20:53:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
20:53:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-indie-ui-irc
20:53:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:53:40 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #indie-ui
20:53:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be INDIE
20:53:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
20:53:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
20:53:43 <trackbot> Date: 20 March 2013
20:53:50 <janina> Meeting: IndieUI Task Force Teleconference
20:53:50 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
20:53:50 <janina> agenda+ Editor's Update
20:53:50 <janina> agenda+ Upcoming Teleconference Time Shifts Redux
20:53:50 <janina> agenda+ Prospects for a F2F at TPAC 2013
20:53:52 <janina> agenda+ Proposed Key Value Pair Approach http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2013Mar/0029.html
20:53:55 <janina> agenda+ Events Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/2
20:53:58 <janina> agenda+ User Context Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/3
20:54:01 <janina> agenda+ Privacy and Security: The cases for exposing AT
20:54:04 <janina> agenda+ Renaming POR: Open Discussion
20:54:06 <janina> agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 3 April at 21:00Z)
20:54:09 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
20:54:50 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #indie-ui
20:55:37 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()5:00PM has now started
20:55:44 <Zakim> +??P8
20:57:17 <Zakim> +??P10
20:57:40 <janina>  zakim, ??P10 is Janina_Sajka
20:57:40 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
20:58:36 <janina> zakim, ??P8 is Jason_White
20:58:36 <Zakim> +Jason_White; got it
20:58:48 <janina> zakim, who's here?
20:58:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jason_White, Janina_Sajka
20:58:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see jasonjgw, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, smaug, MichaelC, Lachy, shepazu, hober, sangwhan, trackbot
20:59:32 <Rich_Simpson> Rich_Simpson has joined #indie-ui
20:59:45 <Zakim> +??P11
21:00:43 <Zakim> + +1.412.901.aaaa
21:00:44 <andy> andy has joined #indie-ui
21:00:50 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2013Mar/0035.html
21:01:01 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Rich_Simpson
21:01:01 <Zakim> +Rich_Simpson; got it
21:01:08 <Zakim> +??P1
21:01:37 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P1 is Andy_Heath
21:01:37 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
21:02:14 <Zakim> + +1.408.423.aabb
21:02:27 <hober> Zakim, aabb is me
21:02:27 <Zakim> +hober; got it
21:02:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
21:03:33 <Zakim> +Rich.a
21:04:04 <MichaelC> zakim, who is on the phone?
21:04:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jason_White, Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Simpson, Andy_Heath, hober, Rich.a
21:04:31 <janina> zakim, take up item scribe: jason_white
21:04:31 <Zakim> 'scribe\:\ jason_white' does not match any agenda item, janina
21:04:44 <janina> scribe: Jason_White
21:04:53 <MichaelC> scribeNick: jasonjgw
21:04:54 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
21:04:54 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Editor's Update" taken up [from janina]
21:05:10 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #indie-ui
21:05:22 <Zakim> +[Apple]
21:05:32 <hober> Zakim, Apple is jcraig
21:05:32 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
21:05:33 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraig
21:05:33 <Zakim> sorry, jcraig, I do not recognize a party named 'Apple'
21:05:49 <jcraig> Zakim, jcraig is [Apple]
21:05:49 <Zakim> +[Apple]; got it
21:05:58 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraig
21:05:58 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
21:07:20 <janina> zakim, take up item 2
21:07:20 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Upcoming Teleconference Time Shifts Redux" taken up [from janina]
21:07:42 <andy> I think I can fix the stuttering - I'm going to drop off and come straight back
21:08:08 <jasonjgw> Janina reminds participants to be mindful of the changing time zones and summarizes pending time shifts.
21:08:40 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
21:08:40 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Editor's Update" taken up [from janina]
21:09:03 <jasonjgw> Minor changes and clarifications to the Events module based on comments on the list.
21:09:26 <jasonjgw> User contexts: major revisions since last meeting based on feedback from working group participants.
21:09:55 <jcraig> Change summary list: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/
21:09:56 <jasonjgw> The most interesting points of departure may be comments made in the survey.
21:10:16 <jasonjgw> James outlines the change summary.
21:11:16 <jasonjgw> These changes include keys in various sections of User Contexts.
21:11:36 <andy_> andy_ has joined #indie-ui
21:12:24 <jasonjgw> He notes potential discussion topics including spec highlighting and keys for light on dark colour contrast.
21:13:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/54997/2013-03-20/results
21:13:56 <MichaelC> topic: General Keys https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/54997/2013-03-20/results#xq2
21:14:33 <jasonjgw> This is the survey item reviewing general preference keys.
21:15:06 <jasonjgw> Michael notes that some items relate to user preferences and others to what is running on the system; he suggests making these independent.
21:15:58 <janina> q?
21:16:24 <jasonjgw> James notes that inverse colour is used by people with disabilities; it can be set in some operating systems. Exposing the preference allows the Web application to take this preference into account
21:16:38 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath
21:16:48 <MichaelC> q+
21:16:56 <jasonjgw> for example to invert images or text; letting the application know how content is being displayed in the user's environment/context.
21:17:07 <andy_> lost audio - is it me ?
21:17:35 <Zakim> +??P1
21:17:51 <janina> zakim, ??P1 is Andy_Heath
21:17:51 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
21:17:51 <MichaelC> ack me
21:18:25 <jasonjgw> James gives a further example: captions in HTML 5 video players. The preference assertion allows custom displays of such captions, which is additional to what the UA is already configured to do when captions are enabled.
21:18:25 <andy_> q+
21:18:51 <jasonjgw> Michael would like to be clear about whether a preference or a system state is being expressed and suggests we may have parallel properties for both.
21:19:28 <janina> q?
21:19:46 <MichaelC> ack a
21:19:48 <jasonjgw> James suggests that the distinction between preferences and settings could be reflected in naming conventions.
21:20:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
21:20:31 <MichaelC> ack r
21:20:54 <jcraig> q+
21:21:15 <jasonjgw> Rich notes that invert colours is a setting on certain systems (e.g., MacOS) whereas white on black is a request to the application.
21:21:51 <andy_> Putting the meaning in the name ties it to the architecture
21:21:51 <MichaelC> ack j
21:22:02 <jasonjgw> Janina suggests choosing particularly significant issues from the survey given the time this is requiring and the number of survey items with their responses.
21:22:15 <andy_> for example what about a device that cannot do invertedColours but we still want invertedColours delivered to it
21:22:47 <andy_> there may be not so many devices but this is a general issue that can apply to other prefs
21:23:29 <andy_> if the prefs are as useful as we think they will be then consider the Internet of Things, where devices are not necessarily tablets or smartphones
21:23:29 <jasonjgw> James notes that having two keys: white on black and black on white, respectively, is confusing if both booleans are true. He offers a dark on light/light on dark proposal.
21:23:48 <jasonjgw> Michael suggests the idea of a contrast setting.
21:24:21 <jasonjgw> Michael's comment was based on Rich and Andy's proposals.
21:24:22 <janina> q?
21:24:54 <andy_> guys - can you respond to my point please
21:26:01 <smaug_> smaug_ has joined #indie-ui
21:26:11 <jasonjgw> Rich queries the concept of point of regard as a preference.
21:26:37 <andy_> something might be a preference on one device and a setting on a different one
21:26:59 <andy_> depending on the functionalities of the device
21:27:09 <jasonjgw> James clarifies: this is a key that receives a state value which refers to a DOM element; it is not a preference but rather a value that reflects the current state. Maybe it needs to be reclassified - perhaps not as a key.
21:28:07 <jasonjgw> Active element refers to keyboard focus (including screen reader/eye tracking software focus) - active element for AT.
21:28:33 <jasonjgw> Rich suggests clarifying the distinction (point of regard/active element) in the definitions.
21:30:28 <jasonjgw> There is discussion of point of regard in relation to scroll views and custom controls.
21:31:36 <andy_> yes it was michael
21:31:38 <jasonjgw> Michael returns us to the inverted colours comments.
21:31:45 <andy_> ok
21:32:13 <andy_> the two things about inverted colours are
21:32:24 <andy_> 1. is the setting true
21:32:34 <andy_> 2. has the device done something
21:32:48 <jasonjgw> James suggests that the comments can be handled by distinguishing inverted colours from, e.g., light on dark which is a preference rather than a setting.
21:32:50 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to clarify difference between "preference" and "state setting"; adopt naming convention of keys
21:32:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-45 - Clarify difference between "preference" and "state setting"; adopt naming convention of keys [on James Craig - due 2013-03-27].
21:32:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
21:33:06 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath
21:33:32 <Zakim> +??P1
21:33:38 <andy_> me back
21:33:38 <jasonjgw> He clarifies: proposal is a boolean; true = light on dark, false the opposite, and null value for no preference.
21:33:47 <jcraig> Zakim, P1 is Andy_Heath
21:33:47 <Zakim> sorry, jcraig, I do not recognize a party named 'P1'
21:33:54 <andy_> AAAAAArghhhhhh!!!! its hotel intornet
21:34:02 <jcraig> Zakim, ??P1 is Andy_Heath
21:34:02 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
21:34:14 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath
21:34:28 <Zakim> +??P1
21:34:31 <jasonjgw> Discussion of comments on font sizes, where it isn't possible to choose a font size that is consistent on all devices.
21:34:54 <andy_> Zakim, ??P1 is Andy_Heath
21:34:54 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
21:34:54 <andy_> [9:34pm]
21:35:01 <jasonjgw> Rich suggests a small/medium/large classification which can then be mapped to different fonts for different devices.
21:35:49 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath
21:36:05 <MichaelC> q+
21:36:09 <MichaelC> ack r
21:36:43 <Zakim> +??P1
21:36:46 <andy_> Zakim, ??P1 is Andy_Heath
21:36:48 <MichaelC> ack me
21:37:00 <jasonjgw> James clarifies his proposal to connect font sizes to CSS pixel values, which, Michael notes, are not relative to a device according to current definitions.
21:37:00 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
21:38:10 <jasonjgw> There is discussion of priorities for the remainder of the call.
21:38:21 <andy_> I didn't get time to look at the value-pairs thing properly
21:38:42 <andy_> can we defer this to the next call to give me time to review it properly
21:39:14 <jasonjgw> Rich proposes to develop the system setting/user preference taxonomy off-line.
21:39:26 <jcraig> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#MediaAlternativeKeys
21:39:26 <MichaelC> topic: Auditory Keys https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/54997/2013-03-20/results#xq3
21:39:57 <jcraig> These are now "Media Alternative Settings" b/c they include audioDescription as well.
21:40:05 <jasonjgw> Michael: survey responses indicate the need for a "sign language" language preference.
21:40:31 <MichaelC> ack j
21:41:50 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add preference for signLanguageDialect (preferred list of ISO-specced lang codes: ASL, etc)
21:41:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-46 - Add preference for signLanguageDialect (preferred list of ISO-specced lang codes: ASL, etc) [on James Craig - due 2013-03-27].
21:42:28 <jasonjgw> Michael suggests referring to another spec for language codes.
21:42:37 <andy_> CoveringForJason: would rather specify "language code according to standard X" and not give the detail
21:42:55 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
21:43:44 <jasonjgw> James and Michael discuss ISO specifications and what the appropriate reference should be (for the language codes).
21:44:09 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to change ISO-639 and ISO-3166 to BCP 47 http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/bcp/bcp47.txt
21:44:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Change ISO-639 and ISO-3166 to BCP 47 http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/bcp/bcp47.txt [on James Craig - due 2013-03-27].
21:44:26 <jcraig> q+ to discuss caption versus subtitle
21:44:41 <jcraig> ack j
21:44:42 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss caption versus subtitle
21:44:44 <jasonjgw> Rich suggests using the term "captions" rather than "subtitles", in line with related standards/specifications.
21:45:28 <andy_> they are used by different camps of people
21:46:05 <jasonjgw> James clarifies: subtitles include foreign language subtitles as well as open and closed captions. Sometimes, only captions for one language can appear in a single media file. The purpose of designating them as "subtitles" in the spec is to be more inclusive.
21:46:13 <andy_> if this argument is valid so subtitles is better we should disseminate this to the other groups
21:46:39 <jasonjgw> Rich suggests explaining this use of vocabulary, as it departs from other accessibility-related specifications in this respect.
21:47:05 <jasonjgw> James offers to clarify.
21:47:26 <Zakim> + +1.703.861.aacc
21:47:29 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to clarify reason for using "subtitle" superset term as opposed to "captions" subset
21:47:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Clarify reason for using "subtitle" superset term as opposed to "captions" subset [on James Craig - due 2013-03-27].
21:49:02 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #indie-ui
21:49:08 <MichaelC> zakim, aacc is Katie_Haritos-Shea
21:49:08 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea; got it
21:50:25 <andy_> @Katie In a future version there may be lots of properties like that
21:50:36 <jasonjgw> Katie notes that the sign language preferences do and should allow avatars and video of human signing to be provided in satisfaction of the preference.
21:50:37 <MichaelC> topic: Pan, rotation, move, and zoom request events https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/54997/2013-03-20/results#xq4
21:52:12 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath
21:53:48 <jasonjgw> Michael proposes to take one of his comments off-line as it may have been entered under the wrong item.
21:53:55 <Zakim> +??P1
21:54:29 <andy_> Guys - when the survey came around I didn't understand the context of it - I thought it was beyond the group participants
21:54:59 <jcraig> UIManipulationRequests: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-events.html#UIManipulationRequestEvent
21:56:07 <MichaelC> topic: Format of User Context properties https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/54997/2013-03-20/results#xq5
21:56:45 <andy_> Guys - I didn't do the survey because I didn't understand the context of it - I may have some comments still to make
21:58:01 <jasonjgw> James notes the option to invoke an external taxonomy for more detailed preferences not representable in the vocabulary defined by the spec itself.
21:58:18 <andy_> That's not the purpose of them
21:58:42 <andy_> q+
21:58:53 <MichaelC> topic: Use cases for identifying AT https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/54997/2013-03-20/results#xq6
21:59:04 <jcraig> ISSUE: discuss "prefers big click targets"
21:59:05 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-11 - Discuss "prefers big click targets"; please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/issues/11/edit>.
21:59:52 <jasonjgw> Michael proposes to take the "use cases for identifying AT" topic to the requirement/use case analysis, which is to take place anyway.
21:59:55 <Zakim> -hober
22:00:46 <andy_> I KNOW NOW
22:01:06 <andy_> So please don't close all these off
22:01:13 <andy_> :-)
22:01:19 <andy_> ok
22:01:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> not making decisions about the survey
22:01:29 <andy_> sorry about my crap sound
22:01:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> np
22:01:36 <Ryladog> np
22:01:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> where are you btw?
22:01:41 <andy_> ty
22:01:41 <andy_> paris
22:01:53 <andy_> yes
22:02:18 <jasonjgw> Michael clarifies in response to a question from Andy that the survey was created simply to collect comments to be brought to the meeting; any survey used for decision-making will be identified as such very prominently.
22:02:33 <andy_> Thankyou Michael
22:03:25 <jasonjgw> James clarifies that it is not intended to reveal the use of an AT to a Web application without the user's consent.
22:04:05 <jasonjgw> Michael closes the meeting, noting the April 3 next meeting.
22:04:08 <Zakim> -[Apple]
22:04:09 <andy_> bye, thankyou
22:04:09 <Zakim> -Rich.a
22:04:10 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
22:04:12 <Zakim> -Rich_Simpson
22:04:23 <MichaelC> zakim, list attendees
22:04:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Janina_Sajka, Jason_White, Michael_Cooper, +1.412.901.aaaa, Rich_Simpson, Andy_Heath, +1.408.423.aabb, hober, Rich, jcraig,
22:04:25 <jasonjgw> rrsagent, make minutes
22:04:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-indie-ui-minutes.html jasonjgw
22:04:27 <Zakim> ... +1.703.861.aacc, Katie_Haritos-Shea
22:05:01 <jcraig> jcraig has left #indie-ui
22:05:17 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
22:05:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-indie-ui-minutes.html MichaelC
22:07:03 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
22:07:05 <Zakim> -??P1
22:07:05 <Zakim> -Jason_White
22:07:05 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()5:00PM has ended
22:07:05 <Zakim> Attendees were Janina_Sajka, Jason_White, Michael_Cooper, +1.412.901.aaaa, Rich_Simpson, Andy_Heath, +1.408.423.aabb, hober, Rich, jcraig, +1.703.861.aacc, Katie_Haritos-Shea