IRC log of mlw-lt on 2013-04-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:07:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #mlw-lt
12:07:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-irc
12:07:04 [fsasaki]
meeting: mlw-lt wg
12:07:06 [fsasaki]
chair: david
12:07:18 [fsasaki]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0099.html
12:07:44 [fsasaki]
hi all, I'm only on irc, but can help with the scribing setup - is there a scribe?
12:08:02 [kfritsche]
scribe: daveL
12:08:03 [daveL]
df: last four issues remaining at:
12:08:04 [pnietoca]
dave is scribing
12:08:13 [daveL]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-its20-20130411/#unresolved-issues
12:08:23 [fsasaki]
present+ fsasaki
12:08:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:08:34 [kfritsche]
present+ kfritsche
12:08:48 [daveL]
dF; asks if there are any other issues apart from those four?
12:09:02 [daveL]
none raised
12:09:09 [fsasaki]
s/dF;/dF:
12:09:12 [dF]
Topic: 3) Change of regex for allowed characters https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/67
12:09:44 [chriLi]
chriLi has joined #mlw-lt
12:10:23 [daveL]
pablo: has produced ABNF to go into specification, and waiting on schema to validate regex
12:10:40 [daveL]
dF: asks jirka is he is OK to make changes to schema
12:10:54 [daveL]
jirka: we first need to agree grammar
12:11:21 [daveL]
... allow a few extra days so everyone is happy before addressing schema for regEx
12:11:26 [fsasaki]
hi dF, all, just for the record, I am happy to close the issue-67 without the schema change
12:11:31 [daveL]
... some points to clarify
12:11:36 [kfritsche]
present+ dF, philr, Karl, pnietoca, Jirka, Des, shaunm, mdelolmo, leroy, Ankit, fsasaki
12:12:06 [daveL]
jirka: one issue is encoding beyond unicode
12:12:38 [fsasaki]
s/, fsasaki/, fsasaki(onlyIRC)/
12:13:06 [daveL]
... BNP support, e.g. this was motivation for compatibility with some existing regex engine that don't have complete unicode support
12:13:32 [fsasaki]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0093.html
12:13:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:13:40 [daveL]
... so people who raised this issue should check that they are now happy with regEx proposal from Pablo in this regard
12:14:58 [daveL]
dF: felix happy to proceed without schema change, but have we stable regEx for schema
12:15:37 [fsasaki]
hi dF, just a clarifiation: we have to have stable ABNF (not regex)
12:15:58 [daveL]
Jirka: agrees, doesn't need change to schema, but need to tie down option for encoding so that regex will work with these other engines
12:16:02 [Jirka]
s/BNP/BMP/
12:16:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:16:25 [daveL]
df: feels we should stick to unicode
12:17:01 [daveL]
df: asks WG if we are OK with Pablo to go ahead with suggested grammar
12:17:28 [daveL]
pablo: but there are still some issues, related to allowed characters
12:17:29 [Yves_]
Yves_ has joined #mlw-lt
12:17:29 [pnietoca]
it's issue 67, Yves raised it
12:17:41 [Yves_]
yes I'm here.
12:17:49 [Yves_]
present+ Yves
12:17:53 [Yves_]
yes
12:18:00 [daveL]
dF; asks Yves as he raised topic originally
12:18:16 [fsasaki]
hi all, the issue is the dependency on XML Schema - issue-67 is about removing that dependency. Having the abnf specified is a way to resolve this
12:18:18 [Yves_]
sure
12:18:23 [daveL]
... can pablo go ahead and raise regex given syntax for grammar agreed on the mailing list
12:18:30 [fsasaki]
s/dF;/dF:
12:19:03 [tadej]
tadej has joined #mlw-lt
12:19:09 [daveL]
df: no objections just clarification, so Pablo please go ahead.
12:20:17 [daveL]
.. with aim to close action for approval by next week
12:20:24 [dF]
Topic: 4) HTML translate
12:20:40 [dF]
https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/97
12:21:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:21:25 [daveL]
df: should this be handled separately to HTML5 defaults issue?
12:22:12 [daveL]
... asks Jirka to report on development of HTML translate in HTML5 WG
12:22:24 [fsasaki]
present+ chriLi
12:22:38 [daveL]
Jirka: nothing to report, things can be changed at any time at this point as it is still at CR stage
12:23:21 [daveL]
... so its hard to build on top of it right now
12:23:50 [daveL]
dF: several options available.
12:24:00 [tadej]
present+ tadej
12:24:01 [daveL]
... one is to drop it as no viable to nail down
12:24:24 [daveL]
... second is to wait for the HTML5 to stabalise
12:24:36 [daveL]
... third, set our own defaults
12:24:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:24:56 [daveL]
dF: Yves proposed the last
12:25:21 [daveL]
jirka: support this as waiting for HTML5 could take a long time
12:25:49 [Ankit]
3rd option
12:26:25 [daveL]
dF: propose to issue on pending review, with resolution not to wait for HTML5 but make issue related to HTML5 defaults (up next)
12:27:04 [pnietoca]
I'm in favour of merging both issue
12:27:08 [dF]
Topic: 5) HTML defaults https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/118
12:27:23 [fsasaki]
for the record, I would agree with our own defaults, but a question is what they relate to: all content labelled as HTML5 (there is no such label, btw), each HTML fragment in the HTML namespace, also including HTML legacy content without namespace?
12:27:41 [daveL]
Topic: HTML5 defaults
12:27:46 [fsasaki]
s/each/or each/
12:27:49 [fsasaki]
s/also/or also/
12:27:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:29:01 [Yves_]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/HTML5_Defaults
12:29:12 [daveL]
dF: asks Yves to post link to proposed defaults
12:29:20 [dF]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0088.html
12:29:56 [Yves_]
not stable yet
12:30:18 [Yves_]
probably
12:30:24 [daveL]
df: asks if content of defaults page is upto date
12:31:03 [daveL]
dF: propose making this page stable and then referring to this page
12:31:08 [dF]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/HTML5_Defaults
12:31:58 [daveL]
.. i.e. to implementing these stable defaults in the spec
12:32:01 [Yves_]
Is it fine to use a wiki page as a normative source?
12:32:47 [daveL]
dF: asks everyone to review this and raise any objections
12:33:17 [daveL]
... better to have reference on wiki page as issue is complex
12:33:50 [fsasaki]
Hi Yves, yes, but we should have the wiki page in the ITS IG so that the update is easier, and a description in the ITS2 spec how the update should work
12:33:56 [fsasaki]
s/update/update of the wiki page/
12:34:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:36:35 [daveL]
dF: so we keep issue open and aim to resolve via wiki page by next call
12:36:47 [fsasaki]
+1
12:36:59 [dF]
Topic: 6) Data categories that need mappings in the wiki See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0087.html
12:37:11 [fsasaki]
dF, can you discuss also the mail from jirka?
12:38:22 [fsasaki]
see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0110.html
12:38:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:39:46 [daveL]
dF: move mapping to IG wiki
12:41:02 [daveL]
... but aim to continue work within MLW-LT and within its timeline over the remaining months
12:41:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:41:51 [daveL]
... ask felix if that is OK from a MLW-LT workgroup proceedure/
12:42:55 [daveL]
christian: raises that version control for mapping is needed, specifically for quality mapping to specific LQI tools
12:43:06 [chriLi]
http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html
12:43:07 [fsasaki]
hi dF, Dave, not sure what "that" refers to. For a topic like the mapping it is ok to move to the ITS IG wiki now and also include input from outside.
12:43:57 [fsasaki]
hi christian, just to emphasize: the quality mapping is non-normative. Version control makes sense, but it won't influence the ITS2 spec - rather the way how the info is presented in the wiki
12:44:41 [daveL]
felix, I mean that MLW-LT can continue develop mapping directly in IG wiki - so i guess yes
12:44:57 [fsasaki]
yes, thanks, daveL
12:45:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:45:41 [daveL]
df: asks how this table in particular is version managed
12:45:56 [daveL]
... who developed the table
12:46:22 [Yves_]
Arle created the table
12:46:26 [fsasaki]
hi dF, the table is not version managed. it was developed by arle.
12:46:35 [Yves_]
(I think)
12:46:55 [fsasaki]
if people agree I'm ok to add a version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html - do you want to give me an action item?
12:48:19 [daveL]
action: fsasaki to add tool version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html
12:48:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-492 - Add tool version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-04-24].
12:48:27 [fsasaki]
thanks
12:49:12 [daveL]
christian: also not sure about the effect of this table - would it discourage implementation of ITS if the mapping existing
12:50:04 [daveL]
... suggest to include explicit statement to encourage implementation of ITS, rather than rely on mapping
12:50:33 [daveL]
dF: implementation typically use such a mapping internally
12:50:49 [fsasaki]
hi christian, I think it depends on how you present the table, not on the table itself. I'm happy to add such an explicit statement to http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#lqissue-typevalues if you give me an action
12:52:01 [dF]
Topic: 7) Importance of normalization See i18n WG discussion at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0021.html
12:52:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:52:23 [daveL]
action: fsasaki to add comment to LQI tool mapping hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to conformance testing of ITs impementations
12:52:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-493 - Add comment to LQI tool mapping hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to conformance testing of ITs impementations [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-04-24].
12:52:57 [dF]
Topic: 7) Importance of normalization See i18n WG discussion at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0021.html
12:53:37 [fsasaki]
hi all, my *tentative* proposal to resolve this is here http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#its2-and-unicode-normalization
12:54:07 [fsasaki]
I sent that link also to the i18n wg, waiting for feedback - if you have feedback here please let me know
12:54:28 [fsasaki]
see my mail to i18n wg asking for feedback on "normalization" section at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0024.html
12:54:29 [daveL]
dF; suggest non-normative text suggesting implementors include a normaliser implemenitng unicode nomalisation form C, see post form felix
12:54:33 [fsasaki]
(only visible to w3c members)
12:54:44 [fsasaki]
s/dF;/dF:/
12:54:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:56:01 [daveL]
dF: the aim is to encourge migration by implementors from legacy encoding to unicode
12:56:05 [pnietoca]
It seems good to me
12:56:19 [daveL]
dF: supports this proposed solution
12:56:23 [daveL]
.. other comments
12:57:08 [daveL]
christian: clarifies, if a text analytics tool provides annotations it should use such a normaliser?
12:57:40 [philr]
When we say Unicode - we mean all encodings: utf-8, utf-16, etc.?
12:57:45 [daveL]
dF: this is a non-normative piece of implementation guidance
12:58:01 [fsasaki]
hi christian, yes, like all other implementations of ITS2 - the normalization section doesn't differentate between what piece of the spec is implemented
12:58:31 [fsasaki]
hi philr - yes, all unicode, encouraging normalization form C
12:58:46 [daveL]
christian: is this normalisation requirement similar to those in XLIFF, TMX etc?
12:59:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:59:24 [daveL]
... if not does it make ITS implementation seem more onerous than these others in comparison
13:00:12 [fsasaki]
hi christian, do you have pointers to the requirements in XLIFF, TMX etc.?
13:00:19 [daveL]
dF: reports there are some normalisation statements in XLIFF in places, e.g. for content comparison
13:00:21 [fsasaki]
(to be able to answer your question)
13:01:09 [fsasaki]
answering the question: no. The requirement in ITS is a general one: when you process content on the web, assure that you have unicode in normalizaiton form C
13:01:21 [daveL]
... this is the default behaviour in several places
13:01:36 [fsasaki]
(that is at least the purpose of the section). The requirement is not specific to selected processes (NIF, XPath execution, ...)
13:01:44 [daveL]
... so the comparison to XLIFF is not to the detriment of ITS2.0 adoption
13:02:10 [daveL]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:02:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html daveL
13:02:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
13:03:04 [Jirka]
Jirka has left #mlw-lt
13:04:41 [fsasaki]
hi dF, daveL, what is the outcome of the normalization section discussion - any feedback for me to discuss with the i18n WG? Or can the i18n folks just look at http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#its2-and-unicode-normalization and give comments
13:10:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:36:24 [fsasaki]
action-492?
14:36:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-492 -- Felix Sasaki to add tool version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html -- due 2013-04-24 -- OPEN
14:36:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/492
14:36:28 [fsasaki]
action-493?
14:36:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-493 -- Felix Sasaki to add comment to LQI tool mapping hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to conformance testing of ITs impementations -- due 2013-04-24 -- OPEN
14:36:28 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/493
14:36:55 [fsasaki]
close action-492
14:36:55 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-492 Add tool version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html.
14:36:57 [fsasaki]
close action-493
14:36:57 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-493 Add comment to LQI tool mapping hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to conformance testing of ITs impementations.
14:37:33 [fsasaki]
action-491: done, see this thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0113.html
14:37:33 [trackbot]
Notes added to ACTION-491 Invite RRSAgent.
14:37:45 [fsasaki]
close action-491
14:37:45 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-491 Invite RRSAgent.
14:37:58 [fsasaki]
action-491?
14:37:58 [trackbot]
ACTION-491 -- David Filip to invite RRSAgent -- due 2013-04-24 -- CLOSED
14:37:58 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/491
14:39:29 [fsasaki]
action-481: done, see this thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0113.html
14:39:30 [trackbot]
Notes added to ACTION-481 Confirm NIF changes before leaving last call.
14:39:34 [fsasaki]
close action-481
14:39:35 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-481 Confirm NIF changes before leaving last call.
14:48:17 [fsasaki]
rrsagent, bye
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-actions.rdf :
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: fsasaki to add tool version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html [1]
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-irc#T12-48-19
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: fsasaki to add comment to LQI tool mapping hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to conformance testing of ITs impementations [2]
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-irc#T12-52-23