IRC log of i18n on 2013-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:04:00 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #i18n

15:04:00 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-i18n-irc

15:04:02 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

15:04:02 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #i18n

15:04:04 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 4186

15:04:04 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago

15:04:05 [trackbot]

Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

15:04:05 [trackbot]

Date: 11 April 2013

15:04:16 [r12a-limechat]

zakim, dial richard

15:04:17 [Zakim]

ok, r12a-limechat; the call is being made

15:04:21 [Norbert]

zakim, who is noisy?

15:04:21 [Zakim]

sorry, Norbert, I don't know what conference this is

15:04:34 [r12a-limechat]

ouch, noisy!

15:04:36 [aphillip]

zakim, this is I18N

15:04:36 [Zakim]

ok, aphillip; that matches I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM

15:04:45 [Norbert]

zakim, who is noisy?

15:04:52 [Zakim]

+aphillip

15:04:55 [Zakim]

Norbert, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

15:04:59 [r12a-limechat]

hmm

15:05:14 [r12a-limechat]

zakim, mute ??P18

15:05:15 [Zakim]

??P18 should now be muted

15:05:24 [r12a-limechat]

who is ??P18 ?

15:05:40 [aphillip]

trackbot, prepare teleconference

15:05:42 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

15:05:44 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 4186

15:05:45 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago

15:05:45 [trackbot]

Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

15:05:45 [trackbot]

Date: 11 April 2013

15:06:52 [r12a-limechat]

??P18 you can link to irc on http://irc.w3.org/

15:07:08 [r12a-limechat]

zakim, unmute ??P18

15:07:08 [Zakim]

sorry, r12a-limechat, I don't know what conference this is

15:07:24 [r12a-limechat]

zakim, this is i18n

15:07:24 [Zakim]

ok, r12a-limechat; that matches I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM

15:07:35 [r12a-limechat]

zakim, who's here?

15:07:35 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Norbert, ??P18 (muted), Richard, aphillip

15:07:37 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, r12a-too, aphillip, Norbert, r12a-limechat, trackbot

15:07:45 [r12a-limechat]

zakim, unmute ??P18

15:07:45 [Zakim]

??P18 should no longer be muted

15:07:52 [aphillip]

agenda+ bidi

15:08:06 [aphillip]

agenda+ HTML longdesc

15:08:26 [aphillip]

agenda+ review radar

15:08:29 [r12a-limechat]

zakim, drop ??P18

15:08:29 [Zakim]

??P18 is being disconnected

15:08:31 [Zakim]

-??P18

15:09:12 [r12a-limechat]

zakim, who's here?

15:09:12 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Norbert, Richard, aphillip

15:09:13 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, Norbert, r12a-limechat, trackbot

15:09:23 [aphillip]

Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0005.html

15:09:29 [aphillip]

Chair: Addison Phillips

15:09:30 [JcK]

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15:09:42 [aphillip]

agenda+ ITS and ruby

15:10:23 [Zakim]

+JcK

15:10:26 [aphillip]

ScribeNick: aphillip

15:10:45 [aphillip]

Topic: Agenda

15:10:48 [aphillip]

agenda?

15:11:11 [aphillip]

Topic: Action Items

15:12:00 [r12a-limechat]

http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

15:12:40 [aphillip]

action-170: richard has ported document to respec

15:12:40 [trackbot]

Notes added to ACTION-170 Coordinate with richard regarding KLReq.

15:12:49 [aphillip]

... and is close to html5

15:13:19 [aphillip]

... sent to the Korean guys to fill in the Korean

15:13:30 [aphillip]

... and enlisted three of the six authors

15:14:14 [najib-ma]

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15:14:16 [aphillip]

... a few questions in document

15:14:25 [aphillip]

... need to know if will cover before review

15:14:35 [aphillip]

... also whether to wait on korean version

15:14:45 [aphillip]

... then will come to group looking for wide review

15:15:05 [Najib-ma_]

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15:15:56 [aphillip]

close ACTION-200

15:15:57 [trackbot]

Closed ACTION-200 Remind folks to review ITS item in the winter 388 email for next time (4 April).

15:16:36 [aphillip]

close ACTION-202

15:16:36 [trackbot]

Closed ACTION-202 Say we're satisfied with storageSize in ITS 2.0.

15:16:54 [aphillip]

Topic: Info Share

15:16:57 [fsasaki]

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15:16:59 [aharon]

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15:17:00 [aphillip]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:17:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip

15:17:14 [r12a]

https://www.w3.org/2013/06/ebooks/

15:17:21 [Najib-ma_]

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15:17:21 [aphillip]

richard: announced conf on ebooks

15:17:26 [aphillip]

... link above

15:17:36 [aphillip]

... idea is to get people from diff. languages and scripts

15:17:38 [Najib-ma_]

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15:17:51 [aphillip]

... raise issues in HTML5 and CSS that underlie ebooks

15:18:05 [aphillip]

.. and prioritize, feed to IG that is proposed

15:18:16 [aphillip]

... about ebooks in w3 technology

15:18:17 [Zakim]

+aharon

15:18:30 [aphillip]

norbert: plans to crash that party

15:19:35 [r12a]

http://www.w3.org/blog/International/2013/04/03/indic-layout-task-force-created/

15:19:49 [aphillip]

richard: created an indic layout task force

15:19:58 [aphillip]

... had a few people join the list

15:20:07 [Najib-ma_]

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15:20:10 [aharon]

zakim, mute me

15:20:10 [Zakim]

aharon should now be muted

15:20:35 [r12a]

http://www.w3.org/International/groups/indic-layout/

15:20:35 [aphillip]

action: richard: link indic TF's home page

15:20:35 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-204 - Link indic TF's home page [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-04-18].

15:20:43 [Najib-ma_]

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15:20:51 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip

15:21:02 [aphillip]

agenda?

15:21:24 [aphillip]

zakim, take up agendum 2

15:21:24 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "HTML longdesc" taken up [from aphillip]

15:21:45 [r12a]

http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/40

15:21:57 [aphillip]

richard: read longdesc

15:22:12 [Najib-ma]

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15:22:22 [aphillip]

richard: came up with two things

15:22:26 [aphillip]

... one is editorial nit

15:23:18 [aphillip]

... the other is that "invalid content" can be made available

15:23:23 [fsasaki_]

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15:23:28 [aphillip]

richard: suggests that shouldn't be let off

15:23:52 [aphillip]

... because it'll become confusing

15:24:17 [aphillip]

... and de facto supported and would need stuf like bidi and language and other markup

15:24:26 [aharon]

I agree about non-url in longdesc

15:24:26 [aphillip]

richard: okay to send?

15:25:02 [aphillip]

norbert: first one non-WG?

15:25:08 [aphillip]

addison: agree

15:25:15 [aphillip]

norbert: second one yes

15:25:19 [aphillip]

addison: agree

15:25:44 [aphillip]

chair: approve

15:26:19 [aphillip]

action: richard: send longdesc comment to HTML-WG

15:26:19 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-205 - Send longdesc comment to HTML-WG [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-04-18].

15:26:25 [aphillip]

agenda?

15:27:04 [aharon]

zakim, unmute me

15:27:04 [Zakim]

aharon should no longer be muted

15:27:30 [aphillip]

zakim, take up agendum 1

15:27:30 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "bidi" taken up [from aphillip]

15:27:36 [r12a]

http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation-new

15:27:37 [aphillip]

richard: working on wiki this week

15:27:43 [aphillip]

... maybe discuss

15:28:09 [aphillip]

richard: aharon gave me some text to use

15:28:19 [aphillip]

... "do we still need isolate embeddings"

15:28:33 [aphillip]

... aharon suggesting:

15:28:38 [r12a]

Unfortunately, existing bidi pages contain all sorts of bidi cruft that

15:28:39 [r12a]

> only works given the old embed semantics (and may not work in modern

15:28:39 [r12a]

> versions of Internet Explorer). This does not mean that embed semantics

15:28:40 [r12a]

> really are necessary. The desired outcome can still be obtained with

15:28:42 [r12a]

> isolate semantics, usually with simpler, clearer markup. Here are a

15:28:44 [r12a]

> couple of examples.

15:29:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip

15:29:24 [aphillip]

richard: been downplaying problem, thinking not that large

15:29:33 [aphillip]

... but solution A could break a lot of pages?

15:29:40 [aphillip]

... is that not necessarily case?

15:29:46 [aphillip]

... question for aharon

15:29:49 [aphillip]

... also...

15:29:55 [aphillip]

... if change semantics of @dir

15:30:20 [fsasaki]

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15:30:21 [aphillip]

... maybe add @isolate that is default on

15:30:34 [aphillip]

... and use @isolate=no to turn off

15:32:23 [aphillip]

addison: breaks existing pages?

15:32:38 [aphillip]

aharon: mentioning as possibility

15:32:41 [aphillip]

... not a new idea

15:32:45 [aphillip]

... html came up with it

15:32:51 [aphillip]

... but in opposite direction

15:33:05 [aphillip]

... add @isolate=on to turn on

15:33:25 [aphillip]

... need to dispose of idea, must deal with it

15:33:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip

15:33:50 [aphillip]

aharon: not sure about the question?

15:33:58 [aphillip]

... didn't intend to worry you :-)

15:34:08 [aphillip]

... IE semantics changed

15:34:18 [aphillip]

... is pages depend on this, got broke in IE

15:34:34 [aphillip]

... so not so worried about it

15:34:43 [aphillip]

... more concerned about different idea

15:34:52 [aphillip]

... old embed semantics in some applications or cases

15:35:00 [aphillip]

... might be a reason to use them

15:35:06 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip

15:35:13 [aphillip]

aharon: wanted to explore

15:35:19 [aphillip]

... concluded that it si not true

15:35:23 [aphillip]

s/si/is/

15:35:42 [aphillip]

norbert: embedding semantics were wrong all along?

15:35:56 [aphillip]

aharon: no, but pages that depend on them work better with isolate

15:36:58 [aphillip]

aharon: browsers no longer interop anyway

15:37:08 [aphillip]

norbert: not a problem for anybody?

15:37:39 [aphillip]

richard: two exmaples used are not affected on IE

15:37:56 [aphillip]

aharon: examples no longer work on IE

15:38:13 [aphillip]

... if you load local page, it uses IE7 semantics

15:38:21 [aphillip]

... if you load from web

15:38:29 [aphillip]

... uses IE9 semantics

15:38:53 [aphillip]

richard: some things work better because of IE

15:39:06 [aphillip]

... text made is sound like breaking huge number of pages

15:39:14 [aphillip]

... maybe some but not desparately bad

15:39:30 [aphillip]

aharon: this is the para about bidi cruft?

15:39:43 [aphillip]

... try to review that one

15:39:56 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip

15:40:07 [aphillip]

richard: includes workarounds there

15:40:17 [aphillip]

... <quotes page>

15:40:19 [r12a]

Here are a couple of examples of edge cases where authors have put workarounds in place that try to make embedded text behave like isolated text. This bidi cruft only works given the old embed semantics

15:40:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip

15:40:32 [aphillip]

aharon: will reconsider para

15:40:40 [aphillip]

richard: still on track for solution A being preferred

15:40:44 [aphillip]

... think it is best

15:40:51 [aphillip]

... change semantics of @dir to make isolating

15:40:56 [aphillip]

aharon: agre

15:41:06 [aphillip]

JcK: agree

15:41:07 [Najib-ma]

I'm not hot to change semantic of @dir

15:41:32 [aphillip]

richard: means to reply to Najib's email

15:41:49 [aphillip]

aharon: I sent a reply, need to refresh memory of that

15:42:03 [aphillip]

norbert: last week mostly discussed B

15:42:06 [aphillip]

s/week/time/

15:42:24 [aphillip]

norbert: need to refresh

15:44:00 [r12a]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Mar/0027.html

15:44:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip

15:44:48 [aphillip]

aharon: once spec changes, FF, Chrome will rapidly update

15:45:00 [aphillip]

... and IE is already incompatible and mostly isolates

15:45:08 [aphillip]

... so this will improve interop

15:45:11 [aphillip]

... for authors

15:45:36 [aphillip]

... never explained and use of @dir *usage* doesn't really change

15:46:07 [aphillip]

... use of LRM etc.

15:46:09 [aphillip]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0000.html

15:46:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip

15:46:52 [aphillip]

richard: gimme a day or so to finish up changes

15:46:59 [aphillip]

... aharon to add some text

15:47:05 [aphillip]

... will send to list

15:47:12 [aphillip]

... suggesting a read-over

15:48:32 [aphillip]

action: richard: to announce to the member list for review next week with a goal of publishing for wide revew

15:48:33 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-206 - Announce to the member list for review next week with a goal of publishing for wide revew [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-04-18].

15:48:47 [aphillip]

s/announce/announce bidi wiki/

15:49:12 [aphillip]

agenda?

15:49:33 [aphillip]

aharon: wanted to update on an issue

15:49:43 [aphillip]

... bug on html5

15:49:47 [aphillip]

... dir=auto

15:49:54 [aphillip]

... and human readable attributes

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15:50:02 [aphillip]

... like @title or @placeholder

15:50:21 [aphillip]

... asked for a simple thing

15:50:26 [aphillip]

... if element with @dir=auto