
23:18:18 [timeless]
... we got 3 pieces of feedback
23:18:25 [timeless]
... file systems as a concept is nice and understandable thing
23:18:34 [timeless]
... nice for web to have such an api
23:18:38 [timeless]
... easier to use than indexed db
23:18:46 [timeless]
... second: file system urls are nice
23:18:52 [timeless]
... third: we don't really like the current file system
23:18:59 [timeless]
... so we took another file system we already had
23:19:06 [timeless]
... we had discussions w/ people months ago
23:19:13 [timeless]
... which led to a counter proposal from apple
23:19:21 [timeless]
... and some people from mozilla and apple met up
23:19:25 [timeless]
... which led to this proposal
23:19:33 [timeless]
... no one has committed to implementing this proposal
23:19:37 [timeless]
... it's a few hours old
23:19:45 [timeless]
... we're interested in implementing it, if others are interested
23:19:53 [timeless]
... alternatively, we could try to solve these UCs using indexed db
23:19:56 [timeless]
... so far no one has
23:20:02 [timeless]
... interested in hearing what other people are thinking
23:20:05 [timeless]
... in particular apple
23:20:11 [timeless]
chaals: welcome to the 21st century
23:20:26 [timeless]
Travis: is this virtualized or real?
23:20:39 [timeless]
sicking: exactly the feature set that google is exposing to web pages
23:20:43 [timeless]
... it's a sandbox
23:20:56 [timeless]
... we wouldn't recommend any implementations implement on top of a file system
23:21:06 [timeless]
... we're intending to implement on top of a database
23:21:10 [timeless]
... possibly indexed db
23:21:19 [timeless]
... not intended to be mapped onto the underlying file system
23:21:31 [timeless]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
23:21:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay, Aaron_Colwell
23:21:51 [chaals]
23:21:58 [timeless]
Travis: what's the security boundary of the sandbox?
23:22:03 [timeless]
... who can access it?
23:22:10 [timeless]
... can you get file handles and share them through postMessage?
23:22:20 [timeless]
sicking: the intent is it's the same as indexed DB
23:22:28 [timeless]
... each origin has its own set of databases
23:22:36 [timeless]
... each origin has its own file system
23:22:41 [timeless]
... you can get file objects from the file system
23:22:46 [timeless]
... you could postMessage them
23:22:50 [timeless]
... file handle represents an open file
23:22:57 [timeless]
... we haven't proposed that you could pass those
23:23:00 [timeless]
... in theory, it might be possible
23:23:04 [timeless]
... something we could look at
23:23:10 [timeless]
... but not a pillar of this proposal
23:23:11 [timeless]
23:23:12 [timeless]
ack chaals
23:23:22 [timeless]
chaals: you don't allow sharing a real file between an app and another app
23:23:27 [timeless]
... or not?
23:23:34 [timeless]
sicking: that's what i'm saying
23:23:38 [timeless]
chaals: i take back what i'm saying
23:23:42 [timeless]
darobin: in sicking 's defense
23:23:48 [timeless]
... if there's a standardized way of storing content
23:23:57 [timeless]
... it means another app could talk to the UA
23:24:09 [timeless]
... so you could have a system wide way of an app discovering others files
23:24:18 [timeless]
chaals: if you had an OS not entirely based on your browser
23:24:26 [timeless]
... most of your apps couldn't share the files w/ the file system api
23:24:34 [timeless]
... that seems like you're losing a lot of the value of a file system
23:24:38 [timeless]
... this is just indexed db?
23:24:41 [timeless]
sicking: this is just indexed db
23:24:52 [timeless]
... many ways to envision the sharing between the file system api and the user
23:25:03 [bryan]
23:25:11 [timeless]
... in firefox os, we're doing something which lets the web page get access to the user's pictures folder
23:25:19 [timeless]
... and then it's mapped to the backend filesystem
23:25:24 [timeless]
... we have a way of addressing security
23:25:30 [timeless]
... not necessarily a good way
23:25:40 [timeless]
... we have a crappy solution involving signing and unwebby things
23:25:40 [chaals]
23:25:44 [timeless]
... it's what google tried to do
23:25:55 [timeless]
... where you guys were trying to back the sandbox file system and had issues
23:26:04 [timeless]
EricU: our sandbox file system, the files are backed by real files
23:26:10 [timeless]
... the directories are backed by a database
23:26:14 [timeless]
... the filenames are obfuscated
23:26:25 [timeless]
... flie extensions don't bleed to the file system
23:26:34 [timeless]
... the file system api allows you to get access to photos
23:26:36 [arun]
23:26:43 [timeless]
... it's a great way to write web apps to access those things
23:26:51 [timeless]
... but it isn't something you want to expose to the drive by web
23:27:03 [timeless]
... you don't want a web page to write an executable to the photos directory
23:27:07 [timeless]
... we don't have a security solution
23:27:19 [timeless]
... we only allow for apps and extensions, presumably installed w/ informed consent
23:27:20 [timeless]
ack bryan
23:27:23 [timeless]
bryan: two suggestions
23:27:36 [timeless]
... have you considered, certainly domain-specific, origin-specific
23:27:44 [timeless]
... have you considered making a non-private portion
23:27:48 [timeless]
... for low risk data?
23:27:54 [timeless]
... and let the app decide what it wants to put there
23:28:06 [sicking]
23:28:14 [chaals]
q+ robin
23:28:15 [timeless]
q+ bryan
23:28:23 [timeless]
sicking: we're looking at data sharing between apps
23:28:28 [timeless]
... and presumably something between web pages
23:28:34 [timeless]
... i don't think that's limited to file systems
23:28:38 [timeless]
... data sharing between apps
23:28:48 [timeless]
... is an interesting question, but orthogonal
23:28:50 [timeless]
ack bryan
23:28:58 [timeless]
bryan: the sharing of a file handle between applications
23:29:03 [timeless]
... i want to give this only application
23:29:05 [timeless]
sicking: same answer
23:29:11 [timeless]
ack chaals
23:29:13 [sicking]
23:29:29 [timeless]
chaals: take your point about exposing random access files to drive by web
23:29:32 [timeless]
... want to be careful
23:29:35 [timeless]
... but w/ those provisos
23:29:37 [bryan]
it would be good to provide an option to create an open/shareable file space, or sharing of file handle with a specific app
23:29:40 [timeless]
... a file system that doesn't let you use files
23:29:46 [timeless]
... of which there are a few deployed around the world
23:29:50 [timeless]
... is kind of missing something
23:29:58 [timeless]
sicking: looking forward to your counterproposal
23:30:04 [timeless]
chaals: opera sent it 6 years ago
23:30:14 [timeless]
sicking: it didn't get traction for a reason
23:30:19 [timeless]
chaals: it's like google's proposal
23:30:26 [timeless]
... for some value of trust, you can get at the file system
23:30:34 [timeless]
arun: it's different
23:30:37 [timeless]
chaals: it's 3 years older
23:30:42 [timeless]
23:30:51 [timeless]
darobin: designing a file system isn't rocket sciense
23:31:02 [timeless]
23:31:07 [timeless]
... it's security/sharing that's the problem
23:31:18 [timeless]
... sharing between apps
23:31:22 [timeless]
... sharing between web sites
23:31:29 [timeless]
... it's the super cookie from hell
23:31:37 [timeless]
... nothing prevents this api from accessing a real file system
23:31:42 [timeless]
... but the default should be virtual
23:31:54 [timeless]
... accessing the real/more should be outside for later
23:32:04 [timeless]
chaals: you can build this on top of a real file system
23:32:11 [timeless]
darobin: when we played with ideas like this in dap
23:32:15 [timeless]
... the basic api was virtualized
23:32:21 [timeless]
... and another api exposed the real file system
23:32:26 [timeless]
... which would allow whatever
23:32:29 [timeless]
ack arun
23:32:36 [timeless]
arun: can i go back and talk about file api
23:32:40 [timeless]
... adrianba returned
23:33:22 [timeless]
[off the record ]
23:34:51 [darobin]
23:35:23 [timeless]
arun: the hard work is to find a technical solution for blob-uri lifetime management
23:35:32 [timeless]
... it might take ages
23:35:35 [timeless]
ArtB: ages is?
23:35:38 [timeless]
arun: not very long
23:35:41 [timeless]
sicking: in geological times
23:35:59 [timeless]
adrianba: there's a minor issue w/ events that get fired for rechaining
23:36:17 [timeless]
... the lifetime of blogs and revoking them is something we've talked about for a pretty long time
23:36:21 [timeless]
... lots of nuance to it
23:36:32 [timeless]
... part of the issue to resolve is what degree of interop do we need?
23:36:35 [timeless]
... how similar do we have to be
23:36:39 [timeless]
... if we have to be identical
23:36:44 [timeless]
... we probably can't solve it
23:36:51 [timeless]
... people's networks stacks work differently
23:36:58 [timeless]
... did you talk about same origin?
23:37:00 [timeless]
arun: no
23:37:13 [timeless]
adrianba: one of the properties of a blob uri created through createObjectURL()
23:37:25 [timeless]
... is that you can only dereference it in the same-origin
23:37:30 [timeless]
... there's been a request to relax it
23:37:39 [timeless]
... relying on the fact that the string itself shouldn't be guessable
23:37:48 [timeless]
... it would have to be passed, it wouldn't be predictable
23:37:58 [timeless]
... i'm open to exploring this possibility
23:38:10 [timeless]
... but in discussions we've had today
23:38:18 [timeless]
... we've always parked the discussion wrt origin
23:38:31 [timeless]
... we've always had this property that they had an origin constraint
23:38:42 [timeless]
... relaxing it isn't something i'd want to do lightly
23:38:50 [timeless]
... and i think we've made implementation optimizations
23:38:56 [timeless]
... removing it from the spec is easy
23:39:03 [timeless]
... changing our implementation is much more work
23:39:12 [timeless]
... my fear is we make interop much worse for a period of time
23:39:15 [timeless]
... it might be an IE thing
23:39:24 [timeless]
... but we've been working on it for a while, but that's been in the spec for a long time
23:39:27 [timeless]
... changing it before LC
23:39:32 [timeless]
... hopefully the final LC
23:39:42 [timeless]
arun: right now, there's no change made to the origin policy
23:39:53 [timeless]
... i think most UCs can be addressed w/o relaxing that
23:40:03 [timeless]
... so unless someone has a strong reason, i see no reason to change that
23:40:13 [timeless]
... and if that helps get to interop, that's fine
23:40:26 [timeless]
sicking: i'm a little split
23:40:28 [timeless]
... on one hand
23:40:38 [timeless]
.... i have been convinced it's a silly restriction
23:40:39 [timeless]
... but
23:40:48 [timeless]
... this is essentially adding a new feature
23:40:55 [timeless]
... anytime you add a new feature, it decreases interop
23:41:01 [timeless]
... it's a feature that's harder to test for
23:41:08 [timeless]
... it seems like a feature we can live w/o for v1
23:41:13 [timeless]
... it's a scary thing to add for v2
23:41:17 [timeless]
... since it's relaxing for security
23:41:22 [timeless]
... but it's probably fine
23:41:38 [timeless]
... but if some site announces to the world any blob they generate
23:41:41 [timeless]
... and we relax
23:41:45 [timeless]
... but it's probably fine
23:41:48 [timeless]
... to do for a second version
23:42:14 [timeless]
... on File System
23:42:15 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
23:42:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
23:42:18 [timeless]
... mozilla's interested in implementing
23:42:42 [timeless]
EricU: i certainly agree with mozilla's arguments on the file system
23:42:48 [chaals]
zakim, this meeting spans midnight
23:42:48 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight', chaals
23:42:49 [timeless]
... they're familiar since i said them three years ago
23:42:55 [timeless]
... but we've already got one
23:42:59 [timeless]
... it was designed by committee
23:43:02 [timeless]
... we've already got it
23:43:06 [timeless]
... we've already shipped it
23:43:09 [timeless]
... people are using it
23:43:13 [timeless]
... especially in our apps
23:43:13 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'this call spans midnight', Yves. Try /msg RRSAgent help
23:43:16 [timeless]
... but also in web pages
23:43:25 [timeless]
... it doesn't use futures
23:43:35 [timeless]
... were i to design it today, it would probably look closer to sicking 's
23:43:40 [timeless]
... locking is very nice
23:43:45 [timeless]
... we don't have locking or flush
23:43:54 [timeless]
... but we didn't want to add more w/o interest in implementing
23:44:03 [timeless]
... we think it's good for the web to have a standard api
23:44:13 [timeless]
... and we want something implemented in all browsers
23:44:17 [chaals]
rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
23:44:18 [timeless]
... but we already implemented one
23:44:26 [timeless]
... if mozilla and others implement
23:44:33 [timeless]
... i'd expect we'll implement
23:44:37 [timeless]
... but we'd be last
23:44:40 [timeless]
chaals: no, we're behind you
23:44:50 [timeless]
hober: similar thing
23:44:56 [JaeChung]
JaeChung has joined #webapps
23:44:57 [timeless]
... you posted to the mailing list a couple of hours ago
23:45:04 [timeless]
... i'll commit to expressing an opinion soon
23:45:11 [timeless]
chaals: meetings with futures implemented
23:45:18 [timeless]
hober: yes, i'm returning a DOMFuture
23:45:24 [timeless]
chaals: arun thinks we're at a wrap
23:45:41 [timeless]
ArtB: anyone think we should move everything to futureS?
23:45:44 [timeless]
23:45:48 [timeless]
... i'm not hearing support
23:45:57 [timeless]
arun: i'm willing to do a separate draft for Futures
23:46:00 [timeless]
... to not cramp this
23:46:09 [timeless]
ArtB: how much more hashing out do you need?
23:46:17 [timeless]
arun: rechaining is pretty straightforward
23:46:28 [timeless]
... tricky, but not as hard as bloburi
23:46:36 [timeless]
... bloburi, i'll have to talk more
23:46:41 [timeless]
adrianba: we'll have to talk more
23:46:45 [timeless]
ArtB: how long?
23:46:51 [timeless]
arun: i have a proposal, i'd like to see if it's ok
23:46:57 [timeless]
... if i get buy in, it won't take long
23:47:03 [timeless]
... but that hasn't historically happened
23:47:07 [timeless]
ArtB: have you put it to the list?
23:47:11 [timeless]
arun: not yet
23:47:39 [timeless]
chaals: we've run out of coffee
23:47:59 [chaals]
heycam, can you call in for 10 min?
23:48:05 [heycam]
23:48:12 [timeless]
... i'd suggest we get heycam in for a update w/ WebIDL
23:48:18 [chaals]
zakim, code
23:48:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', chaals
23:48:29 [heycam]
Zakim, code?
23:48:29 [Zakim]
the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, heycam
23:48:47 [timeless]
ArtB: wonsuk, can we do XHR and Progress to tomorrow?
23:48:50 [timeless]
wonsuk: ok
23:48:57 [timeless]
chaals: Progress has been pushed off until tomorrow
23:49:04 [timeless]
... we'll implement it with futures
23:49:31 [Zakim]
23:49:34 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
23:49:34 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
23:49:49 [timeless]
Topic: WebIDL
23:49:55 [timeless]
chaals: heycam, welcome to webapps
23:49:59 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:49:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
23:50:24 [timeless]
heycam: i haven't done much on WebIDL in the last couple of months
23:50:42 [timeless]
... i've got a thousand unread emails in the folder
23:50:50 [timeless]
present+ Cameron_McCormack_(heycam)
23:50:58 [timeless]
... i don't think there's much to get v1
23:51:03 [timeless]
... with its issues closed
23:51:05 [Travis]
23:51:08 [timeless]
... i split the spec into v1 and v2
23:51:10 [timeless]
q- robin
23:51:17 [timeless]
23:51:21 [timeless]
23:51:27 [timeless]
23:51:35 [timeless]
... v2 was for new features
23:51:47 [timeless]
... i recon it'd only take a few weeks to get v1 ready for republication again
23:51:56 [timeless]
... once i've closed off all the issues
23:52:10 [timeless]
chaals: any likelihood of having a couple of weeks to do solid work
23:52:15 [timeless]
... in the next six months
23:52:28 [timeless]
heycam: i kind of plan to get back to solving some of these issues starting in a few weeks
23:52:36 [timeless]
... kinda scary after a few months of inaction
23:52:41 [timeless]
... starting say mid-May
23:52:54 [timeless]
... saying this puts more pressure on me
23:52:57 [timeless]
chaals: so, in 2 weeks
23:53:00 [timeless]
... you start work
23:53:09 [timeless]
... and end of May, i visit you
23:53:26 [timeless]
heycam: i'd like to look at the ML to see what needs to be done
23:53:38 [timeless]
... on the ML, there's been a lot of discussion of broader issues of IDL languages
23:53:43 [timeless]
... those things don't need to be solved immediately
23:53:45 [timeless]
... for v1
23:53:52 [timeless]
... those are conversations i've been ignoring recently
23:54:01 [timeless]
... i think they shouldn't hold up progress on WebIDL
23:54:07 [timeless]
... but in the future, we may look at them
23:54:26 [timeless]
chaals: but you're reasonably optimistic that before the end of June that we could have this kicking along and getting to REC
23:54:55 [timeless]
... i'm imagining a LC in late May (early July)
23:55:03 [timeless]
s/(early July)//
23:55:11 [timeless]
... and that draft is likely to be pretty solid, and don
23:55:23 [timeless]
... from there, we aren't expecting piles of changes
23:55:30 [timeless]
heycam: the spec, what's on TR
23:55:52 [timeless]
... implementations have been improved since it was published
23:56:00 [timeless]
... and have sent feedback
23:56:14 [timeless]
... whether there are other implementations around to help it go past CR
23:56:20 [timeless]
... i imagine a LC and then CR
23:56:30 [timeless]
... i'm wondering if there are enough implementations to progress the spec
23:56:34 [timeless]
... and also test suites
23:56:49 [timeless]
chaals: a key question is
23:56:54 [timeless]
... what's an implementation of WebIDL?
23:56:59 [timeless]
... lots of ways you can use it
23:57:07 [timeless]
... you can put it in browsers
23:57:20 [timeless]
... but other kinds of implementations are potential more interesting than having it in a browser
23:57:30 [timeless]
heycam: we talked about how to come up w/ a test suite
23:57:43 [timeless]
... a tentative plan was to select features from specifications that are relatively stable
23:57:50 [timeless]
... which covers the features of WebIDL
23:57:58 [timeless]
... and write tests for the WebIDL parts of those
23:58:08 [timeless]
... Node.type and test if it's a number in js
23:58:14 [timeless]
... i'm not sure if any work was done on that
23:58:19 [timeless]
... not sure if tests were written
23:58:27 [timeless]
... i know Travis had his hand up
23:58:29 [chaals]
q+ travis
23:58:52 [chaals]
ack tra
23:58:52 [timeless]
heycam: our goal for getting to PR
23:59:04 [timeless]
... is to demonstrate two interoperable implementations
23:59:11 [timeless]
chaals: to convince the director that this works interoperably
23:59:27 [timeless]
Travis: to convince the director, we convince him that there are two implementations that meet this
23:59:31 [timeless]
... we need a test suite
23:59:34 [plh]
23:59:36 [timeless]
... i as test XX
23:59:41 [timeless]
... compose a test suite
23:59:44 [timeless]
... to demonstrate
23:59:51 [timeless]
... pieces from various specs
23:59:57 [timeless]
... snippets from various specs
00:00:01 [timeless]
... two aspects
00:00:05 [timeless]
... does a UA support webIDL
00:00:12 [chaals]
q+ glenn
00:00:12 [timeless]
... and do blocks in specs conform
00:00:21 [timeless]
... the test suite has code to test webidl blocks
00:00:24 [timeless]
... there's a webidl harness
00:00:39 [timeless]
... and there's tests to confirm that valid input produces good output
00:00:49 [timeless]
... and to confirm that invalid input produces bad output
00:00:54 [timeless]
... we don't have tests against browsers
00:01:02 [timeless]
... i unfortunately have made as much progress as you
00:01:06 [timeless]
ack plh
00:01:18 [timeless]
plh: i thought idlharness.js could prove that all the things in the spec are well implemented in UAs
00:01:20 [timeless]
heycam: yes
00:01:24 [timeless]
plh: the problem w/ that so far
00:01:30 [timeless]
... is that idlharness isn't complete
00:01:36 [timeless]
... darobin wrote an updated parser for WebIDL
00:01:46 [timeless]
... not sure how much changes by heycam affect that
00:01:57 [timeless]
... but we don't have something that takes the output of the parser to generate tests
00:02:08 [timeless]
... as part of the testing effort mentioned in HTML F2F
00:02:17 [timeless]
... we want to develop infrastructure
00:02:24 [timeless]
... we have an item to finish idlharness
00:02:28 [timeless]
... deadline was before end of year
00:02:48 [timeless]
heycam: what sort of things does it test currently?
00:02:58 [timeless]
plh: idlharness will take some webidl
00:03:03 [timeless]
... and generate testharness.js
00:03:06 [timeless]
... based on it
00:03:11 [timeless]
... in navigation timing test suite
00:03:16 [timeless]
... you'll see idlharness
00:03:23 [timeless]
... it takes the webidl from navigation timing
00:03:28 [timeless]
... and generates js based on that
00:03:30 [smaug] seems to use idlharness.js
00:03:50 [timeless]
... to make sure the assumptions we can make based on the webidl
00:04:03 [timeless]
heycam: it can't rely on functionality of particular methods
00:04:04 [timeless]
plh: i don't know
00:04:22 [timeless]
heycam: what coverage do we get from that idl harness?
00:04:30 [timeless]
... that means we don't have to write explicit tests
00:04:37 [timeless]
... it could generate tests for some things
00:04:41 [timeless]
... but for some functionality
00:04:50 [timeless]
... you'd need to do by hand, based on what the methods/properties do
00:05:00 [timeless]
... to see if they convert arguments correctly
00:05:06 [timeless]
darobin: we can't cover everything
00:05:12 [timeless]
... it tests a lot of interesting things
00:05:15 [timeless]
... it catches bugs
00:05:20 [timeless]
... there isn't a single implementation that passes
00:05:24 [timeless]
... it uses the updated parser
00:05:26 [chaals]
00:05:29 [timeless]
... i gets up to date web idl
00:05:36 [timeless]
... a few things we haven't implemented support for yet
00:05:40 [arun]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
00:05:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay, Aaron_Colwell, heycam
00:05:44 [timeless]
... some things you can't know w/o reaching inside the implementation
00:05:52 [timeless]
... you can test everything that's surfaced
00:06:04 [timeless]
heycam: would you want to use the output of this as the basis of the browser test suite?
00:06:05 [timeless]
darobin: yes
00:06:09 [timeless]
ack glenn_
00:06:14 [timeless]
glenn_: in editing of CSS OM
00:06:19 [timeless]
... i created a preprocessor that
00:06:25 [timeless]
... allows taking webidl definitions of apis
00:06:30 [timeless]
... putting them in separate idl files
00:06:37 [timeless]
... i use darobin 's earlier webidl parser
00:06:44 [timeless]
... which validates them according to that syntax
00:06:52 [timeless]
... and inserts them into an html file
00:07:05 [timeless]
... that creates the analis version of the document
00:07:21 [timeless]
... and for tests of CSS OM, we've written tests that test what's required by the webidl
00:07:24 [timeless]
... two things
00:07:35 [timeless]
... 1. verify validity of webidl used in the spec
00:07:46 [timeless]
... 2. verify implementation of things using it
00:07:48 [timeless]
heycam: yes
00:08:35 [timeless]
00:08:40 [Zakim]
00:08:44 [timeless]
chaals: can't we use the validator as an implementation?
00:08:46 [timeless]
plh: that's possible
00:08:57 [timeless]
chaals: we need to show that this stuff actually works
00:09:02 [timeless]
... and is widely implemented
00:09:15 [timeless]
... if the group looks at this stuff and says it's implemented all over this place, and it works
00:09:23 [timeless]
... then for some definition, it's considered interoperability.
00:09:32 [timeless]
... open question if we let that go as v1
00:09:35 [darobin]
[idlharness.js is here:]
00:09:35 [timeless]
... to get it out the door
00:09:40 [timeless]
... and fix bugs we find later
00:10:00 [timeless]
s|[idlharness.js is here:">]|-> idlharness.js|
00:10:10 [timeless]
ArtB: in terms of validators, don't we have two?
00:10:13 [timeless]
... darobin 's and dom's?
00:10:36 [timeless]
sicking: we have our own webidl parser
00:10:44 [timeless]
Travis: IE has one too
00:10:46 [timeless]
krisk: i concur
00:11:10 [timeless]
ArtB: can you look at the exit criteria and see if we've met it with these imeplementations
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plh: two parts
00:11:15 [timeless]
... one is syntax
00:11:18 [timeless]
... one is bindings
00:11:26 [timeless]
... IE+Mozilla can convince "yes we have"
00:11:47 [timeless]
... but you may not convince the Director that you have the ES bindings write
00:11:51 [timeless]
00:12:03 [timeless]
Travis: idl harness takes webidl syntax as input
00:12:08 [timeless]
... and the output is testcases
00:12:19 [Zakim]
00:12:19 [timeless]
... does it convert null into "null"
00:12:29 [plh]
00:12:32 [darobin]
[heycam: here's an example]
00:12:57 [Zakim]
00:13:20 [smaug]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
00:13:20 [Zakim]
+Olli_Pettay; got it
00:13:53 [timeless]
plh: it generates tests based on webidl
00:13:56 [timeless]
... is it a function
00:14:10 [timeless]
sicking: you can't possibly write tests that call when you call X and it expects a string
00:14:25 [timeless]
... that it behaves the same way with "foo", {valueOf:function(){return "foo"}
00:14:32 [timeless]
... those can't be tested automatically
00:14:41 [timeless]
plh: you can at least check the signature
00:15:16 [timeless]
ArtB: look at Web Storage
00:15:28 [timeless]
... what does Storage.clear() do for a test
00:15:39 [JaeChung]
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00:15:41 [timeless]
sicking: do you ensure that clear("xxxx") behaves the same as clear() ?
00:16:06 [timeless]
... or removeItem("42") behaves the same as removeItem(41+1)
00:16:32 [timeless]
plh: we may have to test some manually
00:16:42 [timeless]
... the goal is to prove this construction is properly implemented
00:16:53 [timeless]
sicking: if we can for each webidl construct
00:17:00 [timeless]
... two implementation
00:17:08 [timeless]
... that all properties are present
00:17:18 [timeless]
... but we'd have to hand write coercion testing
00:17:34 [timeless]
Travis: i think there will be a small change in the testing plan
00:17:38 [timeless]
... the harness can test some pieces
00:19:33 [timeless]
heycam: getAttribute make it easy to write some tests
00:19:41 [timeless]
... but you can't automatically generate
00:19:48 [timeless]
... but the right plan is
00:19:59 [timeless]
... identify testable w/ JS bindings
00:20:09 [timeless]
... identify which things idlharness can cover
00:20:12 [timeless]
.. and then write the less
00:20:20 [timeless]
chaals: and Travis, you'll get it by TPAC?
00:20:28 [timeless]
Travis: i'll coordinate w/ darobin and plh
00:20:41 [timeless]
... we'll work on what additional functionality needs to be put into the harness
00:20:46 [timeless]
chaals: and then work and ship it
00:20:58 [timeless]
Topic: Charter Discussion
00:21:26 [timeless]
s/Topic: Charter Discussion//
00:21:30 [timeless]
chaals: thanks heycam
00:21:36 [Zakim]
00:21:48 [timeless]
RRSAgent, make minutes
00:21:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
00:22:17 [timeless]
[ Adjourned until tomorrow ]
00:22:18 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
00:22:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
00:23:10 [ArtB]
zakim, who's here?
00:23:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay
00:23:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JaeChung, yosuke_, sicking, shepazu, lyle, JonathanJ, krijnh, jeffh, abarth, wseltzer, adrianba, alecf, krisk, plh, garykac, Dashiva, arun, EricU, jsbell, Travis,
00:23:11 [Zakim]
... acolwell, tlr, Jungkee, yosuke, Bin_Hu, eliot, bryan, darobin, wonsuk
00:23:25 [Zakim]
00:23:32 [smaug]
it is only 3:23am
00:23:44 [Zakim]
00:23:45 [Zakim]
RWC_WAF(WAF2F)12:00PM has ended
00:23:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were Olli_Pettay, Ms2ger, Paypal, Marcos, Aaron_Colwell, heycam
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15:14:24 [hallvord_]
isn't there a meeting going on? Seems very quiet here..
15:15:41 [jgraham]
hallvord_: I think you are in the wrong timezone?
15:16:51 [hallvord_]
hm... too early, for once?
15:16:56 [jgraham]
(I think it is like 8am there?)
15:19:36 [hallvord_]
you are so right. I'll have time for cooking without distractions, then
15:35:13 [tantek]
yes, wait about half an hour :)
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15:36:15 [Ms2ger]
Will sicking be on time today?
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15:37:03 [tantek]
Ms2ger - I for one and am already running late. ETA 09:45-0700
15:37:19 [Ms2ger]
Zakim, list
15:37:19 [Zakim]
I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM, Team_(comm)15:32Z active
15:37:20 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are XML_SchemaWG()11:00AM, SW_HCLS(TERM)11:00AM, SW_RDFWG(CHAIRS)11:00AM
15:40:10 [Ms2ger]
RRSAgent, pointer
15:40:10 [RRSAgent]
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15:56:17 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, bye
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
I see 17 open action items saved in :
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow work with Chaals on a call for editor help for DOM4 [1]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: travis resolve last bug for DOM P&S and notify Art so a CfC for LC can be started [2]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow start a CfC to move Java bindinings for WebIDL to WG Note [3]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow ask Vincent about next step for PointerLock (e.g. what needs to be done to go LC) [4]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow ask Kinuko about status and plans for Quota Mangement API [5]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow ask Lachlan if he has some impl data re Selectors API v2 [6]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow ask Tina to remove the IE column from the SSE implementation report [7]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow start a CfC for FPWD of UI Events (and make sure it has a Bugzilla component) [8]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow work with Alex and Chaals re interop data for Web Messaging [9]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chaals to make a CfC for joint work with sysapps on webapp manifests [10]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: eliot update IDB LC comment tracking document to replace "TBD" with something more descriptive [11]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow update Pubstatus of D3E to reflect Gary's participation in Editing and Testing [12]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish FPWD of Custom Elements [13]
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recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow start CfC for FPWD of HTML Imports [14]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish new WD of the Web Components Explainer [15]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: smith ask the IME Editors to remove Canvas examples (e.g. images) [16]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael[tm] Smith to take back PFWG feedback to the IME API editor (Kochi) and propose we excise the mentions of DOM-based editor use-case in the use-case document, and the specific mentions of <canvas> in the actual spec [17]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
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