14:58:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-rdf-wg-irc
14:58:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:58:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:12 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:12 <trackbot> Date: 17 April 2013
14:58:15 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:21 <sandro> Zakim, who is here?
14:58:21 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, sandro
14:58:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see pchampin, Zakim, RRSAgent, pfps, tbaker, AndyS, gavinc, manu, ivan, SteveH, cygri, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot
14:58:45 <sandro> zakim, this is rdf
14:58:45 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
14:58:51 <sandro> Zakim, who is here?
14:58:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.992.aaaa, Sandro
14:58:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see pchampin, Zakim, RRSAgent, pfps, tbaker, AndyS, gavinc, manu, ivan, SteveH, cygri, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot
14:59:08 <sandro> zakim, aaaa is pfps
14:59:08 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
14:59:11 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:47 <Zakim> +??P12
14:59:53 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
14:59:54 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:59:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, ??P12, Ivan
14:59:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see Guus, pchampin, Zakim, RRSAgent, pfps, tbaker, AndyS, gavinc, manu, ivan, SteveH, cygri, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot
14:59:58 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P12 is me
14:59:58 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
15:00:13 <Zakim> +Guus
15:00:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:00:38 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
15:00:38 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:00:45 <cgreer> cgreer has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:53 <Zakim> +??P16
15:01:00 <pchampin> zakim, ??P16 is me
15:01:01 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:02:10 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:02:26 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:32 <Zakim> + +1.707.874.aabb
15:02:42 <cgreer> zakim, aabb is me
15:02:42 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it
15:03:26 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:28 <Zakim> +GavinC
15:03:29 <sandro> zakim, openlink_software is temporarily tallted
15:03:29 <Zakim> +tallted; got it
15:03:48 <Zakim> + +1.540.898.aacc
15:04:11 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:25 <davidwood> Zakim, aacc is me
15:04:25 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
15:04:36 <Zakim> +??P26
15:04:39 <cgreer> scrbenick: cgreer
15:04:42 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P26
15:04:42 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
15:04:49 <cgreer> scribenick: cgreer
15:05:25 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:32 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/
15:06:02 <markus> markus has joined #rdf-wg
15:06:06 <Zakim> + +081165aadd
15:06:13 <markus> zakim, code?
15:06:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), markus
15:06:28 <AZ> zakim, aadd is me
15:06:28 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:06:42 <Zakim> +??P34
15:06:43 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
15:06:46 <markus> zakim, ??P34 is me
15:06:46 <Zakim> +markus; got it
15:06:47 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me
15:06:48 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
15:06:50 <gavinc> or you know... just added RDFa to the template? :P
15:07:19 <gkellogg> http://json-ld.org/minutes/
15:07:59 <gkellogg> Note that JSON-LD minute summaries include resolutions
15:09:04 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 10 April telecon:
15:09:04 <davidwood> 
15:09:04 <davidwood>    https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-10
15:09:13 <pfps> minutes are fine
15:09:19 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:27 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 10 April telecon:   https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-10
15:09:36 <cgreer> topic: action items
15:09:37 <davidwood> Review of action items
15:09:37 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
15:09:37 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
15:10:07 <Zakim> +PatH
15:10:17 <cgreer> davidwood: actions related to turtle test suite
15:10:18 <cgreer> ?
15:10:22 <AZ> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:10:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, SteveH, Ivan, Guus, AndyS, pchampin, tallted, cgreer, GavinC, davidwood, gkellogg, AZ, ericP, markus, PatH
15:10:26 <cgreer> gavinc: we dont have word from all contributors yet
15:10:34 <cgreer> gavinc: the grant form is pending
15:10:53 <cgreer> davidwood: I know the status.  Dave Beckett may have filled it out.
15:11:04 <davidwood> s/davidwood/sandro/
15:11:12 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/testgrants-200409/
15:12:11 <cgreer> gavinc: We need this from David Robelard... and OK We can publish the test suite!
15:12:20 <cgreer> gavinc: new license is in there and updated
15:12:48 <cgreer> ericP: I can do rest of work after the meeting.
15:12:58 <cgreer> ericP: It's going into 2013/turtle-tests
15:12:59 <sandro> > David Robillard : On behalf of the contributing organization named above, I agree to the above Grant of License for Contributed Test Cases Published as Part of a W3C Recommendation.
15:12:59 <sandro> > David Beckett : On behalf of the contributing organization named above, I agree to the above Grant of License for Contributed Test Cases Published as Part of a W3C Recommendation.
15:13:33 <cgreer> sandro: I gave my talk on changes to RDF 1.1
15:13:42 <cgreer> ... It went pretty well.
15:13:45 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/0409-rdf11/
15:14:27 <cgreer> PatH: You sounded cautious when you said it went well.
15:14:38 <cgreer> sandro: That meant there was a lack of negativity in the audience
15:14:51 <cgreer> davidwood: On to document dependencies
15:14:55 <cgreer> topic: Document Dependenciew
15:15:03 <cgreer> s/Dependenciew/Dependencies
15:15:17 <davidwood> Normative References to W3C Standards http://www.w3.org/2013/02/stdref
15:15:24 <cgreer> davidwood: Ian J. announced a new document...
15:15:27 <davidwood> Takes effect 28 April or after
15:16:00 <pfps> as far as I can tell, Semantics is already compliant wrt to this
15:16:16 <pfps> ... although I don't know exactly what changes, if any, are required
15:16:25 <cgreer> PatH: I looked at this and couldn't see changes
15:16:32 <cgreer> davidwood: I couldn't find deltas either
15:16:42 <cgreer> s/davidwood/sandro
15:17:11 <cgreer> gavinc: the preference direction has changed from latest to 'this' version
15:17:35 <cgreer> gavinc: from 'this' to latest (correction)
15:17:53 <cgreer> davidwood: in Richard's absence we'll skip concepts
15:18:15 <pfps> +1
15:18:18 <Zakim> -pfps
15:18:20 <cgreer> davidwood: Any other business?
15:18:32 <gavinc> or DOM4 :D
15:18:45 <Zakim> +pfps
15:18:58 <PatH> 1-pfps=?
15:19:07 <pfps> +1
15:19:11 <PatH> ah
15:19:12 <pfps> q+
15:19:22 <cgreer> gavinc: On the trailing dot.  THe reason why it's still there is that we decided to leave it there as long as it was at risk
15:19:33 <cgreer> gavinc: We can go back and change so that either works
15:19:51 <cgreer> ericP: If we're going to make it optional, we need to go back to LC
15:19:56 <AndyS> Please - not - "PREFIX <> ."
15:20:01 <cgreer> davidwood: We don't want to keep changing the grammar.
15:20:23 <cgreer> davidwood: Better not to keep changing it.
15:20:33 <cgreer> sandro: Do you mean language or grammar?
15:21:01 <cgreer> We'll agree on 'language' or BNF
15:21:25 <cgreer> gavinc: Nobody is suggesting that we should allow trailing dot after SPARQL form
15:21:53 <cgreer> ... the problem with making '.' optional after @prefix is that it can make some turtle documents impossible to...
15:22:04 <davidwood> q?
15:22:07 <sandro> Case 1:   @prefix  dot     Case 2:   @prefix  no dot      Case 3:   PREFIX    dot       Case 4:    PREFIX no dot
15:22:14 <davidwood> ack pfps
15:22:27 <cgreer> pfps: It would be nice to get discussion of outstanding concepts and semantics issues
15:22:34 <cgreer> ... cause the resolutions were blocked
15:22:54 <cgreer> pfpd: The issues are in the agenda
15:23:04 <cgreer> s/pfpd/pfps/
15:23:17 <cgreer> pfpd: While we're in turtle...
15:23:31 <cgreer> davidwood: we can't just throw away a trailing dot
15:23:43 <cgreer> ericP: for some pathological document it can change the meaning
15:23:57 <cgreer> davidwood: Why wouldn't the same condition occur with use of SPARQL
15:23:58 <AndyS> q+ to ask for the example document.
15:24:11 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:24:11 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask for the example document.
15:24:17 <cgreer> gavinc: SPARQL doesn't have backwards-compatible issue
15:24:24 <cgreer> AndyS: I'm not sure it's an issue.
15:24:38 <cgreer> sandro: The cases are above.
15:24:57 <cgreer> ... case 2 is the one we're discussing
15:25:24 <cgreer> ericP: Example in the record?
15:25:36 <sandro> sandro:  I'm hearing case-1 accepted, case-4 at risk, case-3 no one wants, case-2 heresay that it's a problem.
15:25:54 <gkellogg> @prefix a: <b> a:c a a:d .
15:25:57 <cgreer> sandro: Case three is disallowed from SPARQL, so let's not train people to use it
15:26:16 <sandro> sandro: I'm hearing the problem with case-3 is that it would train people to use a dot, which woldn't work in SPARQL.
15:26:17 <AndyS> The issue will be decimals.
15:26:56 <cgreer> AndyS: It woudl have to be a literal subject to break case 2.
15:27:01 <cgreer> s/woudl/would/
15:27:06 <AndyS> @prefix a: <> \n .8 :p 123 .
15:27:09 <pchampin> @prefix a: <b> .0 a xsd:integer .
15:27:50 <sandro> sandro: But a literal wouldn't be legal there anyway.
15:27:53 <cgreer> davidwood: This is a shortcut literal (no ")
15:28:03 <cgreer> gavinc: Right the only problem was from inverse syntax.
15:28:11 <sandro> gavin: But with the INVERSE syntax it would have been a problem.
15:28:19 <PatH> blech on shortcuts.
15:28:22 <cgreer> AndyS: Other problem was that prefix name could start with a '.'
15:28:34 <cgreer> gavinc: WHich it can't.
15:28:48 <AndyS> We ought to move on to PFPS.
15:28:57 <sandro> sandro: It's my FIRM belief this would not require another Last Call.
15:29:35 <cgreer> davidwood: There's no public record of objection.
15:29:44 <davidwood> q?
15:29:45 <cgreer> gavinc: We've just established that there's no problem.
15:29:46 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:29:56 <pfps> xsd:string??
15:30:04 <cgreer> davidwood: Move on to pfps concerns on open issues?
15:30:57 <sandro> eric: It MIGHT require a new Last Call since it requires every implementation to change.
15:31:04 <cgreer> ericP: I'm trying to figure out the rationale for the optional .
15:31:19 <cgreer> davidwood: I don't see a strong case for change either.
15:31:48 <cgreer> davidwood: We'll have to retest and reimplement if we adopt this, and we will end up back in LC
15:31:54 <AndyS> Suggestion - discuss on comments and make it a community decision because if community wants we can do it. If not, don't.
15:32:05 <cgreer> +1 AndyS
15:32:06 <sandro> +1 Andy
15:32:42 <sandro> q+
15:32:57 <cgreer> ericP: re Andy's suggestion, depending on phrasing of question we might lead the community.
15:32:59 <davidwood> ack sandro
15:33:10 <cgreer> sandro: What are we going to do about PREFIX
15:33:24 <cgreer> ericP: And this does reflect a discontinuity within the WG
15:33:35 <cgreer> ... copy/paste people vs. turtle people ;)
15:33:41 <ivan> +1 to Sandro
15:34:05 <ivan> yes
15:34:06 <cgreer> davidwood: I'm regretting we didn't just break it and move to PREFIX
15:34:17 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
15:34:17 <Zakim> Ivan was not muted, ivan
15:34:42 <ericP> i'd like to see text that says that "@prefix" is discouraged in order to promote cut&paste
15:34:45 <cgreer> ivan: What Sandro said is what I meant -- we expected this comment earlier
15:35:05 <cgreer> ... we got no comment on @previx vs. PREFIX
15:35:26 <cgreer> ericP: We've gotten comments from implementers who don't like it.
15:35:29 <AndyS> the comment was first made March 2.
15:35:49 <ericP> we've also gotten comments from users who want cut and paste
15:35:57 <cgreer> davidwood: Most people won't care particularly
15:36:14 <cgreer> ivan: As a user I don't care.
15:36:36 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:36:36 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:36:37 <cgreer> davidwood: Then let's wait for a week.  See how it settles
15:37:13 <cgreer> topic: semantics
15:37:31 <pfps> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0101.html
15:37:37 <davidwood> ISSUE-107?
15:37:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open
15:37:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107
15:37:44 <cgreer> pfps: Blank node definition
15:38:03 <cgreer> ... different graphs can share blank nodes.  We've agreed on that.
15:38:11 <cgreer> ... So how to change semantics and concepts to reflect reality
15:38:42 <cgreer> ... RDF graphs can share blank nodes.  When you merge two graphs you don't have to relabel blank nodes, because they may indeed refer to the same one
15:39:05 <cgreer> PatH: Some more elaborate discussions have been put to bed.
15:39:13 <cgreer> ... we won't use formal scope
15:39:27 <cgreer> pfps: But something needs to be added to concepts.
15:39:27 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0135.html
15:40:07 <cgreer> davidwood: I don't think that Richard's propsed text fully addressed everything that Peter mentioned.
15:40:29 <cgreer> pfps: Richard's message from 11/9/2012 doesn't talk about this.
15:40:52 <cgreer> ... all it does is change wording that introduces blank nodes
15:40:54 <ivan> q+
15:40:59 <cgreer> ... They're not IRIs and not literals
15:41:21 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/trig/#terms-blanks-nodes is I think the only place we talk about this at the moment ;_)
15:41:32 <PatH> q+
15:41:59 <gavinc> TriG doesn't say "may"
15:42:34 <cgreer> pfps: Section 1.7 of concepts ...
15:42:49 <cgreer> ... concepts doc hasn't been changed, and has been overtaken by revision of semantics
15:43:11 <ivan> ack ivan
15:43:16 <cgreer> pfps takes action to propose wording for concepts
15:43:16 <davidwood> ack ivan
15:43:33 <gavinc> +q to ask if the wording in TriG is okay with the blanknodists
15:43:47 <cgreer> ivan: Agreed, action to Peter because we have to move
15:44:20 <cgreer> Action: pfps to revise wording in concepts to reflect blank node semantics changes
15:44:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-252 - Revise wording in concepts to reflect blank node semantics changes [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2013-04-24].
15:44:35 <davidwood> ack PatH
15:44:46 <davidwood> ack gavinc
15:44:46 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to ask if the wording in TriG is okay with the blanknodists
15:44:49 <PatH> -q
15:45:15 <cgreer> gavinc: Wanted to make sure that some of this 'scope' has been pushed into syntax.  Confirm that wording is ok in TriG?
15:45:27 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/TR/trig/#terms-blanks-nodes
15:45:29 <gavinc> BlankNodes sharing the same label in differently labeled graph statements must be considered to be the same BlankNode.
15:45:50 <cgreer> ivan: That is what we decided.
15:46:17 <pchampin> +1 Pat
15:46:23 <cgreer> PatH: Presuming that TriG implies 'in the same file'
15:46:26 <pchampin> +1 Ivan, Gavin
15:46:27 <pchampin> :)
15:46:34 <pchampin> me too
15:46:36 <AndyS> One parser run.
15:46:37 <cgreer> PatH: I'd feel happier if it said that.
15:46:45 <cgreer> pfps: That's not what it means
15:46:52 <cgreer> gavinc: No, it's one parser run
15:47:23 <cgreer> davidwood: That's exactly what it should say.  One parser run.
15:47:32 <cgreer> PatH: Also this is a non-normative section with MUST
15:48:23 <cgreer> sandro: There's a respec change to default sections -- default -> non-normative rather than default -> normative
15:48:29 <cgreer> sandro: But let's not rely on the default
15:49:21 <cgreer> davidwood: any more business?
15:49:36 <cgreer> subtopic: issue-109
15:49:36 <davidwood> ISSUE-109?
15:49:36 <trackbot> ISSUE-109 -- What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed? -- open
15:49:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/109
15:50:32 <pchampin> 5.5 of concepts should be rephrased
15:50:39 <cgreer> Action: to pfps to review concepts for what it says about ill typed literals
15:50:39 <trackbot> Error finding 'to'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.
15:50:50 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #rdf-wg
15:50:53 <davidwood> ISSUE-118?
15:50:53 <trackbot> ISSUE-118 -- Simplifying datatype semantics -- open
15:50:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/118
15:51:21 <cgreer> Action: to PatH propose solution for ISSUE-118
15:51:21 <trackbot> Error finding 'to'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.
15:51:28 <pfps> Action: pfps to propose changes for what it says about ill-typed literals
15:51:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-253 - Propose changes for what it says about ill-typed literals [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2013-04-24].
15:51:40 <Zakim> -Guus
15:52:12 <PatH> sandro, what is latest respec link we should use?
15:52:16 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:52:17 <Zakim> -gkellogg
15:52:17 <Zakim> -pfps
15:52:18 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:52:18 <Zakim> -cgreer
15:52:19 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:52:19 <Zakim> -davidwood
15:52:20 <Zakim> -GavinC
15:52:20 <Zakim> -tallted
15:52:21 <Zakim> -ericP
15:52:23 <Zakim> -PatH
15:52:23 <Zakim> -pchampin
15:52:24 <Zakim> -AZ
15:52:27 <Zakim> -markus
15:52:28 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
15:52:28 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.992.aaaa, Sandro, pfps, Ivan, SteveH, Guus, AndyS, pchampin, +1.707.874.aabb, cgreer, GavinC, tallted, +1.540.898.aacc, davidwood, gkellogg, +081165aadd, AZ,
15:52:28 <Zakim> ... markus, ericP, PatH
15:52:30 <cgreer> Action: PatH to propose solution for ISSUE-118
15:52:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-254 - Propose solution for ISSUE-118 [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-04-24].