IRC log of rdf-wg on 2013-04-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:14:14 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:14:14 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-rdf-wg-irc
14:14:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:14:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:14:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 73394
14:14:18 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 46 minutes
14:14:19 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:14:19 [trackbot]
Date: 03 April 2013
14:15:02 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.04.03
14:25:54 [ivan]
Regrets: Guus, DavidW, AndyS
14:42:55 [Guus]
Guus has joined #rdf-wg
14:52:38 [gavinc]
Ugh, it seems my update today is: No I haven't had time to send the Grant requests or setup something to deploy to 2013/turtle-testsuite/
14:57:55 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:02 [Zakim]
+GavinC
14:58:58 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:59:20 [Zakim]
+Ivan
14:59:28 [ivan]
Chair: Ivan
14:59:29 [Zakim]
+??P4
14:59:47 [AZ]
AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:00 [pfps]
pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:15 [yvesr]
Zakim: ??P4 is me
15:00:17 [Zakim]
+cgreer
15:00:23 [yvesr]
Zakim, ??P4 is me
15:00:23 [Zakim]
+yvesr; got it
15:00:26 [cgreer]
cgreer has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:42 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
15:00:50 [yvesr]
ivan, sorry, a bit slow today :)
15:00:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.908.251.aaaa
15:00:52 [Zakim]
+??P8
15:00:56 [TallTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:56 [Zakim]
+TallTed; got it
15:00:57 [gkellogg]
zakim, I am ??P8
15:00:58 [TallTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:00:58 [Zakim]
+gkellogg; got it
15:00:58 [Zakim]
TallTed should now be muted
15:01:02 [pfps]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:01:02 [Zakim]
+pfps; got it
15:01:06 [Zakim]
+??P13
15:01:16 [manu]
zakim, I am ??P13
15:01:16 [Zakim]
+manu; got it
15:01:17 [Zakim]
+??P14
15:01:26 [AZ]
Zakim, ??P14 is me
15:01:26 [Zakim]
+AZ; got it
15:01:30 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see GavinC, Sandro, Ivan, yvesr, cgreer, TallTed (muted), pfps, gkellogg, manu, AZ
15:01:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cgreer, pfps, AZ, Guus, Zakim, RRSAgent, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, Arnaud, gavinc, gkellogg, manu, yvesr, ericP, manu1, davidwood, mischat, sandro, trackbot
15:02:17 [Zakim]
+??P20
15:02:19 [ericP]
waiting for HCLS call to finish
15:02:24 [SteveH]
Zakim, ??P20 is me
15:02:25 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
15:03:53 [ivan]
zakim, pick a victim
15:03:53 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveH
15:04:06 [SteveH]
sorry, I'm not on a speakerphone, so typing is not easy
15:04:17 [ivan]
zakim, pick a victim
15:04:17 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose GavinC
15:04:26 [ivan]
zakim, pick a victim
15:04:26 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yvesr
15:04:31 [yvesr]
yep
15:04:36 [yvesr]
scribe: yvesr
15:04:45 [Zakim]
+cygri
15:04:56 [cygri]
cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:00 [pfps]
can we start up the scribe list again? it is much easier to scribe if one knows in advance
15:05:01 [yvesr]
ivan: We are back in schedule for the TZ, until October
15:05:28 [ivan]
-> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-03-27 minutes of last meeting
15:05:34 [pfps]
minutes are fine
15:05:39 [markus]
markus has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:50 [markus]
zakim, code?
15:05:50 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), markus
15:06:01 [Zakim]
+??P25
15:06:10 [yvesr]
RESOLVED: Minutes from the 2013-03-27 are accepted
15:06:25 [markus]
zakim, ??P25 is me
15:06:25 [Zakim]
+markus; got it
15:06:38 [yvesr]
ivan: there are a number of actions to review
15:06:48 [Souri]
Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:06:48 [cygri]
ACTION-222?
15:06:48 [trackbot]
ACTION-222 -- Richard Cyganiak to work with PatH to make sure there is no duplicated content between RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics -- due 2013-01-23 -- OPEN
15:06:48 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/222
15:06:52 [yvesr]
ivan: 221 and 222 are the same action, on cygri and path
15:07:15 [Zakim]
+Souri
15:07:20 [yvesr]
cygri: this is not something that needs to be addressed at this point
15:07:24 [zwu2]
zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:28 [Zakim]
+Guus_Schreiber
15:07:29 [yvesr]
... i'd rather leave it open at the moment
15:07:30 [pfps]
In my opinion Concepts and Semantics are not totally aligned, but there are no serious issues.
15:07:51 [cygri]
pfps, I agree. Needs a careful review.
15:07:56 [cygri]
ACTION-226?
15:07:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-226 -- Richard Cyganiak to implement ISSUE-111 resolution -- due 2013-02-13 -- OPEN
15:07:56 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/226
15:08:01 [yvesr]
ivan: there is another action on cygri's name - ACTION-226
15:08:12 [cygri]
ACTION-227?
15:08:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-227 -- Richard Cyganiak to present concrete wording for ISSUE-105 -- due 2013-02-13 -- OPEN
15:08:12 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/227
15:08:23 [yvesr]
cygri: ACTION-226 is not done
15:08:29 [Zakim]
+zwu2
15:08:37 [yvesr]
... as is ACTION-227
15:08:51 [yvesr]
ivan: ACTION-332 was on sandro
15:08:57 [gavinc]
Issue is now mine.
15:09:02 [yvesr]
sandro: my understanding is that we can close it
15:09:07 [yvesr]
trackbot: CLOSE ISSUE-332
15:09:08 [trackbot]
Error closing ISSUE-332 - the response from Tracker was missing data. Please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
15:09:28 [cgreer]
s/332/232
15:09:36 [TallTed]
yvesr - it's action, not issue
15:09:41 [sandro]
close action-232
15:09:41 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-232 Learn about the w3c test suite license.
15:10:02 [sandro]
action-233?
15:10:02 [trackbot]
ACTION-233 -- Gavin Carothers to publish the consolidated test suite -- due 2013-03-06 -- OPEN
15:10:02 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/233
15:10:16 [yvesr]
ivan: is ACTION-233 more than publishing the consolidated test suite?
15:10:17 [tbaker]
tbaker has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:29 [pchampin]
pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:33 [yvesr]
ivan: we have 3 actions all on the JSON-LD review
15:10:52 [sandro]
close action-240
15:10:52 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-240 Review JSON-LD API document.
15:10:54 [yvesr]
ivan: i believe 3 have been done
15:10:56 [Zakim]
+EricP
15:11:00 [Zakim]
+??P32
15:11:20 [pchampin]
zakim, ??P32 is me
15:11:20 [Zakim]
+pchampin; got it
15:11:26 [cygri]
ACTION-239?
15:11:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-239 -- Richard Cyganiak to review Semantics draft regarding move to FPWD -- due 2013-03-13 -- OPEN
15:11:26 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/239
15:11:26 [sandro]
action-241?
15:11:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-241 -- Zhe Wu to review JSON-LD API document -- due 2013-03-27 -- OPEN
15:11:27 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/241
15:11:52 [yvesr]
close action-239
15:11:52 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-239 Review Semantics draft regarding move to FPWD.
15:12:13 [cgreer]
close action-238
15:12:13 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-238 Review the JSON-LD syntax document, after Sandro's review has been taken into account.
15:12:29 [yvesr]
action-235?
15:12:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-235 -- Antoine Zimmermann to review RDF 1.1 Semantics -- due 2013-03-06 -- CLOSED
15:12:29 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/235
15:12:32 [yvesr]
action-236?
15:12:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-236 -- Guus Schreiber to put spec of scope bnodes in Concepts on agenda for 6 Mar -- due 2013-03-06 -- CLOSED
15:12:32 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/236
15:12:35 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
15:12:35 [Zakim]
pfps should now be muted
15:12:50 [gavinc]
Non NON NFC
15:13:00 [gavinc]
NFC only IRIs
15:13:19 [yvesr]
gavinc: the job was to delete the non-non nfc test from the test suite
15:13:44 [yvesr]
gavinc: i added an approval status to all of the tests, make them all approved, and added a rejected column for that one
15:13:55 [gavinc]
s/gavinc/ericP
15:14:11 [yvesr]
ericP: i expect there will be some pushback
15:14:15 [ivan]
close action-246
15:14:15 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-246 Remove #localName_with_PN_CHARS_BASE_character_boundaries.
15:14:24 [ivan]
action-245?
15:14:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-245 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to (with Sandro) to copy or proxy Turtletests2013 to http://www.w3.org/2013/Turtletests/...,">http://www.w3.org/2013/Turtletests/..., updating all base or ttl references to http://example/base/ to be http://www.w3.org/2013/Turtletests/ -- due 2013-04-03 -- OPEN
15:14:25 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/245
15:14:28 [yvesr]
... as people need to look up approved tests before running them
15:14:32 [gavinc]
That's dependent on me finishing
15:14:52 [yvesr]
ericP: has the license issue been sorted?
15:14:55 [yvesr]
gavinc: no, not yet
15:15:04 [ivan]
action-225?
15:15:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-225 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to update extension request with Turtle publication dates -- due 2013-01-30 -- OPEN
15:15:04 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/225
15:15:30 [ivan]
close action-225
15:15:30 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-225 Update extension request with Turtle publication dates.
15:15:39 [yvesr]
ericP: it is overtaken by events - it was for the CR publication
15:16:01 [yvesr]
ericP: about ACTION-245, I am still getting comments from the list on tests
15:16:08 [yvesr]
... we made a decision last week to approve the tests
15:16:19 [yvesr]
... some of the corrections I am seeing from the comments list are corrections
15:16:27 [gavinc]
We had invalid Test case N-Triples as well
15:16:50 [yvesr]
... escaping, case, etc. - should we normalise what to do with escaped characters?
15:17:04 [yvesr]
gavinc: we did resolve that - there is only one way to represent each character in n-triples
15:17:20 [yvesr]
gavinc: there are a couple of edge-cases
15:17:39 [yvesr]
gavinc: if we get further comments, we'll need to reapprove the test suite
15:18:03 [ivan]
Topic: JSON-LD
15:18:04 [yvesr]
ivan: next topic is JSON-LD
15:18:22 [yvesr]
ivan: We have 3 reviews, could we get an overview of them?
15:18:32 [yvesr]
manu: Markus has been dealing with the comments
15:18:42 [yvesr]
manu: We do have one thing the RDF WG probably wants to look at
15:18:45 [Zakim]
-EricP
15:18:49 [yvesr]
markus: most of the feedbacks are editorial
15:18:59 [yvesr]
markus: sandro replied he's happy with the changes
15:19:08 [yvesr]
markus: one comment was about the algorithm - they are too long
15:19:14 [yvesr]
markus: but we decided not to change them
15:19:27 [yvesr]
markus: it was agreed the decision was accepted
15:19:37 [Zakim]
+Philippe
15:19:49 [yvesr]
Zakim, who is speaking?
15:20:01 [Zakim]
yvesr, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: markus (3%), zwu2 (99%)
15:20:24 [yvesr]
zwu2: It would be nice to modularise the algorithm description - it is very long
15:20:36 [yvesr]
zwu2: I understand it is a big effort, so I am willing to let it pass
15:21:04 [yvesr]
manu: We did start out with a fairly modularised way of explaining the algorithm
15:21:28 [yvesr]
manu: when implementers were reading the spec, they were very confused, as you needed to jump between different points of the spec
15:22:00 [yvesr]
manu: implementators seem to prefer the non-modularized versions
15:22:03 [gavinc]
yay :D
15:22:11 [yvesr]
manu: as they are much easiers to read
15:22:18 [yvesr]
s/implementators/implementers
15:22:48 [yvesr]
manu: the algorithm are long and verbose for a reason
15:22:57 [yvesr]
manu: we want to be clear about what they're doing
15:23:07 [yvesr]
ivan: I think we can move on with this
15:23:32 [yvesr]
markus: the only other issue which hasn't been addressed is the data round-tripping section
15:23:51 [yvesr]
... where we specify how e.g. json true and false are converted to RDF
15:23:59 [sandro]
q+ to ask about lists-of-lists
15:24:02 [yvesr]
... sandro raised some concerns about that
15:24:18 [yvesr]
ivan: what about the third review from charles?
15:24:35 [yvesr]
manu: it was mostly editorial comments
15:24:51 [yvesr]
ivan: so we only need to discuss sandro's comment
15:25:08 [ivan]
ack sandro
15:25:08 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to ask about lists-of-lists
15:25:14 [yvesr]
markus: yes, i think that's right - we would be OK to go to LC
15:25:44 [sandro]
manu: we agreed to add At Risk for the list-of-lists thing
15:25:48 [yvesr]
gkellogg: marking the algorithms as 'at-risk' but it would cause a bit of a mess
15:26:03 [yvesr]
s/the algorithms/the list-of-lists
15:26:26 [yvesr]
markus: it's worth to say that list-of-lists are supported
15:26:43 [yvesr]
... but there isn't a simple way to express that in short-form in JSON-LD
15:26:57 [yvesr]
sandro: I missed the fact you could use first/rest
15:27:07 [yvesr]
... If you can, then I can live with it
15:27:18 [yvesr]
... I am certainly happy with the at-risk solution
15:27:27 [markus]
Here's the list of the features at risk: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON-LD_Features_at_Risk
15:27:36 [yvesr]
ivan: so the only other issue is the round-tripping?
15:27:41 [yvesr]
manu: yes
15:28:09 [yvesr]
sandro: I sent this in an email just before the meeting started
15:28:32 [yvesr]
sandro: If you have an RDF graph if you have things like doubles in it, which can be expressed in JSON
15:28:47 [yvesr]
sandro: there are situations where you can export to JSON and back again
15:28:53 [yvesr]
... and not end up with the same graph
15:29:01 [yvesr]
sandro: e.g. when the literal is not in canonical form
15:29:18 [yvesr]
sandro: or when using doubles
15:29:21 [Guus]
for the agena: see my admin message about the 4 FPWDs
15:29:40 [yvesr]
sandro: you could keep it in expanded type in JSON-LD rather than native type
15:29:58 [yvesr]
... which would ensure you end up with the same graph
15:30:04 [manu]
q+
15:30:05 [yvesr]
sandro: the question is, do we care?
15:30:14 [ivan]
ack manu
15:30:43 [yvesr]
manu: the guidance we give in the JSON-LD API spec is that if accuracy of numbers are important, use a string to express them
15:30:59 [yvesr]
... and type it with xsd:double
15:31:15 [yvesr]
... if you use JSON native types, then you will have rounding issues
15:31:39 [gkellogg]
that flag is in fromRDF, not for native JSON-LD
15:31:41 [yvesr]
... if the 'use native type' flag is off, then no rounding issues
15:31:48 [ericP]
iirc, XML Schema requires preservation of 18 digits on doubles
15:31:51 [TallTed]
may need to include something like -- http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms716298%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
15:31:58 [yvesr]
manu: The other advice we give in the spec is how to express the canonical lexical form
15:32:06 [TallTed]
which data types convert cleanly, which have issues such as were just flagged
15:32:08 [yvesr]
... there is an interoperability issue some of us are concerned about
15:32:14 [yvesr]
... captured in the test suite
15:32:30 [gavinc]
JSON has interop issues with large numbers ;) It's sadly not a JSON-LD issue
15:32:41 [yvesr]
... The guidance we tell people is that you must use the string format when you convert a string literal with an xsd:double datatype
15:32:42 [sandro]
q?
15:33:09 [gavinc]
+1 sounds very reasonable!
15:33:12 [TallTed]
explicit example is the numeric conversions page, here -- http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms714147%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
15:33:14 [yvesr]
manu: Do we want to do something else in the JSON-LD API spec?
15:33:16 [ivan]
q?
15:33:41 [gavinc]
q+
15:33:44 [yvesr]
sandro: I don't like the API flag - I don't think people are going to know how to use them
15:33:52 [yvesr]
... It depends on the data
15:33:56 [yvesr]
manu: It depends on the application
15:34:03 [TallTed]
q+
15:34:18 [TallTed]
Zakim, unmute me
15:34:18 [Zakim]
TallTed should no longer be muted
15:34:36 [ivan]
ack gavinc
15:34:37 [yvesr]
manu: We tried to make the documentation very clear around rounding errors introduced by native JSON datatypes
15:34:39 [cygri]
castToNativeType?
15:34:52 [yvesr]
gavinc: JSON and JS do not specify the exact behavior of numbers
15:35:09 [yvesr]
... they are plenty of incompatible JSON implementations in terms of numbers
15:35:18 [ivan]
ack TallTed
15:35:41 [yvesr]
TallTed: It would be worth introducing a table of conversions in the spec
15:36:03 [yvesr]
... What are the status messages you get back when errors are introduced?
15:36:23 [yvesr]
manu: We would have to make one table per implementation - which would be very hard
15:36:35 [yvesr]
s/per implementation/per javascript implementation
15:36:42 [yvesr]
gkellogg: it's also all the JSON processors
15:36:42 [sandro]
q?
15:36:49 [yvesr]
TallTed: so basically JSON doesn't preserve data?
15:36:57 [yvesr]
markus: It's just not specified
15:37:04 [gavinc]
or python! until you run out of memory bit!
15:37:09 [pchampin]
q+
15:37:28 [yvesr]
manu: lots of people use JSON to exchange data and it doesn't seem to have caused any issues
15:37:37 [ivan]
ack pchampin
15:37:41 [yvesr]
pchampin: I see two things about the useNativeDatatype flag
15:37:49 [yvesr]
... the first one is that you may have rounding problems
15:38:04 [yvesr]
... the second one is that even without it, you end up in an interoperability issue
15:38:17 [yvesr]
... it should be said in the specification
15:38:38 [yvesr]
... that round-tripping is not possible in this case
15:38:40 [sandro]
q?
15:38:44 [sandro]
q+
15:38:46 [manu]
q+
15:38:51 [manu]
q-
15:38:58 [ivan]
ack sandro
15:39:01 [yvesr]
pchampin: If you care about round tripping, this flag should be set to off
15:39:07 [TallTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:39:07 [Zakim]
TallTed should now be muted
15:39:26 [yvesr]
sandro: I know JS requires IEEE 24 bits, I didn't realise people implemented JSON at a lower level than JS
15:39:30 [pchampin]
pchampin: if I care about round tripping preserving the lexical values of literals, this flag should be set to off
15:39:41 [TallTed]
+1 sandro
15:39:49 [yvesr]
... If you care about data integrity - this flag should be set to off
15:40:19 [yvesr]
ivan: So if this is closed, where are we exactly wrt JSON-LD to LC?
15:40:29 [yvesr]
markus: That's the only remaining change we need to make
15:40:39 [sandro]
WebIDL
15:40:47 [yvesr]
ivan: the LC shows the design is done
15:41:08 [yvesr]
ivan: Let's discuss that later, but can we plan that next week we vote for LC?
15:41:10 [yvesr]
markus: sure
15:41:14 [gkellogg]
agreed
15:41:36 [yvesr]
ACTION: WG to resolve on LC status on 10/04/2013
15:41:36 [trackbot]
Error finding 'WG'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.
15:41:44 [manu]
So, we're going to shoot for a LC of JSON-LD and JSON-LD API for April 19th 2013...
15:41:48 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
15:41:48 [Zakim]
pfps should no longer be muted
15:41:56 [ivan]
Topic: redefinition of blank nodes
15:41:57 [yvesr]
ACTION: davidwood to resolve with WG on LC status of JSON-LD on 10/04/2013
15:41:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-249 - Resolve with WG on LC status of JSON-LD on 10/04/2013 [on David Wood - due 2013-04-10].
15:42:02 [manu]
(just to be clear about what the JSON-LD editors and CG are going to shoot for)
15:42:04 [ivan]
issue-107?
15:42:04 [trackbot]
ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open
15:42:04 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107
15:42:11 [sandro]
ivan, are we going to talk about Guus' report of not publishing as planned?
15:43:13 [yvesr]
pfps: I went through both concepts and semantics, they describe the current situation quite well already
15:43:18 [yvesr]
... they only need tiny changes
15:43:47 [yvesr]
... What it doesn't have is an explanation of what the change is
15:43:54 [yvesr]
... It needs to be added to concepts or primer
15:44:38 [yvesr]
ivan: It would be good to have an explicit action on cygri and path to check whether it's fine with them
15:45:17 [yvesr]
ACTION: cygri to review pfps's proposal on ISSUE-107
15:45:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-250 - Review pfps's proposal on ISSUE-107 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2013-04-10].
15:45:35 [yvesr]
cygri: Happy to take the action, however I don't see how that would close the issue
15:46:46 [yvesr]
topic: Update on publications
15:47:15 [yvesr]
ivan: The plan is to publish the first public working draft tomorrow
15:47:58 [yvesr]
sandro: They need to be using the latest version of respec
15:48:11 [yvesr]
pfps: I don't know what exactly is required
15:48:12 [Guus]
if Peter can do the links, that would be great
15:48:33 [yvesr]
pfps: I can fix up the links, but not sure how to rebase respec
15:49:15 [yvesr]
sandro: We shouldn't have a local copy of respec
15:49:24 [Guus]
we should point to the new version, the https version
15:49:42 [Guus]
i'll unmute myself
15:49:50 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
15:49:50 [Zakim]
pfps was not muted, pfps
15:49:51 [Guus]
q+
15:49:58 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
15:49:58 [Zakim]
pfps should now be muted
15:50:30 [ivan]
ack guus
15:50:44 [yvesr]
Guus: We need to point to the new respec version - what I didn't realise is that it's nice for editing, but difficult for editing
15:50:59 [yvesr]
s/difficult for editing/difficult for publishing
15:51:06 [gavinc]
Where is the THE ReSPEC?
15:51:30 [gavinc]
https://github.com/darobin/respec ?
15:51:46 [sandro]
The right version is: http://www.w3.org/Tools/respec/respec-w3c-common
15:52:03 [markus]
here's the ReSpec script to convert to html on the command line: https://github.com/darobin/respec/blob/develop/tools/respec2html.js
15:52:18 [yvesr]
gavinc: the XHTML processor for respec uses divs instead of sections, the HTML one uses sections
15:52:51 [gkellogg]
We should be using the version in w3c space: https://www.w3.org/Tools/respec/respec-w3c-common
15:53:09 [gkellogg]
That's what the EARL report uses
15:53:11 [pfps]
someone has to tell me where the references database is
15:53:29 [yvesr]
Guus: in our repository i created a draft repository with all the documents
15:53:44 [yvesr]
ericP: We need to do the same across all our different specs
15:53:58 [yvesr]
s/ericP/sandro
15:54:21 [pfps]
OK
15:54:23 [sandro]
+1 guus saved-from-respec goes in to pub/<shortname>/Overview.html
15:54:31 [yvesr]
Guus: if pfps fixes the links, I can fix the references
15:54:33 [gavinc]
https://www.w3.org/Tools/respec/respec-w3c-common
15:55:02 [yvesr]
Guus: I may be able to do it tonight, or next Tuesday
15:55:04 [pfps]
I'll work on the links today
15:55:14 [Guus]
zakim, mute me
15:55:14 [Zakim]
Guus_Schreiber should now be muted
15:55:15 [ivan]
Topic: dependecies
15:55:31 [yvesr]
s/dependecies/dependencies
15:55:40 [yvesr]
ivan: We have a bunch of dependencies when we go to CR
15:55:49 [yvesr]
... JSON-LD depends on the concepts document
15:56:03 [yvesr]
... It already depends on the not-yet-existing Schema document
15:56:18 [yvesr]
... Concepts on DOM4 and HTML5
15:56:25 [yvesr]
s/on/depends on/
15:56:38 [yvesr]
... We have the WebID dependency on the JSON-LD API
15:56:46 [ericP]
q+ to ask if we can refer but shortname to our internal specs 1 version behind the doc being published
15:56:58 [yvesr]
... Hopefully we can avoid putting documents on hold because of that
15:57:03 [ivan]
ack ericP
15:57:04 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to ask if we can refer but shortname to our internal specs 1 version behind the doc being published
15:57:05 [cygri]
q+
15:57:06 [pfps]
were are is our respec publications DB?
15:57:13 [yvesr]
ericP: What we try to avoid is to point to first drafts, which can change
15:57:26 [yvesr]
... But we can point to version of documents that are one step behind us
15:57:38 [yvesr]
ivan: But HTML5 won't become a PR before 2014
15:57:55 [yvesr]
... So if we depend on it, we can't go to REC with RDF Concepts before then
15:58:17 [ivan]
ack cygri
15:58:17 [yvesr]
ivan: JSON-LD would like to go to REC quickly, and we might have to wait for Concepts before we do that
15:58:36 [yvesr]
cygri: About the DOM4 dependency, there are a couple of options
15:58:55 [yvesr]
... When we moved the DOM3 ref to DOM4, we could change that back
15:58:56 [gavinc]
DOM3 is WRONG :P
15:59:00 [yvesr]
... And still refer to DOM3
15:59:13 [yvesr]
... We might have to do some explanation there
15:59:35 [yvesr]
... When we reference the HTML5 parsing algorithm, we might need to describe the output in terms of DOM3
15:59:41 [yvesr]
... So we might need to be careful
15:59:46 [ericP]
q?
15:59:49 [yvesr]
... But that might be the easiest way
16:00:09 [yvesr]
gavinc: We can refer to DOM3, but every implementers is going to run into bugs
16:00:24 [yvesr]
ericP: Are we confident DOM4 is backward-compatible?
16:00:29 [yvesr]
ivan: Nobody knows
16:00:36 [yvesr]
ericP: The WG should have a pretty good idea
16:00:42 [gavinc]
Reality ;) http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/
16:00:57 [yvesr]
ivan: For the time being all the evolution of DOM4 is happening in the WhatWG
16:01:36 [yvesr]
ivan: Maybe a possibility is to have a normative ref to DOM3, and a note pointing at DOM4 elsewhere in the doc
16:01:50 [yvesr]
... Not sure how to do that exactly, but there might be some wording that could work
16:02:54 [yvesr]
ericP: What's the trick to point people to what they need to read to actually implement it?
16:03:04 [Zakim]
-manu
16:03:48 [yvesr]
ericP: If I support HTML literals, I will have to read that spec on the WhatWG
16:04:48 [yvesr]
ericP: We could move that out of the doc, and push them as notes, but no one would really care
16:05:10 [yvesr]
ivan: Could we push it in a non-normative section?
16:05:56 [yvesr]
ericP: we should really explain what to do with HTML literals - if we don't then it needs to be pushed somewhere else
16:07:14 [yvesr]
ericP: We're saying that the processing of XHTML literals has changed - where is the example data showing what's changed?
16:07:56 [Zakim]
-Guus_Schreiber
16:08:36 [yvesr]
ACTION: cygri to investigate dependencies in concepts and semantics
16:08:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-251 - Investigate dependencies in concepts and semantics [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2013-04-10].
16:08:47 [cygri]
ACTION-251?
16:08:48 [trackbot]
ACTION-251 -- Richard Cyganiak to investigate dependencies in concepts and semantics -- due 2013-04-10 -- OPEN
16:08:48 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/251
16:09:06 [yvesr]
ivan: Another dependency is WebIDL from JSON-LD
16:09:15 [yvesr]
markus: I'll try to figure that out
16:09:23 [cygri]
(I changed the description of ACTION-251)
16:09:26 [cygri]
ACTION-251?
16:09:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-251 -- Richard Cyganiak to investigate dependencies on DOM4 and HTML5 in Concepts -- due 2013-04-10 -- OPEN
16:09:26 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/251
16:09:48 [yvesr]
markus: We have to right a couple of tests ourselves to prove the part we're using is stable enough
16:10:02 [yvesr]
markus: ... I am working with Robin to address that
16:11:00 [yvesr]
ivan: AOB?
16:11:09 [pchampin]
q?
16:11:12 [zwu2]
bye
16:11:12 [pchampin]
q+
16:11:24 [Zakim]
-zwu2
16:11:27 [Zakim]
-cgreer
16:11:27 [ivan]
ack pchampin
16:11:28 [Zakim]
-SteveH
16:11:43 [yvesr]
pchampin: I was wondering with Turtle being in CR - would it be too late to add a small feature
16:12:02 [markus]
profile media type parameter?
16:12:04 [cygri]
LDP-WG perhaps would like text/turtle;profile=xxx
16:12:11 [yvesr]
gavinc: Would it be possible to add a parameter to the media-type registration
16:12:21 [pchampin]
s/gavinc/pchampin/
16:12:41 [gavinc]
why do we want profile?
16:12:46 [cygri]
q+
16:13:00 [yvesr]
pchampin: I raised this question in the LDP WG
16:13:05 [ivan]
ack cygri
16:13:38 [yvesr]
cygri: The LDP WG is considering whether to define a new media type to Turtle
16:13:40 [pchampin]
I agree we don't have time to discuss that today;
16:13:48 [pchampin]
I was just asking to know if it was not too late
16:13:56 [gavinc]
or just point to LDP thead... clearly
16:13:56 [yvesr]
... Adding a parameter would enable them to avoid that
16:14:06 [pchampin]
If it is not, I can send an email as well
16:14:13 [Zakim]
-Souri
16:14:22 [Zakim]
-AZ
16:14:26 [Zakim]
-Ivan
16:14:40 [Zakim]
-gkellogg
16:15:27 [yvesr]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:15:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-rdf-wg-minutes.html yvesr
16:15:38 [yvesr]
RRSAgent: make logs public
16:15:53 [gavinc]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/57 ?
16:16:08 [Zakim]
-yvesr
16:16:58 [sandro]
q?
16:18:59 [TallTed]
Zakim, unmute me
16:19:00 [Zakim]
TallTed should no longer be muted
16:20:31 [Zakim]
-GavinC
16:23:02 [Zakim]
-pfps
16:25:35 [TallTed]
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-14.20
16:25:38 [TallTed]
EXPECT header
16:29:01 [ericP]
`curl -H "Expect: fail" http://www.w3.org/` => 417 Expectation failed
16:30:44 [yvesr]
hmm
16:30:58 [yvesr]
'the name "steveh" does not match any of the 47 active names'
16:31:07 [yvesr]
how can i edit that list of names?
16:31:44 [cygri]
yvesr, I think you can say "Guest: steveh" near the top of the chatlog to make that error go away
16:31:51 [yvesr]
cool, ok
16:34:02 [yvesr]
hmm ('Cant parse name', "u'SteveH'")
16:34:04 [yvesr]
:)
16:37:05 [yvesr]
ah, ok - it expects first name/last name
16:38:00 [Guus]
trackbot, end meeting
16:38:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:38:02 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been GavinC, Sandro, Ivan, cgreer, yvesr, +1.908.251.aaaa, TallTed, gkellogg, pfps, manu, AZ, SteveH, cygri, markus, Souri, Guus_Schreiber,
16:38:02 [Zakim]
... zwu2, EricP, pchampin
16:38:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:38:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
16:38:09 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:38:09 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
16:38:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: WG to resolve on LC status on 10/04/2013 [1]
16:38:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-rdf-wg-irc#T15-41-36
16:38:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: davidwood to resolve with WG on LC status of JSON-LD on 10/04/2013 [2]
16:38:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-rdf-wg-irc#T15-41-57
16:38:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: cygri to review pfps's proposal on ISSUE-107 [3]
16:38:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-rdf-wg-irc#T15-45-17
16:38:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: cygri to investigate dependencies in concepts and semantics [4]
16:38:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-rdf-wg-irc#T16-08-36
16:38:24 [Zakim]
-markus