07:23:13 RRSAgent has joined #sysapps 07:23:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-sysapps-irc 07:23:19 sunghan has joined #sysapps 07:23:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:23:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 07:23:26 q? 07:23:38 Present+ Jonathan_Jeon 07:23:54 Present+ Wonsuk_Lee 07:24:04 Mounir: WebIntents dependency on two-way messaging between to open webpages results in UI problems. 07:24:55 jungkee: I think Sysapps should work with DAP/WebApps to come up with use cases, and similar property names, with respect to Contacts. 07:25:12 Scribe: gmandyam 07:25:19 q+ 07:25:23 Present+ Mounir_Lamouri 07:25:31 ack Suresh 07:25:35 Present+ Ming_Jin 07:25:36 ScribeNick: gmandyam 07:26:16 Suresh: From a W3C perspective, we don't want to have two different API's for the same functionality. DAP specs are not frozen, so we can collaborate between the two groups and not confuse developers. 07:26:39 Chair: Wonsuk_Lee, Mounir_Lamouri 07:26:58 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:26:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 07:26:58 eduardo: (Presenting SysApps Contacts API) The basis of this draft is the FF OS Contacts API. 07:27:04 q+ 07:27:29 q+ 07:27:30 zkis has joined #sysapps 07:27:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:27:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-sysapps-minutes.html anssik 07:28:07 eduardo: (Presenting SysApps Contacts API) ContactsManager has the following methods: find(), clear(), save(contact), remove(contact). There is also an oncontactschange event handler. 07:28:28 mounir: (to summarize) SysApps should rely on Web Intents or a similar mechanism to happen but we do not know if this is going to be exactly the same. Web Intents have been stopped for UI issues and those UI problems do not all apply in the current usage of Web Activity (apps + mobile). While meeting Google, we found some solutions but those issues being UI related, we need to experiment. This is why it is taking so long. The main problems are related to t[CUT] 07:28:31 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/System_Applications:_1st_F2F_Meeting_Agenda#3rd_day_.2811th_April.29 07:29:03 Zoltan: There is an assumption that there is only one address book in the system. Why this limitation? 07:29:15 eduardo: We don't have a requirement to deal with multiple address books. 07:29:41 q? 07:29:51 ack zk 07:30:59 q+ 07:32:02 dka has joined #sysapps 07:32:22 present+ Dan Appelquist 07:32:44 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 07:32:58 Present+ Fil_Maj 07:32:58 http://contacts-manager-api.sysapps.org/ 07:33:29 rrsagent, make logs public 07:33:54 http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-contacts-api-20120712/ 07:34:24 gmandyam has joined #sysapps 07:34:35 ScribeNick: gmandyam 07:35:16 zoltan: Remove the constraint of a system address book and this could make the API more flexibile. 07:35:50 zoltan: Implementation can keep track of origins. 07:36:04 eduardo: What do you think of dsr's suggestion of a partial I/F? 07:36:22 zoltan: We still need appropriate notifications when contacts change. 07:36:54 chris: How about a 'service ID' field in the contact? 07:37:17 zoltan: The contacts manager will now be managing all the stores. 07:39:22 s/flexibile/flexible/ 07:39:24 q? 07:40:18 q+ 07:41:55 dka has joined #sysapps 07:42:18 q+ 07:43:07 thinker: I am concerned about properly identifying the origin of contacts derived from multiple sources. Will a 'service ID' be sufficient? Do the different contact sources provide consistent fields? 07:43:12 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 07:43:47 zoltan: I believe the API is sufficient with an origin field, but a partial I/F could be necessary for prioritizing contact stores, discovery of available contact stores. 07:43:59 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 07:46:02 Milan_Patel has joined #sysapps 07:46:22 q? 07:46:52 q- chris 07:47:00 q- mounir 07:49:11 q+ 07:49:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:49:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 07:49:14 Jungkee has joined #sysapps 07:50:52 gmandyam has joined #sysapps 07:50:59 ScirbeNick: gmandyam 07:51:25 s/ScirbeNick/ScribeNick 07:52:39 Josh_Soref: I wonder about the usefulness of this API. As Chris stated, it is expected that only one privileged app will be managing contacts through this API. I believe all apps who require contacts info can speak directly to the contacts manager app. 07:52:49 zoltan: That could be done via a Web Intents mechanism. 07:53:22 Sakari: How does this work with a hybrid implementation of Contacts API (part native, part web layer) like Tizen? 07:53:56 Sakari: How does a native contacts manager get integrated into such a mechanism? 07:54:28 mounir: (scribing what I said earlier): we should be careful in allowing any implementation to extend an API by using a magic string like serviceID. If tomorrow we have an implementation that allows you to use Facebook APIs by using serviceId='facebook', you might require everyone to implement this. It would be added to the Web Platform. We could imagine content that uses the same interfaces but not any implementation to plug anything in the Web Platform. 07:54:40 Josh_Soref: If a Web Intents feature becomes popular, then all web apps should be expected to use it. 07:55:29 mounir: (scribing what I said earlier): I would like to see applications like Twitter or Facebook that would provide an address book and applications could access it, a way or another - which would need to be defined. 07:55:46 q? 07:56:39 @mounir: you don't standardize the serviceId's, so you don't mandate implementing magic strings 07:57:02 the value of serviceId is implementation specific 07:57:02 Sakari: We have a problem in that we have a native access to a contacts DB, and we need to provide a non-native (web way) to access this DB in absence of a privileged contacts manager app. 07:57:02 Present+ Jungkee_Song 07:57:11 Josh_Soref; You will need to implement a privileged contacts manager app. 07:57:18 it is unique in the device, but not globally unique 07:57:20 Sakari: Contacts API is how we solve the problem. 07:57:43 q? 07:57:49 Josh_Soref: I don't see the use case for having multiple contacts applications managing a single store. 07:58:26 Josh_Soref: I don't believe specific implementation issues should drive the API requirement. 07:58:29 zkis has joined #sysapps 07:58:42 q? 07:59:03 q+ to note that DAP hashed out the same issues two years ago 07:59:04 Chris: It may not be just management of the store - it could also be synching. 07:59:04 q- 07:59:17 q+ to ask what the hybrid mode changes exactly 07:59:48 Josh_Soref: Do you really want multiple apps doing simultaneous synching? It would be better to have a single app handling synching on behalf of all other apps. 08:01:26 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:01:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 08:01:44 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 08:02:17 gmandyam_ has joined #sysapps 08:03:50 Josh_Soref: Every native system has a way of a single app providing notifications to subscirbing apps. We would have to define an API for broadcasting 'mutations'. 08:04:24 Mounir: We (Mozilla) want this API, and Tizen (Intel) wants this API (Contacts API). 08:06:17 q+ 08:06:20 q? 08:06:37 ack anssik 08:06:37 anssik, you wanted to note that DAP hashed out the same issues two years ago 08:06:45 AK: The same discussion happened in the DAP working group two year ago. You (esp. the editors) may want to take a look at the now obsoleted version of the Contacts API and Contacts Writer API from DAP for inspiration, use cases, security and privacy considerations etc. 08:07:02 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-contacts-api-20110616/ 08:07:02 -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/default/contacts/Writer.html 08:07:27 AK: The DAP proposal used a concept of 'categories' -- think them as tags/labels associated with each Contact object. 08:08:23 ScribeNick: dsr 08:08:27 q? 08:08:33 ack Suresh 08:09:05 jplyle has joined #sysapps 08:09:25 gmandyam has joined #sysapps 08:09:39 SC: there was a concern that the web would be forced to implement the contact API, but that isn't the case. 08:10:32 SC: we have common use cases to manage contacts in multiple places, and a service id would be valuable for distinguishing the source of the contact. 08:10:38 q? 08:10:40 ack mounir 08:10:40 mounir, you wanted to ask what the hybrid mode changes exactly 08:10:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:10:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-sysapps-minutes.html anssik 08:11:29 ML: asks Chris to explain how the Tizen hybrid implementation effects the API. 08:12:21 ack chris 08:12:25 ML: DO native applications access contacts through an API too? Chris: yes. 08:12:39 dsuwirya has joined #sysapps 08:13:38 CD: we need to make contacts consistent, I want to change the remove method to use an id instead of contact to match other APIs 08:13:44 q? 08:13:50 q+ 08:13:59 https://github.com/sysapps/contacts-manager-api/issues/9 08:14:10 ack anssik 08:15:03 AK: Cordova have implemented the DAP contacts API and wonder if you have any developer feedback to share with us, and has this resulted in any changes? 08:15:40 -> http://docs.phonegap.com/en/edge/cordova_contacts_contacts.md.html 08:16:08 FM: It is based upon the DAP spec from 2 years ago. Not much feedback, some problems on deletion and changing category labels. The common usage is querying. 08:16:25 AK: do you expose contacts from Facebook or twitter through this API? 08:16:38 FM: I would need to go back and check. 08:16:56 q+ 08:17:18 EF: continuing with the review of the spec, looking at section 8 (ContactField) 08:17:22 q+ 08:17:43 q+ 08:18:03 ack chris 08:18:19 Suresh has joined #sysapps 08:19:09 CM: I sent an email on the list and don't think we reached an agreement. I would like to change the type field which currently holds both the XXX and YYY based upon VCard. 08:19:47 ML: DAP was using a boolean. 08:19:49 It would be better to split them, and I am in favour of a boolean. 08:20:09 gmandyam has joined #sysapps 08:20:59 s/XXX/marker for a preferred address/ 08:21:10 s/YYY/type of contact address/ 08:21:28 type: ["home", "pref"] 08:21:41 value: "foobar" 08:21:42 ZK: technically, the field is a set of tags. 08:22:08 Josh: How do you have a PREF=home and a PREF=work in the current system? Where is PREF? Chris: VCard does not restrict it. 08:22:34 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 08:22:52 Jungkee has joined #sysapps 08:22:55 SC: the use case for PREF is to simplify dialing for the user by avoiding having to pick from a set of contacts. 08:23:10 s/contacts/addresses/ 08:23:11 ML: Should we copy what DAP is doing for this? It makes things simpler to understand. Boolean for Pref. Two entries: one for voice, one for text. The application can merge entries. 08:23:42 q- 08:23:55 Discussion centers on moving PREF into separate boolean attribute. 08:24:20 EF: I'm fine with moving PREF to a separate attribute. Differences in versions of vCard - not the only change. PREF has been added to a number of additional fields. 08:24:20 s/Discussion/[ Discussion/ 08:24:24 ML: we should look at how this was handled in DAP. 08:24:25 q+ to ask why we want to follow vcard so much 08:24:27 s/attribute./attribute. ]/ 08:24:35 I add alignmenet issue with DAP WG to GH 08:24:40 https://github.com/sysapps/contacts-manager-api/issues/10 08:24:42 q+ to say "because tantek demands it" 08:24:47 q- 08:24:52 q+ Josh_Soref to say "because tantek demands it" 08:24:59 EF: most of the implementations are not VCard 3, but instead VCard 2.1 08:25:21 for pref support by platform, search "pref" at: http://docs.phonegap.com/en/edge/cordova_contacts_contacts.md.html 08:25:23 https://github.com/sysapps/contacts-manager-api/issues/11 08:26:00 On Android, always false as PREF is not supported. Windows phone would have it. 08:26:18 s/On/FM: On/ 08:26:46 ML: most people these days have more than one phone number, so PREF is valuable? 08:26:49 JS: What happens when I try to set PREF to true on Android? 08:26:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:26:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 08:27:06 Answer no effect. 08:27:24 JS: Assuming that you decided not to support PREF, would you do it such that when you tried to write to PREF you could find out that it didn't do anything? 08:27:58 JS: An event should be fired? Listening for the absence of an event is hard :) 08:28:00 You could listen for the contact changed event... 08:28:01 q? 08:28:11 q+ 08:29:16 ML: lets open an issue on splitting PREF off to a boolean and keeping type as an array 08:30:15 CD: Only one element in the array must be marked as PREF 08:30:18 q+ 08:30:18 SC: does the contact manager enforce that there is only one address marked as preferred. 08:30:27 q? 08:30:28 ack zkis 08:30:28 answer yes 08:30:49 ZK: It is not possible to unmerge merged contacts. Type field would help? 08:30:56 ML: Doubt the spec will allow this. 08:31:01 s/yes/yes [but it's underspecified how that happens, and if you discover that it happened ] 08:31:30 ZK: what if the user is allowed to put whatever he likes? 08:31:46 q+ to ask if vCard export via this API is an UC we want to support, if not, we can simplify 08:31:46 ack mounir 08:31:47 mounir, you wanted to ask why we want to follow vcard so much 08:31:55 Josh: can the user put home and work into the type field? 08:32:07 Add an example to show that you can select both home and work 08:32:10 ML: yes, that would be fine. 08:32:10 s/into/into together/ 08:32:22 ML: Why was following vCard so important? 08:32:24 s/into together/together into/ 08:32:25 ML: why is VCard compatibility so important? 08:32:39 q? 08:32:54 Chris: a lot of work on standardization has already been done, and we believe that compatibility is important for merging. 08:33:00 dcheng3 has joined #sysapps 08:33:02 ML: Could imagine a tool to transform objects TO vCard? 08:33:30 ML: this draft follows Vcard for naming, even when it is not needed. 08:33:49 ML: vCard was tried to be followed even when unnecessary? Even though suggested by Mozilla. 08:33:51 Chris: adr for address is very confusing for example. 08:34:03 s/needed/needed [except for the Name field which is 'fn' in vCard]/ 08:34:12 ML: Should be able to export to vCard, but following the API exactly is a bad idea. "Because vCard is doing it" is a bad idea 08:34:39 ML: the rationale is when you want to import and export contacts. 08:35:13 ML: so long as you can map correctly between this and VCard, that is sufficient. 08:35:20 JS: Is there a round-tripping requirement from vCard to internal back to vCard? 08:35:29 Josh: is there a requirement for round tripping without loss? 08:35:45 Suresh: loss will be inevitable in some cases. 08:36:06 ML: I don't believe we have a requirement for lossless round tripping 08:36:23 EF: In some cases, if we don't follow the same name, import and export wont work/ Birthday is straightforward, but 'name' is harder - Pick/vCard/Other APIs have different semantics. 08:36:35 q? 08:36:37 EF: I compared the Mozilla definition and VCard and had quite a bit of trouble 08:36:39 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 08:36:42 Josh_Soref: +1 08:37:03 ML: we should have a requirement for how the fields map to VCard. 08:37:21 Marcos: we could do this as an informative spec 08:37:36 Suresh: yes, we could have this as a table in an appendix 08:37:49 In who's interest is it to follow vCard? JS: No user will actually use it. 08:37:52 Josh: 99% of people haven't read the VCard spec and won't want to 08:38:20 chaals has joined #sysapps 08:38:47 ML: can we state that we are trying support import and export to VCard, but not lossless roundtripping. 08:39:05 q? 08:39:14 Suresh: there will be compatibility but not 100% 08:39:19 https://github.com/sysapps/contacts-manager-api/issues/12 08:39:29 ack Josh_Soref 08:39:29 Josh_Soref, you wanted to say "because tantek demands it" 08:39:30 ack Josh_Soref 08:39:35 ack eduardo 08:39:35 q+ 08:40:18 ack anssik 08:40:18 anssik, you wanted to ask if vCard export via this API is an UC we want to support, if not, we can simplify 08:40:26 q+ eduardo 08:41:28 AK: do we want to support a use case for vCard export? 08:41:41 jplyle has joined #sysapps 08:41:45 Marcos: do we want to make import/export to vCard part of the API? 08:41:49 ML: no. 08:42:34 q- eduardo 08:42:40 Suresh has joined #sysapps 08:43:08 EF: I am fine with the change of PREF to a boolean, but want to also allow it in type for now. 08:43:28 ack chris 08:43:31 q+ 08:43:32 Chris: you also don't support type for those fields 08:43:34 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 08:43:44 Chris: I've never seen a carrier follow it. 08:43:51 ML: FirefoxOS Will because Telefonica asked for it. 08:44:20 q+ Josh_Soref 08:44:28 ack Suresh 08:44:31 jmajnert_ has joined #sysapps 08:44:33 Suresh: how do you find it out? 08:44:35 EF: customers want to find out what the carrier is for a given number 08:44:42 chris: you often cannot 08:44:46 scribe: timeless 08:44:51 marcos: that's ok 08:44:59 chris: this you won't be able to export to vCard 08:45:09 mounir: you wanted to have `origin` in vCard 08:45:19 gmandyam: there are extension fields in vCard for Twitter 08:45:29 chris: there's so reason to export the origin 08:45:39 mounir: you have a valid point that you can't export this (carrier) 08:45:47 chris: i'm sure there's some UC 08:45:55 eduardo: for an operator, it's important 08:45:59 chris: there will be a UI 08:46:06 marcos: i see a lot of people very concerned 08:46:09 ... in Portugal 08:46:16 ... I can see them importing this data themselves 08:46:22 q+ 08:46:26 ... caring if it's on Vodafone or Telefonica 08:46:28 q? 08:46:29 mounir: in Brazil 08:46:35 ... a lot of users have more than one plan 08:46:42 ... and depending on the people, they'd call on different phones 08:46:45 ... or multisim 08:46:50 ... using specific sim 08:47:00 chris: you can already store this in the `type` field 08:47:06 mounir: storing that in the type 08:47:10 ... is losing the real information 08:47:14 ... you have no idea it's a carrier 08:47:25 ... you have to know that the second item in the array is a carrier 08:47:29 ... it could be a blob/picture 08:47:39 ... i would listen to the fact, that this could actually be saved 08:47:48 ... but you can't have the info in all contacts application 08:47:59 Jungkee has joined #sysapps 08:48:02 ... if you have two contacts applications, they should both share 08:48:03 q? 08:48:05 ack JonathanJ1 08:48:08 ack Josh_Soref 08:48:20 Josh_Soref: US calling plans also discriminate by carrier 08:48:32 ... but in NAm, people change carrier randomly 08:48:33 q+ 08:48:54 Suresh has joined #sysapps 08:48:58 q+ 08:49:01 q- 08:51:05 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 08:51:07 q? 08:51:17 lgombos: i'm assuming a lot of solutions assume you're connected to the network 08:51:19 ack gmandyam 08:51:22 ack gmandyam 08:51:29 Josh_Soref: i'm concerned that the information will be stale 08:51:38 dka has joined #sysapps 08:51:47 gmandyam: is any application allowed to set this value, or only privileged? 08:51:52 chris: we don't have per-field permissions 08:52:02 gmandyam: is the intention that any app with write permissions to have this 08:52:08 mounir: you can do way more nasty stuff 08:52:21 ... you could remove, change the number, replace it w/ a fee-number 08:52:27 ... there's no mention of permissions for the api 08:53:00 gmandyam: there's a permission model for this in the runtime security spec 08:53:06 q+ Marcos 08:53:09 q? 08:53:16 ack Suresh 08:53:17 ack Suresh 08:53:19 Suresh: on the carrier field 08:53:27 ... it's sort of almost tying it to a service 08:53:32 ... without that, it's almost useless 08:53:37 ... i don't think systems have this built in 08:53:54 ... does it fit into the 80-20? 08:53:54 q? 08:54:05 chris: the user could enter the value in the phonebook 08:54:06 [I added a suggestion to vCard import/export issue : "To clarify, we should mention in the spec that a vCard import/export API is out of scope as parsing and serializing can be efficiently done in JavaScript, and libraries are readily available." added to https://github.com/sysapps/contacts-manager-api/issues/12 ] 08:54:48 http://www.gsma.com/technicalprojects/pathfinder/pathfinder-services/number-portability-discovery-service 08:54:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:54:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 08:55:24 ack Marcos 08:55:30 dcheng3: there's 411.com 08:55:30 https://github.com/sysapps/contacts-manager-api/issues/13 08:55:43 Marcos: it's weird having an object that extends a field 08:55:50 ... can it be merged back in 08:55:59 chris: Carrier isn't specific to ContactField 08:56:05 ... it's specific to the ... 08:56:13 Marcos: can we merge this stuff together 08:56:33 ... every time you add something, you add it to the Window object 08:56:59 Marcos: you have this `contact thing` 08:57:10 Suresh: putting it in the type field makes sense 08:58:25 mounir: more general issue of not polluting the window scope w/ objects 08:59:20 https://github.com/sysapps/contacts-manager-api/issues/14 08:59:36 s/carrier randomly/carrier randomly -- why not have the carriers provide an API to look up carrier by phone number? -- this exists in NAm [partially for number portability], and i believe there's DNS like system that operators use for this anyway]/ 08:59:49 Suresh: where does this fit in the 80-20 rule? 08:59:56 ... or is it a corner case 09:00:13 anssik: can you provide a couple of UCs that are the most valuable 09:00:22 eduardo: the main UC is user knowing the carrier of a contact 09:00:32 ... because it affects carrier billing for connections 09:00:40 Suresh: but if you aren't relying on a service 09:00:50 ... and it's just me relying on the user, i could put it in the note field 09:01:06 eduardo: but that's not standard, if there's a standard, you can build a UI around it 09:01:20 anssik: can you expand on the charging 09:01:28 eduardo: it depends on the region and operator 09:01:34 q? 09:01:35 ... many charging plans are linked to the carrier of the callee 09:01:46 ... a plan w/ unlimited minutes to users on the user's carrier 09:01:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:01:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 09:01:55 ... but a pay-per-minute for other plans 09:02:04 anssik: is this sufficient? 09:02:19 Josh_Soref: does the user know which plan they're on? 09:02:35 chaals: in lots of the world where this is an issue, users do know which plan they're on 09:02:45 anssik: is the real question "how expensive is this"? 09:02:49 mounir: we don't have that 09:02:55 anssik: i'm wondering if charging is the UC 09:03:11 mounir: calling Orange is 2x calling Vodafone 09:03:26 chris: isn't the question 09:03:34 ... are you going to have several phone numbers for the same contact 09:03:41 q? 09:03:44 chaals: yes 09:03:50 eduardo: but they have multiple sims 09:04:02 chaals: the api for charging info doesn't exist 09:04:05 ... you have 4 sim cards 09:04:11 ... you have so many minutes by next tuesday 09:04:52 dcheng3: I'm asking people at our company 09:04:58 q+ 09:05:11 eduardo: "MoviStar" is the Telefonica brand 09:05:19 ack lgombos 09:05:20 ... the billing plan is 100 pages 09:05:25 lgombos: i understand the UC 09:05:26 dka has joined #sysapps 09:05:32 ... i'm not sure it's the right abstraction 09:05:47 mounir: i want to move on 09:05:49 lgombos: i disagree 09:06:08 http://contacts-manager-api.sysapps.org/#idl-def-ContactAddress 09:06:28 q+ 09:06:41 eduardo: type includes pref [same issue as before] 09:06:45 Marcosc has joined #sysapps 09:06:54 ack chris 09:06:55 ack chris 09:07:03 chris: wouldn't it be useful to have GPS coords for the addres 09:07:05 gmandyam: no 09:07:11 s/addres/address/ 09:07:20 gmandyam: GeoLoc v2 had a reverse api 09:07:23 ... and they shelved it 09:07:27 ... because there was no demand 09:07:33 mounir: if you're not online? 09:07:40 gmandyam: developers can do it themselves 09:07:44 chris: not a big deal 09:07:48 mounir: seems like a good UC to me 09:08:07