14:57:59 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:57:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-html-a11y-irc
14:58:01 RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:01 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:58:03 Zakim, this will be 2119
14:58:03 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 58 minutes ago
14:58:04 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:58:04 Date: 18 April 2013
14:58:58 David_ has joined #html-a11y
14:59:00 zakim, this is 2119
14:59:02 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
14:59:14 +Mark_Sadecki
15:00:12 darobin has joined #html-a11y
15:01:20 +Lisa_Seeman
15:01:39 +[IPcaller]
15:01:46 zakim, [ipcaller is me
15:01:46 +chaals; got it
15:01:56 Steve has joined #html-a11y
15:02:03 +??P22
15:02:15 zakim, ?P22 is Janina
15:02:15 sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '?P22'
15:02:37 zakim, ??P22 is Janina
15:02:37 +Janina; got it
15:03:02 zakim, who is here?
15:03:02 On the phone I see David_MacDonald, Cooper, Mark_Sadecki, Lisa_Seeman, chaals, Janina
15:03:04 On IRC I see Steve, darobin, David_, Zakim, RRSAgent, chaals, MarkS, davidb, janina, st, IanPouncey, MichaelC, hober, trackbot
15:03:24 zakim, who is making noise?
15:03:34 chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Lisa_Seeman (85%), Cooper (5%)
15:03:53 zakim, chaals is probably steve
15:03:53 +steve?; got it
15:04:11 zakim, Lisa_Seeman is really me
15:04:11 +chaals; got it
15:04:27 zakim, who is making noise?
15:04:39 chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: steve? (11%), Mark_Sadecki (10%), chaals (30%), Cooper (51%)
15:04:46 +John_Foliot
15:04:46 -John_Foliot
15:04:53 zakim, steve is Steve
15:04:53 +Steve; got it
15:05:02 zakim, who is making noise?
15:05:04 +John_Foliot
15:05:13 chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Steve (68%), Cooper (4%), ??P30 (32%)
15:05:52 zakim, agenda?
15:05:52 I see nothing on the agenda
15:06:10 agenda+ Identify scribe
15:06:11 agenda+ bug triage subteam Bugs
15:06:13 agenda+ longdesc resolutions http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Apr/0042.html
15:06:14 agenda+ Updated longdesc drafthttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Apr/0041.html
15:06:16 agenda+ TF Publication Process http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Mar/0080.html
15:06:18 agenda+ Upcoming HTML & PF F2F http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda
15:06:19 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:06:21 agenda+ Subteam Reports?
15:06:22 agenda+ Other Business
15:06:24 agenda+ be done
15:06:38 scribe: Chaals
15:06:44 zakim, agenda?
15:06:44 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda:
15:06:45 1. Identify scribe [from Steve]
15:06:45 2. bug triage subteam Bugs [from Steve]
15:06:45 3. longdesc resolutions http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Apr/0042.html [from Steve]
15:06:45 4. Updated longdesc drafthttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Apr/0041.html [from Steve]
15:06:46 5. TF Publication Process http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Mar/0080.html [from Steve]
15:06:46 6. Upcoming HTML & PF F2F http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda [from Steve]
15:06:46 7. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from Steve]
15:06:46 8. Subteam Reports? [from Steve]
15:06:46 9. Other Business [from Steve]
15:06:46 10. be done [from Steve]
15:06:55 zakim, close item 1
15:06:55 agendum 1, Identify scribe, closed
15:06:57 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:06:57 2. bug triage subteam Bugs [from Steve]
15:07:03 paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:07:04 zakim, item 2
15:07:05 I don't understand 'item 2', chaals
15:07:13 zakim, take up agendum 2
15:07:14 agendum 2. "bug triage subteam Bugs" taken up [from Steve]
15:07:17 scribe: Mark Sadecki
15:07:18 JF has joined #html-a11y
15:07:23 scribe: chaals
15:07:32 scribeNick: MarkS
15:07:38 zakim, what is the code?
15:07:38 the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
15:07:39 SF: We are waiting on Leonie for bug triage.
15:08:01 +[Microsoft]
15:08:16 +[Apple]
15:08:20 Zakim, Apple is me
15:08:20 +hober; got it
15:08:44 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:08:44 +paulc; got it
15:08:45 SF: Leonie is currently switching jobs and is not a formal member of TF so she is currently experiencing some difficulty participating
15:08:50 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Apr/0055.html
15:08:53 zakim, Microsoft is Paul_Cotton
15:08:53 +Paul_Cotton; got it
15:09:26 zakim, take up item 3
15:09:26 agendum 3. "longdesc resolutions http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Apr/0042.html" taken up [from Steve]
15:09:32 SF: Longdesc resolutions
15:10:27 chaals: resolve technical bug, asked for feedback. problem seems to be solved. suggest we resolve as closed.
15:10:34 SF: Agreed
15:10:45 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21236
15:10:46 -> reflects bug
15:10:54 RESOLUTION: close bug 21236
15:11:30 chaals: one raised by leif and one raised by WG
15:11:48 …leif wanted to repair broken longdesc, WG says we shouldn't
15:13:01 …propose to take away "shouldn't repair", more important to help authors, reject both bugs not helpful for users to make it against the rules, reject leif's bug because the detailed rules are out of scope.
15:13:20 …we could submit techniques to ATAG
15:13:23 +1 to close bug
15:13:31 … propose to reject both bugs.
15:13:41 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21439 blocks https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21678
15:14:02 JS: not recalling i18n's initial involvement
15:14:21 +[IPcaller]
15:14:46 chaals: author doesn't have motivation to solve problems. user agents should be allowed to help users. if we are going to put this anywhere it should go into advice for performance checking tools. That is already in the document.
15:14:58 LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
15:15:19 JS: agree that this is not the place to be discoursing on correct techniques for repairs.
15:15:34 SF: this is an error case. WG says text shouldn't be in attributes.
15:16:41 chaals: problem is one group wants their statement positive and strong and the other negative and strong
15:16:53 JF: right, its a wash, canceling out eachother.
15:17:07 JS: spec is not the place for corrective guidance
15:17:37 …if we were starting from scratch today we could attempt this, but this is not the time to be trying to remove it and go purist with markup.
15:18:21 RESOLUTION: wont fix bug 21439 and 21678
15:19:13 PC: pretty controversial but there is a general consensus that there should be a way to notify the user without giving them an error
15:19:29 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21437
15:19:55 chaals: request to say that it is a requirement to make longdesc accessible
15:20:03 …wcag already says that, go look at that.
15:20:29 +1
15:20:31 …image alone is not an accessible format, but make a reference to wcag to define it in this context.
15:20:51 RESOLUTION: close bug 21437
15:20:56 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21493
15:20:58 +1
15:21:40 chaals: describe link rot issue in the spec, risk bad maintenance. General page maintenance issue, but it is a problem with a lot of other things. Propose to not fix it.
15:21:42 +1
15:21:45 +1
15:21:58 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21571
15:22:06 RESOLUTION: wontfix bug 21493
15:22:44 chaals: about how to refer to WCAG, fairly editorial. taken some of the advice and ignored the rest and leave it with what is currently in editors draft
15:23:24 +1 to close
15:23:35 no objection
15:23:54 RESOLUTION: close but 21571
15:23:56 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21501
15:24:51 chaals: advice for conformance checkers. This one is tricky. Would like to add a reference to how you do repair. Can't find anything. Would love it if someone could make a suggestion. ATAG Techniques?
15:25:00 …don't want to put all the techniques into this document.
15:25:19 SF: no
15:25:24 JF: this type of advice would come from WCAG Techniques
15:25:39 chaals: this is specific to what conformance checking tools do.
15:25:51 …best reference I can find is in ATAG
15:26:08 SF: what do you have in there currently for advice
15:26:17 chaals: none currently.
15:26:18 Zakim, who is making noise?
15:26:29 hober, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Steve (15%), Paul_Cotton (29%)
15:26:34 [best reference I can find is principle B3 of ATAG techniques - assist authors in improving the accessibility of content]
15:27:21 +1 to close
15:27:24 chaals: propse to link to ATAG techniques. Out of scope to describe all answers in this doc.
15:27:30 s/prpse/propose
15:27:42 s/propse/propose
15:28:46 chaals: where do you go to find out how to make your conformance tool how to do a better job.
15:28:59 SF: should we ask Mike Smith?
15:29:49 chaals: this is not about what are we going to get implemented in a given tool. ITs more about tool makers looking for advice for the behavior of their tool.
15:30:11 …these are not requirements, it more about how can our tool do a good job.
15:30:45 SF: nothing normative about. A statement about how you might accomplish it. A sentence or two.
15:30:55 +1 to close.
15:30:57 chaals: reference to ATAG for now and close it?
15:32:00 JS: not too late to ask ATAG to do more, esp if we provide language
15:32:30 chaals: realize there might be a better reference, invite comment, but don't plan to do anything unless a better reference comes in. Auto-timeout at LC
15:32:47 JS: NExt pub date is June 11
15:33:55 zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
15:33:55 +LJWatson; got it
15:34:16 RESOLUTION: close bug 21501
15:34:17 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21679
15:34:49 Minimum time for paten disclosure following FPWD discussed in the FAQ at:
15:34:50 http://www.w3.org/2003/12/22-pp-faq.html
15:35:23 chaals: Richard Ishida pointed out that the name of the image described was Vitruvian Man, which was missing the point. Solution was to make the text a little clearer.
15:35:56 JF: right the whole point is that we're not talking about the title, but the description of the work.
15:36:12 vitruvian man
15:36:16 chaals: now the use case says you might not find the title helpful so the description might be better
15:36:34 RESOLUTION: close 21679
15:37:02 ACTION: chaals will close bugs
15:37:02 Created ACTION-177 - Will close bugs [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-04-25].
15:37:31 zakim, agendum 2
15:37:31 I don't understand 'agendum 2', chaals
15:37:40 zakim, take up agendum 2
15:37:40 agendum 2. "bug triage subteam Bugs" taken up [from Steve]
15:37:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Apr/0055.html
15:38:44 LW: there is one more that is not on that email: what is the TF approach when bugs are filed against things the TF is responsible for, like Image Description extenstion
15:38:57 q+
15:39:02 …should we assign them to the editor?
15:39:17 SF: that should be fine
15:39:29 …we should still track it
15:39:39 PC: why would you bother?
15:40:00 …would have thought that the whole idea was to get our of the problem of an additional sub gropu tracking a bug
15:40:05 q+
15:40:20 …it is owned by the task force, the bug triage team would just duplicate that work
15:40:27 …bug triage should just ignore thme
15:40:40 chaals: put them on your list of bugs being tracked.
15:41:07 …useful to have it on your list of of things to follow up on so you can remind the editor at some point.
15:41:55 LW: looking at bugs with TF keyword have been moved to CSS and SVG and others. Suggest we remove a11ytf keyword.
15:42:10 JS: how does PF know we are tracking it.
15:42:35 PC: when those component changes were made, was it made on public-html-admin
15:43:06 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13648
15:43:31 LW: this one was moved to SVG product
15:44:10 PC: was wondering how old these were. Seem to be very old. Has been reassigned correctly.
15:44:26 LW: happy to take a11ytf keyword off and let PF know?
15:44:31 no objection
15:44:56 LW: about bug 9280. bug has been cloned so we are tracking it there. moot.
15:45:18 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21563
15:45:50 … next one is the removal of hgroup. wondering of the problem was something tf wanted to keep on the radar or look for alternative solutions.
15:46:25 SF: not until we get concrete proposals is there anything we can actually do. There have been a few proposals, but nobody has stepped forward to work on those proposals.
15:46:32 LW: any references to those?
15:47:11 SF: I will share them at a later point.
15:47:29 JF: is it worth taking a look at them and perhaps pursuing at the TF level?
15:47:51 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/164
15:48:00 …if we start discussion on some of these, someone on the TF might take one of them up.
15:48:41 SF: I've put in the alt tracker issue because the start of it has various links to change proposal and various bugs associated (Semi change proposals). Those are all of the ideas that are out there currently.
15:48:55 LW: I'll take a look at those options to see if there is something to work with.
15:49:27 JF: should we put this on the agenda in a week or two? carve out 20 minutes or so in a few weeks to look at the proposals in depth? does that have value?
15:50:08 SF: that is reasonable, just make sure someone adds it to the agenda during the agenda request that week. People should take a look at them before the meeting.
15:50:50 PC: sort of hoping that the TF might discuss what items the TF would like to add to the agenda for the F2F
15:52:13 JS: I haven't had time to add them to the wiki. We do have one DRM related issue to bring up. So far we have not identified a use case which would require us to encrypt, so we would be well served to find a way to leave those unencrypted to avoid allowing developers to use it because it exists.
15:52:24 JF notes that currently the W3C is not working on a DRM system: http://www.w3.org/QA/2013/03/drm_and_the_open_web.html
15:52:40 PC: you could edit the agenda and make a sub-topic for this topic. I'll do it right now.
15:53:09 JS: encourage alternate media to stay in the clear when primary resource is encrypted under DRM
15:53:14 PC: done
15:53:54 JS: the other topic is on rich text editing. draft API in WebAPPS which raises some a11y issues. not sure if its timely for HTML yet, but would like to start people thinking about it now.
15:54:01 PC: what is the spec in WebAPPS called?
15:54:17 -Cooper
15:54:28 JS: API for ?? I ME Spec. I will send in after the call
15:54:51 PC: I know there are a couple things that WebAPPS are doing that will override what the HTML5 spec does.
15:55:02 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/Overview.html
15:55:19 SF: its related to the use of canvas
15:55:44 PC: Do you think that might be related back to the canvas discussion then?
15:56:15 Q+
15:56:16 JS: This has come up for PF in an ARIA context. We have issues with the proposed API. It suggests that we do have some problems.
15:56:32 SF: I thought you were arranging to bring this up with WebAPPS at the F2F
15:56:43 PC: why would the HTMLWG need to worry about this.
15:57:06 JS: this is just the beginning of what will require a coordinated approach to dealing with rich text editing.
15:57:26 ISSUE-194: Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
15:57:27 Error adding notes to ISSUE-194 - the response from Tracker was missing data. Please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
15:57:32 JF: would like to see discussion about ISSUE 194 at F2F
15:57:44 … currently marked as closed, but we don't have any resolution.
15:58:11 …never really got to consensus.
15:58:36 PC: assigning a transcript to a video (ISSUE 194)
15:58:45 ack JF
15:59:05 -hober
15:59:14 ack me
15:59:21 agendum
15:59:27 zakim, agenda?
15:59:27 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
15:59:28 2. bug triage subteam Bugs [from Steve]
15:59:28 3. longdesc resolutions http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Apr/0042.html [from Steve]
15:59:28 4. Updated longdesc drafthttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Apr/0041.html [from Steve]
15:59:29 5. TF Publication Process http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Mar/0080.html [from Steve]
15:59:29 6. Upcoming HTML & PF F2F http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda [from Steve]
15:59:29 7. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from Steve]
15:59:29 8. Subteam Reports? [from Steve]
15:59:30 9. Other Business [from Steve]
15:59:30 10. be done [from Steve]
15:59:30 -Paul_Cotton
15:59:50