IRC log of tagmem on 2013-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:44:17 [masinter]
masinter has joined #tagmem
02:55:34 [annevk]
annevk has joined #tagmem
05:10:42 [masinter]
masinter has joined #tagmem
09:58:55 [darobin]
darobin has joined #tagmem
10:12:53 [darobin_]
darobin_ has joined #tagmem
10:25:56 [darobin]
darobin has joined #tagmem
11:02:41 [dka]
dka has joined #tagmem
12:14:50 [annevk]
annevk has joined #tagmem
12:24:05 [JeniT]
JeniT has joined #tagmem
12:36:34 [dka]
dka has joined #tagmem
12:49:10 [annevk]
annevk has joined #tagmem
12:57:51 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
12:58:01 [annevk]
annevk has joined #tagmem
13:07:28 [slightlyoff]
can someone call in?
13:07:44 [Yves]
phone is booting
13:07:50 [slightlyoff]
thanks
13:08:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tagmem
13:08:06 [Yves]
tracker, start telcon
13:08:15 [Yves]
trackbot, start telcon
13:08:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:08:19 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TAG
13:08:19 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see TAG_f2f()8:00AM already started
13:08:20 [trackbot]
Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
13:08:20 [trackbot]
Date: 20 March 2013
13:08:51 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
13:09:32 [slightlyoff]
see you
13:10:50 [Zakim]
+WG-meeting
13:11:06 [plinss]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:11:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Alex, WG-meeting
13:11:07 [slightlyoff]
yes, I hear you
13:11:13 [slightlyoff]
but it's super noisy
13:11:15 [slightlyoff]
lots of static
13:11:26 [slightlyoff]
actually, it's unusably staticy
13:11:35 [annevk]
we'll redial in a minute
13:12:21 [wycats_]
q+
13:12:36 [Zakim]
-WG-meeting
13:14:26 [wycats_]
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML
13:14:33 [slightlyoff]
JeniT: thanks. Who's Amy? ;-)
13:15:50 [slightlyoff]
thanks
13:16:37 [slightlyoff]
glad I'm not the only one defeated by zakim on a regular basis.
13:16:55 [Zakim]
+WG-meeting
13:17:23 [slightlyoff]
thanks for dialing back in
13:17:34 [Yves]
Scribe: Yves
13:17:36 [slightlyoff]
the static is still terrible. Will try dialing back in on my end.
13:17:47 [Zakim]
-Alex
13:18:09 [Zakim]
+Alex
13:18:21 [noah]
Link to XML/HTML Task force report: http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/snapshot/
13:18:51 [slightlyoff]
static just got better. Thanks to whoever did that.
13:20:12 [ht_home]
ht_home has joined #tagmem
13:20:54 [Yves]
Topic: polyglot
13:22:24 [slightlyoff]
yeah, I don't understand how namespace'd XML docs are relevant
13:23:45 [slightlyoff]
Yves: can you link to the agenda in the minutes? thanks!
13:24:21 [plinss]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/03/18-agenda
13:24:22 [Yves]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/03/18-agenda#polyglot
13:24:27 [wycats_]
I want to discuss the list of polyglot use cases that are not satisfied by XHTML
13:24:45 [JeniT]
q+
13:24:56 [slightlyoff]
thanks Yves
13:25:02 [wycats_]
you can use IE if you want XML islands ;)
13:25:17 [wycats_]
"Support for XML data islands has been removed in Internet Explorer 10 standards and quirks modes for improved interoperability and compliance with HTML5"
13:25:18 [wycats_]
nope
13:25:29 [JeniT]
the script element is the thing to use
13:25:38 [Zakim]
+TimBL
13:25:42 [slightlyoff]
we added this for <template>, BTW
13:25:59 [JeniT]
can you use arbitrary XML in template?
13:26:46 [slightlyoff]
sorry for the distraction
13:26:48 [JeniT]
Yves, are you scribing?
13:26:58 [slightlyoff]
it's in the spec, but not the implementations
13:27:00 [wycats_]
you could theoretically have <template type="application/xml">
13:27:04 [JeniT]
/me yes
13:27:05 [wycats_]
but the window on that is rapidly closing
13:27:05 [slightlyoff]
many implementations don't stop on first error
13:27:15 [slightlyoff]
see: RSS pipelines at scale
13:27:40 [slightlyoff]
also XAML processing
13:28:07 [Yves]
Noah: discussion about error handling around xhtml, xml5
13:28:18 [Yves]
Anne: brwoser vendors lost interest (in xml5)
13:29:09 [Zakim]
-TimBL
13:29:23 [Yves]
Jeni: one case is where you don't control the mime type on the server
13:29:30 [Zakim]
+TimBL
13:29:53 [Yves]
wycats: not sure this is a high value, the fact that toolchains don't have that is an indication
13:29:53 [slightlyoff]
well, they have built those tools: lots of languages have both XML and HTML parsers; just run it through both and look for exceptions ;-)
13:30:31 [Yves]
wycats: you don't need waiting for a spec to write a tool to help for that use case
13:30:51 [slightlyoff]
xmllint + HTML::Lint
13:30:53 [Yves]
anne: your xml toolchain can have html endpoints (input and/or output)
13:31:51 [Yves]
wycats: there might be confusion on when to use html, xml and polyglot documents
13:32:31 [Zakim]
-TimBL
13:32:55 [JeniT]
the other example that I was going to raise was the E4H example
13:33:02 [Yves]
Noah: the relationship between polyglot and xhtml is a subset/superset one
13:33:25 [annevk]
JeniT, we already know it's not likely to happen, seems ratholing
13:33:52 [Yves]
wycats: I don't want to have people saying "to be safe, use polyglot"
13:34:08 [JeniT]
but in general: defining a parser for a simple subset of XHTML is much much easier than using a full HTML parser
13:34:33 [annevk]
JeniT: you want a third parser?!
13:34:39 [annevk]
JeniT: that is so crazy
13:34:46 [annevk]
JeniT: parsers are not rocket science
13:34:47 [wycats_]
E4H is a crazy reason to want polyglot
13:34:52 [annevk]
that too
13:35:14 [wycats_]
people would want @<img src='foo'><p>hello</p> to work!
13:35:19 [wycats_]
"just use polyglot" is ridiculous
13:35:25 [wycats_]
for anything like E4H
13:36:59 [Yves]
Alex: I'll look at the wording on the status section and redraft it.
13:39:06 [noah]
ACTION: Alex to redraft proposed "status" section that TAG is suggesting for Polyglot
13:39:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-791 - Redraft proposed "status" section that TAG is suggesting for Polyglot [on Alex Russell - due 2013-03-27].
13:39:31 [JeniT]
annevk, I'm merely using the E4H requirement as an existence proof that such a parser might sometimes want to do that
13:39:55 [annevk]
JeniT: "defining a parser for a simple subset of XHTML" is still crazy
13:42:51 [Yves]
Topic: Layering
13:43:33 [slightlyoff]
I think I can follow along
13:43:44 [Yves]
wycats drafting on the white board^Wscreen
13:44:15 [Yves]
Jeni: how it would help people developing platform features?
13:44:18 [Zakim]
-Alex
13:44:27 [Yves]
wycats: by providing guidance
13:44:52 [slightlyoff]
not dead yet, just FT-ing in
13:45:05 [slightlyoff]
thanks to plinss for making it happen
13:46:31 [slightlyoff]
yes, I volunteer
13:50:54 [Marcosc]
Marcosc has joined #tagmem
13:55:17 [Yves]
Anne: should we restrict that to markup APIs?
13:56:22 [slightlyoff]
I think it's important for us to say that markup and APIs need a concrete relationship
13:56:44 [slightlyoff]
so declarative and imperative forms need a relationship, as do high and low-level APIs
13:58:48 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
13:59:17 [annevk]
What I meant to say is if we should be explicit that this includes markup as well as APIs.
14:02:47 [slightlyoff]
annevk: I agree with that
14:02:56 [slightlyoff]
annevk: and it's all about creating connections between the layers
14:04:34 [slightlyoff]
I think it's important for us to identify that people should be trying to create connections between layers
14:04:39 [slightlyoff]
not pre-suppose a fixed # of layers
14:04:42 [Yves]
anne: there are many layers in XHR, as redirection, decoding and getting content are different layers
14:04:49 [slightlyoff]
(1, N, or somewhere inbetween)
14:05:30 [Yves]
ex, redirects are currently not handled as we don't have the right API
14:12:39 [slightlyoff]
JeniT: I don't think our problem there is as large -- "progressive enhancement" is the received wisdom amongst FE-engs.
14:13:49 [JeniT]
agreed
14:14:06 [JeniT]
but I wonder if there are patterns there that work better/worse, and are worth exploring
14:14:13 [slightlyoff]
JeniT: yeah, I think there are
14:14:13 [JeniT]
for example, should you use data-* attributes, classes
14:17:52 [timbl]
timbl has joined #tagmem
14:18:24 [timbl]
RRSAgent, pointer?
14:18:24 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-tagmem-irc#T14-18-24
14:20:45 [Yves]
Anne: we should also describe when the layering was not done right
14:20:59 [Yves]
and point to what would have been the right way
14:24:26 [Yves]
Web Components is considered generally as the right direction
14:24:41 [Yves]
Noah: we need a list of who needs to buy into this
14:25:15 [Yves]
Anne: CSS, WebApps, Webappsec, WhatWG...
14:25:34 [Yves]
Noah: should we invite them to meetings?
14:25:58 [annevk]
WebRTC WG
14:26:02 [annevk]
s/WhatWG/WHATWG/
14:29:44 [annevk]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/
14:32:56 [slightlyoff]
it's an alternative declarative form that has more power
14:34:27 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
14:35:13 [Yves]
wycats: when you have an img tag, or xhr, you need to describe the layers involved here
14:36:10 [Yves]
Anne: in the case of a redirect, it's not clear that layers should be exposed or not
14:38:51 [Zakim]
+??P9
14:42:31 [Yves]
(discussion about high level apis of socket vs low level options like slow-start)
14:42:49 [slightlyoff]
you're construing my point as a strawman for only low-level control, which it is not
14:43:06 [slightlyoff]
my point was more subtle
14:43:06 [Yves]
and their relevance today
14:44:30 [Yves]
Alex: exposing only high level or only low level is not helpful, you need to explain their relationship as well
14:45:10 [slightlyoff]
yes, and we will inevitably have both
14:45:13 [slightlyoff]
and should!
14:47:22 [ht]
ack ht
14:47:28 [slightlyoff]
sorry 'bout that.
14:47:35 [slightlyoff]
I can move back to skype
14:47:38 [slightlyoff]
sorry, back to the phone
14:47:45 [slightlyoff]
we're done with the projection now
14:47:51 [slightlyoff]
I'll move back to the phone
14:47:51 [ht]
q+ to ask about declarative layering
14:48:44 [timbl]
q?
14:48:48 [Zakim]
+Alex
14:48:50 [wycats_]
q-
14:48:52 [slightlyoff]
back
14:48:53 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to ask about declarative layering
14:48:55 [slightlyoff]
sorry ht
14:49:44 [wycats_]
https://gist.github.com/wycats/5205250
14:51:14 [wycats_]
q+
14:51:21 [JeniT]
q-
14:52:40 [Yves]
wycats: if it's all declarative and not what you need, then it won't work, you need to have a programmative "escape" to work around
14:52:45 [slightlyoff]
ht: I'd think of it this way: is it possible to implement your delcarative system declaratively all the way? If not, you probably need an imperative binding at SOME point
14:53:17 [ht]
Absolutely
14:53:27 [ht]
Just glad to see that both routes are on the table
14:53:32 [slightlyoff]
ht: oh, no, that wasn't the goal to rule that out. We're advocating for both declarative and imperative forms in the platform for MOST important capatbilities
14:53:51 [slightlyoff]
ht: yeah, we're not calling one or the other "the winner", just pointing out that they need each other and that they should have a relationship
14:53:58 [ht]
cool
14:54:09 [slightlyoff]
we can't all win unless both imperative and declarative move forward together
14:54:26 [Zakim]
-ht
14:55:54 [slightlyoff]
I could use a chance to make coffee = )
14:56:10 [JeniT]
we're breaking for half an hour
14:56:16 [slightlyoff]
thanks!
14:56:36 [slightlyoff]
I don't know if I do
14:58:05 [plinss]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/cvs
15:08:53 [dka]
dka has joined #tagmem
15:26:35 [noah]
zakim, who is talking?
15:26:47 [Zakim]
noah, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: WG-meeting (92%), Alex (18%)
15:28:40 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
16:10:58 [JeniT_]
JeniT_ has joined #tagmem
16:15:19 [slightlyoff]
can y'all hear me?
16:15:33 [slightlyoff]
have I been mooted?
16:15:37 [slightlyoff]
s/mooted/muted/
16:15:45 [slightlyoff]
(or both? ;-) )
16:17:16 [slightlyoff]
I can hear y'all
16:17:20 [slightlyoff]
but I can't participate, it seems
16:17:22 [slightlyoff]
will redial
16:17:28 [Zakim]
-Alex
16:18:00 [Zakim]
+Alex
16:35:33 [timbl]
RRSAgent, please make the minutes DRM-protected
16:35:33 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make the minutes DRM-protected', timbl. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:43:27 [bkardell_]
bkardell_ has joined #tagmem
17:01:06 [slightlyoff]
is this still lunch?
17:01:15 [annevk]
we're about to take a photo
17:01:19 [slightlyoff]
I see
17:01:27 [annevk]
and there's some ongoing DRM discussion
17:01:27 [slightlyoff]
ok, so I can go to another meeting for 20 minutes?
17:01:31 [annevk]
yes
17:02:48 [JeniT]
should we have slightlyoff on a hangout or something in the photo
17:03:14 [JeniT]
given we have no life-size cardboard cutout
17:04:15 [slightlyoff]
I can call in via FT
17:04:18 [slightlyoff]
and you can have me via ipad
17:04:20 [slightlyoff]
= )
17:04:31 [slightlyoff]
also, WORST CARDBOARD CUTOUT EVER
17:11:54 [slightlyoff]
I feel compelled to make some sort of max hedroom comments
17:15:16 [JeniT]
ScribeNick: JeniT
17:20:11 [JeniT]
Topic: ES6 changes
17:20:51 [JeniT]
wycats_: syntactic improvements
17:22:06 [JeniT]
... can do { foo() { ... } } to define methods on an object
17:24:25 [JeniT]
... (args) => { ... } instead of function (args) { ... }
17:26:05 [JeniT]
... 'this' doesn't get bound in shorthand
17:27:17 [JeniT]
... APIs that mutate 'this' are bad APIs: instead you should be passing along parameters
17:28:12 [slightlyoff]
to provide some color, I don't necessarialy agree it's bad, but TC39 is constrained in syntax and semantic alternatives here -- I have argued in the past for "soft binding" that would allow for explicit "this" over-rides, but it's complicated and an edge-case
17:28:51 [slightlyoff]
the big issue here is that in JS, the dot operator (e.g. "foo.bar") doesn't bind a function that's de-referenced with any particular this binding
17:29:04 [slightlyoff]
this is a partial fix
17:29:10 [slightlyoff]
for some subset of use-cases
17:30:26 [JeniT]
... (item) => item.toUpperCase() auto-returns
17:32:52 [slightlyoff]
although jslint yelling at you is part for the course; most people are using jshint these days
17:33:00 [annevk]
;p
17:35:04 [slightlyoff]
can someone post the code under discussion?
17:35:32 [JeniT]
var callback = [];
17:35:43 [JeniT]
for (var i=0; i<10; i++) {
17:35:45 [annevk]
for(var i = 0; i<10; i++) { function c() { log(i) } push(c) }
17:35:50 [JeniT]
function () { console.log(i); }
17:35:53 [slightlyoff]
got it
17:35:56 [slightlyoff]
thanks
17:35:57 [JeniT]
callbacks.push(c);
17:35:57 [JeniT]
}
17:36:34 [JeniT]
... new binding form 'let'
17:37:08 [JeniT]
... scope of 'let' is a block
17:37:57 [JeniT]
... 'const' has same binding scope but can't be changed
17:39:06 [slightlyoff]
this is the "temporal dead zone"
17:40:09 [JeniT]
... but not expected to be heavily used
17:40:50 [JeniT]
... "restructured assignment"
17:40:58 [JeniT]
s/restructured/destructured/
17:42:06 [JeniT]
... var { type, bubbles } = options;
17:42:16 [JeniT]
... var { type, bubbles=false } = options;
17:42:40 [JeniT]
... var { type: type, bubbles: bubbles } = options;
17:43:23 [Zakim]
+Masinter
17:43:47 [masinter]
zakim, who's here?
17:43:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see WG-meeting, Alex, Masinter
17:43:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bkardell_, JeniT, timbl, noah, Zakim, annevk, masinter, RRSAgent, slightlyoff, wycats_, Yves, plinss, trackbot
17:43:54 [JeniT]
... in this case, part before : is the key name in the passed object, part after is the variable to which that value is assigned
17:47:19 [JeniT]
... var { type : { bubbles }} = options;
17:47:23 [slightlyoff]
for folks who want to play around with many of these things, you can try interactively in Traceur: http://traceur-compiler.googlecode.com/git/demo/repl.html
17:47:35 [JeniT]
... [ type, bubbles ] = array;
17:47:45 [JeniT]
... [ type, bubbles, ...rest] = array;
17:48:24 [JeniT]
... var { type, bubbles? } = options; means no error if bubbles isn't defined in options
17:48:25 [slightlyoff]
http://traceur-compiler.googlecode.com/git/demo/repl.html#var%20%7B%20type%20%3A%20%7B%20bubbles%20%7D%7D%20%3D%20%7B%20type%3A%20%22thinger%22%2C%20bubbles%3A%20false%20%7D%3B
17:49:07 [JeniT]
... this makes it more reasonable to have return values that are dictionaries or arrays
17:49:54 [JeniT]
annevk: functions already return objects, and this will work with that?
17:49:58 [JeniT]
wycats_: yes
17:50:26 [JeniT]
wycats_: use destructuring method inside argument list
17:50:33 [JeniT]
... function Event({type, bubbles})
17:51:14 [JeniT]
... function foo(a, ...b) { ... }
17:51:39 [masinter]
most of this stuff is just "syntactic sugar", though, no changes to the VM needed?
17:52:02 [slightlyoff]
masinter: there are Object Model changes in ES6 too, largely thanks to Proxies
17:52:13 [slightlyoff]
masinter: but much of what has been shown now is pure sugar, yes
17:52:29 [slightlyoff]
masinter: also, in JS, there's no parser/bytecode split
17:52:50 [slightlyoff]
masinter: we don't have a standard bytecode (and most JS VMs do without one entirely, although they do have IRs)
17:52:51 [JeniT]
... function (a, ...b, { type, bubbles }) { ... }
17:54:03 [JeniT]
timbl: think object parameters demonstrate lack of power in parameter list
17:54:30 [JeniT]
wycats_: want implementations to optimise the destructuring
17:55:06 [JeniT]
[discussion of keyword parameters]
17:55:37 [JeniT]
wycats_: optional arguments
17:56:14 [JeniT]
... function bar (a, b=1) { ... }
17:56:39 [slightlyoff]
heh
17:56:56 [slightlyoff]
for the record, wycats_ *is* doing a great job = )
17:57:14 [JeniT]
+1
17:57:54 [slightlyoff]
yes, I know...just making sure we have the humor value captured = )
17:58:31 [JeniT]
wycats_: lots of weirdness around prototypical inheritance
17:58:50 [JeniT]
... new syntax for semantic inheritance
17:58:50 [slightlyoff]
you can try this syntax in Traceur too
17:59:35 [slightlyoff]
http://traceur-compiler.googlecode.com/git/demo/repl.html#class%20Blarg%20%7B%7D%0A%0Aclass%20Thinger%20extends%20Blarg%20%7B%0A%20%20constructor()%20%7B%0A%20%20%20%20super()%3B%0A%20%20%7D%0A%7D
18:00:02 [JeniT]
... class Event { constructor ({ type, bubbles }) { ... } foo() { ... } }
18:00:28 [JeniT]
... class ClickEvent extends Event { constructor(...args) { super(...args); } }
18:02:33 [JeniT]
... "maps and sets"
18:02:39 [JeniT]
... var map = new Map();
18:02:42 [JeniT]
... var key = {};
18:02:49 [JeniT]
... map.set(key, "value");
18:03:04 [JeniT]
... map.get(key);
18:03:15 [slightlyoff]
Maps and Sets, BTW, might already be in your browser
18:03:42 [slightlyoff]
FireFox has an early implementation shipping
18:03:49 [slightlyoff]
and Chrome has it behind a flag, IIRC
18:04:06 [JeniT]
... var set = new Set(); var obj = {}; set.add(obj); set.has(obj);
18:05:38 [JeniT]
timbl: could have a value that you can pass around / compare, but not print, for example
18:05:46 [JeniT]
... which is similar to what we were talking about yesterday re URIs
18:06:14 [JeniT]
wycats_: var symbol = new Symbol(); var obj = {}; obj[symbol] = 1; obj[symbol]
18:06:40 [JeniT]
plinss: hash is based on identity of object?
18:06:41 [JeniT]
wycats_: yes
18:07:00 [JeniT]
... goal to have real private symbol, but it's complicated
18:07:20 [JeniT]
annevk: the symbol can be retrieved from object?
18:07:24 [JeniT]
wycats_: yes, by reflection
18:07:34 [JeniT]
annevk: the platform needs real private stuff
18:07:40 [JeniT]
wycats_: yes, but that isn't what Symbol is
18:07:44 [JeniT]
... "Modules"
18:08:03 [JeniT]
... most crucial thing for the platform
18:08:10 [JeniT]
... import { foo } from "bar";
18:08:22 [JeniT]
... foo is not on window or any global object
18:09:05 [JeniT]
... real example is import { Event } from "web/dom";
18:09:23 [JeniT]
timbl: can you use "http://..." there?
18:09:34 [JeniT]
wycats_: yes, but no, you don't want to
18:09:54 [JeniT]
timbl: I'm interested in this question, because as TAG we should defend using URLs for naming things
18:10:16 [JeniT]
... there are lots of systems where the search path is a problem
18:10:26 [JeniT]
... leads to pain, lack of interoperability, and security problems
18:10:43 [JeniT]
wycats_: conversation is still open, but URIs here force you to get it off the network, which is a problem
18:11:04 [JeniT]
... this is a good conversation to have
18:11:21 [JeniT]
... we'd like to have a good strategy to use URIs, but now is not the time
18:11:37 [JeniT]
... in web/dom.js:
18:11:49 [JeniT]
... export class Event { ... }
18:12:01 [JeniT]
annevk: so export is a module syntax?
18:12:14 [JeniT]
wycats_: if you import, it's assumed you're pointing to a module
18:12:28 [JeniT]
... there's a literal form which is module "web/dom" { ... }
18:12:45 [JeniT]
... but that means you can't move the module file
18:12:52 [JeniT]
noah: can you export anything or only classes?
18:13:05 [JeniT]
wycats_: anything: variables, functions
18:13:16 [JeniT]
noah: do you have to explicitly export each thing explicitly?
18:13:33 [JeniT]
wycats_: there's a form that's export { x, y, z } but it might go away
18:14:12 [JeniT]
JeniT: can you import everything?
18:14:13 [JeniT]
wycats_: no
18:14:16 [JeniT]
timbl: good
18:14:54 [JeniT]
annevk: what if I export a function that returns a Document, but I haven't exported Document?
18:15:48 [JeniT]
wycats_: you only need to have access to the name "Document" if you need to identify the object as "Document"
18:16:10 [JeniT]
... you can get hold of prototype and make a new instance using that prototype
18:16:19 [JeniT]
... without knowing it's called "Document" in your module
18:16:26 [JeniT]
s/your/the imported/
18:18:39 [JeniT]
timbl: can I in the import statement change the name of the thing that's imported?
18:18:53 [JeniT]
wycats_: yes, eg import { XHR : XHR2 } from "web/network";
18:19:01 [JeniT]
... modules have static imports & exports
18:19:24 [JeniT]
... so that we can transitively get dependencies, before executing the code
18:19:41 [JeniT]
... can also do System.require("web/network") but it assumes module is already loaded
18:19:54 [JeniT]
timbl: can I get hold of module itself?
18:20:14 [JeniT]
wycats_: yes, syntax subject to change but import "web/network" as webNetwork;
18:20:30 [JeniT]
annevk: so you could then get hold of everything
18:21:17 [slightlyoff]
one way to think about this is that Module instances are a new core type; they're not Object instances
18:21:26 [JeniT]
wycats_: yes, but you don't have the local binding for the name in that case
18:22:02 [JeniT]
... it's a frozen object
18:22:12 [JeniT]
... you can loop over it
18:22:18 [slightlyoff]
...except it has no Object.prototype as its prototype
18:22:33 [wycats_]
Object.create(null)
18:22:57 [JeniT]
slightlyoff: one way to think of it is that modules are a new abstraction type, that you'll only ever create through this syntax
18:23:30 [JeniT]
wycats_: the module is an immutable, frozen thing which cannot change, unlike the global object
18:24:49 [JeniT]
... "Proxies"
18:25:06 [JeniT]
... pretty complicated but have simple understanding
18:25:14 [JeniT]
... http://es6.github.com
18:25:29 [Yves]
s/6/5/
18:25:32 [JeniT]
... see Chapter 8
18:26:16 [JeniT]
... contains [[GET]], [[SET]] are things that browser implementations can override but JS programmers can't
18:26:51 [JeniT]
... now have var p = new Proxy (obj, { get: function (proxy, key, receiver) { ... } })
18:27:16 [JeniT]
... let regular JS do what host objects could always do
18:27:37 [JeniT]
slightlyoff: it means the magic that was done through IDL can now be written out in JS
18:27:45 [JeniT]
... exposing the magic
18:29:56 [JeniT]
wycats_: there are many places in DOM that are doing this kind of thing, like the style object
18:30:08 [JeniT]
annevk: like element.style.background is something
18:30:18 [JeniT]
... style is a long list of names in IDL
18:31:02 [JeniT]
wycats_: ok, maybe this isn't a good example
18:31:39 [JeniT]
annevk: but the platform should not use proxies
18:31:55 [JeniT]
wycats_: yes, but this exposes what existing APIs are doing
18:32:04 [JeniT]
... length properties for example
18:32:22 [JeniT]
slightlyoff: it's a way of rationalising how the current magic be explained
18:32:33 [JeniT]
... and how we might do it in the future if there is a legitimate reason for doing so
18:32:52 [JeniT]
wycats_: there are C++ implementations of objects that are used internally
18:33:07 [JeniT]
... like arrays
18:33:27 [JeniT]
... can add a property to classes
18:33:41 [JeniT]
... eg (not real syntax) Element[@@create] = function () { ... }
18:33:55 [JeniT]
... that's native code
18:34:27 [JeniT]
... but in JS I can do class MyElement extends Element { ... }
18:34:27 [JeniT]
... so extend things that are native implementations
18:34:27 [JeniT]
marcosc: are we sure that's going to work?
18:34:33 [JeniT]
annevk, wycats_, slightlyoff: yes
18:34:40 [JeniT]
... though hard
18:46:06 [darobin]
darobin has joined #tagmem
18:47:54 [JeniT]
Topic: "Wrap-up"
18:48:46 [JeniT]
noah: photo is live on the web
18:49:17 [JeniT]
... on http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/03/18-agenda
18:49:38 [JeniT]
... let's remind ourselves of what we're going to do
18:49:55 [JeniT]
... and make sure that there's a balance of work across the group
18:50:48 [JeniT]
... thanks to everyone: I think we've started to work together well
18:51:17 [JeniT]
... there are 9-10 of us, about a third of us will be busy with day jobs at any particular time
18:51:25 [JeniT]
... we should have 3-4 things that we're working on
18:51:39 [JeniT]
annevk: there's one slot open for appointments
18:51:51 [JeniT]
timbl: you can suggest who that should be
18:51:56 [JeniT]
... there's no defined date
18:52:16 [JeniT]
annevk: I think that should be Peter
18:52:31 [JeniT]
timbl: I'm always open to advice
18:52:57 [JeniT]
noah: so, the Layering project is wycats_ and slightlyoff
18:53:09 [slightlyoff]
great, thanks
18:54:08 [JeniT]
... JeniT working on fragids, urls in data, capability URLs & unhosted Apps
18:54:30 [JeniT]
... ht on persistence of URIs & URLs in data
18:56:03 [dka]
dka has joined #tagmem
18:57:57 [JeniT]
[reviewing actions]
18:58:11 [JeniT]
noah: please change actions to 'Pending Review' if you want them discussed in next telcon
18:58:30 [JeniT]
... it's what I use to generate agendas
18:59:01 [masinter]
All of my action items disappeared, i guess they got reassigned
18:59:33 [noah]
close ACTION-763
18:59:33 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-763 prepare response to last call feedback on Publishing and Linking.
18:59:34 [Zakim]
-Alex
18:59:36 [noah]
close ACTION-764
18:59:36 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-764 arrange for expert review of Publishing and Linking last call draft.
18:59:44 [noah]
ACTION-789?
18:59:44 [trackbot]
ACTION-789 -- Yehuda Katz to with help from Anne to review TAG finding on application state and propose TAG followup to promote good use of URIs for Web Apps including those with persistent state with focus on actual examples -- due 2013-04-16 -- OPEN
18:59:45 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/789
18:59:58 [Zakim]
+Alex
19:00:15 [noah]
ACTION-786?
19:00:15 [trackbot]
ACTION-786 -- Marcos Caceres to frame, with help from Alex, discussion of Javascript API Design Issues for F2F -- due 2013-03-04 -- OPEN
19:00:15 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/786
19:00:20 [slightlyoff]
thanks, only missed 30 seconds
19:00:30 [slightlyoff]
hit "esc"
19:00:37 [slightlyoff]
no objections
19:00:41 [noah]
MC: Let it go
19:00:44 [noah]
close ACTION-786
19:00:44 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-786 frame, with help from Alex, discussion of Javascript API Design Issues for F2F.
19:01:01 [JeniT]
[decision not to follow up on API design issues]
19:01:06 [noah]
ACTION-788?
19:01:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-788 -- Yehuda Katz to frame F2F discussion of liaison with ECMA TC39 -- due 2013-03-07 -- OPEN
19:01:06 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/788
19:01:08 [slightlyoff]
we can re-schedule time for something along these lines later -- there's lot we did get to this week and more we can do when we get deeper with various WGs.
19:01:14 [noah]
close ACTION-788
19:01:14 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-788 Frame F2F discussion of liaison with ECMA TC39.
19:01:28 [Marcosc]
Marcosc has joined #tagmem
19:01:41 [masinter]
public-script-coord@w3.org should follow up on WebIDL
19:01:42 [noah]
ACTION-791?
19:01:42 [trackbot]
ACTION-791 -- Alex Russell to redraft proposed "status" section that TAG is suggesting for Polyglot -- due 2013-03-27 -- OPEN
19:01:42 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/791
19:02:28 [JeniT]
wycats_: I should have an action to get TC39 to do something about WebIDL
19:04:22 [noah]
ACTION: Yehuda with help from Alex talk to TC39 about helping with WebIDL (agreed on Monday 18 March) - Due 2013
19:04:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-792 - with help from Alex talk to TC39 about helping with WebIDL (agreed on Monday 18 March) [on Yehuda Katz - due 2013-03-20].
19:05:20 [noah]
ACTION-791?
19:05:20 [trackbot]
ACTION-791 -- Alex Russell to redraft proposed "status" section that TAG is suggesting for Polyglot -- due 2013-03-27 -- OPEN
19:05:20 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/791
19:05:25 [slightlyoff]
yes
19:05:31 [slightlyoff]
I'm here
19:05:39 [slightlyoff]
yep, LGTM
19:06:08 [JeniT]
[noah writes 'polyglot' next to slightlyoff's name]
19:06:58 [JeniT]
annevk: I'm looking at application state
19:08:00 [annevk]
masinter: going through actions and such
19:08:15 [annevk]
q?
19:08:25 [noah]
q-
19:08:31 [wycats_]
q-
19:08:56 [slightlyoff]
members of the tag are also concerned
19:09:01 [Zakim]
-Masinter
19:09:58 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
19:09:58 [ht_home]
ht_home has joined #tagmem
19:10:05 [annevk]
RRSAgent: make minutes
19:10:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-tagmem-minutes.html annevk
19:10:25 [annevk]
so why is http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/03/19-tagmem-minutes.html dead?
19:10:29 [JeniT]
looking at http://www.w3.org/2013/03/18-tagmem-irc.txt
19:10:46 [JeniT]
we said that we'd revisit today
19:12:01 [JeniT]
noah: one observation is that it's a good idea to design formats that self-identify inline
19:12:30 [JeniT]
wycats_: there are some things that are MUST NOTs in the Finding that I think we should change
19:12:50 [JeniT]
noah: logistically what should we do?
19:13:00 [JeniT]
wycats_: someone should propose a new line
19:13:10 [JeniT]
noah: anyone volunteer?
19:13:12 [slightlyoff]
I'm interested, but can't commit
19:13:19 [JeniT]
similarly
19:13:50 [JeniT]
annevk: I could write a summary of the discussion
19:13:56 [JeniT]
wycats_: start with Section 4
19:14:15 [JeniT]
... we shouldn't have a MUST NOT in a spec that HTML can't follow
19:14:46 [JeniT]
... timbl had a good argument that maybe we want to describe the system even if its not one we can actively follow
19:14:58 [JeniT]
noah: I think whoever takes this on needs to invest some time in it
19:15:14 [JeniT]
annevk: we should accept that reality is different and point that out somehow
19:15:37 [slightlyoff]
...and I don't agree that tim's argument was that good = )
19:16:40 [JeniT]
JeniT: do we have time to do this now?
19:16:47 [JeniT]
wycats_: sounds like 'no'
19:17:07 [JeniT]
... let's put it on the agenda for next F2F
19:17:40 [JeniT]
noah: is it fruitful to have another discussion?
19:18:08 [slightlyoff]
I feel about this the way I felt about polyglot: the TAG should not be seen to be recommending things which cannot be reconciled with reality
19:18:30 [noah]
AVK: Yes, I'd like this revisited, but I think the world has moved on and don't want to spend huge effort fixing.
19:19:05 [noah]
NM: A bit too simple I think, some of the community is worried that Follow Your nose and Self Describing Web remain important. So, we need to tell both sides.
19:19:15 [noah]
JT: Anne, how about you frame sample disclaimer text
19:19:20 [noah]
AVK: Good, yes.
19:19:30 [slightlyoff]
annevk: I see this about redeeming the TAG's reputation
19:20:45 [JeniT]
slightlyoff, you could more positively phrase that as reflecting on and learning from experience
19:21:22 [noah]
ACTION: Anne to draft disclaimer text for Authoritative Metadata - Due 2013-04-02
19:21:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-793 - draft disclaimer text for Authoritative Metadata [on Anne van Kesteren - due 2013-04-02].
19:22:33 [JeniT]
noah: marcosc, is there anything that you're interested in working on?
19:22:36 [JeniT]
Marcosc: not at the moment
19:23:36 [JeniT]
noah: annevk, anything in particular more that you're interested in?
19:24:42 [JeniT]
annevk: I'll pitch in on other things
19:24:58 [JeniT]
Yves: I'll look at when other work frees up
19:25:31 [JeniT]
noah: minute integration:
19:27:49 [JeniT]
... JeniT does Monday
19:28:29 [JeniT]
IRC log for Tuesday is here: http://www.w3.org/2013/03/19-tagmem-irc.txt
19:28:32 [darobin]
darobin has joined #tagmem
19:28:54 [JeniT]
Monday: http://www.w3.org/2013/03/18-tagmem-irc.txt
19:31:48 [JeniT]
... Yves does Wednesday
19:33:32 [annevk]
Marcosc: http://www.w3.org/2013/03/19-tagmem-irc.txt
19:33:44 [annevk]
Tuesday ^^
19:44:27 [Zakim]
-Alex
19:44:32 [Zakim]
-WG-meeting
19:44:33 [Zakim]
TAG_f2f()8:00AM has ended
19:44:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were Alex, WG-meeting, TimBL, ht, Masinter
20:01:52 [amy]
amy has joined #tagmem
20:02:50 [amy]
amy has left #tagmem
20:06:35 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
20:38:46 [timbl]
timbl has joined #tagmem
20:41:29 [annevk]
annevk has joined #tagmem
20:42:47 [annevk_]
annevk_ has joined #tagmem
20:53:11 [JeniT]
JeniT has joined #tagmem
21:09:46 [darobin]
darobin has joined #tagmem
21:17:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
21:44:17 [darobin]
darobin has joined #tagmem
22:19:53 [JeniT]
JeniT has joined #tagmem